It's hard to believe but there hasn't ever been a balance-team for NS2. Charlie has made all the decisions himself, picking and choosing the feedback he wants from where he wants and there isn't anywhere good to pick from, really.
The forums are pisspot of terrible ideas all thrown into a bunch of repeating threads. Very well thought out suggestions get drowned out by incredibly stupid ones, criticism is constantly criticised and ideas are repeated ad infinitum because there is little feedback returned by credible individuals. I don't really blame UWE for not relying on the forums because disseminating the good information from the bad is difficult, especially if/when UWE don't know who or what is good themselves.
The playtester team is ill-equipped (on average) to make any great suggestions on balance because they don't have the qualifications for it. Many are inexperienced, have weak grasps on game design, love/fear UWE too much or play the current build too little. While I have respect for many of the members and enjoyed my time there, my biggest concern was with the large volumes of bad advice being given. It would be ok if they truly were bugtesters as often touted but the fact remains that they were (are?) Charlie's first port of call for many queries. I have begun to notice more qualified players joining the ranks (good job, Obraxis) but the acceptable standard is still way below par when it comes to solid gameplay intuition or experience. I'd love to see more puzls and tankefugls leading the way and I still feel the loss of Jiriki's influence in the playtester team.
At this point, so ridiculously close to release, there really needs to be a quality balance team formed and it needs to be respected and endorsed by UWE and it needs to be given real responsibility. No mortal man can make all the right calls himself and that especially goes for someone who doesn't play games in general, let alone his own one, so that torch should be passed over now that we are feature complete. I actually think this should have happened a long time ago. There are plenty of dedicated and clever players who have the skill for it and it should be really obvious who those people are. Just look at people like Yuuki, Grissi, Fana, Bacillus, elodea, eh?, GORGEous, rantology, elmo, just to name a few and you already have a really eclectic team of people who are well-equipped to give good advice and who come from a variety of backgrounds (in fact, only one of which came from top level NS1).
--
As for strategy, I have to agree with fmpone that not enough respect has been shown to the process through which NS1 has grown. I remember seeing/hearing Charlie talk about NS1 quite negatively and, to be honest, without much understanding (except at entry level, where I concede) and I knew then that NS2 was going to take too many turnings and lose its way. I also agree with Whee that a good game doesn't include every cool idea under the sun but rather takes a few and does them well.
That said, the Natural Selection concept is so good and so original, that it will always be a good game by virtue of it's niche genre. I hope it does well.
There <i>was</i> a sort of balance team a few months ago but it was community made - as in some concerned players made a decent group and planned to make suggestions that Hugh would carry over to Charlie but... it fell apart for whatever reasons after like 1 session.
It would be amazing to see a developer backed balance team though.
<!--quoteo(post=1957700:date=Aug 5 2012, 10:12 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 5 2012, 10:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, after the exos are in, don't you think the game will enter a feature-freeze soon after? We are only a 1-1.5 months away from release, there's really not a lot that can (or should) change anymore at this point. And after the game has hit retail, large alterations in the way the game works likely won't be made (these aren't the days of the HL1-mod anymore).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. But more subtle things like movement, the way things like free hydras function, hp/armor values, blink/leap mechanics, and a whole slew of other features could be tweaked. These small changes together can change the overall game drastically. This is what i think we need to wait for before any real criticism of UWE can take place.
I'm not saying that there aren't valid points in this thread, just that there doesn't seem to be much in the game that cant be fixed by changing the way the current mechanics interact with each other, and without changing their role overall.
I know, I was part of it. It was a shame it never got off the ground and that there was so much animosity surrounding it. Endorsement and real responsibility would make the world of difference though. Grissi's efforts alone were pretty monumental so i'm glad he's at least a "bug" tester, hoho.
<!--quoteo(post=1957683:date=Aug 5 2012, 04:38 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Aug 5 2012, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This might be a little off-topic but..
If you have not already, I'd suggest watching Indie Game - The movie which is a documentary about the insane amount of hardships that startups have to go through to make their dream games become reality.
No, NS2 might not have the amazing responsiveness of netcode that goldsrc had yet, and no, the game might not live up to the 3.0+ version that everyone loves to compare it to that took a year+ after NS1 1.0 was released to get there.. NS2 is a new game with a lot of new mechanics and a totally new engine and it will take probably just as long to make it to that level of balance and performance. We don't even have the feature-complete build of NS2, I don't get why many NS1 players stomp all over this game because it's not perfect yet.
But even so, look at the human side? - It's such a small group of guys working tirelessly on their dream game for <i>years</i> without any promise of grandure or profit and they want it to be a success more than any of us.
guess what I'm saying is.. give them a break maybe? I think they have done a really great job so far and I hope that NS2 can become a game the NS1 players will come to love eventually. Plus... what else are you going to play? the market is full of nothing but terrible games in terms of team based shooters.. especially with the unique RTS twist NS2 has, I'll still play it even if it's not perfect yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TotalBiscuit made a good comment on this 1 game he was reviewing. This game was made by 1 person and TB was obviously impressed, yet he made the point that consumers dont give a crap about how small the dev team is or what difficulties they have. All they care about is if the final product is any good and if its worth their hard earned cash.
<!--quoteo(post=1957685:date=Aug 5 2012, 04:43 PM:name=Jwam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jwam @ Aug 5 2012, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How can you compare a very mature mod with an unreleased, unfinished, unbalanced product?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
quite easily actually
This is a sequel game to that very mature mod, the lessons learnt there should be evident in this game, yet they arent. Besides, the core gameplay of NS1 didnt change since 1.0
NS2 has been in development for like 6 years
this so called unreleased, unfinished, unbalanced product goes live in 3-4 patches time in a little under 2 months. Technically this game should still be in Alpha and at the very least needs another 6 months in Beta
<!--quoteo(post=1957704:date=Aug 5 2012, 07:18 PM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Aug 5 2012, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE made changes to things that made NS1 a hassle to play:
+Don't have to spend resources as a gorge to make critical team upgrades since Kharaa has a Khamander now +eliminates the res-whoring that NS1 had that made Aliens lose the advantage cuz no one wanted to spend res to Gorge and build chambers, or died while trying to build a resource tower that no one defended, thus losing 10 res for gorge AND 15 res for the Resource Tower they lost, and thus having to wait for the longest time to get enough res for lifeforms.
+Marines don't have to bother the Commander to get weapons when they can just buy it themselves and get the job done quicker (though the commander can still drop weapons anyway)
+Turtling is hardly an issue anymore these days (Turrets serve their purpose as a static support system, not a Marine replacement and Resources for Kills no longer exists, which gave NS1 Marine turtles a boost.)
+Marines have Sprint (NS1 marines had this quasi-bunny-hop maneuver which only the vet players knew how to execute)
+Skulks are way more maneuverable than their NS1 counter-parts due to Wall-Jumping (gives a small speed boost, which gives Skulks the ability to dodge AND close distance with Marines)
I could go on, but those are more than enough changes to make NS2 a clearly superior game in mechanics than NS1 will ever be. All that's needed now is the performance to be boosted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most of your "positive changes" include worse side effects.
Situation regarding a-comm has barely improved, bad comm will ruin the game for all resources will still get destroyed if not protected but in this case there is nobody to see it soon enough.
Because everyone can get weapon/s their power has to be significantly weaker which makes them very unpleasent and unrewarding to use compared to old ones but the biggest issue is that it reduces commander resource control aspect which in my opinion is important.
Turtling is not an issue, it has been only commander incompetence to admit defeat. The game has been long over when people get the idea of turtling. RFK was a great feature to reward the successor.
Sprint is a big issue that effects the game pace and has lead to game being rush intensive instead of intelligent map / resource domination.
Skulks are not more maneuverable, I dont know what game you played but you did not play enough if you think NS2 skulk movement is superior to NS1 one, even the wall jumping.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
While the internal playtesters do give balance feedback and discussion, much of our job is finding/squashing bugs and crashes such that as many beta playtesters can play the game as possible. Things do slip through, but I've found most of the builds to be playable, if not always fun. Also, UWE has frequently incorporated changes from the community/brought over NS1 features such as (not comprehensive) - Switching bilebomb back to gorge - NS1 fade blink mechanic (remember the terrible teleporting blink?) - NS1 GL - Many of the NS1 upgrades (adrenaline, celerity, cara, regen, silence) - Getting rid of medpacks restoring armor - Welders - Lerk bite - Lerk umbra - Removal of multiple comms - Removal of nanoconstruct - Too many tweaks to structure health/cost, weapon damage/cost, attack damage/cost to mention
Also, for those who just want NS1:Spark, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=117884" target="_blank">people are already working on it</a>, and, if the mod downloading does work out as planned, installing it will be as simple as subscribing through the Steam Workshop.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1957708:date=Aug 5 2012, 10:22 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Aug 5 2012, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hugh would carry over to Charlie but...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be amazing to see a developer backed balance team though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you get anymore backed than that? Internal builds won't offer much in the way of assisting balance, just add to bugs...
<!--quoteo(post=1957611:date=Aug 5 2012, 07:15 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 5 2012, 07:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i find that the #1 reason it's not as enjoyable is because frankly, the community isn't as good as it was. a close second is the performance, but i'm willing to wait. it is curious to me, however, that the devs are pushing so hard to release when games like minecraft have stayed in alpha/beta for years and never had a problem getting by, yet every single game that has ever been released in an unfinished/unpolished state has gotten absolutely demolished due to poor reviews. why? we told you it was too early for beta and it was, and we forgave you because it was do or die. but now the situation is different - you have the money to do a proper dev job, yet you're rushing the release. why?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is the key.
As long as it is "Beta" people are more willing to let things slide. But as it stands the performance on most servers becomes atrocious on larger games which is where NS2 should shine. But the moment we say "it's ready!" people expect a polished clean copy.
We aren't in the days of NS1 where a game can come out and say "don't worry, it'll get better!" There are too many other indie games vying for our attention. It's just like how DLC is hardly bought beyond the first week or as part of a giant pack. People don't care enough. You have to hook them early.
We can argue about gameplay features until the heat death of the universe, but I think until performance gets cleaned up it doesn't matter quite as much. If we had more time, we could keep experimenting, but with a release date I'm feeling a bit uneasy about this.
<!--quoteo(post=1957708:date=Aug 5 2012, 09:22 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Aug 5 2012, 09:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be amazing to see a developer backed balance team though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There already is one.
<!--quoteo(post=1957755:date=Aug 5 2012, 07:48 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 5 2012, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do you get anymore backed than that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Give them campfire, give them leadership, give them the balance-maker's ear, make it official. The NS2 balance team was more of a reaction to the process than part of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1957745:date=Aug 5 2012, 06:26 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 5 2012, 06:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, for those who just want NS1:Spark, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=117884" target="_blank">people are already working on it</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I did think this, until after a while the thought set in that with the speed at which NS1 operates, the facilitating engine needs to able to provide a consistently high and stable framerate, as well as a solid netcode with excellent reg. I guess in due time the hope for Spark being able to offer this kinda dissipated with me, seeing many months and many builds pass without the significant performance-increase needed to realise some kind of NS1 on Spark. This isn't saying no performance-increase happened, but in the grander scheme of things, it isn't sufficient. I often see people make the comparison to the initial alpha-release, and how things are now, and surely the improvement between these 2 reference-frames is dramatic, but that is talking about a timeframe of 2 years, while currently there only remains 1-1.5 months, and the extrapolation of past improvements made to 1.5 months from now, does not paint an optimistic picture.
*sigh*, I promised myself I wouldn't go on about this until at least v1.0-release, but the topic is still as alive and relevant as it was 2 years ago.
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1957821:date=Aug 5 2012, 10:32 PM:name=Perestroika)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Perestroika @ Aug 5 2012, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sometimes this place is a black hole of negativity, I do hope the devs grin and bear it. Because when ns2 shines, its quite something in my opinion.
I say we nuke the forum from orbit
its the only way to be sure<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's impossible to create a good game without valid, negative criticism and feedback.
There can't be only praise and happiness. That doesn't solve the gaping problems.
People complain and criticize because they <b>care</b> about the game and want it to succeed.
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1957833:date=Aug 5 2012, 10:51 PM:name=CobraCommander)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CobraCommander @ Aug 5 2012, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie Cleveland, the NS1 mastermind is working on NS2, but you guys think he sold out or lost his creativity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even a mastermind can be wrong. Doesn't mean we don't love him. :p
<!--quoteo(post=1957833:date=Aug 5 2012, 08:51 PM:name=CobraCommander)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CobraCommander @ Aug 5 2012, 08:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie Cleveland, the NS1 mastermind is working on NS2, but you guys think he sold out or lost his creativity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are quite a number of people you're not giving due credit, Charlie wasn't alone on the NS1 dev-team.
<!--quoteo(post=1957803:date=Aug 5 2012, 08:06 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 5 2012, 08:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... the facilitating engine needs to able to provide a consistently high and stable framerate, as well as a solid netcode with excellent reg. I guess in due time the hope for Spark being able to offer this kinda dissipated with me, seeing many months and many builds pass without the significant performance-increase needed to realise some kind of NS1 on Spark.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly.
Does anyone know, has anything been said, about the progress of the virtual machine (rocket?) and if it will be used for 1.0? I fear it will not help enough. It seems the idea of Lua to engine/FPS is not going to be fast enough for today's average CPUs.
<!--quoteo(post=1957835:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:53 PM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ Aug 5 2012, 12:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even a mastermind can be wrong. Doesn't mean we don't love him. :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In your opinion he may be going the wrong direction, but I think he is a mastermind and the game is exciting so far even with all the lag! I'm still waiting for the exosuit to come out :D The exo will get me even more excited woohoooooo!! Love NS2 ><
<!--quoteo(post=1957838:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:55 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 5 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are quite a number of people you're not giving due credit, Charlie wasn't alone on the NS1 dev-team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, I only saw his name on the Wiki and it never changed too.
In it's current state as a beta game, I'm entirely happy. They brought so many new things to the table that are amazing changes. In retrospect, the game has A LOT of changing to do. I can't wait until the first MAJOR patch after release. I have high expectations for their changes, but I know that the people who created this game are in the right mindset for the direction they want to take the game.
I am pleased with the beta; just waiting on the first set of major changes after release.
<!--quoteo(post=1957833:date=Aug 5 2012, 04:51 PM:name=CobraCommander)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CobraCommander @ Aug 5 2012, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie Cleveland, the NS1 mastermind is working on NS2, but you guys think he sold out or lost his creativity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*edit* you're neglecting all the feedback from playtesters, players, and other devs that went into making ns1. the first halloween release of ns1 was buggy as hell. i don't think he's lost his creativity, it just feels like he's trying to cram in a bunch of mechanics that are unproven or proven bad (like infestation spikes, nanoconstruct/nanoshield, etc) to try and differentiate ns2 from the original. also i don't think he's ever been great at initial balance considerations.
Does anyone know, has anything been said, about the progress of the virtual machine (rocket?) and if it will be used for 1.0? I fear it will not help enough. It seems the idea of Lua to engine/FPS is not going to be fast enough for today's average CPUs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
did you see matso's post in the recent performance thread? some words about lua vm in there.
regarding the OP: long time non-pro ns1 player. alpha ns2 supporter. just need good movement, tight performance & hit reg. honestly the extra/different ns2 gameplay mechanics don't bother me to the point of rage. I understand the intent was to make this more palatable to a broader gaming community & I'm OK with that.
I have a bad habit of purchasing games that are still in beta. NS2 was an impulse buy because I really enjoyed NS1. My thoughts were that it was going to be an improved NS1. But there were too many changes to the game that has altered the flow of the game and the gameplay (some good and some bad), but areas that were affected because of those changes that needs to be changed as well but left untouched, well, you have a jumbled mess that is NS2. Bandage fixes everywhere the eye can see has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Ignored feedback and wasting time on changes that the community said wasn't going to work (and they didn't work) has been an issue as well.
The new players that just joined is not nearly enough to keep the community alive for very long. Maybe if TF2 offers hats to people who pre-order (or purchase) NS2, it might snag a few more people that would have otherwise never even known about this game. Free weekend might help too if done early enough after release. But even with those gimmicks, this game isn't going to be strong enough to keep a community for long, especially not for 35 bucks.
not really but i'm pretty jaded towards preferring old competitive games with good engines. the farther away we get from the quake 1 engine and goldsrc the more i weep. it's unrealistic to expect anyone to emulate the golden era of competitive fps engines, so i'll probably still play for awhile to come.
<!--quoteo(post=1957833:date=Aug 5 2012, 08:51 PM:name=CobraCommander)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CobraCommander @ Aug 5 2012, 08:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie Cleveland, the NS1 mastermind is working on NS2, but you guys think he sold out or lost his creativity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
his ideas come from NS combat mod and TF2 (teamfortress) and NS1 layer (skins?), imo. which is the current mixed game we have now, it feels all over the place, many elements do not being in the game. But to answer your question, I do believe charlie sold out. Not only does not listen to his NS1 vets, but adapted crazy ideas, ignoring ns1 completely and removing things which worked great for years. So this is the final version of the game you guys all waited for? But charlie said it himself, he wanted NS2 to be mixed being combat and classic which is the current mess.
I just find it silly seeing some ns1 ideas being adapted (to some degree) right before the release, its like kick to the gut. How many more failed builds till we roll back to working ideas? what does it take for them to admit to failed mistakes?
I will not go into performance issues, thats actually the biggest problem of the game. I'm not sure how much improvement we can have in month or two but at this point it doesn't look good. So I hope I'm wrong. But with stable engine, the game might have hope, who knows at this point.
Comments
The forums are pisspot of terrible ideas all thrown into a bunch of repeating threads. Very well thought out suggestions get drowned out by incredibly stupid ones, criticism is constantly criticised and ideas are repeated ad infinitum because there is little feedback returned by credible individuals. I don't really blame UWE for not relying on the forums because disseminating the good information from the bad is difficult, especially if/when UWE don't know who or what is good themselves.
The playtester team is ill-equipped (on average) to make any great suggestions on balance because they don't have the qualifications for it. Many are inexperienced, have weak grasps on game design, love/fear UWE too much or play the current build too little. While I have respect for many of the members and enjoyed my time there, my biggest concern was with the large volumes of bad advice being given. It would be ok if they truly were bugtesters as often touted but the fact remains that they were (are?) Charlie's first port of call for many queries. I have begun to notice more qualified players joining the ranks (good job, Obraxis) but the acceptable standard is still way below par when it comes to solid gameplay intuition or experience. I'd love to see more puzls and tankefugls leading the way and I still feel the loss of Jiriki's influence in the playtester team.
At this point, so ridiculously close to release, there really needs to be a quality balance team formed and it needs to be respected and endorsed by UWE and it needs to be given real responsibility. No mortal man can make all the right calls himself and that especially goes for someone who doesn't play games in general, let alone his own one, so that torch should be passed over now that we are feature complete. I actually think this should have happened a long time ago. There are plenty of dedicated and clever players who have the skill for it and it should be really obvious who those people are. Just look at people like Yuuki, Grissi, Fana, Bacillus, elodea, eh?, GORGEous, rantology, elmo, just to name a few and you already have a really eclectic team of people who are well-equipped to give good advice and who come from a variety of backgrounds (in fact, only one of which came from top level NS1).
--
As for strategy, I have to agree with fmpone that not enough respect has been shown to the process through which NS1 has grown. I remember seeing/hearing Charlie talk about NS1 quite negatively and, to be honest, without much understanding (except at entry level, where I concede) and I knew then that NS2 was going to take too many turnings and lose its way. I also agree with Whee that a good game doesn't include every cool idea under the sun but rather takes a few and does them well.
That said, the Natural Selection concept is so good and so original, that it will always be a good game by virtue of it's niche genre. I hope it does well.
It would be amazing to see a developer backed balance team though.
True. But more subtle things like movement, the way things like free hydras function, hp/armor values, blink/leap mechanics, and a whole slew of other features could be tweaked. These small changes together can change the overall game drastically. This is what i think we need to wait for before any real criticism of UWE can take place.
I'm not saying that there aren't valid points in this thread, just that there doesn't seem to be much in the game that cant be fixed by changing the way the current mechanics interact with each other, and without changing their role overall.
If you have not already, I'd suggest watching Indie Game - The movie which is a documentary about the insane amount of hardships that startups have to go through to make their dream games become reality.
No, NS2 might not have the amazing responsiveness of netcode that goldsrc had yet, and no, the game might not live up to the 3.0+ version that everyone loves to compare it to that took a year+ after NS1 1.0 was released to get there.. NS2 is a new game with a lot of new mechanics and a totally new engine and it will take probably just as long to make it to that level of balance and performance. We don't even have the feature-complete build of NS2, I don't get why many NS1 players stomp all over this game because it's not perfect yet.
But even so, look at the human side? - It's such a small group of guys working tirelessly on their dream game for <i>years</i> without any promise of grandure or profit and they want it to be a success more than any of us.
guess what I'm saying is.. give them a break maybe? I think they have done a really great job so far and I hope that NS2 can become a game the NS1 players will come to love eventually. Plus... what else are you going to play? the market is full of nothing but terrible games in terms of team based shooters.. especially with the unique RTS twist NS2 has, I'll still play it even if it's not perfect yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TotalBiscuit made a good comment on this 1 game he was reviewing. This game was made by 1 person and TB was obviously impressed, yet he made the point that consumers dont give a crap about how small the dev team is or what difficulties they have. All they care about is if the final product is any good and if its worth their hard earned cash.
<!--quoteo(post=1957685:date=Aug 5 2012, 04:43 PM:name=Jwam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jwam @ Aug 5 2012, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How can you compare a very mature mod with an unreleased, unfinished, unbalanced product?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
quite easily actually
This is a sequel game to that very mature mod, the lessons learnt there should be evident in this game, yet they arent. Besides, the core gameplay of NS1 didnt change since 1.0
NS2 has been in development for like 6 years
this so called unreleased, unfinished, unbalanced product goes live in 3-4 patches time in a little under 2 months. Technically this game should still be in Alpha and at the very least needs another 6 months in Beta
+Don't have to spend resources as a gorge to make critical team upgrades since Kharaa has a Khamander now
+eliminates the res-whoring that NS1 had that made Aliens lose the advantage cuz no one wanted to spend res to Gorge and build chambers, or died while trying to build a resource tower that no one defended, thus losing 10 res for gorge AND 15 res for the Resource Tower they lost, and thus having to wait for the longest time to get enough res for lifeforms.
+Marines don't have to bother the Commander to get weapons when they can just buy it themselves and get the job done quicker (though the commander can still drop weapons anyway)
+Turtling is hardly an issue anymore these days (Turrets serve their purpose as a static support system, not a Marine replacement and Resources for Kills no longer exists, which gave NS1 Marine turtles a boost.)
+Marines have Sprint (NS1 marines had this quasi-bunny-hop maneuver which only the vet players knew how to execute)
+Skulks are way more maneuverable than their NS1 counter-parts due to Wall-Jumping (gives a small speed boost, which gives Skulks the ability to dodge AND close distance with Marines)
I could go on, but those are more than enough changes to make NS2 a clearly superior game in mechanics than NS1 will ever be. All that's needed now is the performance to be boosted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of your "positive changes" include worse side effects.
Situation regarding a-comm has barely improved, bad comm will ruin the game for all resources will still get destroyed if not protected but in this case there is nobody to see it soon enough.
Because everyone can get weapon/s their power has to be significantly weaker which makes them very unpleasent and unrewarding to use compared to old ones but the biggest issue is that it reduces commander resource control aspect which in my opinion is important.
Turtling is not an issue, it has been only commander incompetence to admit defeat. The game has been long over when people get the idea of turtling. RFK was a great feature to reward the successor.
Sprint is a big issue that effects the game pace and has lead to game being rush intensive instead of intelligent map / resource domination.
Skulks are not more maneuverable, I dont know what game you played but you did not play enough if you think NS2 skulk movement is superior to NS1 one, even the wall jumping.
- Switching bilebomb back to gorge
- NS1 fade blink mechanic (remember the terrible teleporting blink?)
- NS1 GL
- Many of the NS1 upgrades (adrenaline, celerity, cara, regen, silence)
- Getting rid of medpacks restoring armor
- Welders
- Lerk bite
- Lerk umbra
- Removal of multiple comms
- Removal of nanoconstruct
- Too many tweaks to structure health/cost, weapon damage/cost, attack damage/cost to mention
Also, for those who just want NS1:Spark, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=117884" target="_blank">people are already working on it</a>, and, if the mod downloading does work out as planned, installing it will be as simple as subscribing through the Steam Workshop.
Ya, which is why I still follow this game, just 2 big issues I have yet to remain changed before I get onboard with NS2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be amazing to see a developer backed balance team though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you get anymore backed than that? Internal builds won't offer much in the way of assisting balance, just add to bugs...
I think this is the key.
As long as it is "Beta" people are more willing to let things slide. But as it stands the performance on most servers becomes atrocious on larger games which is where NS2 should shine. But the moment we say "it's ready!" people expect a polished clean copy.
We aren't in the days of NS1 where a game can come out and say "don't worry, it'll get better!" There are too many other indie games vying for our attention. It's just like how DLC is hardly bought beyond the first week or as part of a giant pack. People don't care enough. You have to hook them early.
We can argue about gameplay features until the heat death of the universe, but I think until performance gets cleaned up it doesn't matter quite as much. If we had more time, we could keep experimenting, but with a release date I'm feeling a bit uneasy about this.
There already is one.
Who is that?
Give them campfire, give them leadership, give them the balance-maker's ear, make it official. The NS2 balance team was more of a reaction to the process than part of it.
I did think this, until after a while the thought set in that with the speed at which NS1 operates, the facilitating engine needs to able to provide a consistently high and stable framerate, as well as a solid netcode with excellent reg. I guess in due time the hope for Spark being able to offer this kinda dissipated with me, seeing many months and many builds pass without the significant performance-increase needed to realise some kind of NS1 on Spark. This isn't saying no performance-increase happened, but in the grander scheme of things, it isn't sufficient. I often see people make the comparison to the initial alpha-release, and how things are now, and surely the improvement between these 2 reference-frames is dramatic, but that is talking about a timeframe of 2 years, while currently there only remains 1-1.5 months, and the extrapolation of past improvements made to 1.5 months from now, does not paint an optimistic picture.
*sigh*, I promised myself I wouldn't go on about this until at least v1.0-release, but the topic is still as alive and relevant as it was 2 years ago.
I say we nuke the forum from orbit
its the only way to be sure
I say we nuke the forum from orbit
its the only way to be sure<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's impossible to create a good game without valid, negative criticism and feedback.
There can't be only praise and happiness. That doesn't solve the gaping problems.
People complain and criticize because they <b>care</b> about the game and want it to succeed.
Even a mastermind can be wrong. Doesn't mean we don't love him. :p
There are quite a number of people you're not giving due credit, Charlie wasn't alone on the NS1 dev-team.
Exactly.
Does anyone know, has anything been said, about the progress of the virtual machine (rocket?) and if it will be used for 1.0? I fear it will not help enough. It seems the idea of Lua to engine/FPS is not going to be fast enough for today's average CPUs.
In your opinion he may be going the wrong direction, but I think he is a mastermind and the game is exciting so far even with all the lag! I'm still waiting for the exosuit to come out :D The exo will get me even more excited woohoooooo!! Love NS2 ><
<!--quoteo(post=1957838:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:55 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 5 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are quite a number of people you're not giving due credit, Charlie wasn't alone on the NS1 dev-team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, I only saw his name on the Wiki and it never changed too.
I am pleased with the beta; just waiting on the first set of major changes after release.
*edit* you're neglecting all the feedback from playtesters, players, and other devs that went into making ns1. the first halloween release of ns1 was buggy as hell. i don't think he's lost his creativity, it just feels like he's trying to cram in a bunch of mechanics that are unproven or proven bad (like infestation spikes, nanoconstruct/nanoshield, etc) to try and differentiate ns2 from the original. also i don't think he's ever been great at initial balance considerations.
Does anyone know, has anything been said, about the progress of the virtual machine (rocket?) and if it will be used for 1.0? I fear it will not help enough. It seems the idea of Lua to engine/FPS is not going to be fast enough for today's average CPUs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
did you see matso's post in the recent performance thread? some words about lua vm in there.
regarding the OP: long time non-pro ns1 player. alpha ns2 supporter. just need good movement, tight performance & hit reg. honestly the extra/different ns2 gameplay mechanics don't bother me to the point of rage. I understand the intent was to make this more palatable to a broader gaming community & I'm OK with that.
I have high hopes for mods.
The new players that just joined is not nearly enough to keep the community alive for very long. Maybe if TF2 offers hats to people who pre-order (or purchase) NS2, it might snag a few more people that would have otherwise never even known about this game. Free weekend might help too if done early enough after release. But even with those gimmicks, this game isn't going to be strong enough to keep a community for long, especially not for 35 bucks.
his ideas come from NS combat mod and TF2 (teamfortress) and NS1 layer (skins?), imo. which is the current mixed game we have now, it feels all over the place, many elements do not being in the game. But to answer your question, I do believe charlie sold out. Not only does not listen to his NS1 vets, but adapted crazy ideas, ignoring ns1 completely and removing things which worked great for years. So this is the final version of the game you guys all waited for? But charlie said it himself, he wanted NS2 to be mixed being combat and classic which is the current mess.
I just find it silly seeing some ns1 ideas being adapted (to some degree) right before the release, its like kick to the gut. How many more failed builds till we roll back to working ideas? what does it take for them to admit to failed mistakes?
I will not go into performance issues, thats actually the biggest problem of the game. I'm not sure how much improvement we can have in month or two but at this point it doesn't look good. So I hope I'm wrong. But with stable engine, the game might have hope, who knows at this point.