As a compromise between wanting to require hives for teching up and wanting to allow for build diversity, how about instead of allowing <ul><li>all aliens at T1</li><li>T1 unlocks with 1 hive</li><li>all T2 with 2 hives</li><li>all T3 unlocks with 3 hives</li></ul>
that instead each hive has a number of points that can be spent on unlocks, and both advanced aliens (fade, onos, maybe lerk) and extra abilities for aliens cost unlock points.
So you could 'rush onos' on one base but your aliens will have to live without leap, umbra, etc. giving the classic tradeoff between army strength and tech development, and your onoses won't have all their abilities (I'm assuming Onos will eventually have a larger ability list than they do right now). Or you could focus on early game power and go for Leap and Umbra, but then being stuck without fade and onos until you can pick up a second hive.
This is also scout-able which is important for depth in an rts. If the marines notice skulks aren't leaping, they know the khammander is putting his time into other things and can prepare to counter.
How about we limit Marines too? Say Marines can only upgrade armor with one tech and they require a second com chair if they want to upgrade weapons. One weapon unlock per com chair too.
How about we limit Marines too? Say Marines can only upgrade armor with one tech and they require a second com chair if they want to upgrade weapons. One weapon unlock per com chair too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can't because the goal of the game is to keep asymmetry... There are other ways around this, though. Costs, research time, among other things...
Marines already have a fairly standard RTS tech tree. Building A has enhancements 1, 2, and 3, and also unlocks buildings B (which has enhancements 4 and 5), as well as building C which has 6 and 7, etc.
The alien tech tree is much stranger because we don't have buildings like that, and so can't follow a normal rts tech tree.
<!--quoteo(post=1947162:date=Jun 27 2012, 09:57 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jun 27 2012, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien tech tree is much stranger because we don't have buildings like that, and so can't follow a normal rts tech tree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why Aliens are painful, boring, terrible once they hit late game because they don't have the benefits of stronger tech as the game progresses.
What you are proposing is making them even more painful, boring, terrible by limiting their already very limited tech, which a handful of them are useless as it is.
I think its also important to note in a game like NS2 if both teams can tech fully without requiring expansions, you can quite easily end up in situations where its tier 3 vs tier 3 for extended periods of time. Since both teams can get their tier 3 on one base you need to balance those abilities so they are not nearly as powerful (otherwise the game is basically turtle till tier 3 then win). Then you end up with a game that plays somewhat like NS2 does now, where aliens and marines get all their tech and the game just drags...and drags. By making it so map control is needed for those abilities, you can also make them more influential in term of power. If marines turtle to try and tech for too long the aliens get their tier 3 abilities and can win.. But it also allows for more creative strats where marines can try fast tech to pressure the second hive after it goes up, or more standard ones where you pressure while its building. Also just because the abilities require a second hive does not mean it will play at all like NS1, where you always knew exactly when to expect the hive drop, and if you could reasonably siege it or sg push, or if you needed to try to out tech the aliens. With the resources separate aliens could be much more creative, dropping maybe only 1 rt then the hive, or maybe going for mass harvesters and trying crazy things like a double hive drop... or they could play more standard with 3rts upgrades hive...
I think a lot of people think of tying abilities to hives and immediately think of pub NS1 where it was common for the alien team to just f4 if the second hive died... Even in NS1 losing the second hive was not a guaranteed lose, and I think it will not nearly be as much of a game decider in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1947170:date=Jun 27 2012, 10:32 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jun 27 2012, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is why Aliens are painful, boring, terrible once they hit late game because they don't have the benefits of stronger tech as the game progresses.
What you are proposing is making them even more painful, boring, terrible by limiting their already very limited tech, which a handful of them are useless as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would think the solution then would be to improve the upgrades so they're all worth taking, and then setting up a system that allows them to be enabled slowly and with purpose. I took a stab at such a system.
<!--quoteo(post=1947180:date=Jun 27 2012, 11:09 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jun 27 2012, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would think the solution then would be to<b> improve the upgrades so they're all worth taking</b>, and then setting up a system that allows them to be enabled slowly and with purpose. I took a stab at such a system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct. But they also need to improve throughout the game as well in the same manner that Marines improve through weapon and armor upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=1947188:date=Jun 27 2012, 11:45 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jun 27 2012, 11:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947188"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Correct. But they also need to improve throughout the game as well in the same manner that Marines improve through weapon and armor upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree there. I think it will be difficult if not impossible to balance if one side has built-in basic upgrades to core damage/hp and the other does not.
For all the diversity of the starcraft races, they still all have attack and armor upgrades. Give both marines and aliens the basic weapons 1/2/3 and armor 1/2/3, and then give both sides qualitative upgrades ontop of those (motion tracking, celerity, etc.)
<!--quoteo(post=1947147:date=Jun 28 2012, 12:20 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 28 2012, 12:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, then you'll like this then too: we're also experimenting with marines needing 2 Command Stations to build a Prototype Lab. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like the sound of where your going with this then, the aliens lifeforms being tied to hive count was kinda fun. I have found I enjoyed the upgrades being tied too (though feel this does somewhat limit the aliens more than marines who dont ever lose their armor upgrades...but an alien might have to chose between cara and regen or celerity).
Having both sides need atleast 2 hives/command stations to get all their tech seems like a great way to draw out early/mid game. If the lose removes access to any tech then it could also help speed up end game when aliens are winning (can be tedious)
I think that perhaps shotguns or GL's should require a 2nd comm chair too or even arcs. If aliens have that much infestation and marines only have 1 tech point/comm chair...should they not have already lost (albeit with an absence of a real alien game finisher) and therefor should not be able to access arcs? Will solve the issue of marines simply turtling until they can arc train from 1 base (force them to hold 2 points if they want to do this).
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1947159:date=Jun 27 2012, 06:48 PM:name=Sannom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sannom @ Jun 27 2012, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We can't because the goal of the game is to keep asymmetry... There are other ways around this, though. Costs, research time, among other things...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Argh.. this really shouldn't be used to justify every single thing/imbalance/removal of features or parity.
Its widely known that the alien commander was implemented because as stated by Charlie, the <b><u>resource model needs to be symmetric.</u> </b>(hence the same income rates for both sides and equal access to TPs as a mapping guideline) Else you end up with a nightmare to balance, and even if you were able to with hard work (looks at ns1) it still pigeonholes the tactics of each side: Marines try to stop 2nd hive while aliens pressure RTs. <i><b>Instead </b>of aliens also attempting to stop 2nd cc.</i>
Symmetry must occur for the resource model, which includes what resources give you, the winning mechanic of: Tech. <b>Without equal access to tech the game favors one side</b>, obviously. This could be an Onos at 1 minute in the game, or it can be loss of map control leading to loss of tech for only one side..
The resource model and mechanic required for winning (map control/tech) need to be symmetric - and then from there you can throw that asymmetric ball at everything down to gameplay, visuals, sounds, fov etc. <!--quoteo(post=1947177:date=Jun 27 2012, 07:57 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 27 2012, 07:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947177"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think its also important to note in a game like NS2 if both teams can tech fully without requiring expansions, you can quite easily end up in situations where its tier 3 vs tier 3 for extended periods of time. Since both teams can get their tier 3 on one base you need to balance those abilities so they are not nearly as powerful (otherwise the game is basically turtle till tier 3 then win). Then you end up with a game that plays somewhat like NS2 does now, where aliens and marines get all their tech and the game just drags...and drags.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I .... I..think we just.. agreed on something, finally. *looks around unsure of his world*
<!--quoteo(post=1947147:date=Jun 27 2012, 07:20 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 27 2012, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, then you'll like this then too: we're also experimenting with marines needing 2 Command Stations to build a Prototype Lab. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah this is good. Its unfair to force aliens to have multiple hives while marines only ever have 1.
The resource models should be similar, but I disagree that the tech/map control should be the same. Since each team plays so differently they need to have their tech paths balanced around that somewhat. Aliens are much better at map control, allowing them to turtle (relatively speaking) is effectively balancing the game in their favor. You can then change how aliens play to balance the game that way, but honestly that makes the play boring (to me) as both sides will play very differently, but the tech paths will be very similar. I think NS1 proved that the game can be balanced around the play styles for those sides, with aliens honestly being overpowered most versions.
Its also my opinion that it will be easier to balance the game around the specific playstyles for the sides, and will lead to more varied and interesting gameplay.
Tieing proto to the second CC while not be a huge balance issue IMO, but nothing else should be tied in my opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1947121:date=Jun 27 2012, 07:17 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jun 27 2012, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good RTS games are about expanding (and trying to punish expansion in some way or another), or the opposite (not expanding for some momentary gain, trying to survive the resulting attack and getting ahead)
I can't think of a good RTS game where it's the norm to stay on 1 base forever, get and use a full tech tree, but that happens all the time in NS2 because of how the tech trees work.
Tying tech to number of hives/chairs is a really fake and roundabout way of achieving this, when the real problem is that "mining from a new part of the map" costs less than "making the most basic structure" - again, I can't think of a good RTS where this is true either<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'n a normal game you still have to expand by building phase-gates in another location to get some map-control. But I agree that turtleing in one base should never be a valid strategy.
<!--quoteo(post=1947147:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:20 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 27 2012, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, then you'll like this then too: we're also experimenting with marines needing 2 Command Stations to build a Prototype Lab. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, that sounds interesting. Looking forward to the results :)
I agree that tying abilities to second hive might reduce the strategic depth, I had this argument about that as not really been answered:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason for untying abilities from hives is to give the alien comm more choices, more strategy. It doesn't work for some the following reason:
- Aliens are a class based team, their main tech are lifeforms. Due to the resource system, the lifeforms are unlocked in a rigid time sequence. Therefor the abilities will be unlocked in the same sequence. There is no point to research stomp or blink before leap. This cannot be changed without changing the alien economy completely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess you could still do leap first, spikes first, or bilebomb first. Three choices. However since the second hive is sub-critical with untied abilities, it also removes one choice: there is no much point going hive first, instead of upgrade or ability first. While when second hive was important there was several build order variations, hive first, two rts then hive, upgrade first, safe hive with pres hydras , ...
So untied abilities seems to really bring two additional build orders, at the cost of loosing second hive fights.
*
I wouldn't mind trying one more build with untied abilities, but with rebalanced costs and timings, considering these kind of problems:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a six player team you often have only one lerk and four skulks, so spikes should be four time more efficient, or cheaper to justify getting it instead of leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*
I would also advice to go one solution or the other, but not doing a mix of both, that is if you tie again abilities to hive, make them unlock automatically instead of researchable. I don't really like these middle-ground solutions that have the problems of both extremes.
I like tying lifeform augmentation to number of hives, but I really don't think it's a good idea for Marines. In addition, I'm a little worried early game is going to have few choices for both sides now, though that will depend on whether/how they fix the economy in addition to these changes I suppose.
Lastly, I'd like to raise the point that while requiring a second CC/hive is a good thing in theory, map design for Ns 2 has pretty much watered down the effects that this will have on a game. I.e both sides, on at least 2/4 maps start with 2 sometimes 3 UNCONTESTED tech points, i.e tech points that are going to be either too far from the other side to effectively lock down early in the game. It's really important this is addressed, if you truly want this to work. (Mineshaft get 2 tech points for free, as do aliens, making only crushing the only real 'contested' tech point)
<!--quoteo(post=1947177:date=Jun 28 2012, 04:57 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 28 2012, 04:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947177"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think its also important to note in a game like NS2 if both teams can tech fully without requiring expansions, you can quite easily end up in situations where its tier 3 vs tier 3 for extended periods of time. Since both teams can get their tier 3 on one base you need to balance those abilities so they are not nearly as powerful (otherwise the game is basically turtle till tier 3 then win).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are other ways to solve this tho if it becomes a problem. One thing would be to make the techpoints increase efficiency of the resnodes by 30% for example. If you see the aliens turtle you can counter it by expanding aggressivly and you will get the upper hand.
Turtleing will only be possible when the costs are off like the whip and sentry costs are at the moment and free hydras is bad for this aswell.
Tying protolab to CCs is a bad thing aswell because that means marines will always have to go for phasegates to be able to defend it.
They should really try giving this techtree another chance with better numbers before going back to linear gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1947260:date=Jun 28 2012, 05:47 AM:name=Skuggan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skuggan @ Jun 28 2012, 05:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tying protolab to CCs is a bad thing aswell because that means marines will always have to go for phasegates to be able to defend it.
They should really try giving this techtree another chance with better numbers before going back to linear gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines always need phasegates to win the game (unless they rush earlygame), the question is when. Usually you only need proto for mid- to lategame, so still a lot of options.
<!--quoteo(post=1947266:date=Jun 28 2012, 06:12 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Jun 28 2012, 06:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about, rather than making all tier 2 abilities tied to the 2nd hive and tier 3 tied to the 3rd hive
why not, tie alien abilities to the hive types, ie. leap/blink to shift hive, stomp/spike to crag hive
something like that ? :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even harder to balance
I wouldnt say phasegates are mandatory, it just depends on how well aliens/your team does... you can(and ppl did) win close spawn scenarios that go into mid to lategame without phasegates.
But with the need of a 2nd cc for stuff like jetpacks, this is not viable anymore ... you cant just go a risky route and skip phasegates for earlier jetpacks or whatever. You need phasegates first, to be able to hold the 2nd cc => more linear tech path.
Ok, there might be cases like this where you don't need them. My point was more about how it doesn't just result into "linear gameplay" if you need a 2. CC for protolab and in some cases you might not even a phasegate to defend your second base.
I don't want to defend the whole idea of getting additional CCs, I'm also very reluctant about it, just trying to paint the whole picture.
<!--quoteo(post=1947095:date=Jun 27 2012, 06:18 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 27 2012, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to be clear, tying that stuff to Hives is not going back to the automatic "leap at hive 2" way that it worked originally. The commander still will have to make the choice to research it or not, and decide if its necessary for the team to have first over a different tier 2 ability.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats great!!
Though, the wannabe game developer in me has to make sure you've taken into consideration. The sole balancing board on "Should I research Leap? Is Leap worth taking now?"
is
"No other abilities really seem worth it in the current meta. Of course I'm going to take leap as first upgrade, I do every time because its the only thing worth getting that gives me an edge first upgrade chance I get."
I know Flayra said
<!--quoteo(post=1947059:date=Jun 27 2012, 04:48 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 27 2012, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah I largely agree. There has been a lot of experimenting with the alien upgrade system in an effort to make a more elegant system with more options, but I think the time for more experimenting is past.
So I think we'll probably end up by tying Tier 2 (eg, Leap) to 2 hives and Tier 3 (eg, Stomp) to 3 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which I think is a better option. Having an upgrade system like this where the commander will always choose leap first because at this current point nothing else matters. It keeps leap naturally a mid game ability, rather than a early game. I like the idea of the khamm getting this kind of upgrade meta to choose this master upgrade path for the aliens.. tieing it to Hives is a good idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1947113:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:00 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 27 2012, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only problem there was is that some stuff - like leap gets way too early into the game, which could be balanced by the maturing mechanic. (the time it takes to mature needs to take into account having a alien commander go gorge and speed it up, so to actually make the maturing process really fast it would need the commander and maybe even an additional player to gorge -> meaning 1 less player on the field which would make early pressure much harder - but still viable for certain strategies to do)
The hive 2 stuff really enforces aliens to a much more predictable build order, and its quite sad to hear that we will go back to this mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't the only problem though.
The fact that aliens could get full game tech off of 1 base is a problem. The fact that you can get xenocide, primal scream, vortex, etc, off of 1 base is a huge problem. You can have lerks with umbra 3 minutes into the game.
I would personally love to see second hives be important to teching. This doesn't make gameplay predictable, this actually opens up more strategies for both teams. Do the aliens want to focus on RTs -- get 4-5 up and then drop a second hive? Or do the aliens want to rush second hive off 2-3 RTs? Do marines want to plan their timings for second hive with phase gates or shotguns? Or do marines want to focus on securing their own RTs -- powering up while ignoring an obviously heavily defended second hive? Or perhaps the marines want to ignore the hive, control few RTs (2-3), and hit the alien RTs while they defend their hives?
Way more depth to forcing a second hive (or even second CC!) for higher level tech.
<!--quoteo(post=1947124:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:21 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 27 2012, 08:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know that forcing aliens on the 2nd hive also makes marine strategies much more predictable? Since you know aliens are depending on the 2nd hive - and losing it can pretty much mean gameover for them?
The way i see it, is we are back on...
2rts hive carapace
vs.
PG GL rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your argument is basically going:
2nd hive is needed to advance in tech -> aliens are predictable This is similar to saying: Tres is needed to tech -> aliens are predictable
Then: aliens are predictable -> gameplay is stale
And then you're asserting this as if somehow a 2nd hive being unimportant leads to diversity which is unsupported by your argument. There is ALWAYS going to be a standard way to play. You see that now with leap -> couple RTs -> carapace. If the game is "predictable" (by your definition) right now, then how are you blaming it on 2nd hive being required to tech? 2nd hive being important actually opens up more avenues for both aliens and marines to play. It also gives a focus for early -> midgame transition instead of constant RT harassing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"No other abilities really seem worth it in the current meta. Of course I'm going to take leap as first upgrade, I do every time because its the only thing worth getting that gives me an edge first upgrade chance I get."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is no longer going to be the case, provided spikes are buffed and second hive (with or without maturation?) takes at least a good chunk of the early game, by the time second hive abilities DO become available more lifeforms will also be available to the player. As a result, leap is not going to be a no brainer first research, when you may already have a good amount of lerks or fades on your team. Heck even bilebomb may become an interesting option at that point if by the time the second hive comes out you need to get something to break en enemy forward position.
I'm pretty confident the second hive T2 abilities will work out much better, and provide the commander with real choices. That is, provided you aren't able to get a second hive 2 minutes into the game
AiorosJoin Date: 2003-03-24Member: 14850Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Leap still is broken so early into the game.for only 25 res. At least change the cost to 35, so aliens cant expand so fast as a trade off .... right now u can still get 2-3 rts in an instant with leap aswell
I'm pretty sure they didn't intend on fixing it this build, they said they will lifeform abilities to second and 3rd hive, so that's obviously only going to be the case in 213. The price differentiation is a good idea though, but obviously we will need to await 213. (And I would agree that it's likely still going to be too cheap)
Comments
<ul><li>all aliens at T1</li><li>T1 unlocks with 1 hive</li><li>all T2 with 2 hives</li><li>all T3 unlocks with 3 hives</li></ul>
that instead each hive has a number of points that can be spent on unlocks, and both advanced aliens (fade, onos, maybe lerk) and extra abilities for aliens cost unlock points.
So you could 'rush onos' on one base but your aliens will have to live without leap, umbra, etc. giving the classic tradeoff between army strength and tech development, and your onoses won't have all their abilities (I'm assuming Onos will eventually have a larger ability list than they do right now). Or you could focus on early game power and go for Leap and Umbra, but then being stuck without fade and onos until you can pick up a second hive.
This is also scout-able which is important for depth in an rts. If the marines notice skulks aren't leaping, they know the khammander is putting his time into other things and can prepare to counter.
How about we limit Marines too? Say Marines can only upgrade armor with one tech and they require a second com chair if they want to upgrade weapons. One weapon unlock per com chair too.
How about we limit Marines too? Say Marines can only upgrade armor with one tech and they require a second com chair if they want to upgrade weapons. One weapon unlock per com chair too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can't because the goal of the game is to keep asymmetry... There are other ways around this, though. Costs, research time, among other things...
The alien tech tree is much stranger because we don't have buildings like that, and so can't follow a normal rts tech tree.
Which is why Aliens are painful, boring, terrible once they hit late game because they don't have the benefits of stronger tech as the game progresses.
What you are proposing is making them even more painful, boring, terrible by limiting their already very limited tech, which a handful of them are useless as it is.
I think a lot of people think of tying abilities to hives and immediately think of pub NS1 where it was common for the alien team to just f4 if the second hive died... Even in NS1 losing the second hive was not a guaranteed lose, and I think it will not nearly be as much of a game decider in NS2.
What you are proposing is making them even more painful, boring, terrible by limiting their already very limited tech, which a handful of them are useless as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would think the solution then would be to improve the upgrades so they're all worth taking, and then setting up a system that allows them to be enabled slowly and with purpose. I took a stab at such a system.
Correct. But they also need to improve throughout the game as well in the same manner that Marines improve through weapon and armor upgrades.
I agree there. I think it will be difficult if not impossible to balance if one side has built-in basic upgrades to core damage/hp and the other does not.
For all the diversity of the starcraft races, they still all have attack and armor upgrades. Give both marines and aliens the basic weapons 1/2/3 and armor 1/2/3, and then give both sides qualitative upgrades ontop of those (motion tracking, celerity, etc.)
I like the sound of where your going with this then, the aliens lifeforms being tied to hive count was kinda fun. I have found I enjoyed the upgrades being tied too (though feel this does somewhat limit the aliens more than marines who dont ever lose their armor upgrades...but an alien might have to chose between cara and regen or celerity).
Having both sides need atleast 2 hives/command stations to get all their tech seems like a great way to draw out early/mid game.
If the lose removes access to any tech then it could also help speed up end game when aliens are winning (can be tedious)
I think that perhaps shotguns or GL's should require a 2nd comm chair too or even arcs.
If aliens have that much infestation and marines only have 1 tech point/comm chair...should they not have already lost (albeit with an absence of a real alien game finisher) and therefor should not be able to access arcs?
Will solve the issue of marines simply turtling until they can arc train from 1 base (force them to hold 2 points if they want to do this).
Argh.. this really shouldn't be used to justify every single thing/imbalance/removal of features or parity.
Its widely known that the alien commander was implemented because as stated by Charlie, the <b><u>resource model needs to be symmetric.</u> </b>(hence the same income rates for both sides and equal access to TPs as a mapping guideline) Else you end up with a nightmare to balance, and even if you were able to with hard work (looks at ns1) it still pigeonholes the tactics of each side: Marines try to stop 2nd hive while aliens pressure RTs. <i><b>Instead </b>of aliens also attempting to stop 2nd cc.</i>
Symmetry must occur for the resource model, which includes what resources give you, the winning mechanic of: Tech. <b>Without equal access to tech the game favors one side</b>, obviously. This could be an Onos at 1 minute in the game, or it can be loss of map control leading to loss of tech for only one side..
The resource model and mechanic required for winning (map control/tech) need to be symmetric - and then from there you can throw that asymmetric ball at everything down to gameplay, visuals, sounds, fov etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1947177:date=Jun 27 2012, 07:57 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 27 2012, 07:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947177"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think its also important to note in a game like NS2 if both teams can tech fully without requiring expansions, you can quite easily end up in situations where its tier 3 vs tier 3 for extended periods of time. Since both teams can get their tier 3 on one base you need to balance those abilities so they are not nearly as powerful (otherwise the game is basically turtle till tier 3 then win). Then you end up with a game that plays somewhat like NS2 does now, where aliens and marines get all their tech and the game just drags...and drags.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I .... I..think we just.. agreed on something, finally. *looks around unsure of his world*
Ah this is good. Its unfair to force aliens to have multiple hives while marines only ever have 1.
Its also my opinion that it will be easier to balance the game around the specific playstyles for the sides, and will lead to more varied and interesting gameplay.
Tieing proto to the second CC while not be a huge balance issue IMO, but nothing else should be tied in my opinion.
I can't think of a good RTS game where it's the norm to stay on 1 base forever, get and use a full tech tree, but that happens all the time in NS2 because of how the tech trees work.
Tying tech to number of hives/chairs is a really fake and roundabout way of achieving this, when the real problem is that "mining from a new part of the map" costs less than "making the most basic structure" - again, I can't think of a good RTS where this is true either<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'n a normal game you still have to expand by building phase-gates in another location to get some map-control. But I agree that turtleing in one base should never be a valid strategy.
<!--quoteo(post=1947147:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:20 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 27 2012, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, then you'll like this then too: we're also experimenting with marines needing 2 Command Stations to build a Prototype Lab. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, that sounds interesting. Looking forward to the results :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason for untying abilities from hives is to give the alien comm more choices, more strategy. It doesn't work for some the following reason:
- Aliens are a class based team, their main tech are lifeforms. Due to the resource system, the lifeforms are unlocked in a rigid time sequence. Therefor the abilities will be unlocked in the same sequence. There is no point to research stomp or blink before leap. This cannot be changed without changing the alien economy completely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess you could still do leap first, spikes first, or bilebomb first. Three choices.
However since the second hive is sub-critical with untied abilities, it also removes one choice: there is no much point going hive first, instead of upgrade or ability first.
While when second hive was important there was several build order variations, hive first, two rts then hive, upgrade first, safe hive with pres hydras , ...
So untied abilities seems to really bring two additional build orders, at the cost of loosing second hive fights.
*
I wouldn't mind trying one more build with untied abilities, but with rebalanced costs and timings, considering these kind of problems:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a six player team you often have only one lerk and four skulks, so spikes should be four time more efficient, or cheaper to justify getting it instead of leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*
I would also advice to go one solution or the other, but not doing a mix of both, that is if you tie again abilities to hive, make them unlock automatically instead of researchable. I don't really like these
middle-ground solutions that have the problems of both extremes.
Lastly, I'd like to raise the point that while requiring a second CC/hive is a good thing in theory, map design for Ns 2 has pretty much watered down the effects that this will have on a game. I.e both sides, on at least 2/4 maps start with 2 sometimes 3 UNCONTESTED tech points, i.e tech points that are going to be either too far from the other side to effectively lock down early in the game. It's really important this is addressed, if you truly want this to work. (Mineshaft get 2 tech points for free, as do aliens, making only crushing the only real 'contested' tech point)
There are other ways to solve this tho if it becomes a problem. One thing would be to make the techpoints increase efficiency of the resnodes by 30% for example.
If you see the aliens turtle you can counter it by expanding aggressivly and you will get the upper hand.
Turtleing will only be possible when the costs are off like the whip and sentry costs are at the moment and free hydras is bad for this aswell.
Tying protolab to CCs is a bad thing aswell because that means marines will always have to go for phasegates to be able to defend it.
They should really try giving this techtree another chance with better numbers before going back to linear gameplay.
why not, tie alien abilities to the hive types, ie. leap/blink to shift hive, stomp/spike to crag hive
something like that ? :)
They should really try giving this techtree another chance with better numbers before going back to linear gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines always need phasegates to win the game (unless they rush earlygame), the question is when. Usually you only need proto for mid- to lategame, so still a lot of options.
<!--quoteo(post=1947266:date=Jun 28 2012, 06:12 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Jun 28 2012, 06:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about, rather than making all tier 2 abilities tied to the 2nd hive and tier 3 tied to the 3rd hive
why not, tie alien abilities to the hive types, ie. leap/blink to shift hive, stomp/spike to crag hive
something like that ? :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even harder to balance
But with the need of a 2nd cc for stuff like jetpacks, this is not viable anymore ... you cant just go a risky route and skip phasegates for earlier jetpacks or whatever. You need phasegates first, to be able to hold the 2nd cc => more linear tech path.
I don't want to defend the whole idea of getting additional CCs, I'm also very reluctant about it, just trying to paint the whole picture.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats great!!
Though, the wannabe game developer in me has to make sure you've taken into consideration. The sole balancing board on "Should I research Leap? Is Leap worth taking now?"
is
"No other abilities really seem worth it in the current meta. Of course I'm going to take leap as first upgrade, I do every time because its the only thing worth getting that gives me an edge first upgrade chance I get."
I know Flayra said
<!--quoteo(post=1947059:date=Jun 27 2012, 04:48 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 27 2012, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah I largely agree. There has been a lot of experimenting with the alien upgrade system in an effort to make a more elegant system with more options, but I think the time for more experimenting is past.
So I think we'll probably end up by tying Tier 2 (eg, Leap) to 2 hives and Tier 3 (eg, Stomp) to 3 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which I think is a better option. Having an upgrade system like this where the commander will always choose leap first because at this current point nothing else matters. It keeps leap naturally a mid game ability, rather than a early game. I like the idea of the khamm getting this kind of upgrade meta to choose this master upgrade path for the aliens.. tieing it to Hives is a good idea.
The hive 2 stuff really enforces aliens to a much more predictable build order, and its quite sad to hear that we will go back to this mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't the only problem though.
The fact that aliens could get full game tech off of 1 base is a problem. The fact that you can get xenocide, primal scream, vortex, etc, off of 1 base is a huge problem. You can have lerks with umbra 3 minutes into the game.
I would personally love to see second hives be important to teching. This doesn't make gameplay predictable, this actually opens up more strategies for both teams. Do the aliens want to focus on RTs -- get 4-5 up and then drop a second hive? Or do the aliens want to rush second hive off 2-3 RTs? Do marines want to plan their timings for second hive with phase gates or shotguns? Or do marines want to focus on securing their own RTs -- powering up while ignoring an obviously heavily defended second hive? Or perhaps the marines want to ignore the hive, control few RTs (2-3), and hit the alien RTs while they defend their hives?
Way more depth to forcing a second hive (or even second CC!) for higher level tech.
The way i see it, is we are back on...
2rts hive carapace
vs.
PG GL rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your argument is basically going:
2nd hive is needed to advance in tech -> aliens are predictable
This is similar to saying:
Tres is needed to tech -> aliens are predictable
Then:
aliens are predictable -> gameplay is stale
And then you're asserting this as if somehow a 2nd hive being unimportant leads to diversity which is unsupported by your argument. There is ALWAYS going to be a standard way to play. You see that now with leap -> couple RTs -> carapace. If the game is "predictable" (by your definition) right now, then how are you blaming it on 2nd hive being required to tech? 2nd hive being important actually opens up more avenues for both aliens and marines to play. It also gives a focus for early -> midgame transition instead of constant RT harassing.
I'm pretty confident the second hive T2 abilities will work out much better, and provide the commander with real choices. That is, provided you aren't able to get a second hive 2 minutes into the game
right now u can still get 2-3 rts in an instant with leap aswell