<!--quoteo(post=1957634:date=Aug 5 2012, 11:01 AM:name=Sebenza)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sebenza @ Aug 5 2012, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really disappointed the devs just scrapped combat mode. It was a lot of fun, and its popularity amongst casual players supports my point. Don't get me wrong, I love vanilla NS, but sometimes I just don't feel like fourty minutes of coordination, teamplay and concentration, but just like some beating the hell out of eachother casually and a little e-peen comparison amongst teammates - especially after getting steamrolled in vanilla too many times due to horrible lack of teamplay on pubs.
I've never been a comp player. I'm just a casual and I'll always be one. I probably represent a significant part of the community and an equally significant source of revenue for the developers when I say: Don't make this a die-hard competitive e-sports title. Give us the option to chose between the light-hearted fun-/training-mode and the complex "real deal". I equally enjoyed them, and stripping half of that feels like stripping half my fun.
Just responding "well, the game is highly moddable, make your own combat mode" doesn't satisfy me at all. Community created mods which you have to a) know and b) download from an external website tend disappear into oblivion due to notorious lack of players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there's already a community-made combat mod. it works pretty well.
<!--quoteo(post=1957635:date=Aug 5 2012, 05:05 PM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Aug 5 2012, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there is already a combat mod <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119151" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=119151</a> :) its very much its alpha stages though<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see, this is perfectly underlining my point. You HAVE to know what you're looking for, you HAVE to know it exists, you HAVE to look for it, you HAVE to download it from some external site. So what's with the players who never played NS before? How are they going to know about it? Do you want to rely on them browsing these forums or randomly hearing about it by accident? Will combat mode servers even appear on the server list when you don't have it installed? This all seems very unreliable to me. For all I know, this mod might very well be dead even before it's born... It's a huge difference of having a mode implemented in the standard game or not.
The idea was that any mod (maps\scripts\sounds whichever) would be automatically pulled from the steam-workshop upon connecting, an auto-downloading mechanism. Though so far this has only been realised for maps (but broken at the moment?) and script-downloading may have been axed to meet the v1.0-release. Post-release perhaps...
<!--quoteo(post=1957642:date=Aug 6 2012, 01:16 AM:name=Sebenza)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sebenza @ Aug 6 2012, 01:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You see, this is perfectly underlining my point. You HAVE to know what you're looking for, you HAVE to know it exists, you HAVE to look for it, you HAVE to download it from some external site. So what's with the players who never played NS before? How are they going to know about it? Do you want to rely on them browsing these forums or randomly hearing about it by accident? Will combat mode servers even appear on the server list when you don't have it installed? This all seems very unreliable to me. For all I know, this mod might very well be dead even before it's born... It's a huge difference of having a mode implemented in the standard game or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well combat mode is server side if you're ok with not having GUI interface... To play, you only need to join a server that is running it. It might be called "NS2 Combat Server".
Regarding maps/client-side mods, i figure Steam workshop will be alot more transparent to access and use in the future. It is an alpha/beta afterall (lol)
*edit* Oh in regard to OP, i was a pretty big pub noob in NS1 but i do remember movement being alot more fluid and sieging being a way better experience than the current ARC train style.
<!--quoteo(post=1957644:date=Aug 5 2012, 05:20 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 5 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea was that any mod (maps\scripts\sounds whichever) would be automatically pulled from the steam-workshop upon connecting, an auto-downloading mechanism. Though so far this has only been realised for maps (but broken at the moment?) and script-downloading may have been axed to meet the v1.0-release. Post-release perhaps...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This seems like a halfway decent solution. My hope isn't lost completely. Will there be something like an ingame advertising feature for the most popular mods, somehow like they'd pulled it off in Star Craft 2? I'd really appreciate that.
<!--quoteo(post=1957644:date=Aug 5 2012, 03:20 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 5 2012, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea was that any mod (maps\scripts\sounds whichever) would be automatically pulled from the steam-workshop upon connecting, an auto-downloading mechanism. Though so far this has only been realised for maps (but broken at the moment?) and script-downloading may have been axed to meet the v1.0-release. Post-release perhaps...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they were looking for a programmer to work on steam workshop integration (saw that on a tweet maybe), so it seems it require some work.
Most games deal with this by using an external launcher. All you need really is wget and a bat file...
It's a little more complicated than that. Imagine you're using rGuiZero on your client, a simple download of all the server's scripts would overwrite it and render it non-functional. The real difficult is in trying to merge all the client's mods, as well as allow the server to send over some new scripts. Well, actually it's not all that difficult if there exists a clear protocol\infrastructure for modders to adhere to, but at the moment there still is no such thing. Then there is also the difficulty of trying to establish a definition of 'vanilla' (the slightest modification rendering a server 'modded' would be problematical).
Slightly related to your earlier question, if NS2 tanks really hard, there will exist quite a large vacuum in the FPS\RTS-genre, and I may have an idea or 2 in that area...
<!--quoteo(post=1957632:date=Aug 6 2012, 12:52 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 6 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not disagreeing with your post, but it isn't hard to understand why a lot of good forum feedback gets dismissed. Frankly, 95% of everything suggested on here is a load of bull######. Having to wade through all that and pick out the gems is a herculean task, not to mention that the devs themselves have ideas of how the game works/should work that often clash with the worthwhile posts.
At this point, I hope UWE just trucks on with whatever it is they're doing, and completely ignore the forums. Use the PTs and potentially ask a few select players for their opinions, and then we'll just have to see how it turns out in the end.
In reply to the OP: No, I don't know any NS1 players who are happy with NS2, as it currently is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A part of the problem are the play testers they have proven now as we can see the result in NS2 Beta 205 they are incompetent when it comes to giving feedback on gameplay aspects of the game, way to many massively broken things made it out into the wild that should have never made it past the play testers....
<!--quoteo(post=1957651:date=Aug 5 2012, 11:39 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 5 2012, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A part of the problem are the play testers they have proven now as we can see the result in NS2 Beta 205 they are incompetent when it comes to giving feedback on gameplay aspects of the game, way to many massively broken things made it out into the wild that should have never made it past the play testers....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> not that i'm a playtester or defending them here, but...do you have any ###### clue what you're talking about? because it sure doesn't seem like it.
<!--quoteo(post=1957652:date=Aug 5 2012, 03:46 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 5 2012, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not that i'm a playtester or defending them here, but...do you have any ###### clue what you're talking about? because it sure doesn't seem like it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually what he said makes a lot of sense, if something after being tested internally by the testers is extremely broken or bad, it should never be released to the public.
<!--quoteo(post=1957651:date=Aug 5 2012, 07:39 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 5 2012, 07:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A part of the problem are the play testers they have proven now as we can see the result in NS2 Beta 205 they are incompetent when it comes to giving feedback on gameplay aspects of the game, way to many massively broken things made it out into the wild that should have never made it past the play testers....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i tend to agree
who ever thought nanoconstruct was a good idea ? lerk with bile bomb ? no cooldown for nanoshield ? gimping sentries until they are useless ? celerity megaspeed ?
What iare the playtesters role actually ? are they merely there to find bugs ?
it would be nice is the devs did more poll's and asked the greater community before they made a change, it could save them alot of work.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1957660:date=Aug 5 2012, 11:57 AM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Aug 5 2012, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i tend to agree
who ever thought nanoconstruct was a good idea ? lerk with bile bomb ? no cooldown for nanoshield ? gimping sentries until they are useless ? celerity megaspeed ?
What iare the playtesters role actually ? are they merely there to find bugs ?
it would be nice is the devs did more poll's and asked the greater community before they made a change, it could save them alot of work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make the mistake of thinking playtesters have much more say than you do
you also make the mistake of thinking that these beta patches are like patches to live games. of course the devs are going to try out different things to see if they work.
*edit* you, yes YOU are the beta tester pool. don't forget that you're every part the playtester that these "internal playtesters" are, you just get a relatively less buggy version.
that is to say, we are the gameplay testers. so the onus is on YOU, the playtester, to raise issues with gameplay elements that aren't working. if enough of us complain about something, it gets changed (well aside from pet projects like a-khamm and power nodes).
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1957667:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:13 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 5 2012, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you also make the mistake of thinking that these beta patches are like patches to live games. of course the devs are going to try out different things to see if they work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that UWE deserves a lot of credit for how far they've come. But intuitively understanding how well certain features will work within the context of the game, or how certain features will benefit the game, has been one area where they have consistently and continue to come up lacking. To have a working prototype of a game, NS1, and change so much, was an eye opening risk. From where we stand now, it was clearly a mistake.
There is a lot of wisdom is continuing to do what works. Those who alter what has been proven to work have the burden of proving it will be an improvement. If not, you risk looking foolish.
This basic test is one that has been demonstrably unfavorable thus far.
As far as a pure game, graphics etc aside, there is a real chance that we have taken steps backward since 2002. That's a problem to lay squarely at the feet of the developers.
<!--quoteo(post=1957667:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:13 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 5 2012, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you also make the mistake of thinking that these beta patches are like patches to live games. of course the devs are going to try out different things to see if they work.
*edit* you, yes YOU are the beta tester pool. don't forget that you're every part the playtester that these "internal playtesters" are, you just get a relatively less buggy version.
that is to say, we are the gameplay testers. so the onus is on YOU, the playtester, to raise issues with gameplay elements that aren't working. if enough of us complain about something, it gets changed (well aside from pet projects like a-khamm and power nodes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't matter what a playtester says. Developers decide.
Developers make the hard choices. Playtesters can say "this is a bad idea. I do not like this. We should not go in this direction." No matter. It's not our choice to make. Our voices count as much as yours, if not less, because we are taken with a grain of salt, because we are so small in number.
<!--quoteo(post=1957669:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:16 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Aug 5 2012, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that UWE deserves a lot of credit for how far they've come. But intuitively understanding how well certain features will work within the context of the game, or how certain features will benefit the game, has been one area where they have consistently and continue to come up lacking. To have a working prototype of a game, NS1, and change so much, was an eye opening risk. From where we stand now, it was clearly a mistake.
There is a lot of wisdom is continuing to do what works. Those who alter what has been proven to work have the burden of proving it will be an improvement. If not, you risk looking foolish.
This basic test is one that has been demonstrably unfavorable thus far.
As far as a pure game, graphics etc aside, there is a real chance that we have taken steps backward since 2002. That's a problem to lay squarely at the feet of the developers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes, i agree that ns1 was a much more cohesive game. that is why i am so puzzled at the devs' rush to push the game to release. it clearly isn't ready nor near the level of game that ns1 was. i'm not defending certain decisions of the dev team at all. but in many cases the devs HAVE changed the gameplay to suit forum feedback.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't matter what a playtester says. Developers decide.
Developers make the hard choices. Playtesters can say "this is a bad idea. I do not like this. We should not go in this direction." No matter. It's not our choice to make. Our voices count as much as yours, if not less, because we are taken with a grain of salt, because we are so small in number.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm not addressing you, i'm addressing the people complaining about internal playtesters not doing their job. i'm sure the playtester group is constantly giving feedback on which gameplay mechanics work and which ones don't. i'm just saying that the general public that is ALSO beta testing this game needs to step up and not lay all the responsibility at the feet of internal PT's.
<!--quoteo(post=1957651:date=Aug 5 2012, 05:39 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 5 2012, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A part of the problem are the play testers they have proven now as we can see the result in NS2 Beta 205 they are incompetent when it comes to giving feedback on gameplay aspects of the game, way to many massively broken things made it out into the wild that should have never made it past the play testers....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't put too much blame on the PTs for that. I used to be an internal PT myself and can tell you that it is very hard to convince the devs to change a feature of the game. Which is understandable, as it is their game so they have the last say on everything. Furthermore Charlie, who makes the majority of game design and balance decisions, was very rarely available for direct discussions in the PT chat room or TS. You just have to understand that balancing is not the main focus of the playtest team. However, the PTs do have some influence when UWE is actively searching for balance advice!
--- To return to the OP, a reason for why I find NS2 so disappointing, is that UWE has shown very little understanding of how NS1 played. Instead of preserving the aspects that worked well, they smashed them to pieces and created poor alternatives from the mess.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1957671:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:25 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 5 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i'm not addressing you, i'm addressing the people complaining about internal playtesters not doing their job. i'm sure the playtester group is constantly giving feedback on which gameplay mechanics work and which ones don't. i'm just saying that the general public that is ALSO beta testing this game needs to step up and not lay all the responsibility at the feet of internal PT's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, anybody who blames the internal PTs for anything, is crazy. This game would suffer from more of the problems it currently does, were it not for the vast majority of internal PTs who either played NS1 or have enough understanding of the day to day gameplay, enough hours under their belt, to offer solid feedback.
Blame the devs for being too busy, or too understaffed, but most of all for trying to "do something new", instead of learning from the classics. This is a common mistake in art.
<!--quoteo(post=1957678:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:34 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Aug 5 2012, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, anybody who blames the internal PTs for anything, is crazy. This game would suffer from more of the problems it currently does, were it not for the vast majority of internal PTs who either played NS1 or have enough understanding of the day to day gameplay, enough hours under their belt, to offer solid feedback.
Blame the devs for being too busy, or too understaffed, but most of all for trying to "do something new", instead of learning from the classics. This is a common mistake in art.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i get the sense that flayra gets wrapped up in a bubble of "this is a cool idea, let's do it" and forget that the best game isn't a game that includes all the cool ideas, it's one that takes a few of them and does them extremely well.
If you have not already, I'd suggest watching Indie Game - The movie which is a documentary about the insane amount of hardships that startups have to go through to make their dream games become reality.
No, NS2 might not have the amazing responsiveness of netcode that goldsrc had yet, and no, the game might not live up to the 3.0+ version that everyone loves to compare it to that took a year+ after NS1 1.0 was released to get there.. NS2 is a new game with a lot of new mechanics and a totally new engine and it will take probably just as long to make it to that level of balance and performance. We don't even have the feature-complete build of NS2, I don't get why many NS1 players stomp all over this game because it's not perfect yet.
But even so, look at the human side? - It's such a small group of guys working tirelessly on their dream game for <i>years</i> without any promise of grandure or profit and they want it to be a success more than any of us.
guess what I'm saying is.. give them a break maybe? I think they have done a really great job so far and I hope that NS2 can become a game the NS1 players will come to love eventually. Plus... what else are you going to play? the market is full of nothing but terrible games in terms of team based shooters.. especially with the unique RTS twist NS2 has, I'll still play it even if it's not perfect yet.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1957667:date=Aug 5 2012, 09:13 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 5 2012, 09:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you also make the mistake of thinking that these beta patches are like patches to live games. of course the devs are going to try out different things to see if they work.
*edit* you, yes YOU are the beta tester pool. don't forget that you're every part the playtester that these "internal playtesters" are, you just get a relatively less buggy version.
that is to say, we are the gameplay testers. so the onus is on YOU, the playtester, to raise issues with gameplay elements that aren't working. if enough of us complain about something, it gets changed (well aside from pet projects like a-khamm and power nodes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can.. can we give Wheee an award of some kind?
<!--quoteo(post=1957532:date=Aug 5 2012, 03:58 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 5 2012, 03:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The play tester are just far to big a fanboys to give UWE proper harsh criticisms where its needed instead<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> a) You clearly don't know what you're talking about *looks in campfire and internal forums* b) I love how the subjective nature of "where its needed" only applies to your vision of how the game should be designed..
<!--quoteo(post=1957683:date=Aug 5 2012, 06:38 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Aug 5 2012, 06:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This might be a little off-topic but..
If you have not already, I'd suggest watching Indie Game - The movie which is a documentary about the insane amount of hardships that startups have to go through to make their dream games become reality.
No, NS2 might not have the amazing responsiveness of netcode that goldsrc had yet, and no, the game might not live up to the 3.0+ version that everyone loves to compare it to that took a year+ after NS1 1.0 was released to get there.. NS2 is a new game with a lot of new mechanics and a totally new engine and it will take probably just as long to make it to that level of balance and performance. We don't even have the feature-complete build of NS2, I don't get why many NS1 players stomp all over this game because it's not perfect yet.
But even so, look at the human side? - It's such a small group of guys working tirelessly on their dream game for <i>years</i> without any promise of grandure or profit and they want it to be a success more than any of us.
guess what I'm saying is.. give them a break maybe? I think they have done a really great job so far and I hope that NS2 can become a game the NS1 players will come to love eventually. Plus... what else are you going to play? the market is full of nothing but terrible games in terms of team based shooters.. especially with the unique RTS twist NS2 has, I'll still play it even if it's not perfect yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks mate! That sums up what I think.
How can you compare a very mature mod with an unreleased, unfinished, unbalanced product?
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1957683:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:38 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Aug 5 2012, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->guess what I'm saying is.. give them a break maybe? I think they have done a really great job so far and I hope that NS2 can become a game the NS1 players will come to love eventually. Plus... what else are you going to play? the market is full of nothing but terrible games in terms of team based shooters.. especially with the unique RTS twist NS2 has, I'll still play it even if it's not perfect yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Normally the person who says, "I could have suggested a better path to design this game" is a fool. But when you have NS1, and you overlook a working functional prototype to the extent we have now, it's an unforced error. There is no reason it had to be like this. It was a bit of arrogance, of over zealousness, of disrespect. There was not enough respect in the design process for the years that went into that game. Instead, we're pouring years into this one, we're chasing our tails, just trying to keep up.
This thread has a lot of good posts and these ideas are unfortunately not new. They have been posted about time and time again through out this 2-3 year beta process. The Devs have a plan and are sticking too it. Any chance, we as beta testers had of convincing them to change mechanics like Alien Comm, Power nodes, or Movement mechanics are gone. With this new TB crowd UWE has turned a crucial corner and are main stream now. Any attempt to revert gameplay that drastically will be frowned upon.
We as beta testers now have to center on performance and balance critiques. Any other ideas might as well be forwarded to a Spark Modder's email box.
If i hadnt known about NS1 i would probably really enjoy NS2 because it is better than any game out there. If i hadnt been included in the beta process i would have said this game isnt watered down, doesnt support hand holding, and is an intense team play game.
Unfortunately ignorance is bliss and i know better. I am truly sad we will never see a NS1 style game again till a developer takes a huge risk and makes it. Blame whatever or whoever you like for the decline in gaming (consoles, new "want it now" generation, or money hungry developers), but i thought UWE was different and wanted to do better for the gaming community. I don't blame them for the path they have taken, but if an "Indie" company wont even fight the good fight, who will?
@pone I think most of those years were poured into the making of Spark, really... we've only had slow feature updates for the past ~2years? 1 1/2? On some level I think you're right, there have been pretty disastrous design decisions. But the optimist in me still wants to believe ;/
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1957689:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:54 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Aug 5 2012, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread has a lot of good posts and these ideas are unfortunately not new. They have been posted about time and time again through out this 2-3 year beta process. The Devs have a plan and are sticking too it. Any chance we as beta testers had of convincing them to change mechanics like Alien Comm, Power nodes, or Movement mechanics are gone. With this new TB crowd UWE has turned a crucial corner and are main stream now. Any attempt to revert gameplay that drastically will be frowned upon.
We as beta testers now have to center on performance and balance critiques. Any other ideas might as well be forwarded to a Spark Modder's email box.
If i hadnt known about NS1 i would probably really enjoy NS2 because it is better than any game out there. If i hadnt been included in the beta process i would have said this game isnt watered down, doesnt support hand holding, and is an intense team play game.
Unfortunately ignorance is bliss and i know better. I am truly sad we will never see a NS1 style game again till a developer takes a huge risk and makes it. Blame whatever or whoever you like for the decline in gaming (consoles, new "want it now" generation, or money hungry developers), but i thought UWE was different and wanted to do better for the gaming community. I don't blame them for the path they have taken, but if an "Indie" company wont even fight the good fight, who will?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was never about a lack of good intentions. UWE clearly has put metric tons of soul-energy into making NS2 great.
The problem is that they didn't do it right, re-make NS1 100% literally, and only then make their desired changes. It was a mistaken strategy, not something related to money or the market or anything else. They didn't fully leverage their assets.
I really wish this topic would have been posted in about a month. To maintain their estimated release date. they still have 3-4 of their 2 week patches to go. From what I've seen, the game can change RADICALLY from patch to patch. Not only this, but they are only just now focusing on performance in any serious fashion.
The most common reason people are dissatisfied with NS2 is the performance. Personally i have about 8 people (my old NS1 crew) waiting for performance to be resolved before they are even willing to try the game.
Let them fix the game first. Let them complete it to their vision of how it should run. After its all said and done, THEN a thread like this should be made.
The simple truth is NO ONE knows what direction the game is going and what is going to be changed in the near future, not even the internal PTs (i think).
Also, this thread will ONLY get biased viewpoints from NS1 players and if an old NS1 player is not satisfied with NS2, they most likely WILL NOT be browsing it's forums. Maybe once 1.0 is out, but not now.
<!--quoteo(post=1957697:date=Aug 5 2012, 05:07 PM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Aug 5 2012, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let them complete it to their vision of how it should run. After its all said and done, THEN a thread like this should be made.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, after the exos are in, don't you think the game will enter a feature-freeze soon after? We are only a 1-1.5 months away from release, there's really not a lot that can (or should) change anymore at this point. And after the game has hit retail, large alterations in the way the game works likely won't be made (these aren't the days of the HL1-mod anymore).
Typical play tester ignoring the overwhelming tone of the discussion to defends the devs..
I didn't make this thread to antagonize the developers I made it out of genuine concern that the game will flop.
The devs have to understand to justify a $35 price tag in today's game market a game has to exceptional it can't have bugs it can't have performance issues and the game play has to be massively awesome, NS2 is approaching GW2 money just think about that for a bit..
UWE made changes to things that made NS1 a hassle to play:
+Don't have to spend resources as a gorge to make critical team upgrades since Kharaa has a Khamander now +eliminates the res-whoring that NS1 had that made Aliens lose the advantage cuz no one wanted to spend res to Gorge and build chambers, or died while trying to build a resource tower that no one defended, thus losing 10 res for gorge AND 15 res for the Resource Tower they lost, and thus having to wait for the longest time to get enough res for lifeforms.
+Marines don't have to bother the Commander to get weapons when they can just buy it themselves and get the job done quicker (though the commander can still drop weapons anyway)
+Turtling is hardly an issue anymore these days (Turrets serve their purpose as a static support system, not a Marine replacement and Resources for Kills no longer exists, which gave NS1 Marine turtles a boost.)
+Marines have Sprint (NS1 marines had this quasi-bunny-hop maneuver which only the vet players knew how to execute)
+Skulks are way more maneuverable than their NS1 counter-parts due to Wall-Jumping (gives a small speed boost, which gives Skulks the ability to dodge AND close distance with Marines)
I could go on, but those are more than enough changes to make NS2 a clearly superior game in mechanics than NS1 will ever be. All that's needed now is the performance to be boosted.
<!--quoteo(post=1957694:date=Aug 5 2012, 04:58 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Aug 5 2012, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was never about a lack of good intentions. UWE clearly has put metric tons of soul-energy into making NS2 great.
The problem is that they didn't do it right, re-make NS1 100% literally, and only then make their desired changes. It was a mistaken strategy, not something related to money or the market or anything else. They didn't fully leverage their assets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not disagreeing with you, but we are at the point where "Should haves" are long past. We could discuss this at length and come out very educated on what should have happened but it wont help the game now.
We are kicking a very dead, very decomposed horse. All we gain is getting dirty for our efforts and being told we stink.
Comments
Don't get me wrong, I love vanilla NS, but sometimes I just don't feel like fourty minutes of coordination, teamplay and concentration, but just like some beating the hell out of eachother casually and a little e-peen comparison amongst teammates - especially after getting steamrolled in vanilla too many times due to horrible lack of teamplay on pubs.
I've never been a comp player. I'm just a casual and I'll always be one. I probably represent a significant part of the community and an equally significant source of revenue for the developers when I say:
Don't make this a die-hard competitive e-sports title. Give us the option to chose between the light-hearted fun-/training-mode and the complex "real deal". I equally enjoyed them, and stripping half of that feels like stripping half my fun.
Just responding "well, the game is highly moddable, make your own combat mode" doesn't satisfy me at all. Community created mods which you have to a) know and b) download from an external website tend disappear into oblivion due to notorious lack of players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there's already a community-made combat mod. it works pretty well.
You see, this is perfectly underlining my point. You HAVE to know what you're looking for, you HAVE to know it exists, you HAVE to look for it, you HAVE to download it from some external site. So what's with the players who never played NS before? How are they going to know about it? Do you want to rely on them browsing these forums or randomly hearing about it by accident? Will combat mode servers even appear on the server list when you don't have it installed? This all seems very unreliable to me. For all I know, this mod might very well be dead even before it's born... It's a huge difference of having a mode implemented in the standard game or not.
Well combat mode is server side if you're ok with not having GUI interface... To play, you only need to join a server that is running it. It might be called "NS2 Combat Server".
Regarding maps/client-side mods, i figure Steam workshop will be alot more transparent to access and use in the future. It is an alpha/beta afterall (lol)
*edit*
Oh in regard to OP, i was a pretty big pub noob in NS1 but i do remember movement being alot more fluid and sieging being a way better experience than the current ARC train style.
This seems like a halfway decent solution. My hope isn't lost completely. Will there be something like an ingame advertising feature for the most popular mods, somehow like they'd pulled it off in Star Craft 2? I'd really appreciate that.
I think they were looking for a programmer to work on steam workshop integration (saw that on a tweet maybe), so it seems it require some work.
Most games deal with this by using an external launcher. All you need really is wget and a bat file...
Slightly related to your earlier question, if NS2 tanks really hard, there will exist quite a large vacuum in the FPS\RTS-genre, and I may have an idea or 2 in that area...
At this point, I hope UWE just trucks on with whatever it is they're doing, and completely ignore the forums. Use the PTs and potentially ask a few select players for their opinions, and then we'll just have to see how it turns out in the end.
In reply to the OP: No, I don't know any NS1 players who are happy with NS2, as it currently is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A part of the problem are the play testers they have proven now as we can see the result in NS2 Beta 205 they are incompetent when it comes to giving feedback on gameplay aspects of the game, way to many massively broken things made it out into the wild that should have never made it past the play testers....
not that i'm a playtester or defending them here, but...do you have any ###### clue what you're talking about? because it sure doesn't seem like it.
Actually what he said makes a lot of sense, if something after being tested internally by the testers is extremely broken or bad, it should never be released to the public.
i tend to agree
who ever thought nanoconstruct was a good idea ?
lerk with bile bomb ?
no cooldown for nanoshield ?
gimping sentries until they are useless ?
celerity megaspeed ?
What iare the playtesters role actually ? are they merely there to find bugs ?
it would be nice is the devs did more poll's and asked the greater community before they made a change, it could save them alot of work.
who ever thought nanoconstruct was a good idea ?
lerk with bile bomb ?
no cooldown for nanoshield ?
gimping sentries until they are useless ?
celerity megaspeed ?
What iare the playtesters role actually ? are they merely there to find bugs ?
it would be nice is the devs did more poll's and asked the greater community before they made a change, it could save them alot of work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make the mistake of thinking playtesters have much more say than you do
*edit* you, yes YOU are the beta tester pool. don't forget that you're every part the playtester that these "internal playtesters" are, you just get a relatively less buggy version.
that is to say, we are the gameplay testers. so the onus is on YOU, the playtester, to raise issues with gameplay elements that aren't working. if enough of us complain about something, it gets changed (well aside from pet projects like a-khamm and power nodes).
I think that UWE deserves a lot of credit for how far they've come. But intuitively understanding how well certain features will work within the context of the game, or how certain features will benefit the game, has been one area where they have consistently and continue to come up lacking. To have a working prototype of a game, NS1, and change so much, was an eye opening risk. From where we stand now, it was clearly a mistake.
There is a lot of wisdom is continuing to do what works. Those who alter what has been proven to work have the burden of proving it will be an improvement. If not, you risk looking foolish.
This basic test is one that has been demonstrably unfavorable thus far.
As far as a pure game, graphics etc aside, there is a real chance that we have taken steps backward since 2002. That's a problem to lay squarely at the feet of the developers.
<!--quoteo(post=1957667:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:13 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 5 2012, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you also make the mistake of thinking that these beta patches are like patches to live games. of course the devs are going to try out different things to see if they work.
*edit* you, yes YOU are the beta tester pool. don't forget that you're every part the playtester that these "internal playtesters" are, you just get a relatively less buggy version.
that is to say, we are the gameplay testers. so the onus is on YOU, the playtester, to raise issues with gameplay elements that aren't working. if enough of us complain about something, it gets changed (well aside from pet projects like a-khamm and power nodes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't matter what a playtester says. Developers decide.
Developers make the hard choices. Playtesters can say "this is a bad idea. I do not like this. We should not go in this direction." No matter. It's not our choice to make. Our voices count as much as yours, if not less, because we are taken with a grain of salt, because we are so small in number.
There is a lot of wisdom is continuing to do what works. Those who alter what has been proven to work have the burden of proving it will be an improvement. If not, you risk looking foolish.
This basic test is one that has been demonstrably unfavorable thus far.
As far as a pure game, graphics etc aside, there is a real chance that we have taken steps backward since 2002. That's a problem to lay squarely at the feet of the developers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, i agree that ns1 was a much more cohesive game. that is why i am so puzzled at the devs' rush to push the game to release. it clearly isn't ready nor near the level of game that ns1 was. i'm not defending certain decisions of the dev team at all. but in many cases the devs HAVE changed the gameplay to suit forum feedback.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't matter what a playtester says. Developers decide.
Developers make the hard choices. Playtesters can say "this is a bad idea. I do not like this. We should not go in this direction." No matter. It's not our choice to make. Our voices count as much as yours, if not less, because we are taken with a grain of salt, because we are so small in number.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm not addressing you, i'm addressing the people complaining about internal playtesters not doing their job. i'm sure the playtester group is constantly giving feedback on which gameplay mechanics work and which ones don't. i'm just saying that the general public that is ALSO beta testing this game needs to step up and not lay all the responsibility at the feet of internal PT's.
I wouldn't put too much blame on the PTs for that. I used to be an internal PT myself and can tell you that it is very hard to convince the devs to change a feature of the game. Which is understandable, as it is their game so they have the last say on everything. Furthermore Charlie, who makes the majority of game design and balance decisions, was very rarely available for direct discussions in the PT chat room or TS. You just have to understand that balancing is not the main focus of the playtest team. However, the PTs do have some influence when UWE is actively searching for balance advice!
---
To return to the OP, a reason for why I find NS2 so disappointing, is that UWE has shown very little understanding of how NS1 played. Instead of preserving the aspects that worked well, they smashed them to pieces and created poor alternatives from the mess.
Yes, anybody who blames the internal PTs for anything, is crazy. This game would suffer from more of the problems it currently does, were it not for the vast majority of internal PTs who either played NS1 or have enough understanding of the day to day gameplay, enough hours under their belt, to offer solid feedback.
Blame the devs for being too busy, or too understaffed, but most of all for trying to "do something new", instead of learning from the classics. This is a common mistake in art.
Blame the devs for being too busy, or too understaffed, but most of all for trying to "do something new", instead of learning from the classics. This is a common mistake in art.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i get the sense that flayra gets wrapped up in a bubble of "this is a cool idea, let's do it" and forget that the best game isn't a game that includes all the cool ideas, it's one that takes a few of them and does them extremely well.
If you have not already, I'd suggest watching Indie Game - The movie which is a documentary about the insane amount of hardships that startups have to go through to make their dream games become reality.
No, NS2 might not have the amazing responsiveness of netcode that goldsrc had yet, and no, the game might not live up to the 3.0+ version that everyone loves to compare it to that took a year+ after NS1 1.0 was released to get there.. NS2 is a new game with a lot of new mechanics and a totally new engine and it will take probably just as long to make it to that level of balance and performance. We don't even have the feature-complete build of NS2, I don't get why many NS1 players stomp all over this game because it's not perfect yet.
But even so, look at the human side? - It's such a small group of guys working tirelessly on their dream game for <i>years</i> without any promise of grandure or profit and they want it to be a success more than any of us.
guess what I'm saying is.. give them a break maybe? I think they have done a really great job so far and I hope that NS2 can become a game the NS1 players will come to love eventually. Plus... what else are you going to play? the market is full of nothing but terrible games in terms of team based shooters.. especially with the unique RTS twist NS2 has, I'll still play it even if it's not perfect yet.
*edit* you, yes YOU are the beta tester pool. don't forget that you're every part the playtester that these "internal playtesters" are, you just get a relatively less buggy version.
that is to say, we are the gameplay testers. so the onus is on YOU, the playtester, to raise issues with gameplay elements that aren't working. if enough of us complain about something, it gets changed (well aside from pet projects like a-khamm and power nodes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can.. can we give Wheee an award of some kind?
<!--quoteo(post=1957532:date=Aug 5 2012, 03:58 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 5 2012, 03:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The play tester are just far to big a fanboys to give UWE proper harsh criticisms where its needed instead<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) You clearly don't know what you're talking about *looks in campfire and internal forums*
b) I love how the subjective nature of "where its needed" only applies to your vision of how the game should be designed..
If you have not already, I'd suggest watching Indie Game - The movie which is a documentary about the insane amount of hardships that startups have to go through to make their dream games become reality.
No, NS2 might not have the amazing responsiveness of netcode that goldsrc had yet, and no, the game might not live up to the 3.0+ version that everyone loves to compare it to that took a year+ after NS1 1.0 was released to get there.. NS2 is a new game with a lot of new mechanics and a totally new engine and it will take probably just as long to make it to that level of balance and performance. We don't even have the feature-complete build of NS2, I don't get why many NS1 players stomp all over this game because it's not perfect yet.
But even so, look at the human side? - It's such a small group of guys working tirelessly on their dream game for <i>years</i> without any promise of grandure or profit and they want it to be a success more than any of us.
guess what I'm saying is.. give them a break maybe? I think they have done a really great job so far and I hope that NS2 can become a game the NS1 players will come to love eventually. Plus... what else are you going to play? the market is full of nothing but terrible games in terms of team based shooters.. especially with the unique RTS twist NS2 has, I'll still play it even if it's not perfect yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks mate! That sums up what I think.
How can you compare a very mature mod with an unreleased, unfinished, unbalanced product?
Normally the person who says, "I could have suggested a better path to design this game" is a fool. But when you have NS1, and you overlook a working functional prototype to the extent we have now, it's an unforced error. There is no reason it had to be like this. It was a bit of arrogance, of over zealousness, of disrespect. There was not enough respect in the design process for the years that went into that game. Instead, we're pouring years into this one, we're chasing our tails, just trying to keep up.
Somebody failed.
We as beta testers now have to center on performance and balance critiques. Any other ideas might as well be forwarded to a Spark Modder's email box.
If i hadnt known about NS1 i would probably really enjoy NS2 because it is better than any game out there. If i hadnt been included in the beta process i would have said this game isnt watered down, doesnt support hand holding, and is an intense team play game.
Unfortunately ignorance is bliss and i know better. I am truly sad we will never see a NS1 style game again till a developer takes a huge risk and makes it. Blame whatever or whoever you like for the decline in gaming (consoles, new "want it now" generation, or money hungry developers), but i thought UWE was different and wanted to do better for the gaming community. I don't blame them for the path they have taken, but if an "Indie" company wont even fight the good fight, who will?
We as beta testers now have to center on performance and balance critiques. Any other ideas might as well be forwarded to a Spark Modder's email box.
If i hadnt known about NS1 i would probably really enjoy NS2 because it is better than any game out there. If i hadnt been included in the beta process i would have said this game isnt watered down, doesnt support hand holding, and is an intense team play game.
Unfortunately ignorance is bliss and i know better. I am truly sad we will never see a NS1 style game again till a developer takes a huge risk and makes it. Blame whatever or whoever you like for the decline in gaming (consoles, new "want it now" generation, or money hungry developers), but i thought UWE was different and wanted to do better for the gaming community. I don't blame them for the path they have taken, but if an "Indie" company wont even fight the good fight, who will?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was never about a lack of good intentions. UWE clearly has put metric tons of soul-energy into making NS2 great.
The problem is that they didn't do it right, re-make NS1 100% literally, and only then make their desired changes. It was a mistaken strategy, not something related to money or the market or anything else. They didn't fully leverage their assets.
The most common reason people are dissatisfied with NS2 is the performance. Personally i have about 8 people (my old NS1 crew) waiting for performance to be resolved before they are even willing to try the game.
Let them fix the game first. Let them complete it to their vision of how it should run. After its all said and done, THEN a thread like this should be made.
The simple truth is NO ONE knows what direction the game is going and what is going to be changed in the near future, not even the internal PTs (i think).
Also, this thread will ONLY get biased viewpoints from NS1 players and if an old NS1 player is not satisfied with NS2, they most likely WILL NOT be browsing it's forums. Maybe once 1.0 is out, but not now.
Well, after the exos are in, don't you think the game will enter a feature-freeze soon after? We are only a 1-1.5 months away from release, there's really not a lot that can (or should) change anymore at this point. And after the game has hit retail, large alterations in the way the game works likely won't be made (these aren't the days of the HL1-mod anymore).
I didn't make this thread to antagonize the developers I made it out of genuine concern that the game will flop.
The devs have to understand to justify a $35 price tag in today's game market a game has to exceptional it can't have bugs it can't have performance issues and the game play has to be massively awesome, NS2 is approaching GW2 money just think about that for a bit..
+Don't have to spend resources as a gorge to make critical team upgrades since Kharaa has a Khamander now
+eliminates the res-whoring that NS1 had that made Aliens lose the advantage cuz no one wanted to spend res to Gorge and build chambers, or died while trying to build a resource tower that no one defended, thus losing 10 res for gorge AND 15 res for the Resource Tower they lost, and thus having to wait for the longest time to get enough res for lifeforms.
+Marines don't have to bother the Commander to get weapons when they can just buy it themselves and get the job done quicker (though the commander can still drop weapons anyway)
+Turtling is hardly an issue anymore these days (Turrets serve their purpose as a static support system, not a Marine replacement and Resources for Kills no longer exists, which gave NS1 Marine turtles a boost.)
+Marines have Sprint (NS1 marines had this quasi-bunny-hop maneuver which only the vet players knew how to execute)
+Skulks are way more maneuverable than their NS1 counter-parts due to Wall-Jumping (gives a small speed boost, which gives Skulks the ability to dodge AND close distance with Marines)
I could go on, but those are more than enough changes to make NS2 a clearly superior game in mechanics than NS1 will ever be. All that's needed now is the performance to be boosted.
The problem is that they didn't do it right, re-make NS1 100% literally, and only then make their desired changes. It was a mistaken strategy, not something related to money or the market or anything else. They didn't fully leverage their assets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not disagreeing with you, but we are at the point where "Should haves" are long past. We could discuss this at length and come out very educated on what should have happened but it wont help the game now.
We are kicking a very dead, very decomposed horse. All we gain is getting dirty for our efforts and being told we stink.