<!--quoteo(post=1939205:date=May 27 2012, 03:50 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 27 2012, 03:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Trailing spores were designed to get the Lerk up off the ground and flying around, instead of sitting back out of the room or in a vent somewhere sporing and spiking. We tried the projectile spores, and that is exactly what was happening - unseen lerks, hanging back out of battle, not flying around. As soon as we changed the spores from projectile to trailing, Lerks engaged in combat and were flying around much more and being smarter and more tactical with their playstyle.
We are happy with how the trailing spores are working, and those are not changing.
We believe the concept of the poison bite does synergize well with the Lerks other abilities, as he can get a quick bite in while flying by a marine while sporing, and keep on flying. If it was just a regular bite it would be too similar to the skulk, and would mean the Lerk has to remain in close for some time biting to melee the marine to death, rather then the hit and run (fly) tactic of the poison bite.
As mentioned already, the bite is not the only additional ability the Lerk is getting, and there are some other changes to his existing abilities, and possibly to his health / armor. It will all be clearer soon.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The logic that you applied to spores when spikes existed does not necessarily exist, certainly not as strongly, if you re-implement bite. Spikes (and the removal of shotgun spikes) is the main culprit for needing a secondary ability that requires Lerks to fly around and get up close. By the sounds of it, bite will now be a primary ability that achieves those aims. With two abilities that require close-up play, expect the lerk in nublet hands to die incredibly quickly once performance increases. Spore-trails in public play don't seem to be that broken but I don't think it's wise to underplay the poor performance as an issue for why lerks are surviving so much and designing the lerk around hit-and-run tactics without keeping this in mind is going to be a massively difficult task once respectable performance is achieved.
Competitively, trail-spores are <i>already</i> almost useless and only buffing them to the point of massive marine grievance would keep them viable (and then public is back to being a sporefest). The lerk you're proposing, with no ranged effectiveness, looks like it will be totally nullified by a shotgun tech explosion. Only the fast-moving lerk of NS1 with high dps would have any reason to risk his life. I also wonder how frustrating the one-hit kill vampiric bite sabahell alludes to might turn out to be, whether or whether not you have a decent commander. I hope this DoT is done very carefully.
Basically, with bite added, projectile spores should be on the table again. I know it must be exhausting to reconceptualise everything at every turn but the lerk will probably deserve a little more attention. The current trail-spores satisfied an aim that will likely be achieved with the introduction vampiric bite and some of the problems associated with projectile spores will be mitigated by it too (with spikes, there was never a compelling enough reason to get close). The projectile spores that have been tested were a la NS1 but alternative forms of projectile spores have yet to be tried. Internetexplorer's momentum spores, Fana's spore-spike with direct impact fall-off damage and my idea of a distance-tied spore radius are all viable solutions that either get the lerk "up-and-flying" or provide incentives for it to get close.
How about a medium range spore then? Like a bile bomb but instead of structure damage it will release a "spore bomb". That means they can't be completely out of battle when sporing and it would fit quite well with bite.
<!--quoteo(post=1939290:date=May 27 2012, 11:42 PM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ May 27 2012, 11:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Will be interesting to test this out=) I've always missed the feeling of being able to bite as a Lerk, it felt so rewarding in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From memory I'm pretty sure you could also fly around faster/more agile in general in ns1.
Skeptical about how well a bite is going to work with the slow movement and weapon switch speed (especially from spore) we have now. Also making it an unavoidable dot (unlike spore) to compensate and differentiate will probably cause more player grief than fun. Are we not going to be seeing shotgun spike? :(
<!--quoteo(post=1939093:date=May 26 2012, 08:21 PM:name=tux77)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tux77 @ May 26 2012, 08:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just would say thank you very very much UWE for bite lerk again because spike was just useless and thank for hearing about community lerk player request. Vampire bite seem very cool in the idea moreover ;) , now just give bilebomb to gorge and put back umbra on lerk again ;) .
THANK YOU !!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adding poison that can only be stopped with a medpack or armory visit takes some measure of control away from the marine, which I do not like. Some comms are stingy or just inattentive, so you might not get a medpack, and a trip back to the armory is often not a viable option.
If you are spored as a marine, you can choose to back out of it, or continue on ahead - you have a "tactical decision" to make where you choice will produce instant results. Not so with poison. Now you have a long term debuff that will inevitably kill you. Or take you on a round trip to the armory.
I guess with a good comm, this probably won't be much of a problem. With a mediocre to bad comm I see it potentially crippling the marines, with not many options for the players on the ground to pick up the slack.
Also I'd rather not see more DOT mechanics thrown into the mix. Spore is enough.
<!--quoteo(post=1939301:date=May 27 2012, 03:57 PM:name=Pistachio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pistachio @ May 27 2012, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adding poison that can only be stopped with a medpack or armory visit takes some measure of control away from the marine, which I do not like. Some comms are stingy or just inattentive, so you might not get a medpack, and a trip back to the armory is often not a viable option.
If you are spored as a marine, you can choose to back out of it, or continue on ahead - you have a "tactical decision" to make where you choice will produce instant results. Not so with poison. Now you have a long term debuff that will inevitably kill you. Or take you on a round trip to the armory.
I guess with a good comm, this probably won't be much of a problem. With a mediocre to bad comm I see it potentially crippling the marines, with not many options for the players on the ground to pick up the slack.
Also I'd rather not see more DOT mechanics thrown into the mix. Spore is enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This echoes my concerns, too.
Yeah, poison and DOT mechanics in general are silly. Remember, <i>a designer achieves perfection when there is nothing left to take away</i>. If the game can't function with bite/spikeshotgun as a simple "push button, get damage" weapon, fix that <b>before </b>adding more baggage in the form of poison, vampirism etc.
please don't add a DoT to the bite. if anything, have bitten marines be more susceptible to spore gas. I still think charge-up shotgun spike should be favored over bite. Forcing the lerk to engage close quarters takes away from its options in a bad way.
<!--quoteo(post=1939317:date=May 27 2012, 04:40 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ May 27 2012, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->please don't add a DoT to the bite. if anything, have bitten marines be more susceptible to spore gas. I still think charge-up shotgun spike should be favored over bite. Forcing the lerk to engage close quarters takes away from its options in a bad way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I'd like to try some other types of high DPS spikes before bite, spikes has some interesting aspects combined with the lerk flight. It also avoid the messy collision-box fights.
<!--quoteo(post=1939316:date=May 27 2012, 04:31 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 27 2012, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remember, <i>a designer achieves perfection when there is nothing left to take away</i>. If the game can't function with bite/spikeshotgun as a simple "push button, get damage" weapon, fix that <b>before </b>adding more baggage in the form of poison, vampirism etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't mind spikes making a return as a 3rd ability with slighty improved effectiveness, albeit without the sniper-spike syndrome. As the game progresses, it becomes increasingly more dangerous to approach marines and this could provide some alternative DPS mechanic - obviously, bite would still need to retain its status as having the highest damage output. It could even operate on the 4th ability slot if umbra is still preferred. Without thinking it through too much, there might be potential for a strong late-game ranged ability as an effective game-ender.
<!--quoteo(post=1939275:date=May 27 2012, 11:34 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 27 2012, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939275"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it lasts until death or healing, I foresee lots of super pissed players who die in a way they can't realistically defend themselves against (a single bite) simply because the commander was a little distracted elsewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It does not last until death. It will never kill a marine outright, and will always stop when it reaches a low hitpoint number. <!--quoteo(post=1939281:date=May 27 2012, 11:47 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ May 27 2012, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lerk you're proposing, with no ranged effectiveness, looks like it will be totally nullified by a shotgun tech explosion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why are you assuming the Lerk will have no ranged effectiveness? We are not removing spikes, and there will be another ranged ability added.
Next week you will be able to see the exact changes that were made and actually play around with the new Lerk, so perhaps it would be better to reserve judgement until then.
Ok, that's good to hear. Forgive my jumping to conclusions but it's hard to not feel compelled to comment on things before their time what with all the paths that have been taken that may have perhaps been avoided in the first place, though!
<!--quoteo(post=1939205:date=May 27 2012, 04:50 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 27 2012, 04:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We believe the concept of the poison bite does synergize well with the Lerks other abilities, as he can get a quick bite in while flying by a marine while sporing, and keep on flying. If it was just a regular bite it would be too similar to the skulk, and would mean the Lerk has to remain in close for some time biting to melee the marine to death, rather then the hit and run (fly) tactic of the poison bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm all for variety among the different lifeforms and there are certainly alternatives to bite for the lerk. What I don't understand is why bite would make the lerk too similar to the skulk. Think of how it works on the marine side. Are the pistol, rifle and minigun the same, because they are all ranged projectile weapons? No, there are several factors that differentiate them, like damage per hit, rate of fire, magazine size, effectiveness against structures and so on. These four alone are all applicable on melee weapons (magazine size becomes energy cost). I also don't think that having bite would eliminate hit and run tactics. I remember some awesome hit and run lerks from NS1, using combinations of spore and bite. It's all a matter of tweaking the factors.
<!--quoteo(post=1939330:date=May 27 2012, 04:45 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ May 27 2012, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, that's good to hear. Forgive my jumping to conclusions but it's hard to not feel compelled to comment on things before their time what with all the paths that have been taken that may have perhaps been avoided in the first place, though!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is the nature of game design. It's all well and good to say something is going to work or not going to work, but until its tried out, you really can't be sure. There have indeed been a lot of paths we've gone down that ended up not working out as well as we'd hoped. But there are also many directions we've gone in that have worked out well, despite the initial resistance to them ahead of time. So, yeah, hindsight is all well and good, to look back on the ideas which could have avoided implementation, but until something is proven to work or not through actual implementation, it is just a lot of theory crafting, and you can never be sure.
Theory crafting is a necessary process that you go through to filter out redundant paths and I would have thought that Charlie is often engaging in "just a lot of theory crafting" before he decides to throw something in! The implementation stage is surely a verification process for edge cases rather than a melting pot of random ideas that sound cool. I don't doubt that there are many directions you have taken that have worked out well but nor do I doubt that there were many directions that you have avoided completely because theory crafting eliminated them. Perfect theory crafting provides perfect results so its not theory crafting that is the issue, it's that we often get theory crafting wrong. There are, however, many paths and their subsequent outcomes that even we mortals can predict ahead of time.
My worry, and maybe it is unfounded, is that some paths get taken and that the sunken costs into that path make it very hard to justify its removal. If I commit weeks to project A that I ultimately find is inferior to project B, it becomes difficult to justify negating the time put in to A and spend further time on B just to get the comparatively small gain in-between. If only time was infinitely large and effort infinitely small!
Either way, I hope that the general points I made are not entirely disregarded because of my misunderstanding.
What ?!! Lerk will got antoher ranged ability and spike conserved and bite will come ;) !!
LOL IT WILL BE AWESOME THANK!!!
Lerk could be crazy like this i think :
1Hive => Vampire Bite on weapon1 and Actual Bombed Spore on weapon2. 2Hive => Umbra spore ranged or not on weapon3, if not ranged will be greater i think, need more skill but greater on long term. 3Hive => Shootgun Spike (like a bullet of 11 spikes maybe) on weapon4.
And just make him more quickly but stay his HP and armor the same like this he can easily be killed if he do something wrong but can be a good oppenent on lazy marines or non coordonated marines.
And SG lvl3 and HMG will finish the problem of the "overpowering" of this lerk like in ns1 ;) , HA too ..
THANK YOU GOD. FINALLY. LERK BITE BACK. FUN HAS RETURNED.
and honestly whoever complains about the DoT, don't worry because such a garbage mechanic won't last long. UWE will remove it because honestly, DoT is the dumbest thing ever. Never been good mechanic in any game. Fun? No. Satisfying for attacker? Not really. Why make thinks complicated. Faster biting, less damage, ala NS1 style. It worked so why remove it?
If you MUST keep DoT, it can be skewed in that marine sprinting may lead to the DoT itself. Where excessive movement can cause marine health to drop. But not sprinting leaves your health static.
AND THANK YOU GOD LERK BITE BACK. NOW FIX ARCS AND GORGE HYDRA AND ONOS STOMP AND WTH DOES THE SHADE EVEN DO?
I don't understand all the jumped conclusions and hate for and about DoT effects. Have you never used the flame thrower ingame? Never played as the pyro in TF2? Never played dota or an rp game?
DoT effects very rarely lasts "until death" and requires you to heal to prevent death if starting from high health. There are plenty of ways to differentiate DoT effects, such as duration, means of application, stacking, variable damage and secondary effects. The <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118518" target="_blank">Projectile spores</a> thread derailed slightly into how your read lerk would look here, and I think it fits well with the discussion of the DoT effect.
<ul><li><b>Tier 0, Passive ability:</b> <i>Thick Skull</i> (Collide with marines to deal speed-based damage and obscure marine sight briefly. Rifle butt vision effect, light damage)</li><li><b>Tier 0, primary fire:</b> <i>Vampiric Bite</i> (Cause initial normal damage and make the target bleed for some biological damage over a few seconds. Stacking bleed)</li><li><b>Tier 1, primary fire:</b> <i>Projectile Spores</i> (Also damage structures in a corrode-like manner. Clouds stacking but heavy cost. Transparent like umbra)</li><li><b>Tier 2, secondary fire:</b> <i>Umbra Trail</i> (envelop lerk and leaves a trail, distract sentry)</li><li><b>Tier 3, primary fire:</b><i> Poison Dart</i> (deals low initial damage and biological damage over some seconds. Biological damage)</li></ul><i>
Vampiric bite idea taken from Live Q&A #3 and Poison Dart from my understanding of the implementation in the Balance.Lua file.</i>
I think this gives every ability a distinctive and separate role. With no hives, you can fly into marines and bite them a few times to kill them, or do a collide+bite to wear them down. Your primary way to take down structures would be the initial damage from your bite. With one hive you can use your spores to assist more safely in taking down structures more and also temporary block block areas. Should not be able to do more then 2-3 clouds back-to-back before you need to wait for energy. With tier 2 you will be able to more safely get into the fray and assist directly in the attack by your umbra trail. Allows you to better last as upgrades start to me more effective from the marine side. With final tier you will be able to stand a chance dealing with exo suits, forcing medpacks to prevent them from dying if left alone. Also allows you to "instantly" kill a marine by Poison Dart+Vampiric Bite+Collide of they have no armor and doesn't get a medpack quickly after).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I imagine that bite would deal 40+20 stacking damage over 2 seconds, Collide up to 30 damage, and Poison Dart 4+50 damage over 5 seconds. With that you'd have 2 seconds to get a medpack from the commander from the Poison Dart application to not die. Poison Dart should probably not drop you below 1 health, as that could be annoying. The Poison Dart damage is taken from the Lua files. Well, how it seems to work as it sais damage 10 duration 5 and initial 4 in them...
I do think the Vampric/Poison bite should be able to kill a marine, but the DoT proportion of the damage should be short in duration and relatively low in damage. (1/3 of total and 2 sec is my idea). This is because if the initial damage is low compared to the DoT effect, then you will always have to swoop twice unless the marine have lower health then your bite does. If it got fairly high damage compared to the DoT, then it promotes just biting multiple times in a row instead of trying to fly away.
<!--quoteo(post=1939472:date=May 28 2012, 06:31 AM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ May 28 2012, 06:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand all the jumped conclusions and hate for and about DoT effects. Have you never used the flame thrower ingame? Never played as the pyro in TF2? Never played dota or an rp game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes I've used the flamethrower
yes I've played pyro in TF2, and it's a trashcan class because it's balanced around a weapon that gives you free damage and is easier to use than any of the others
@ Fluid Core Your dream-lerk makes it the most modular class though. Sounds like an incredibly annoying and over-powered unit where it comes equipped with both 'semi-heavy' melee and ranged attacks early on when marines are weak and only gets stronger with them. By the time marines can pump-out exosuits and weapons/armour 2 the lerk should be at a disadvantage...
<!--quoteo(post=1939633:date=May 28 2012, 09:23 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 28 2012, 09:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yes I've used the flamethrower
yes I've played pyro in TF2, and it's a trashcan class because it's balanced around a weapon that gives you free damage and is easier to use than any of the others
need I say more?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry that your entire philosophy is against contemporary game design. Rest assured, the diversification of games will continue and one day someone will make the kind of game that you want. I hope that it's better than I predict it will be.
Calling the Pyro a trashcan class demonstrates a lack of knowledge about TF2. You would probably post 5-7 paragraphs about how wrong someone was if they called the Lerk a trashcan class.
EDITED TO ADD: Do you think extreme, inflammatory statements help prove your point, or something along those lines? Sometimes you're reasonable, sometimes you're like this. I just don't get it with you.
Lots of people saying bring back ranged spore, and although I'm inclined to agree, I think it would be nice to try a Bite Primary Fire and Spore Alt Fire combo. With dense enough spore cover, maybe even coupled with some kind of umbra??, the lerk could be a lot of fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1939655:date=May 29 2012, 11:10 AM:name=Wyattx3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wyattx3 @ May 29 2012, 11:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lots of people saying bring back ranged spore, and although I'm inclined to agree, I think it would be nice to try a Bite Primary Fire and Spore Alt Fire combo. With dense enough spore cover, maybe even coupled with some kind of umbra??, the lerk could be a lot of fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For sure, I think bringing these things into the game and letting everyone give their feedback on it is the best way to go, of course not everyone will be happy but hey at least it gives everyone a shot at whats going on :)
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
Wouldn't it be cool if Spike is altered to be like the Rocket Launcher in Unreal series?
That is, holding the primary fire button would charge up the number of Spikes fired. When primary fire is released, all the charged spikes are fired at once in a scattered pattern.
<!--quoteo(post=1939666:date=May 29 2012, 12:49 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ May 29 2012, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wouldn't it be cool if Spike is altered to be like the Rocket Launcher in Unreal series?
That is, holding the primary fire button would charge up the number of Spikes fired. When primary fire is released, all the charged spikes are fired at once in a scattered pattern.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would be cool if the spikes stayed in the ground / on marine models for a few seconds (like the arrow out of TF2), but yeah might kill performance.
I honestly prefer full-auto spiking, as it's better for dogfights and strafing groups of people. My problem with the spikes is that between damage falloff and being kind of inaccurate, they're not all that useful at their intended range (roughly similar to the LMG), and when you get into the kind of range where they ARE effective shotguns and LMGs start to rip you up. If lerk bite is an additional weapon (rather than a spike replacement) I'm all for trying new stuff, but I am apparently one of the few people who stopped enjoying the lerk in NS1 when they pulled the spikes and gave it a bite instead.
Comments
We are happy with how the trailing spores are working, and those are not changing.
We believe the concept of the poison bite does synergize well with the Lerks other abilities, as he can get a quick bite in while flying by a marine while sporing, and keep on flying. If it was just a regular bite it would be too similar to the skulk, and would mean the Lerk has to remain in close for some time biting to melee the marine to death, rather then the hit and run (fly) tactic of the poison bite.
As mentioned already, the bite is not the only additional ability the Lerk is getting, and there are some other changes to his existing abilities, and possibly to his health / armor. It will all be clearer soon.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The logic that you applied to spores when spikes existed does not necessarily exist, certainly not as strongly, if you re-implement bite. Spikes (and the removal of shotgun spikes) is the main culprit for needing a secondary ability that requires Lerks to fly around and get up close. By the sounds of it, bite will now be a primary ability that achieves those aims. With two abilities that require close-up play, expect the lerk in nublet hands to die incredibly quickly once performance increases. Spore-trails in public play don't seem to be that broken but I don't think it's wise to underplay the poor performance as an issue for why lerks are surviving so much and designing the lerk around hit-and-run tactics without keeping this in mind is going to be a massively difficult task once respectable performance is achieved.
Competitively, trail-spores are <i>already</i> almost useless and only buffing them to the point of massive marine grievance would keep them viable (and then public is back to being a sporefest). The lerk you're proposing, with no ranged effectiveness, looks like it will be totally nullified by a shotgun tech explosion. Only the fast-moving lerk of NS1 with high dps would have any reason to risk his life. I also wonder how frustrating the one-hit kill vampiric bite sabahell alludes to might turn out to be, whether or whether not you have a decent commander. I hope this DoT is done very carefully.
Basically, with bite added, projectile spores should be on the table again. I know it must be exhausting to reconceptualise everything at every turn but the lerk will probably deserve a little more attention. The current trail-spores satisfied an aim that will likely be achieved with the introduction vampiric bite and some of the problems associated with projectile spores will be mitigated by it too (with spikes, there was never a compelling enough reason to get close). The projectile spores that have been tested were a la NS1 but alternative forms of projectile spores have yet to be tried. Internetexplorer's momentum spores, Fana's spore-spike with direct impact fall-off damage and my idea of a distance-tied spore radius are all viable solutions that either get the lerk "up-and-flying" or provide incentives for it to get close.
From memory I'm pretty sure you could also fly around faster/more agile in general in ns1.
Skeptical about how well a bite is going to work with the slow movement and weapon switch speed (especially from spore) we have now. Also making it an unavoidable dot (unlike spore) to compensate and differentiate will probably cause more player grief than fun. Are we not going to be seeing shotgun spike? :(
Vampire bite seem very cool in the idea moreover ;) , now just give bilebomb to gorge and put back umbra on lerk again ;) .
THANK YOU !!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nostalgia at its best.
If you are spored as a marine, you can choose to back out of it, or continue on ahead - you have a "tactical decision" to make where you choice will produce instant results. Not so with poison. Now you have a long term debuff that will inevitably kill you. Or take you on a round trip to the armory.
I guess with a good comm, this probably won't be much of a problem. With a mediocre to bad comm I see it potentially crippling the marines, with not many options for the players on the ground to pick up the slack.
Also I'd rather not see more DOT mechanics thrown into the mix. Spore is enough.
If you are spored as a marine, you can choose to back out of it, or continue on ahead - you have a "tactical decision" to make where you choice will produce instant results. Not so with poison. Now you have a long term debuff that will inevitably kill you. Or take you on a round trip to the armory.
I guess with a good comm, this probably won't be much of a problem. With a mediocre to bad comm I see it potentially crippling the marines, with not many options for the players on the ground to pick up the slack.
Also I'd rather not see more DOT mechanics thrown into the mix. Spore is enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This echoes my concerns, too.
Remember, <i>a designer achieves perfection when there is nothing left to take away</i>. If the game can't function with bite/spikeshotgun as a simple "push button, get damage" weapon, fix that <b>before </b>adding more baggage in the form of poison, vampirism etc.
Yes, I'd like to try some other types of high DPS spikes before bite, spikes has some interesting aspects combined with the lerk flight. It also avoid the messy collision-box fights.
<!--quoteo(post=1939316:date=May 27 2012, 04:31 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 27 2012, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remember, <i>a designer achieves perfection when there is nothing left to take away</i>. If the game can't function with bite/spikeshotgun as a simple "push button, get damage" weapon, fix that <b>before </b>adding more baggage in the form of poison, vampirism etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True.
It does not last until death. It will never kill a marine outright, and will always stop when it reaches a low hitpoint number.
<!--quoteo(post=1939281:date=May 27 2012, 11:47 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ May 27 2012, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lerk you're proposing, with no ranged effectiveness, looks like it will be totally nullified by a shotgun tech explosion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why are you assuming the Lerk will have no ranged effectiveness? We are not removing spikes, and there will be another ranged ability added.
Next week you will be able to see the exact changes that were made and actually play around with the new Lerk, so perhaps it would be better to reserve judgement until then.
--Cory
I'm all for variety among the different lifeforms and there are certainly alternatives to bite for the lerk. What I don't understand is why bite would make the lerk too similar to the skulk. Think of how it works on the marine side. Are the pistol, rifle and minigun the same, because they are all ranged projectile weapons?
No, there are several factors that differentiate them, like damage per hit, rate of fire, magazine size, effectiveness against structures and so on. These four alone are all applicable on melee weapons (magazine size becomes energy cost). I also don't think that having bite would eliminate hit and run tactics. I remember some awesome hit and run lerks from NS1, using combinations of spore and bite. It's all a matter of tweaking the factors.
That is the nature of game design. It's all well and good to say something is going to work or not going to work, but until its tried out, you really can't be sure. There have indeed been a lot of paths we've gone down that ended up not working out as well as we'd hoped. But there are also many directions we've gone in that have worked out well, despite the initial resistance to them ahead of time. So, yeah, hindsight is all well and good, to look back on the ideas which could have avoided implementation, but until something is proven to work or not through actual implementation, it is just a lot of theory crafting, and you can never be sure.
--Cory
My worry, and maybe it is unfounded, is that some paths get taken and that the sunken costs into that path make it very hard to justify its removal. If I commit weeks to project A that I ultimately find is inferior to project B, it becomes difficult to justify negating the time put in to A and spend further time on B just to get the comparatively small gain in-between. If only time was infinitely large and effort infinitely small!
Either way, I hope that the general points I made are not entirely disregarded because of my misunderstanding.
LOL IT WILL BE AWESOME THANK!!!
Lerk could be crazy like this i think :
1Hive => Vampire Bite on weapon1 and Actual Bombed Spore on weapon2.
2Hive => Umbra spore ranged or not on weapon3, if not ranged will be greater i think, need more skill but greater on long term.
3Hive => Shootgun Spike (like a bullet of 11 spikes maybe) on weapon4.
And just make him more quickly but stay his HP and armor the same like this he can easily be killed if he do something wrong but can be a good oppenent on lazy marines or non coordonated marines.
And SG lvl3 and HMG will finish the problem of the "overpowering" of this lerk like in ns1 ;) , HA too ..
May this a good idea or a fool idea ?
Tux
and honestly whoever complains about the DoT, don't worry because such a garbage mechanic won't last long. UWE will remove it because honestly, DoT is the dumbest thing ever. Never been good mechanic in any game. Fun? No. Satisfying for attacker? Not really. Why make thinks complicated. Faster biting, less damage, ala NS1 style. It worked so why remove it?
If you MUST keep DoT, it can be skewed in that marine sprinting may lead to the DoT itself. Where excessive movement can cause marine health to drop. But not sprinting leaves your health static.
AND THANK YOU GOD LERK BITE BACK. NOW FIX ARCS AND GORGE HYDRA AND ONOS STOMP AND WTH DOES THE SHADE EVEN DO?
DoT effects very rarely lasts "until death" and requires you to heal to prevent death if starting from high health. There are plenty of ways to differentiate DoT effects, such as duration, means of application, stacking, variable damage and secondary effects. The <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118518" target="_blank">Projectile spores</a> thread derailed slightly into how your read lerk would look here, and I think it fits well with the discussion of the DoT effect.
<!--quoteo(post=1938410:date=May 23 2012, 02:45 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ May 23 2012, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i><b>Dream lerk:</b></i>
<ul><li><b>Tier 0, Passive ability:</b> <i>Thick Skull</i> (Collide with marines to deal speed-based damage and obscure marine sight briefly. Rifle butt vision effect, light damage)</li><li><b>Tier 0, primary fire:</b> <i>Vampiric Bite</i> (Cause initial normal damage and make the target bleed for some biological damage over a few seconds. Stacking bleed)</li><li><b>Tier 1, primary fire:</b> <i>Projectile Spores</i> (Also damage structures in a corrode-like manner. Clouds stacking but heavy cost. Transparent like umbra)</li><li><b>Tier 2, secondary fire:</b> <i>Umbra Trail</i> (envelop lerk and leaves a trail, distract sentry)</li><li><b>Tier 3, primary fire:</b><i> Poison Dart</i> (deals low initial damage and biological damage over some seconds. Biological damage)</li></ul><i>
Vampiric bite idea taken from Live Q&A #3 and Poison Dart from my understanding of the implementation in the Balance.Lua file.</i>
I think this gives every ability a distinctive and separate role. With no hives, you can fly into marines and bite them a few times to kill them, or do a collide+bite to wear them down. Your primary way to take down structures would be the initial damage from your bite. With one hive you can use your spores to assist more safely in taking down structures more and also temporary block block areas. Should not be able to do more then 2-3 clouds back-to-back before you need to wait for energy. With tier 2 you will be able to more safely get into the fray and assist directly in the attack by your umbra trail. Allows you to better last as upgrades start to me more effective from the marine side. With final tier you will be able to stand a chance dealing with exo suits, forcing medpacks to prevent them from dying if left alone. Also allows you to "instantly" kill a marine by Poison Dart+Vampiric Bite+Collide of they have no armor and doesn't get a medpack quickly after).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I imagine that bite would deal 40+20 stacking damage over 2 seconds, Collide up to 30 damage, and Poison Dart 4+50 damage over 5 seconds. With that you'd have 2 seconds to get a medpack from the commander from the Poison Dart application to not die. Poison Dart should probably not drop you below 1 health, as that could be annoying. The Poison Dart damage is taken from the Lua files. Well, how it seems to work as it sais damage 10 duration 5 and initial 4 in them...
I do think the Vampric/Poison bite should be able to kill a marine, but the DoT proportion of the damage should be short in duration and relatively low in damage. (1/3 of total and 2 sec is my idea). This is because if the initial damage is low compared to the DoT effect, then you will always have to swoop twice unless the marine have lower health then your bite does. If it got fairly high damage compared to the DoT, then it promotes just biting multiple times in a row instead of trying to fly away.
awww yeaah baby can't wait for next patch!
yes I've used the flamethrower
yes I've played pyro in TF2, and it's a trashcan class because it's balanced around a weapon that gives you free damage and is easier to use than any of the others
need I say more?
Your dream-lerk makes it the most modular class though. Sounds like an incredibly annoying and over-powered unit where it comes equipped with both 'semi-heavy' melee and ranged attacks early on when marines are weak and only gets stronger with them. By the time marines can pump-out exosuits and weapons/armour 2 the lerk should be at a disadvantage...
yes I've played pyro in TF2, and it's a trashcan class because it's balanced around a weapon that gives you free damage and is easier to use than any of the others
need I say more?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry that your entire philosophy is against contemporary game design. Rest assured, the diversification of games will continue and one day someone will make the kind of game that you want. I hope that it's better than I predict it will be.
Calling the Pyro a trashcan class demonstrates a lack of knowledge about TF2. You would probably post 5-7 paragraphs about how wrong someone was if they called the Lerk a trashcan class.
EDITED TO ADD: Do you think extreme, inflammatory statements help prove your point, or something along those lines? Sometimes you're reasonable, sometimes you're like this. I just don't get it with you.
Also, my ideal game already exists.<a href="http://www.quakelive.com" target="_blank"> Join us!</a>
For sure, I think bringing these things into the game and letting everyone give their feedback on it is the best way to go, of course not everyone will be happy but hey at least it gives everyone a shot at whats going on :)
Why? It needs something to obscure the marine's vision enough so it can swoop in and bite without getting shotgun blasted out of the sky.
It's how I used range spore in NS1. Gas > bite > gas as I retreat and they die.
That is, holding the primary fire button would charge up the number of Spikes fired. When primary fire is released, all the charged spikes are fired at once in a scattered pattern.
That is, holding the primary fire button would charge up the number of Spikes fired. When primary fire is released, all the charged spikes are fired at once in a scattered pattern.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would be cool if the spikes stayed in the ground / on marine models for a few seconds
(like the arrow out of TF2), but yeah might kill performance.