<!--quoteo(post=1939878:date=May 29 2012, 07:13 PM:name=World Construct)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (World Construct @ May 29 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They <u>are</u> mutually exclusive. That's what the fact that competition happens in its own games means. Public games don't become competitive games are vice versa. They each exist in their own world.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> quoting this forever
<!--quoteo(post=1939871:date=May 29 2012, 06:59 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 29 2012, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, back to my very specific NS2 design questions: <ul><li>What makes the poison effect necessary?</li><li>Is the poison effect sufficient as a solution to whatever problem it was created for?</li><li>Will the lerk need to be rebalanced around a DoT mechanic? (trading free damage for viability in other situations, raw skill-indexed power)</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1939871:date=May 29 2012, 03:59 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 29 2012, 03:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, back to my very specific NS2 design questions: <ul><li>What makes the poison effect necessary?</li><li>Is the poison effect sufficient as a solution to whatever problem it was created for?</li><li>Will the lerk need to be rebalanced around a DoT mechanic? (trading free damage for viability in other situations, raw skill-indexed power)</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <ul><li>Bringing bite back as per requested, but with some distinction from skulk bite. (both for intuitive and practical reasons - you <i>are</i> spending 30 pres)</li><li>DoT model works out for the lerk which does not fare well the longer it stays in a room/ area. It is meant to harass. So in this regard it's definitely fitting.</li><li>No, as per ^</li></ul>
Personally, i'd prefer spikes with umbra over bite with spores. They are not complementary and do not protect the lerk when it enters or leaves a room -<b> the time frame where the lerk usually dies.</b> If you found the lerk in precarious scenarios before, try him when melee is required of him. Adjusting the hp/armor will help, but doesn't address the "ability to use his weapons" issue the lerk has always had without making him OP, <b>imo.</b> We'll see, though.
<!--quoteo(post=1939879:date=May 29 2012, 07:15 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 29 2012, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->GOGOGO!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe the developers have taken these things into consideration. Cory and Strayan have made several posts that indicate this. Why can't you wait until the next patch to decide whether or not a mistake has been made? Why do you preemptively jump on so many changes to the game?
<!--quoteo(post=1939883:date=May 29 2012, 07:20 PM:name=World Construct)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (World Construct @ May 29 2012, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe the developers have taken these things into consideration. Cory and Strayan have made several posts that indicate this. Why can't you wait until the next patch to decide whether or not a mistake has been made? Why do you preemptively jump on so many changes to the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>SNIP - If you cannot engage with you your fellow human beings in a friendly and constructive way, your posting rights will be removed. End Snip.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I trust the developers about as much as the lerk is a viable class.
<!--quoteo(post=1939882:date=May 29 2012, 07:20 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 29 2012, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>Bringing bite back as per requested, but with some distinction from skulk bite. (both for intuitive and practical reasons - you <i>are</i> spending 30 pres)</li><li>DoT model works out for the lerk which does not fare well the longer it stays in a room/ area. It is meant to harass. So in this regard it's definitely fitting.</li><li>No, as per ^</li></ul>
Personally, i'd prefer spikes with umbra over bite with spores. They are not complementary and do not protect the lerk when it enters or leaves a room -<b> the time frame where the lerk usually dies.</b> If you found the lerk in precarious scenarios before, try him when melee is required of him. Adjusting the hp/armor will help, but doesn't address the "ability to use his weapons" issue the lerk has always had without making him OP, <b>imo.</b> We'll see, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- Wasn't bite originally in the game (in spirit) as the shotgun spike? What was wrong with having a simple 'attack deals damage at the time of attacking' weapon? - Isn't the point of the lerk to survive its attempts to deal damage by using its mobility, then attempt to deal damage again (and repeat)? You can do all this without any poison effects - people do it right now with spikes. The difference is that DoT gives the damage to players for free, whether they're actually good at surviving to perform repeat attacks or not. It actually goes against the design goal of "encouraging harassment and mobility" because it de-emphasizes decision making and repetition. - I don't see how that means it won't be adjusted for the effect of the poison on the game, but we'll have to wait and see!
Melee is basically already required of the lerk - spores drop at point blank, bile bomb takes on very little momentum, spikes have rampup at close range and accuracy spread. In the old days (like 5 months ago), lots of people were capable of being very effective with shotgun spikes (which also required melee-ranged fighting). The shotgun spike did not have some of its damage tied up in DoT effects, and we'll see eventually how that difference comes into the game in the large scale (or we won't, and it will be another forgettable ability on the list).
You can look at the lerk's bile bomb for a good example of what I mean. It does low damage, so you have to fly in repeatedly to drop bombs (and risk dying each time). However, it also does damage while you're flying away. As such, the damage done "up front" (in the time where you're vulnerable) is lower - if it wasn't this way, another aspect of the class would have to suffer in order to balance the power of the bile bomb. The end result? A weapon that still requires you to attack repeatedly (for low damage each time), risking your life over and over for a series of small gains that can easily be repaired, or mitigated entirely by killing you during a fly-by. The simpler, more straight forward design of "bile bomb deals damage only when it is used, so it can be more powerful up front" does not have this problem - it is much easier to balance it because everything about it happens in the time when the lerk is vulnerable. Lerks can be effective without relying on free damage, and marines can be more effective by doing the same things they were already doing (killing a lerk denies a larger amount of potential damage).
A few things that are on my mind about the poison effect on the lerk's bite.
1) How much damage does the initial bite do vs the poison effect. 50-50? 25-75? 75-25? etc. 1.1) How much damage does the initial bite compare to a skulk's bite? 2) How long does the poison last? 3) At what percentage of HP does the poison no longer effect the Marines? 3.1) Does that mean anything below that percentage stops poison from being reapplied through another bite? 3.2) Does it only take one more lerk bites to kill the Marine once it hits that threshold? One? Two more? 4) Does the poison effect stack with repeated bites? 4.1) Why can't the poison finish the Marine off if that's the case? 4.2) If not (stackable), why not? 5) Why can't the poison finish the Marine off if they're low enough/haven't hit that threshold?
Most important one.
6) How will those that are new to the game/haven't read up on the lerk class an it's abilities realize that the lerk bite contains a dot and thus not gimping themselves or making themselves an easy target by repeatedly biting a marine?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, i'd prefer spikes with umbra over bite with spores.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer bite with (ranged) spores. Spikes still had to be used up close (practically melee range) to be effective enough because of how stupidly inaccurate they are.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The difference is that DoT gives the damage to players for free, whether they're actually good at surviving to perform repeat attacks or not. It actually goes against the design goal of "encouraging harassment and mobility" because it de-emphasizes decision making and repetition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not necessarily true. You still had to do that INITIAL bite to do any damage and be able apply the poison.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1939886:date=May 29 2012, 04:23 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 29 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <ul><li>I support shotgun spikes over bite anyday for their group applications. (because lone marines are so common?? /sarcasm)</li><li>But getting hurt slowly, continuously,<i> is harassment</i> - whether you are in the room or not.</li><li>Melee <b>was not</b> required for the lerk, you could fly overhead at some height, and i personally spiked from a good distance with some success. Try to make this comparison only after trying the iteration in the next patch.</li><li>Spikes do not ramp up in damage when up close - it hasn't been like that for quite some time - although there is a fall off distance.</li><li>How would you make the lerk more effective?</li></ul> @nubs, no to projectile spores. see related threads. Also, spikes and spores still dont protect you in any form - which is greatly needed for such a fragile class.
Reading through the last 15 comments I think players are talking about poison bite on the lerk, please correct me if I'm wrong. Now lets remember that the role of the lerk is ,,damage over time support" instead of being just support. This limits the lerk to only have dot type damages.
The thing I like about giving lerk bite back is to remove the long range attacks from the aliens, however using bite as a dot attacking might not be the best solution. Burst damage always wins over dot and if you are going into melee range you need burst damage if you are going to survive, otherwise it would be better to use something else.
I could also see the dot thing work in combo with the old shotgun spikes, where each spike hit would do X dot damage. This would force the lerk to get to close range to hit the spikes without forcing him into melee range without burst damage. This also fits more the supportive role since it will make it easier for skulk to land kills.
Well, I don't mind if lerk poison bite gets into the game it somewhat feels strange if it does not have a clear role to it considering the risk. It could just as well be bite. ************************************* This is written without testing the current lerk bite, don't know how much damage it does...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@nubs, no to projectile spores. see related threads. Also, spikes and spores still dont protect you in any form - which is greatly needed for such a fragile class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only thing I got out of "related threads" were a bunch of Marine main players crying because turtling was made harder due to projectile spores. Who wouldn't want the enemy to come to them inside their territory full of sentries and buddies with guns?
What was the saying? Don't bring a knife to a gunfight?
<!--quoteo(post=1939907:date=May 29 2012, 08:18 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 29 2012, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should read my posts then. Not being able to combat your enemy who is killing your team is not only frustrating, its poor design and OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1939908:date=May 29 2012, 08:22 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ May 29 2012, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do you feel about ARCs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is a post about lerk, its not the right place to discuss arcs. Its better that everyone stays on topic.
<!--quoteo(post=1939909:date=May 29 2012, 08:24 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ May 29 2012, 08:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939909"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is a post about lerk, its not the right place to discuss arcs. Its better that everyone stays on topic.
Personal arguments can be solved through pm's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, it's pretty on topic. Because countering ARCs is the same way you'd counter a Lerk shooting projectile spores.
You going to have to leave the comfort of your base to go kill the damn ######.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1939869:date=May 29 2012, 11:52 PM:name=World Construct)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (World Construct @ May 29 2012, 11:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What a wonderful argument for the sake of arguing! Many people refer to Counter-Strike as CS 1.6. I apologize for my gross semantic error.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You make a post claiming I made an error by saying CS was 13 years old -- and then you complain about "(arguing) for the sake of arguing" when I correct your blatant misinformation? You really are a piece of work.
<!--quoteo(post=1939917:date=May 29 2012, 09:21 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ May 29 2012, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You make a post claiming I made an error by saying CS was 13 years old -- and then you complain about "(arguing) for the sake of arguing" when I correct your blatant misinformation? You really are a piece of work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--fonto:Comic Sans MS--><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS"><!--/fonto-->bro it's a beta<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1939910:date=May 30 2012, 02:26 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ May 30 2012, 02:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, it's pretty on topic. Because countering ARCs is the same way you'd counter a Lerk shooting projectile spores.
You going to have to leave the comfort of your base to go kill the damn ######.
Wooh fellas, not all at once!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ARCs are defenseless against players and in plain sight. They can't hide in vents and shoot you back if you try to kill them. You can't compare a passive AI unit with a player-controlled flying class with long ranged weapons. Please stick on the topic.
<!--quoteo(post=1939972:date=May 30 2012, 07:41 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ May 30 2012, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ARCs are defenseless against players and in plain sight. They can't hide in vents and shoot you back if you try to kill them. You can't compare a passive AI unit with a player-controlled flying class with long ranged weapons. Please stick on the topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But a good marine with a jp and GL in areas like warehouse hive is pretty damn hard to engage often game turning. Difficulty in engaging an enemy happens from both sides.
If the lerk is going to need to get up close and risk a SG in teh face then the one bite he is hoping to get should do a fair chunk of damage, DoT offers the marine a chance to get healed (negative for aliens)..why not just deliver all the damage up front and help him get return on his gamble.
Looking through the thread I think this argument by Raza is excellent :
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm all for variety among the different lifeforms and there are certainly alternatives to bite for the lerk. What I don't understand is why bite would make the lerk too similar to the skulk. Think of how it works on the marine side. Are the pistol, rifle and minigun the same, because they are all ranged projectile weapons? No, there are several factors that differentiate them, like damage per hit, rate of fire, magazine size, effectiveness against structures and so on. These four alone are all applicable on melee weapons (magazine size becomes energy cost).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't forget the simplicity principle that Charlie said to be one of the most important thing in designing the game :
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remember, a designer achieves perfection when there is nothing left to take away. If the game can't function with bite/spikeshotgun as a simple "push button, get damage" weapon, fix that before adding more baggage in the form of poison, vampirism etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
About ranged spores, we know it works well because we have years of experience with them in ns1. If you don't believe me just go play some ns1 games and see for yourself, you might even have fun doing so! It doesn't imply that trail spore cannot work of course. A difference that may be significant is that marines had hand grenades in ns1, helping clearing the vents. But I'm all for having hand grenades back.
<!--quoteo(post=1939977:date=May 30 2012, 11:19 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ May 30 2012, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939977"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->About ranged spores, we know it works well because we have years of experience with them in ns1. If you don't believe me just go play some ns1 games and see for yourself, you might even have fun doing so! It doesn't imply that trail spore cannot work of course. A difference that may be significant is that marines had hand grenades in ns1, helping clearing the vents. But I'm all for having hand grenades back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Another difference is the clear graphic of NS1. It was nearly impossible for an alien to hide in most parts of the maps. NS2 has much more detail, making it easier for the aliens to hide. Spores obscuring the view even more than umbra in NS1 did, making it even more difficult to spot the hidden lerk causing it.
Many things have changed from NS1 to NS2 and this is good. But it also means, that you can't simply take things from NS1 and say, they will work 1to1 in NS2. So instead of only copying existing stuff, it would be nice to focus on new things and taking a step to the front, not back.
I'm not trying to argue for the return ranged spores, I don't really care.
The visibility problem can easily be solved by having a little spore cloud around the lerk when he shoots, or a trace like for the spikes. Or what about some colored spots on the wings like a beautiful butterfly ?
People always argue against projectile spores because of the static spore-and-hide trend that is <i>possible</i> in NS1 (good lerks don't do this and bad lerks die all the time) and that it didn't work well with spikes because it was also ranged. We're now reintroducing bite so the topic should be reopened. Annoyingly, however, people's totally blinkered approach to what "projectile" might actually mean scuppers discussion. Internetexplorer, Fana, myself and probably many others have come up with iterations of projectile spores that make it function very differently to the normal version (which isn't so bad, by the way) but because it includes the word "projectile" and because it was debated ages ago while spikes were around, it seems sufficient to just say no and move on.
The current iteration of spores works badly. The most obvious clue is that we don't see competitively... ever. I find it very worrying that people can think it's working well when that is the case and I find it even more worrying that it's going to get more and more useless as performance increases. We either need to buff trailing spores or find a better solution and I think, in this case, a better solution is preferable.
I'm sceptical about vampiric bite and I don't really know, besides a lerk-theme, why it exists. Raza is right when he says that the bite is already distinguished very differently because of how the lerk plays and I also echo IE's philosophy of 'simple first, add later'. I don't necessarily think it's going to be a disaster but it sound like it might be unnecessary.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1939980:date=May 30 2012, 10:26 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ May 30 2012, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another difference is the clear graphic of NS1. It was nearly impossible for an alien to hide in most parts of the maps. NS2 has much more detail, making it easier for the aliens to hide. Spores obscuring the view even more than umbra in NS1 did, making it even more difficult to spot the hidden lerk causing it.
Many things have changed from NS1 to NS2 and this is good. But it also means, that you can't simply take things from NS1 and say, they will work 1to1 in NS2. So instead of only copying existing stuff, it would be nice to focus on new things and taking a step to the front, not back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The difference between the NS1 and NS2 Lerk, as of b208, is so insignificant, with the exception of bad client/server performance, that there's no reason to believe that the experience we had with the NS1 lerk doesn't translate directly to the NS2 lerk.
If you want to make an argument that the experience from NS1 isn't applicable to NS2, you're going to have to first convince the devs that the NS2 lerk needs to be a lot more different (which is a valid argument).
<!--quoteo(post=1939980:date=May 30 2012, 10:26 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ May 30 2012, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spores obscuring the view<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, there's a pretty simple fix for that...
Please dont make my post a trash whit your teenager argumentation for some posters plzz moreover if you never played ns1 and start whinning because lerk go bite again or because projectile spore is the best weapon for lerk instead of bombed spore.
I played lerk from 9 years now, i played hight level competitive match on ns1 and some of the first match of ns1 versus [DW] "Division Wikings" one the three first ns clan, long time ago before RaB and so ...
So im not a pro players but i know what i speak about and i think fana/yukii are right.
LERK BITE IS NECESSARY, vampiric or not. RANGED SPORE IS BETTER THAN BOMBED, but not a obligation .
If you cant kill a lerk sporing your base from a vent or sporing a room, just learn how to kill him.
IF you whine everytime about something because you dont have the skill to respond, play play play and play and you will found a countermesure.
LERK in ns1 never or only on late game go rush MS and spore the MS , they have to support other lifeforme and fly over the map killing alone marines etc ...
if a lerk come to you base and start sporing just chass him if you have a little TP in your team, if a lerk block a room by sporing its entrance just rush throw spore and chass him, block him in corridor etc... do what we do in ns1 against lerk.
And i forgeted something ns2 new player dont know, when hmg lvl2 or 3 or jp are done lerk is not a problem its a target ( and you dont hear the lerk player whine because jp can fly or because hmg fire so quick if you died as lerk that your fault if you died as marine thaht your fault).... Remember a good lerk will spore marine only on some occasion, else he just fly over and bite them and escape to comeback and re bite them etcc the spored is great when you have 3-4 marine and you know whitout focus you cant go rush them whit bite, so spore can make them losse a little hp and is the most important =>make marines dispersing at everywhere on the room and make him more easy to kill on crazy lerk rush :) ...
Now please stop whining or comparate your ###### in walltext post about game theory or something, IT WORKED FROM 10 YEAR NOW, TESTED AND TESTED AGAIN !! BITE WHIT SPORE RANGED IS THE BEST FOR LERK .
AND NS2 lerk is very similar to ns1 lerk in his fly, if you do the good old mouvement like ns1 lerk movement whit the hitreg not working when at hight speed you cannot be killed in flying .... just practice on practice... but dont whine plz and dont ruin my "thank "post by posting some rubbish post about what you dont know about ns1 gameplay , ns1 lerk and ns2 lerk and game play...
See you when you will have the hmg/jp we will see if you have the same statement that lerk is OP or ranged spore is OP .....
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
I think both ranged/projectile Spores, and "cropdusting" Spores would work on the Lerk. The Lerk's role would change, of course, depending on the method Spores are delivered.
IMO, the current implementation of Spore Trail is in need of improvements. Sure, it is easy to use. But it does not scale well with skill levels of players on both teams. The effectiveness of "cropdusting" decreases significantly against experienced Marines, who can easily shoot the Lerk down, while avoiding the spores. Lerk would be caught in a catch-22, where attacking would mean likely death, while retreating would cause the alien team to lose ground.
If Spore Trail is to stay, I would like to see it creating a much bigger cloud (slowly expanding radius of 3-6m), while costing more energy. That would add more weight to the decision of the timing of each Spore cloud, making Spore Trail a more fun and rewarding ability.
<!--quoteo(post=1940058:date=May 30 2012, 05:06 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ May 30 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it does not scale well with skill levels of players on both teams. The effectiveness of "cropdusting" decreases significantly against experienced Marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1940058:date=May 30 2012, 05:06 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ May 30 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Spore Trail is to stay, I would like to see it creating a much bigger cloud (slowly expanding radius of 3-6m), while costing more energy. That would add more weight to the decision of the timing of each Spore cloud, making Spore Trail a more fun and rewarding ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're highlighting the basic problem with trail-spores. If you buff it too much, it becomes overpowered and annoying against weak marines and in public games. If it's too weak, it becomes absolutely useless at higher levels of play.
<!--quoteo(post=1940074:date=May 30 2012, 12:55 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ May 30 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're highlighting the basic problem with trail-spores. If you <b>buff it too much</b>, it becomes <b>overpowered</b> and annoying against weak marines and in public games. <b>If</b> it's <b>too weak</b>, it becomes absolutely <b>useless</b> at higher levels of play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ..therefore the best solution would be to try re-implementing projectile spores.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
OR, just make a simple change that allows the lerk to use his spores.
You see, you can make either one work, projectile spores, or trailing spores - with a little bit of work. But two things to consider first: 1) according to some PT leads i spoke to recently, projectile spores were not used in competitive games that much anyways, so "comp" usage being a reason for change is not a good one, necessarily considering the problem plagued ns1's projectile spores as well. 2) the devs feel the sporing mechanic fits the role better and gets the lerk into the fight - a viewpoint i obviously agree on.
before we continue though here's some reference shots of why projectile spores worked in ns1: This is as opaque/obstructing as it gets: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/f0Z9O.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
and this is as transparent as it gets. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/ePxfc.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
You can obviously see the difference.
So to make projectile spores work you would need to: 1) Make their area coverage 70% less, 2) Make them immediately transform into less opaque 3) Barely use any visual indication of their boundary 4) Limit the projectile to a shorter distance (ns2 iteration was faaarrr)
So to make trailing spores work you would need to: 1) Buff the lerk while sporing 2) <b>OR </b>give the lerk the same retreating bonus that every other paid for class gets such as blink, charge, bellyslide. They are counterable, the life form still takes damage, there's a tradeoff, but it adds to the skill ceiling of being able to survive an encounter /using your weapons. Currently the lerk just dies going for the door in the same manner a leapless skulk does after a fight.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1940123:date=May 30 2012, 08:07 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 30 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) according to some PT leads i spoke to recently, projectile spores were not used in competitive games that much anyways, so "comp" usage being a reason for change is not a good one, necessarily considering the problem plagued ns1's projectile spores as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know who you got this information from, but it is wrong. Using spores effectively was essential to maximizing alien efficiency. In part because it stripped marines from armor and made marines easier to kill for aliens and in part because constantly having to med marines being hurt by spores put a significant strain on the marine economy.
The last part was especially important during sieges. While certainly the other players on the team matter, who won a siege was often decided by whether or not the alien lerk(s) were able to put enough strain on the marine economy to make the siege untenable. Marines on the other hand had to make sure they had enough RTs up to maintain the siege.
Ufortunately this has changed in NS2, with armories giving health and armor back at supercharged speeds (another thing I would like to see changed).
Comments
quoting this forever
<!--quoteo(post=1939871:date=May 29 2012, 06:59 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 29 2012, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, back to my very specific NS2 design questions:
<ul><li>What makes the poison effect necessary?</li><li>Is the poison effect sufficient as a solution to whatever problem it was created for?</li><li>Will the lerk need to be rebalanced around a DoT mechanic? (trading free damage for viability in other situations, raw skill-indexed power)</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
GOGOGO!
<ul><li>What makes the poison effect necessary?</li><li>Is the poison effect sufficient as a solution to whatever problem it was created for?</li><li>Will the lerk need to be rebalanced around a DoT mechanic? (trading free damage for viability in other situations, raw skill-indexed power)</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ul><li>Bringing bite back as per requested, but with some distinction from skulk bite. (both for intuitive and practical reasons - you <i>are</i> spending 30 pres)</li><li>DoT model works out for the lerk which does not fare well the longer it stays in a room/ area. It is meant to harass. So in this regard it's definitely fitting.</li><li>No, as per ^</li></ul>
Personally, i'd prefer spikes with umbra over bite with spores. They are not complementary and do not protect the lerk when it enters or leaves a room -<b> the time frame where the lerk usually dies.</b> If you found the lerk in precarious scenarios before, try him when melee is required of him. Adjusting the hp/armor will help, but doesn't address the "ability to use his weapons" issue the lerk has always had without making him OP, <b>imo.</b>
We'll see, though.
I believe the developers have taken these things into consideration. Cory and Strayan have made several posts that indicate this. Why can't you wait until the next patch to decide whether or not a mistake has been made? Why do you preemptively jump on so many changes to the game?
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>SNIP - If you cannot engage with you your fellow human beings in a friendly and constructive way, your posting rights will be removed. End Snip.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I trust the developers about as much as the lerk is a viable class.
<!--quoteo(post=1939882:date=May 29 2012, 07:20 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 29 2012, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>Bringing bite back as per requested, but with some distinction from skulk bite. (both for intuitive and practical reasons - you <i>are</i> spending 30 pres)</li><li>DoT model works out for the lerk which does not fare well the longer it stays in a room/ area. It is meant to harass. So in this regard it's definitely fitting.</li><li>No, as per ^</li></ul>
Personally, i'd prefer spikes with umbra over bite with spores. They are not complementary and do not protect the lerk when it enters or leaves a room -<b> the time frame where the lerk usually dies.</b> If you found the lerk in precarious scenarios before, try him when melee is required of him. Adjusting the hp/armor will help, but doesn't address the "ability to use his weapons" issue the lerk has always had without making him OP, <b>imo.</b>
We'll see, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- Wasn't bite originally in the game (in spirit) as the shotgun spike? What was wrong with having a simple 'attack deals damage at the time of attacking' weapon?
- Isn't the point of the lerk to survive its attempts to deal damage by using its mobility, then attempt to deal damage again (and repeat)? You can do all this without any poison effects - people do it right now with spikes. The difference is that DoT gives the damage to players for free, whether they're actually good at surviving to perform repeat attacks or not. It actually goes against the design goal of "encouraging harassment and mobility" because it de-emphasizes decision making and repetition.
- I don't see how that means it won't be adjusted for the effect of the poison on the game, but we'll have to wait and see!
Melee is basically already required of the lerk - spores drop at point blank, bile bomb takes on very little momentum, spikes have rampup at close range and accuracy spread.
In the old days (like 5 months ago), lots of people were capable of being very effective with shotgun spikes (which also required melee-ranged fighting). The shotgun spike did not have some of its damage tied up in DoT effects, and we'll see eventually how that difference comes into the game in the large scale (or we won't, and it will be another forgettable ability on the list).
You can look at the lerk's bile bomb for a good example of what I mean. It does low damage, so you have to fly in repeatedly to drop bombs (and risk dying each time). However, it also does damage while you're flying away. As such, the damage done "up front" (in the time where you're vulnerable) is lower - if it wasn't this way, another aspect of the class would have to suffer in order to balance the power of the bile bomb. The end result? A weapon that still requires you to attack repeatedly (for low damage each time), risking your life over and over for a series of small gains that can easily be repaired, or mitigated entirely by killing you during a fly-by. The simpler, more straight forward design of "bile bomb deals damage only when it is used, so it can be more powerful up front" does not have this problem - it is much easier to balance it because everything about it happens in the time when the lerk is vulnerable. Lerks can be effective without relying on free damage, and marines can be more effective by doing the same things they were already doing (killing a lerk denies a larger amount of potential damage).
1) How much damage does the initial bite do vs the poison effect. 50-50? 25-75? 75-25? etc.
1.1) How much damage does the initial bite compare to a skulk's bite?
2) How long does the poison last?
3) At what percentage of HP does the poison no longer effect the Marines?
3.1) Does that mean anything below that percentage stops poison from being reapplied through another bite?
3.2) Does it only take one more lerk bites to kill the Marine once it hits that threshold? One? Two more?
4) Does the poison effect stack with repeated bites?
4.1) Why can't the poison finish the Marine off if that's the case?
4.2) If not (stackable), why not?
5) Why can't the poison finish the Marine off if they're low enough/haven't hit that threshold?
Most important one.
6) How will those that are new to the game/haven't read up on the lerk class an it's abilities realize that the lerk bite contains a dot and thus not gimping themselves or making themselves an easy target by repeatedly biting a marine?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, i'd prefer spikes with umbra over bite with spores.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer bite with (ranged) spores. Spikes still had to be used up close (practically melee range) to be effective enough because of how stupidly inaccurate they are.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The difference is that DoT gives the damage to players for free, whether they're actually good at surviving to perform repeat attacks or not. It actually goes against the design goal of "encouraging harassment and mobility" because it de-emphasizes decision making and repetition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not necessarily true. You still had to do that INITIAL bite to do any damage and be able apply the poison.
<ul><li>I support shotgun spikes over bite anyday for their group applications. (because lone marines are so common?? /sarcasm)</li><li>But getting hurt slowly, continuously,<i> is harassment</i> - whether you are in the room or not.</li><li>Melee <b>was not</b> required for the lerk, you could fly overhead at some height, and i personally spiked from a good distance with some success. Try to make this comparison only after trying the iteration in the next patch.</li><li>Spikes do not ramp up in damage when up close - it hasn't been like that for quite some time - although there is a fall off distance.</li><li>How would you make the lerk more effective?</li></ul>
@nubs, no to projectile spores. see related threads. Also, spikes and spores still dont protect you in any form - which is greatly needed for such a fragile class.
The thing I like about giving lerk bite back is to remove the long range attacks from the aliens, however using bite as a dot attacking might not be the best solution. Burst damage always wins over dot and if you are going into melee range you need burst damage if you are going to survive, otherwise it would be better to use something else.
I could also see the dot thing work in combo with the old shotgun spikes, where each spike hit would do X dot damage. This would force the lerk to get to close range to hit the spikes without forcing him into melee range without burst damage. This also fits more the supportive role since it will make it easier for skulk to land kills.
Well, I don't mind if lerk poison bite gets into the game it somewhat feels strange if it does not have a clear role to it considering the risk. It could just as well be bite.
*************************************
This is written without testing the current lerk bite, don't know how much damage it does...
Only thing I got out of "related threads" were a bunch of Marine main players crying because turtling was made harder due to projectile spores. Who wouldn't want the enemy to come to them inside their territory full of sentries and buddies with guns?
What was the saying? Don't bring a knife to a gunfight?
How do you feel about ARCs?
I think this is a post about lerk, its not the right place to discuss arcs. Its better that everyone stays on topic.
Personal arguments can be solved through pm's.
Personal arguments can be solved through pm's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, it's pretty on topic. Because countering ARCs is the same way you'd counter a Lerk shooting projectile spores.
You going to have to leave the comfort of your base to go kill the damn ######.
Wooh fellas, not all at once!
You make a post claiming I made an error by saying CS was 13 years old -- and then you complain about "(arguing) for the sake of arguing" when I correct your blatant misinformation? You really are a piece of work.
<!--fonto:Comic Sans MS--><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS"><!--/fonto-->bro it's a beta<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
You going to have to leave the comfort of your base to go kill the damn ######.
Wooh fellas, not all at once!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ARCs are defenseless against players and in plain sight. They can't hide in vents and shoot you back if you try to kill them. You can't compare a passive AI unit with a player-controlled flying class with long ranged weapons. Please stick on the topic.
But a good marine with a jp and GL in areas like warehouse hive is pretty damn hard to engage often game turning.
Difficulty in engaging an enemy happens from both sides.
If the lerk is going to need to get up close and risk a SG in teh face then the one bite he is hoping to get should do a fair chunk of damage, DoT offers the marine a chance to get healed (negative for aliens)..why not just deliver all the damage up front and help him get return on his gamble.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm all for variety among the different lifeforms and there are certainly alternatives to bite for the lerk. What I don't understand is why bite would make the lerk too similar to the skulk. Think of how it works on the marine side. Are the pistol, rifle and minigun the same, because they are all ranged projectile weapons?
No, there are several factors that differentiate them, like damage per hit, rate of fire, magazine size, effectiveness against structures and so on. These four alone are all applicable on melee weapons (magazine size becomes energy cost).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't forget the simplicity principle that Charlie said to be one of the most important thing in designing the game :
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remember, a designer achieves perfection when there is nothing left to take away. If the game can't function with bite/spikeshotgun as a simple "push button, get damage" weapon, fix that before adding more baggage in the form of poison, vampirism etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
About ranged spores, we know it works well because we have years of experience with them in ns1. If you don't believe me just go play some ns1 games and see for yourself, you might even have fun doing so! It doesn't imply that trail spore cannot work of course.
A difference that may be significant is that marines had hand grenades in ns1, helping clearing the vents. But I'm all for having hand grenades back.
A difference that may be significant is that marines had hand grenades in ns1, helping clearing the vents. But I'm all for having hand grenades back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another difference is the clear graphic of NS1. It was nearly impossible for an alien to hide in most parts of the maps. NS2 has much more detail, making it easier for the aliens to hide. Spores obscuring the view even more than umbra in NS1 did, making it even more difficult to spot the hidden lerk causing it.
Many things have changed from NS1 to NS2 and this is good. But it also means, that you can't simply take things from NS1 and say, they will work 1to1 in NS2. So instead of only copying existing stuff, it would be nice to focus on new things and taking a step to the front, not back.
The visibility problem can easily be solved by having a little spore cloud around the lerk when he shoots, or a trace like for the spikes. Or what about some colored spots on the wings like a beautiful butterfly ?
<img src="http://www.richard-seaman.com/Arthropods/Usa/Butterflies/Illinois/BuckeyeButterflyWingsExtended.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uAaalWAUOZI"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uAaalWAUOZI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
(watch from 42 sec)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAaalWAUOZI&t=0m42s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAaalWAUOZI&t=0m42s</a>
Could adapt it for a continuous spray approach too.
The current iteration of spores works badly. The most obvious clue is that we don't see competitively... ever. I find it very worrying that people can think it's working well when that is the case and I find it even more worrying that it's going to get more and more useless as performance increases. We either need to buff trailing spores or find a better solution and I think, in this case, a better solution is preferable.
I'm sceptical about vampiric bite and I don't really know, besides a lerk-theme, why it exists. Raza is right when he says that the bite is already distinguished very differently because of how the lerk plays and I also echo IE's philosophy of 'simple first, add later'. I don't necessarily think it's going to be a disaster but it sound like it might be unnecessary.
Many things have changed from NS1 to NS2 and this is good. But it also means, that you can't simply take things from NS1 and say, they will work 1to1 in NS2. So instead of only copying existing stuff, it would be nice to focus on new things and taking a step to the front, not back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference between the NS1 and NS2 Lerk, as of b208, is so insignificant, with the exception of bad client/server performance, that there's no reason to believe that the experience we had with the NS1 lerk doesn't translate directly to the NS2 lerk.
If you want to make an argument that the experience from NS1 isn't applicable to NS2, you're going to have to first convince the devs that the NS2 lerk needs to be a lot more different (which is a valid argument).
<!--quoteo(post=1939980:date=May 30 2012, 10:26 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ May 30 2012, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spores obscuring the view<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, there's a pretty simple fix for that...
I played lerk from 9 years now, i played hight level competitive match on ns1 and some of the first match of ns1 versus [DW] "Division Wikings" one the three first ns clan, long time ago before RaB and so ...
So im not a pro players but i know what i speak about and i think fana/yukii are right.
LERK BITE IS NECESSARY, vampiric or not.
RANGED SPORE IS BETTER THAN BOMBED, but not a obligation .
If you cant kill a lerk sporing your base from a vent or sporing a room, just learn how to kill him.
IF you whine everytime about something because you dont have the skill to respond, play play play and play and you will found a countermesure.
LERK in ns1 never or only on late game go rush MS and spore the MS , they have to support other lifeforme and fly over the map killing alone marines etc ...
if a lerk come to you base and start sporing just chass him if you have a little TP in your team, if a lerk block a room by sporing its entrance just rush throw spore and chass him, block him in corridor etc... do what we do in ns1 against lerk.
And i forgeted something ns2 new player dont know, when hmg lvl2 or 3 or jp are done lerk is not a problem its a target ( and you dont hear the lerk player whine because jp can fly or because hmg fire so quick if you died as lerk that your fault if you died as marine thaht your fault)....
Remember a good lerk will spore marine only on some occasion, else he just fly over and bite them and escape to comeback and re bite them etcc the spored is great when you have 3-4 marine and you know whitout focus you cant go rush them whit bite, so spore can make them losse a little hp and is the most important =>make marines dispersing at everywhere on the room and make him more easy to kill on crazy lerk rush :) ...
Now please stop whining or comparate your ###### in walltext post about game theory or something, IT WORKED FROM 10 YEAR NOW, TESTED AND TESTED AGAIN !! BITE WHIT SPORE RANGED IS THE BEST FOR LERK .
AND NS2 lerk is very similar to ns1 lerk in his fly, if you do the good old mouvement like ns1 lerk movement whit the hitreg not working when at hight speed you cannot be killed in flying .... just practice on practice... but dont whine plz and dont ruin my "thank "post by posting some rubbish post about what you dont know about ns1 gameplay , ns1 lerk and ns2 lerk and game play...
See you when you will have the hmg/jp we will see if you have the same statement that lerk is OP or ranged spore is OP .....
Peace!!!
TuX?!
IMO, the current implementation of Spore Trail is in need of improvements. Sure, it is easy to use. But it does not scale well with skill levels of players on both teams.
The effectiveness of "cropdusting" decreases significantly against experienced Marines, who can easily shoot the Lerk down, while avoiding the spores. Lerk would be caught in a catch-22, where attacking would mean likely death, while retreating would cause the alien team to lose ground.
If Spore Trail is to stay, I would like to see it creating a much bigger cloud (slowly expanding radius of 3-6m), while costing more energy. That would add more weight to the decision of the timing of each Spore cloud, making Spore Trail a more fun and rewarding ability.
The effectiveness of "cropdusting" decreases significantly against experienced Marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1940058:date=May 30 2012, 05:06 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ May 30 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Spore Trail is to stay, I would like to see it creating a much bigger cloud (slowly expanding radius of 3-6m), while costing more energy. That would add more weight to the decision of the timing of each Spore cloud, making Spore Trail a more fun and rewarding ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're highlighting the basic problem with trail-spores. If you buff it too much, it becomes overpowered and annoying against weak marines and in public games. If it's too weak, it becomes absolutely useless at higher levels of play.
..therefore the best solution would be to try re-implementing projectile spores.
You see, you can make either one work, projectile spores, or trailing spores - with a little bit of work.
But two things to consider first:
1) according to some PT leads i spoke to recently, projectile spores were not used in competitive games that much anyways, so "comp" usage being a reason for change is not a good one, necessarily considering the problem plagued ns1's projectile spores as well.
2) the devs feel the sporing mechanic fits the role better and gets the lerk into the fight - a viewpoint i obviously agree on.
before we continue though here's some reference shots of why projectile spores worked in ns1:
This is as opaque/obstructing as it gets:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/f0Z9O.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
and this is as transparent as it gets.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/ePxfc.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
You can obviously see the difference.
So to make projectile spores work you would need to:
1) Make their area coverage 70% less,
2) Make them immediately transform into less opaque
3) Barely use any visual indication of their boundary
4) Limit the projectile to a shorter distance (ns2 iteration was faaarrr)
So to make trailing spores work you would need to:
1) Buff the lerk while sporing
2) <b>OR </b>give the lerk the same retreating bonus that every other paid for class gets such as blink, charge, bellyslide. They are counterable, the life form still takes damage, there's a tradeoff, but it adds to the skill ceiling of being able to survive an encounter /using your weapons. Currently the lerk just dies going for the door in the same manner a leapless skulk does after a fight.
I don't know who you got this information from, but it is wrong. Using spores effectively was essential to maximizing alien efficiency. In part because it stripped marines from armor and made marines easier to kill for aliens and in part because constantly having to med marines being hurt by spores put a significant strain on the marine economy.
The last part was especially important during sieges. While certainly the other players on the team matter, who won a siege was often decided by whether or not the alien lerk(s) were able to put enough strain on the marine economy to make the siege untenable. Marines on the other hand had to make sure they had enough RTs up to maintain the siege.
Ufortunately this has changed in NS2, with armories giving health and armor back at supercharged speeds (another thing I would like to see changed).