Why does leap exist 30 seconds into the game?
GORGEous
Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
Leap is balanced around a previous-second-hive timing. Since being tied to maturation (although now it seems not tied to maturation), it is coming out 0.5 - 3 minutes into the game. That is far too early. Leap should be coming out on the field around the time that fades are coming out (5-9 minutes).
Leap really needs to be delayed because most of the games I fight now skulks have leap by their second spawn.
Leap really needs to be delayed because most of the games I fight now skulks have leap by their second spawn.
Comments
Research leap immediately, expand to harvesters, then get carapace. Shift is no longer a good idea for starting hive when you can get leap immediately.
Sounds good, though I hope they're not going to implement some new mechanic aimed at only addressing 'fast leap'.
They just need to make maturation actually mean something again. AFAIK you start out with a matured hive and can thus immediately unlock whatever you want. Obviously during the first 5 - 10 minutes into the game leap is always going to be the 'no brainer' research choice. Where as when it is delayed, like in the old days, other unlocks may appear more 'needed'. (It could be worth researching fade blink first, or spikes if they were made better, etc etc)
As it stands, maturation has become pretty useless in 210. There's other ways to fix it outside of maturation of course, but it's pretty crucial that the ability to research upgrades for lifeforms is DELAYED until there's at least more lifeforms available to the players. (Else you will always have these kind of 'no brainer' tech choices) And obviously all lifeform upgrades will need to become equally viable as a 'first option'.
Research leap immediately, expand to harvesters, then get carapace. Shift is no longer a good idea for starting hive when you can get leap immediately.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this is only because it's a race to grab as much territory before marines get JPs and then own the game.
Research leap immediately, expand to harvesters, then get carapace. Shift is no longer a good idea for starting hive when you can get leap immediately.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh. Shift hive was only <i>moderately</i> decent and only good if you knew for a fact you were going to get a second hive early. Carapace is still the go to first upgrade. But I'm sure you already knew all of this.
That pretty much doesn't happen in any even game. There is no way that evenly skilled marines win battles without meds/ammo. There is also no way that you can afford 4-5m JPs when supporting your team with various things. Jetpacks typically come out after fades and before/as onos come out. If jetpacks are "rushed" in 4-5 minutes, that's because the alien team sucked and the marine team was better. Leap has no tradeoff. Aliens get leap 30-60s into the game for a measly 25 tres. Nothing marines can do can stop this. Nothing marines can do can mitigate this. Leap skulks are out before any marine upgrades are finished.
It's also important to note that it takes 212 seconds (180 of it is research time, immune to nanobuild) to research jetpacks.
JPs cost:
95 tres
212 seconds of time
10 pres each
Leap costs:
25 tres
60 seconds (modifiable by mist)
0 pres each
(please note that the problem with jetpack is that they have no counter once they're out. And perhaps they are a little too cheap, in my opinion. Others think that they're too mobile, but I disagree. The problem is that fades and skulks have no effective way to hit anything in the air. Removal of the arbitrary delays for moveability->attack is a good first step. A very slight nerf to jetpack mechanics MAY be necessary to balance jetpacks.)
Yes it depended on the map. Some maps shift was an excellent choice as the map was on the larger side, but a second hive location was in a defensible position away from the marines.
However now in these situations, this is no longer the case. Leap then carapace is always a better choice.
4 minutes might have been a tiny stretch, maybe 5-6 minutes. I know for a fact that I have jet packers up before aliens even have fades though.
5 out of the 5 games I've Com'ed over the past 2 days (and I never played Marines until this patch because its so easy, even a caveman can do it), I've rush tech jetpacks because they give such a huge boost to survivability (###### op), it far exceeds the benefits that teching armor/weapons first gives and we soon rolled over them because there is nothing they can presently do against jet packers.
Granted, I agree that 60 second leap is insane, but can't hardly say this build is oozing with balance.
30 second leap is abysmal.
Please don't touch the jetpacks as its the ONLY way that marines have any mobility at all. And phase gates? They are pretty laughable until you have jetpacks.
EDIT:
I also want to clarify that giving skulks an infinite range bite (Parasite) and leap 30 seconds into the game is painfully <i>bad</i> for balance.
It takes close to no skill to parasite a marine from 200 feet away then insta-leap 2 bite them in a matter of seconds. Good luck landing 10 hits on that skulk in the meantime.....
Yeah the hive gets to 15% maturity in the pregame warmup (you know the one where you lack crosshairs and cant hop in comm chair) It is retarded and I hope to God not intentional.
you assume too much
So I think we'll probably end up by tying Tier 2 (eg, Leap) to 2 hives and Tier 3 (eg, Stomp) to 3 hives.
So I think we'll probably end up by tying Tier 2 (eg, Leap) to 2 hives and Tier 3 (eg, Stomp) to 3 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have so very missed that. Looking forward to trying that out again with the new circumstances.
So I think we'll probably end up by tying Tier 2 (eg, Leap) to 2 hives and Tier 3 (eg, Stomp) to 3 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flayra I think that is the most beautiful thing you've ever posted. I think I love you.
So I think we'll probably end up by tying Tier 2 (eg, Leap) to 2 hives and Tier 3 (eg, Stomp) to 3 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is not that leap is availible from the get go. The problem is that you can get it without skipping something else. The game should revolve around choices.
For example if you get early leap then you cant afford enough resnodes for cara and early blink. You can have diffrent costs for diffrent upgrades maybe leap should be 40 tres isntead because you upgrade the free unit.
Going back to abilitys tied to hives seems like a step backwards.
Agreed.
For example if you get early leap then you cant afford enough resnodes for cara and early blink. You can have diffrent costs for diffrent upgrades maybe leap should be 40 tres isntead because you upgrade the free unit.
Going back to abilitys tied to hives seems like a step backwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wise words.
For example if you get early leap then you cant afford enough resnodes for cara and early blink. You can have diffrent costs for diffrent upgrades maybe leap should be 40 tres isntead because you upgrade the free unit.
Going back to abilitys tied to hives seems like a step backwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree with this I like the current way ALOT better than the old, don't go back to hive2 and hive3 teir weapons just figure out a way to delay the leap upgrade with the choice said above for the commander to start thinking "should I get leap because its the starting class and most team players will get it?,blink because fades are on the way? or spikes because we have 3 lerks?"
Maybe, maybe not. We know tying abilities to hives works, and creates enjoyable gameplay. Not tying it to hives, however, is more or less a gamble. At this point in the development cycle, with all the other experiments going on, it seems prudent to go with the safe route.
Personally, I never enjoyed leap skulk gameplay. It turns the skulk from a primarily ambushing unit to a primarily rushing unit. Leap doesn't even require much skill to use at maximum efficiency, making it a fairly shallow experience for dedicated players. It definitely shouldn't be removed though -- it is needed to make the skulk potent in the late-middle to late game. Tying it to the second hive ensures that leap doesn't interfere with the lovely early game basic skulk vs. machine gun combat, while still being available when it is needed, if the aliens do their job well enough.
Of course, I am a wee bit biased...