<!--quoteo(post=1971434:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:11 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Straight from the horses mouth of a fade admitting to 80-7 games. I read your post I am not ignoring it but it becomes rather anecdotal when you tell us you are one of the fades I am talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't know what the word "anecdote" means.
An anecdote is a small, personal story. If I told you about a time I went somewhere and some things happened and then I went home, that would be an anecdote.
Because of the way human brains work, we tend to give these little stories more weight than they really deserve when we're coming to decisions. In most cases, and certainly when trying to make game design decisions, we should really concentrate on things like falsifiable claims and quantitative data. Instead, we listen to personal stories and reach decisions as if our personal experiences were more important than they are.
Your entire position is based on your own personal anecdotes and your interpretations of them, without any real data.
This is why previously I said things like "it would be nice to see the total resources harvested by either team".
You also have made a central claim that it's too easy for a fade to be good and get a lot of kills and swing the tide of the game on their own, which is why I challenged you to do it yourself.
Like the person I played with earlier today that claimed that it was too easy to play a marine vs. skulks: if it's really that easy, then you should be able to succeed at it. If it's not easy - if in fact it's difficult - then you would have to make a <b>very</b> good argument as to why a skilled player using a 50 res lifeform shouldn't be powerful. You have as yet advanced no such argument (nor, I would say, does such an argument exist).
p.s.: he's not "admitting" anything. He's making a statement that he's reached a certain degree of skill to give his opinions some heft.
<!--quoteo(post=1971438:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:14 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 10:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you actually read my post then? Because if you had you might notice the parts where I mention that my team still loses despite my meaningless KDR.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me remind you that for the majority of people this is not a sport but a game, and games are meant to be fun. The fact that an 80-7 kdr is possible by someone short of god like skillz is a problem in itself, regardless whether it results in a win or loss. For the simple above reason that games are meant to be fun, and being murdered 80 times over by the same ###### and not managing to kill him more than one or two times (when his fade) is not only not fun but probably downright enraging for a good proportion of the games players (I know it would piss me off!).
<!--quoteo(post=1971448:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:21 PM:name=paella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paella @ Sep 4 2012, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't know what the word "anecdote" means.
An anecdote is a small, personal story. If I told you about a time I went somewhere and some things happened and then I went home, that would be an anecdote.
Because of the way human brains work, we tend to give these little stories more weight than they really deserve when we're coming to decisions. In most cases, and certainly when trying to make game design decisions, we should really concentrate on things like falsifiable claims and quantitative data. Instead, we listen to personal stories and reach decisions as if our personal experiences were more important than they are.
Your entire position is based on your own personal anecdotes and your interpretations of them, without any real data.
This is why previously I said things like "it would be nice to see the total resources harvested by either team".
You also have made a central claim that it's too easy for a fade to be good and get a lot of kills and swing the tide of the game on their own, which is why I challenged you to do it yourself.
Like the person I played with earlier today that claimed that it was too easy to play a marine vs. skulks: if it's really that easy, then you should be able to succeed at it. If it's not easy - if in fact it's difficult - then you would have to make a <b>very</b> good argument as to why a skilled player using a 50 res lifeform shouldn't be powerful. You have as yet advanced no such argument (nor, I would say, does such an argument exist).
p.s.: he's not "admitting" anything. He's making a statement that he's reached a certain degree of skill to give his opinions some heft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
eh I know what an anecdote means. I said that to him because he tells the story from his perspective. You accuse me of coloring my storys to make my position look good He just colored his to make the fades position look good. The only difference is he put in the exact evidence I am talking about. 80-7 fades lol yea...
<!--quoteo(post=1971450:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:23 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Sep 4 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me remind you that for the majority of people this is not a sport but a game, and games are meant to be fun. The fact that an 80-7 kdr is possible by someone short of god like skillz is a problem in itself, regardless whether it results in a win or loss. For the simple above reason that games are meant to be fun, and being murdered 80 times over by the same ###### and not managing to kill him more than one or two times (when his fade) is not only not fun but probably downright enraging for a good proportion of the games players (I know it would piss me off!).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "I don't like dying to skilled players so lets NERF ALL THE GOOD PLAYERS!!"
<!--quoteo(post=1971450:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:23 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Sep 4 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me remind you that for the majority of people<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another useless/baseless claim. Can we close this thread already?
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1971450:date=Sep 5 2012, 04:23 AM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Sep 5 2012, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me remind you that for the majority of people this is not a sport but a game, and games are meant to be fun. The fact that an 80-7 kdr is possible by someone short of god like skillz is a problem in itself, regardless whether it results in a win or loss. For the simple above reason that games are meant to be fun, and being murdered 80 times over by the same ###### and not managing to kill him more than one or two times (when his fade) is not only not fun but probably downright enraging for a good proportion of the games players (I know it would piss me off!).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you are looking for a game that does not scale with skill at all, then NS2 is just simply not your game.
Edit: To expand on this: It is not just my opinion that NS2 is a competitive game, <b>the developers themselves want it to be an eSports title</b>. A game where skill doesn't matter is by definition not competitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1971454:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:26 PM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Sep 4 2012, 09:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"I don't like dying to skilled players so lets NERF ALL THE GOOD PLAYERS!!"
Another useless/baseless claim. Can we close this thread already?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
now this is trolling, someone else comes into the thread with the same opinion as me so hes whining about "good" players.
These so called good players are just a "stacked class"
<!--quoteo(post=1971456:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:27 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Sep 4 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you are looking for a game that does not scale with skill at all, then NS2 is just simply not your game.
Edit: To expand on this: It is not just my opinion that NS2 is a competitive game, <b>the developers themselves want it to be an eSports title</b>. A game where skill doesn't matter is by definition not competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one is saying "skill shouldn't matter" At least i am not. I am saying the fade class has at its disposal too many overpowered abilities, which make it too easy for skilled players to abuse and exploit the class as a whole.
As dominator puts it the skill multiplier of the class is too high.
<!--quoteo(post=1971456:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:27 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Sep 4 2012, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you are looking for a game that does not scale with skill at all, then NS2 is just simply not your game.
Edit: To expand on this: It is not just my opinion that NS2 is a competitive game, <b>the developers themselves want it to be an eSports title</b>. A game where skill doesn't matter is by definition not competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Edit: Now you a simply jumping to conclusions I never claimed skill should not matter, in fact you would be very hard pressed to make a game deserving of the name where it does not. Besides, even an esport game has to be fun and balanced for both comp and normal play, not just one or the other as some people seem happy to do.
Do not patronize me. It is not a question of scaling with skill but a question of skill multipliers, namely that the fade might be too high a multiplier to the point where you do not even have to be all that good to do disproportionately well with a fade (much better than with any other weapon or lifeform in the game). Also keep in mind that while a mad OP fade was all well and good in NS1 this is NS2, and both lifeforms and weapons tend to get deployed in much higher numbers than the prequel. Frankly the only people at the moment who can speak on this issue (or for that matter on most balance issues) are the comp players who have actually played games where all the players have had a certain minimum proficiency and the teams are relatively balanced skill wise.
<!--quoteo(post=1971454:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:26 PM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Sep 4 2012, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"I don't like dying to skilled players so lets NERF ALL THE GOOD PLAYERS!!"
Another useless/baseless claim. Can we close this thread already?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you deny that most people play games to have fun?
<!--quoteo(post=1971453:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:26 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->eh I know what an anecdote means. I said that to him because he tells the story from his perspective. You accuse me of coloring my storys to make my posistion look good He just colored his to make the fades position look good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that was <i>my</i> point to you. My Anecdote that Super Fades don't win games is just as valid as your anecdote that they do. So who's right? The reality is that neither of us are because its an <i>anecdote</i>.
To Dominator: I donno if they found it frustrating, I tend to find it frustrating too. But I'll tell you that it feels all the more gratifying when I, or someone else does finally kill that one uber player. And I find winning despite overwhelming odds incredibly gratifying as well.
Good games are more than just 1v1 match ups, this game certainly is. KDR is absolutely meaningless in the face of good strategy and coordination, if you don't believe that, and you think its a weak argument then you honestly don't understand this game as well as you think you do.
Could the Fade use some work? Sure. The <i>game</i> could use some work. But to baselessly claim that Fades are OP because you got "unlucky," is just silly.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying your argument is fundamentally flawed. On what grounds, <i>besides</i> your own person opinions, can you claim that the Fade is OP?
If you have trouble with that, then you need to rethink your position.
<!--quoteo(post=1971457:date=Sep 5 2012, 04:28 AM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 5 2012, 04:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->now this is trolling, someone else comes into the thread with the same opinion as me so hes whining about "good" players.
These so called good players are just a "stacked class"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fade is the main killing class for the aliens. This is not Battlefield 3 where all classes need to be able to achieve the same k/d ratio.
NS2 is a team game, and it is balanced around team play.
<!--quoteo(post=1971470:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:42 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Sep 4 2012, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade is the main killing class for the aliens. This is not Battlefield 3 where all classes need to be able to achieve the same k/d ratio.
NS2 is a team game, and it is balanced around team play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
You know when a Fade is truly unkillable? When its backed up by 5 skulks and a gorge rushing your base. Alone, they're just annoying, but (as has been pointed out) Fades cant actually do any meaningful structural damage. But a coordinated team supporting even a couple average Fades will ruin your day. Its the team, not the player, that makes the difference.
<!--quoteo(post=1971470:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:42 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Sep 4 2012, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade is the main killing class for the aliens. This is not Battlefield 3 where all classes need to be able to achieve the same k/d ratio.
NS2 is a team game, and it is balanced around team play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that is a good point. However all the alien classes (except gorge) have killing the enemy as an important part of their role, the fade might simply be too good at it especially if theyre deployed in number (a near guarantee with ns2's res system).
You know when a Fade is truly unkillable? When its backed up by 5 skulks and a gorge rushing your base. Alone, they're just annoying, but (as has been pointed out) Fades cant actually do any meaningful structural damage. But a coordinated team supporting even a couple average Fades will ruin your day. Its the team, not the player, that makes the difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would hardly say that, they're not that slower than skulks at killing buildings.
<!--quoteo(post=1971469:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:41 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, that was <i>my</i> point to you. My Anecdote that Super Fades don't win games is just as valid as your anecdote that they do. So who's right? The reality is that neither of us are because its an <i>anecdote</i>.
To Dominator: I donno if they found it frustrating, I tend to find it frustrating too. But I'll tell you that it feels all the more gratifying when I, or someone else does finally kill that one uber player. And I find winning despite overwhelming odds incredibly gratifying as well.
Good games are more than just 1v1 match ups, this game certainly is. KDR is absolutely meaningless in the face of good strategy and coordination, if you don't believe that, and you think its a weak argument then you honestly don't understand this game as well as you think you do.
Could the Fade use some work? Sure. The <i>game</i> could use some work. But to baselessly claim that Fades are OP because you got "unlucky," is just silly.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying your argument is fundamentally flawed. On what grounds, <i>besides</i> your own person opinions, can you claim that the Fade is OP?
If you have trouble with that, then you need to rethink your position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The crux of your point seems to me that even with a high KDR you can lose. But would you not deny that two teams with roughly identical strategic abilities but with vastly different average KDR totals have identical chances of winning? The fact that you cant win with a good KDR alone is obviously true, its not a deathmatch. But that a player with a large KDR is a huge asset to his team is I think fairly undeniable.
And I will admit that killing that one player (or winning the game) is extremely satisfying. But I at least find that scant compensation for all the times we dont kill the player (or do and he refades) or the times we get steamrolled (I find that in situations such as the above this is the far more likely outcome).
<!--quoteo(post=1971470:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:42 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Sep 4 2012, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade is the main killing class for the aliens. This is not Battlefield 3 where all classes need to be able to achieve the same k/d ratio.
NS2 is a team game, and it is balanced around team play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So do you think a 140-8 kd is legit? and what kd do you think fades should have?
I have no assumptions that the marines should have the same.
But as a whole on an evenly matched skill wise game shouldn't the overall K:D be around the same for all players combined? <-- this would indicate a fairly balanced system within the game. So why does the fade stick out like a sore thumb
<!--quoteo(post=1971476:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:46 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Sep 4 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The crux of your point seems to me that KDR makes little difference in whether you win or lose. So you would agree that two teams with roughly identical strategic abilities but with vastly different average KDR totals have identical chances of winning? The fact that you cant win with a good KDR alone is obviously true, its not a deathmatch. But the fact is that a player with a large KDR is a huge asset to his team is I think fairly undeniable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1971476:date=Sep 4 2012, 07:46 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Sep 4 2012, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now that is a good point. However all the alien classes (except gorge) have killing the enemy as an important part of their role, the fade might simply be too good at it especially if theyre deployed in number (a near guarantee with ns2's res system).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not especially. Were talking about combat (marine vs lifeform). Onos can kill, but base killing (power nodes) are his biggest team contribution. Late game lerk is gasing/ubra for kills and team defense. They play more of a support, rather than the assassin they play early game.. Skulks are combat, but also very good hit and run at RTs. Fades are so so at killing rts, and until adrenaline it takes up all of their energy swiping. Their piercing damage and mobility just makes them the ideal attacker if you're trying to go toe to toe with marine players.
the fade has a low skill ceiling, case and point <<< even im really good with the fade and a hardly ever play fade as i play skulk mostly. All these idiots defending the current OP fade are the same idiots we see in all the other games who defend the IWIN buttons. They are scared to death of losing their cheap "leet" status and actually having to work at acquiring real skill
Fast Fade swipe spam means theres no skill involved in actually hitting your targets and theres no penalty for missing a swipe. Im sorry but if your so bad that i can actually dodge your fade swipes 3 times (no shotgun T_T)... with the current crappy movement system ... then you are a horrible fade and should actually either die or run away and reflect on your lack of skill. Yet that isnt the case, you can swipe away non stop and eventually kill me after ive so skillfully dodged you 3 times ... and then you can have the nerve to think that you are actually good at this game.
<!--quoteo(post=1971478:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:51 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So do you think a 140-8 kd is legit? and what kd do you think fades should have?
I have no assumptions that the marines should have the same.
But as a whole on an evenly matched skill wise game shouldn't the overall K:D be around the same for all players combined? <-- this would indicate a fairly balanced system within the game. So why does the fade stick out like a sore thumb
<!--quoteo(post=1971500:date=Sep 4 2012, 11:15 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point is also undeniable, but you have yet to actually address it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you restate it for those of us who were late? I dont care to sort through 5 pages of posts.
<!--quoteo(post=1971496:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:11 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Sep 4 2012, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, the fade has a low skill ceiling, and that is why we have to nerf him more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But... but DON'T use the "n" word!!! People will get scared. Then flames start. :(
Anyway, I do think two things need to be done to the Fade. -slow his swipe rate of fire -make him easier to "catch"
On that second one, fades just get away too easily. I think they should have a larger collision box with other players, if not all geometry.
Two things that will never help fades be more kill-able are removing shadow step and raising energy costs on blink. Why? Hold forward, tap jump, and tap blink while you're still rising from the jump. Behold the crazy momentum, and understand why I NEVER run out of energy, and never need to use shadow step. Throw in some vertical movement and enjoy.
<!--quoteo(post=1971500:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:15 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point is also undeniable, but you have yet to actually address it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I addressed your point hours ago, your story if you hold it to be true merely proves my point about 80-7 fades your a mediocre one by all accounts you hardly come close to beating the 140-8 fade.
I am fine with you telling your story and holding it as truth but in doing so you only prove my point further by providing your word as testimony to the outrageous numbers fades can achieve. The fact that you lost doesn't disprove what i am saying it only goes to show that sometimes the marines can overcome one op fade in the game. How much sooner do you think the marines would have won without you in the server? I would bet 80 lives sooner.
<!--quoteo(post=1971503:date=Sep 4 2012, 11:22 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Sep 4 2012, 11:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could you restate it for those of us who were late? I dont care to sort through 5 pages of posts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point was that even if you and Sherwood are right (and you might not have noticed that I never actually disagreed with you), your entire argument is based on faulty logic and needs to be re-examined.
You're trying to justify your position with anecdotes and nothing more. The closest either of you have come to a meaningful argument is when Sherwood commented about how much res a Fade with 80 kills has cost the marine team. But (for starters) his assessment neglects that all marine weapons can be recycled on death. The only things that cant be are mines, jet packs, and Exos. Secondly, he's only analyzing one side of the equation. If you're going to start talking about theoretical res costs due to kills, then you have to look at both teams, and all players, not just the ones with a high KDR.
My point, has always been that it is foolish to base a balance discussion on nothing more than anecdotes. If you want to be taken seriously, you need facts independent of your opinions.
<!--quoteo(post=1971507:date=Sep 4 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I addressed your point hours ago, your story if you hold it to be true merely proves my point about 80-7 fades your a mediocre one by all accounts you hardly come close to beating the 140-8 fade.
I am fine with you telling your story and holding it as truth but in doing so you only prove my point further by providing your word as testimony to the outrageous numbers fades can achieve. The fact that you lost doesn't disprove what i am saying it only goes to show that sometimes the marines can overcome one op fade in the game. How much sooner do you think the marines would have won without you in the server? I would bet 80 lives sooner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hah, no one expects it to be an issue for you! Or at least no one who has seen you play marines...
<!--quoteo(post=1971513:date=Sep 4 2012, 11:29 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point was that even if you and Sherwood are right (and you might not have noticed that I never actually disagreed with you), your entire argument is based on faulty logic and needs to be re-examined.
You're trying to justify your position with anecdotes and nothing more. The closest either of you have come to a meaningful argument is when Sherwood commented about how much res a Fade with 80 kills has cost the marine team. But (for starters) his assessment neglects that all marine weapons can be recycled on death. The only things that cant be are mines, jet packs, and Exos. Secondly, he's only analyzing one side of the equation. If you're going to start talking about theoretical res costs due to kills, then you have to look at both teams, and all players, not just the ones with a high KDR.
My point, has always been that it is foolish to base a balance discussion on nothing more than anecdotes. If you want to be taken seriously, you need facts independent of your opinions.
Thats not just good form, its good research.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I must say I am disappointed. I was expecting something more than 'Your arguments are based on experience playing the game and therefore are invalid'. But suit yourself, this thread was not started to convince you but to bring the subject up for discussion. Judging by the page count it has been fairly successful, even if most of it is people trying to prove each other wrong rather than make any sort of constructive headway on the question. I guess it is too much to expect a little bit of trust and leeway in discussions. In any case my limited attention span has ran out so, adieu.
8 pages of anecdotal pub KDR. I've been watching this thread all day and it's just gotten worse and worse. I've gone 130-5 with shotgun/jp. I've also gone 30-0 early game with lmg. Want to know how? Playing against noobs on pubs. This thread is ridiculous.
ahh yes the age old /thread typed out to look like the end of an html code since you say it then it must be so. The facts are plain to see even in an anecdotal story, people have posted the simple facts of fades abilities, we have confirmed results of there abilities by you and others in this thread.
No one including you seems to argue any of those points which are the facts. You simply argue that my personal side of the argument is flawed because I don't have a spreadsheet on here showing the sharp decline in skill needed to play a fade vs other class's of the game. Nor a complete listing of each fade and his max kill/min death ratios to show you incontrovertible evidence. But pretty much all of us in this thread who see the issue have also experienced the issue both on the side of the aliens and against the aliens.
When I am on the alien team and there is one of these fades in the game its boring. Every kill is taken I don't get any, the team as a whole just shifts into attacking buildings because there are no marines to fight.
honestly A game should never reach the point where the fun that should be there is missing simply because one of its class's is unbalanced.
I am going to bed, I am sure the fade masters will all hop on agree with each other and say they solved it nothing is wrong with fades they will say and force the thread to close. lol let them, I would love to see them justify it without resorting to the standard trolling or saying the server was full of noobs.
Let's have them provide a video of there 130-5 jetpack shotgun run like GORGEous who has literally been trolling the entire thread. I would love to see a video bud I want to see the entire thing of you going 130-5.
<!--quoteo(post=1971547:date=Sep 4 2012, 11:56 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ahh yes the age old /thread typed out to look like the end of an html code since you say it then it must be so. The facts are plain to see even in an anecdotal story, people have posted the simple facts of fades abilities, we have confirmed results of there abilities by you and others in this thread.
No one including you seems to argue any of those points which are the facts. You simply argue that my personal side of the argument is flawed because I don't have a spreadsheet on here showing the sharp decline in skill needed to play a fade vs other class's of the game. Nor a complete listing of each fade and his max kill/min death ratios to show you incontrovertible evidence. But pretty much all of us in this thread who see the issue have also experienced the issue both on the side of the aliens and against the aliens.
When I am on the alien team and there is one of these fades in the game its boring. Every kill is taken I don't get any, the team as a whole just shifts into attacking buildings because there are no marines to fight.
honestly A game should never reach the point where the fun that should be there is missing simply because one of its class's is unbalanced.
I am going to bed, I am sure the fade masters will all hop on agree with each other and say they solved it nothing is wrong with fades they will say and force the thread to close. lol let them, I would love to see them justify it without resorting to the standard trolling or saying the server was full of noobs.
Let's have them provide a video of there 130-5 jetpack shotgun run like GORGEous who has literally been trolling the entire thread. I would love to see a video bud I want to see the entire thing of you going 130-5.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1971003:date=Sep 4 2012, 02:00 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 02:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in an RTS when 5 units attack 5 units 3-4 of either side will die, and one side will lose everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This tells me you're extremely bad at RTS, to the point of not even understanding the basic concepts. I'm going to assume by the rest of your post that you're bad at NS2 (regardless of how long you've been playing either NS1 or 2).
In public servers, good players are imbalanced. It's a public server, almost by definition you have more crappy players than you can shake a stick at. This issue will never be fixed while retaining a good game that is balanced for competitive play. You can't balance a game for pubs, balancing it for evenly matched teams is all you can hope for.
Crappy players get raped when they go fade. Fades are fine. As frame rates continue to improve (particularly towards the end of the round), I think you will find even the better players less effective.
Comments
You don't know what the word "anecdote" means.
An anecdote is a small, personal story. If I told you about a time I went somewhere and some things happened and then I went home, that would be an anecdote.
Because of the way human brains work, we tend to give these little stories more weight than they really deserve when we're coming to decisions. In most cases, and certainly when trying to make game design decisions, we should really concentrate on things like falsifiable claims and quantitative data. Instead, we listen to personal stories and reach decisions as if our personal experiences were more important than they are.
Your entire position is based on your own personal anecdotes and your interpretations of them, without any real data.
This is why previously I said things like "it would be nice to see the total resources harvested by either team".
You also have made a central claim that it's too easy for a fade to be good and get a lot of kills and swing the tide of the game on their own, which is why I challenged you to do it yourself.
Like the person I played with earlier today that claimed that it was too easy to play a marine vs. skulks: if it's really that easy, then you should be able to succeed at it. If it's not easy - if in fact it's difficult - then you would have to make a <b>very</b> good argument as to why a skilled player using a 50 res lifeform shouldn't be powerful. You have as yet advanced no such argument (nor, I would say, does such an argument exist).
p.s.: he's not "admitting" anything. He's making a statement that he's reached a certain degree of skill to give his opinions some heft.
Let me remind you that for the majority of people this is not a sport but a game, and games are meant to be fun. The fact that an 80-7 kdr is possible by someone short of god like skillz is a problem in itself, regardless whether it results in a win or loss. For the simple above reason that games are meant to be fun, and being murdered 80 times over by the same ###### and not managing to kill him more than one or two times (when his fade) is not only not fun but probably downright enraging for a good proportion of the games players (I know it would piss me off!).
An anecdote is a small, personal story. If I told you about a time I went somewhere and some things happened and then I went home, that would be an anecdote.
Because of the way human brains work, we tend to give these little stories more weight than they really deserve when we're coming to decisions. In most cases, and certainly when trying to make game design decisions, we should really concentrate on things like falsifiable claims and quantitative data. Instead, we listen to personal stories and reach decisions as if our personal experiences were more important than they are.
Your entire position is based on your own personal anecdotes and your interpretations of them, without any real data.
This is why previously I said things like "it would be nice to see the total resources harvested by either team".
You also have made a central claim that it's too easy for a fade to be good and get a lot of kills and swing the tide of the game on their own, which is why I challenged you to do it yourself.
Like the person I played with earlier today that claimed that it was too easy to play a marine vs. skulks: if it's really that easy, then you should be able to succeed at it. If it's not easy - if in fact it's difficult - then you would have to make a <b>very</b> good argument as to why a skilled player using a 50 res lifeform shouldn't be powerful. You have as yet advanced no such argument (nor, I would say, does such an argument exist).
p.s.: he's not "admitting" anything. He's making a statement that he's reached a certain degree of skill to give his opinions some heft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
eh I know what an anecdote means. I said that to him because he tells the story from his perspective. You accuse me of coloring my storys to make my position look good He just colored his to make the fades position look good. The only difference is he put in the exact evidence I am talking about. 80-7 fades lol yea...
"I don't like dying to skilled players so lets NERF ALL THE GOOD PLAYERS!!"
<!--quoteo(post=1971450:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:23 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Sep 4 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me remind you that for the majority of people<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another useless/baseless claim. Can we close this thread already?
If you are looking for a game that does not scale with skill at all, then NS2 is just simply not your game.
Edit: To expand on this: It is not just my opinion that NS2 is a competitive game, <b>the developers themselves want it to be an eSports title</b>. A game where skill doesn't matter is by definition not competitive.
Another useless/baseless claim. Can we close this thread already?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
now this is trolling, someone else comes into the thread with the same opinion as me so hes whining about "good" players.
These so called good players are just a "stacked class"
<!--quoteo(post=1971456:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:27 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Sep 4 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you are looking for a game that does not scale with skill at all, then NS2 is just simply not your game.
Edit: To expand on this: It is not just my opinion that NS2 is a competitive game, <b>the developers themselves want it to be an eSports title</b>. A game where skill doesn't matter is by definition not competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one is saying "skill shouldn't matter" At least i am not. I am saying the fade class has at its disposal too many overpowered abilities, which make it too easy for skilled players to abuse and exploit the class as a whole.
As dominator puts it the skill multiplier of the class is too high.
Edit: To expand on this: It is not just my opinion that NS2 is a competitive game, <b>the developers themselves want it to be an eSports title</b>. A game where skill doesn't matter is by definition not competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Edit: Now you a simply jumping to conclusions I never claimed skill should not matter, in fact you would be very hard pressed to make a game deserving of the name where it does not. Besides, even an esport game has to be fun and balanced for both comp and normal play, not just one or the other as some people seem happy to do.
Do not patronize me. It is not a question of scaling with skill but a question of skill multipliers, namely that the fade might be too high a multiplier to the point where you do not even have to be all that good to do disproportionately well with a fade (much better than with any other weapon or lifeform in the game). Also keep in mind that while a mad OP fade was all well and good in NS1 this is NS2, and both lifeforms and weapons tend to get deployed in much higher numbers than the prequel. Frankly the only people at the moment who can speak on this issue (or for that matter on most balance issues) are the comp players who have actually played games where all the players have had a certain minimum proficiency and the teams are relatively balanced skill wise.
<!--quoteo(post=1971454:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:26 PM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Sep 4 2012, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"I don't like dying to skilled players so lets NERF ALL THE GOOD PLAYERS!!"
Another useless/baseless claim. Can we close this thread already?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you deny that most people play games to have fun?
Actually, that was <i>my</i> point to you. My Anecdote that Super Fades don't win games is just as valid as your anecdote that they do. So who's right? The reality is that neither of us are because its an <i>anecdote</i>.
To Dominator: I donno if they found it frustrating, I tend to find it frustrating too. But I'll tell you that it feels all the more gratifying when I, or someone else does finally kill that one uber player. And I find winning despite overwhelming odds incredibly gratifying as well.
Good games are more than just 1v1 match ups, this game certainly is. KDR is absolutely meaningless in the face of good strategy and coordination, if you don't believe that, and you think its a weak argument then you honestly don't understand this game as well as you think you do.
Could the Fade use some work? Sure. The <i>game</i> could use some work. But to baselessly claim that Fades are OP because you got "unlucky," is just silly.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying your argument is fundamentally flawed. On what grounds, <i>besides</i> your own person opinions, can you claim that the Fade is OP?
If you have trouble with that, then you need to rethink your position.
These so called good players are just a "stacked class"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fade is the main killing class for the aliens. This is not Battlefield 3 where all classes need to be able to achieve the same k/d ratio.
NS2 is a team game, and it is balanced around team play.
NS2 is a team game, and it is balanced around team play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
You know when a Fade is truly unkillable? When its backed up by 5 skulks and a gorge rushing your base. Alone, they're just annoying, but (as has been pointed out) Fades cant actually do any meaningful structural damage. But a coordinated team supporting even a couple average Fades will ruin your day. Its the team, not the player, that makes the difference.
NS2 is a team game, and it is balanced around team play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that is a good point. However all the alien classes (except gorge) have killing the enemy as an important part of their role, the fade might simply be too good at it especially if theyre deployed in number (a near guarantee with ns2's res system).
<!--quoteo(post=1971474:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:45 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This.
You know when a Fade is truly unkillable? When its backed up by 5 skulks and a gorge rushing your base. Alone, they're just annoying, but (as has been pointed out) Fades cant actually do any meaningful structural damage. But a coordinated team supporting even a couple average Fades will ruin your day. Its the team, not the player, that makes the difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would hardly say that, they're not that slower than skulks at killing buildings.
<!--quoteo(post=1971469:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:41 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, that was <i>my</i> point to you. My Anecdote that Super Fades don't win games is just as valid as your anecdote that they do. So who's right? The reality is that neither of us are because its an <i>anecdote</i>.
To Dominator: I donno if they found it frustrating, I tend to find it frustrating too. But I'll tell you that it feels all the more gratifying when I, or someone else does finally kill that one uber player. And I find winning despite overwhelming odds incredibly gratifying as well.
Good games are more than just 1v1 match ups, this game certainly is. KDR is absolutely meaningless in the face of good strategy and coordination, if you don't believe that, and you think its a weak argument then you honestly don't understand this game as well as you think you do.
Could the Fade use some work? Sure. The <i>game</i> could use some work. But to baselessly claim that Fades are OP because you got "unlucky," is just silly.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying your argument is fundamentally flawed. On what grounds, <i>besides</i> your own person opinions, can you claim that the Fade is OP?
If you have trouble with that, then you need to rethink your position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The crux of your point seems to me that even with a high KDR you can lose. But would you not deny that two teams with roughly identical strategic abilities but with vastly different average KDR totals have identical chances of winning? The fact that you cant win with a good KDR alone is obviously true, its not a deathmatch. But that a player with a large KDR is a huge asset to his team is I think fairly undeniable.
And I will admit that killing that one player (or winning the game) is extremely satisfying. But I at least find that scant compensation for all the times we dont kill the player (or do and he refades) or the times we get steamrolled (I find that in situations such as the above this is the far more likely outcome).
NS2 is a team game, and it is balanced around team play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So do you think a 140-8 kd is legit? and what kd do you think fades should have?
I have no assumptions that the marines should have the same.
But as a whole on an evenly matched skill wise game shouldn't the overall K:D be around the same for all players combined? <-- this would indicate a fairly balanced system within the game. So why does the fade stick out like a sore thumb
<!--quoteo(post=1971476:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:46 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Sep 4 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The crux of your point seems to me that KDR makes little difference in whether you win or lose. So you would agree that two teams with roughly identical strategic abilities but with vastly different average KDR totals have identical chances of winning? The fact that you cant win with a good KDR alone is obviously true, its not a deathmatch. But the fact is that a player with a large KDR is a huge asset to his team is I think fairly undeniable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^
Fairly undeniable
Not especially. Were talking about combat (marine vs lifeform). Onos can kill, but base killing (power nodes) are his biggest team contribution. Late game lerk is gasing/ubra for kills and team defense. They play more of a support, rather than the assassin they play early game.. Skulks are combat, but also very good hit and run at RTs. Fades are so so at killing rts, and until adrenaline it takes up all of their energy swiping. Their piercing damage and mobility just makes them the ideal attacker if you're trying to go toe to toe with marine players.
the fade has a low skill ceiling, case and point <<< even im really good with the fade and a hardly ever play fade as i play skulk mostly. All these idiots defending the current OP fade are the same idiots we see in all the other games who defend the IWIN buttons. They are scared to death of losing their cheap "leet" status and actually having to work at acquiring real skill
Fast Fade swipe spam means theres no skill involved in actually hitting your targets and theres no penalty for missing a swipe. Im sorry but if your so bad that i can actually dodge your fade swipes 3 times (no shotgun T_T)... with the current crappy movement system ... then you are a horrible fade and should actually either die or run away and reflect on your lack of skill. Yet that isnt the case, you can swipe away non stop and eventually kill me after ive so skillfully dodged you 3 times ... and then you can have the nerve to think that you are actually good at this game.
I have no assumptions that the marines should have the same.
But as a whole on an evenly matched skill wise game shouldn't the overall K:D be around the same for all players combined? <-- this would indicate a fairly balanced system within the game. So why does the fade stick out like a sore thumb
^
Fairly undeniable<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point is also undeniable, but you have yet to actually address it.
Could you restate it for those of us who were late? I dont care to sort through 5 pages of posts.
But... but DON'T use the "n" word!!! People will get scared. Then flames start. :(
Anyway, I do think two things need to be done to the Fade.
-slow his swipe rate of fire
-make him easier to "catch"
On that second one, fades just get away too easily. I think they should have a larger collision box with other players, if not all geometry.
Two things that will never help fades be more kill-able are removing shadow step and raising energy costs on blink. Why? Hold forward, tap jump, and tap blink while you're still rising from the jump. Behold the crazy momentum, and understand why I NEVER run out of energy, and never need to use shadow step. Throw in some vertical movement and enjoy.
I addressed your point hours ago, your story if you hold it to be true merely proves my point about 80-7 fades your a mediocre one by all accounts you hardly come close to beating the 140-8 fade.
I am fine with you telling your story and holding it as truth but in doing so you only prove my point further by providing your word as testimony to the outrageous numbers fades can achieve. The fact that you lost doesn't disprove what i am saying it only goes to show that sometimes the marines can overcome one op fade in the game. How much sooner do you think the marines would have won without you in the server? I would bet 80 lives sooner.
My point was that even if you and Sherwood are right (and you might not have noticed that I never actually disagreed with you), your entire argument is based on faulty logic and needs to be re-examined.
You're trying to justify your position with anecdotes and nothing more. The closest either of you have come to a meaningful argument is when Sherwood commented about how much res a Fade with 80 kills has cost the marine team. But (for starters) his assessment neglects that all marine weapons can be recycled on death. The only things that cant be are mines, jet packs, and Exos. Secondly, he's only analyzing one side of the equation. If you're going to start talking about theoretical res costs due to kills, then you have to look at both teams, and all players, not just the ones with a high KDR.
My point, has always been that it is foolish to base a balance discussion on nothing more than anecdotes. If you want to be taken seriously, you need facts independent of your opinions.
Thats not just good form, its good research.
I am fine with you telling your story and holding it as truth but in doing so you only prove my point further by providing your word as testimony to the outrageous numbers fades can achieve. The fact that you lost doesn't disprove what i am saying it only goes to show that sometimes the marines can overcome one op fade in the game. How much sooner do you think the marines would have won without you in the server? I would bet 80 lives sooner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now I know you're trolling.
/thread
...really?
...really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hah, no one expects it to be an issue for you! Or at least no one who has seen you play marines...
<!--quoteo(post=1971513:date=Sep 4 2012, 11:29 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point was that even if you and Sherwood are right (and you might not have noticed that I never actually disagreed with you), your entire argument is based on faulty logic and needs to be re-examined.
You're trying to justify your position with anecdotes and nothing more. The closest either of you have come to a meaningful argument is when Sherwood commented about how much res a Fade with 80 kills has cost the marine team. But (for starters) his assessment neglects that all marine weapons can be recycled on death. The only things that cant be are mines, jet packs, and Exos. Secondly, he's only analyzing one side of the equation. If you're going to start talking about theoretical res costs due to kills, then you have to look at both teams, and all players, not just the ones with a high KDR.
My point, has always been that it is foolish to base a balance discussion on nothing more than anecdotes. If you want to be taken seriously, you need facts independent of your opinions.
Thats not just good form, its good research.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I must say I am disappointed. I was expecting something more than 'Your arguments are based on experience playing the game and therefore are invalid'. But suit yourself, this thread was not started to convince you but to bring the subject up for discussion. Judging by the page count it has been fairly successful, even if most of it is people trying to prove each other wrong rather than make any sort of constructive headway on the question. I guess it is too much to expect a little bit of trust and leeway in discussions. In any case my limited attention span has ran out so, adieu.
/thread<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ahh yes the age old /thread typed out to look like the end of an html code since you say it then it must be so.
The facts are plain to see even in an anecdotal story, people have posted the simple facts of fades abilities, we have confirmed results of there abilities by you and others in this thread.
No one including you seems to argue any of those points which are the facts. You simply argue that my personal side of the argument is flawed because I don't have a spreadsheet on here showing the sharp decline in skill needed to play a fade vs other class's of the game. Nor a complete listing of each fade and his max kill/min death ratios to show you incontrovertible evidence. But pretty much all of us in this thread who see the issue have also experienced the issue both on the side of the aliens and against the aliens.
When I am on the alien team and there is one of these fades in the game its boring. Every kill is taken I don't get any, the team as a whole just shifts into attacking buildings because there are no marines to fight.
honestly A game should never reach the point where the fun that should be there is missing simply because one of its class's is unbalanced.
I am going to bed, I am sure the fade masters will all hop on agree with each other and say they solved it nothing is wrong with fades they will say and force the thread to close. lol let them, I would love to see them justify it without resorting to the standard trolling or saying the server was full of noobs.
Let's have them provide a video of there 130-5 jetpack shotgun run like GORGEous who has literally been trolling the entire thread. I would love to see a video bud I want to see the entire thing of you going 130-5.
The facts are plain to see even in an anecdotal story, people have posted the simple facts of fades abilities, we have confirmed results of there abilities by you and others in this thread.
No one including you seems to argue any of those points which are the facts. You simply argue that my personal side of the argument is flawed because I don't have a spreadsheet on here showing the sharp decline in skill needed to play a fade vs other class's of the game. Nor a complete listing of each fade and his max kill/min death ratios to show you incontrovertible evidence. But pretty much all of us in this thread who see the issue have also experienced the issue both on the side of the aliens and against the aliens.
When I am on the alien team and there is one of these fades in the game its boring. Every kill is taken I don't get any, the team as a whole just shifts into attacking buildings because there are no marines to fight.
honestly A game should never reach the point where the fun that should be there is missing simply because one of its class's is unbalanced.
I am going to bed, I am sure the fade masters will all hop on agree with each other and say they solved it nothing is wrong with fades they will say and force the thread to close. lol let them, I would love to see them justify it without resorting to the standard trolling or saying the server was full of noobs.
Let's have them provide a video of there 130-5 jetpack shotgun run like GORGEous who has literally been trolling the entire thread. I would love to see a video bud I want to see the entire thing of you going 130-5.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've missed the entire point.
'tis the sad life of a player who isn't filled with rage.
This tells me you're extremely bad at RTS, to the point of not even understanding the basic concepts. I'm going to assume by the rest of your post that you're bad at NS2 (regardless of how long you've been playing either NS1 or 2).
In public servers, good players are imbalanced. It's a public server, almost by definition you have more crappy players than you can shake a stick at. This issue will never be fixed while retaining a good game that is balanced for competitive play. You can't balance a game for pubs, balancing it for evenly matched teams is all you can hope for.
Crappy players get raped when they go fade. Fades are fine. As frame rates continue to improve (particularly towards the end of the round), I think you will find even the better players less effective.