CC hp
elodea
Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Please increase CC hp. thanks.
ns1 cc had 10k hp. ns2 cc has 5k.
Im sick of aliens being able to win any game they choose to with cheap ass cc sniping whether with lerks, or with lerks + skulks, or hell it doesnt really matter what lifeform you are. And dont say marines should have built a 2nd cc or that they should have left marines in base to defend, or that they should just beacon because their absolutely stupid reasons if you actually go up against co-ordinated aliens. It doesn't even become a game of map control.
1) Any good commander knows that building a 2nd CC anywhere under 10 minutes is absolutely unfeasible in terms of resources
2) Leaving marines to defend the base simply splits your forces up, making the entire team less effective as a whole. Not to mention it's pretty bad game design where you need someone to do an incredibly boring task of staying in base to defend just to buy a couple extra seconds. I would rather rely on the mobility of beacon and phasegates - neither of which are able to transport marines back into base with enough time left to defend seeing as the CC goes down in 5 - 10 seconds.
3) Even beaconing as soon as aliens start attacking the CC does not leave your marines enough time to kill all the aliens in time.
Normally this wouldnt be a problem in a normal pub game, but where you get smart aliens co-ordinating and timing their snipe when you have marines killing their 2nd hive, you just dont have a chance. Even when marines are absolutely winning with map control and resource superiority, all aliens need to do is snipe the CC.
ns1 cc had 10k hp. ns2 cc has 5k.
Im sick of aliens being able to win any game they choose to with cheap ass cc sniping whether with lerks, or with lerks + skulks, or hell it doesnt really matter what lifeform you are. And dont say marines should have built a 2nd cc or that they should have left marines in base to defend, or that they should just beacon because their absolutely stupid reasons if you actually go up against co-ordinated aliens. It doesn't even become a game of map control.
1) Any good commander knows that building a 2nd CC anywhere under 10 minutes is absolutely unfeasible in terms of resources
2) Leaving marines to defend the base simply splits your forces up, making the entire team less effective as a whole. Not to mention it's pretty bad game design where you need someone to do an incredibly boring task of staying in base to defend just to buy a couple extra seconds. I would rather rely on the mobility of beacon and phasegates - neither of which are able to transport marines back into base with enough time left to defend seeing as the CC goes down in 5 - 10 seconds.
3) Even beaconing as soon as aliens start attacking the CC does not leave your marines enough time to kill all the aliens in time.
Normally this wouldnt be a problem in a normal pub game, but where you get smart aliens co-ordinating and timing their snipe when you have marines killing their 2nd hive, you just dont have a chance. Even when marines are absolutely winning with map control and resource superiority, all aliens need to do is snipe the CC.
Comments
Its still possible to lerk rush. Do i really need to provide information that is quite obvious?
ns1 cc had 10k hp. ns2 cc has 5k.
Im sick of aliens being able to win any game they choose to with cheap ass cc sniping whether with lerks, or with lerks + skulks, or hell it doesnt really matter what lifeform you are. And dont say marines should have built a 2nd cc or that they should have left marines in base to defend, or that they should just beacon because their absolutely stupid reasons if you actually go up against co-ordinated aliens. It doesn't even become a game of map control.
1) Any good commander knows that building a 2nd CC anywhere under 10 minutes is absolutely unfeasible in terms of resources
2) Leaving marines to defend the base simply splits your forces up, making the entire team less effective as a whole. Not to mention it's pretty bad game design where you need someone to do an incredibly boring task of staying in base to defend just to buy a couple extra seconds. I would rather rely on the mobility of beacon and phasegates - neither of which are able to transport marines back into base with enough time left to defend seeing as the CC goes down in 5 - 10 seconds.
3) Even beaconing as soon as aliens start attacking the CC does not leave your marines enough time to kill all the aliens in time.
Normally this wouldnt be a problem in a normal pub game, but where you get smart aliens co-ordinating and timing their snipe when you have marines killing their 2nd hive, you just dont have a chance. Even when marines are absolutely winning with map control and resource superiority, all aliens need to do is snipe the CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 IS NOT NS1!
1. Lerk sniping cc = macs repair it, marines can snipe a hive either
2. not needed, sentry do this job
3. what are you talking about? phase gate, mines, obs recall.
Marines can just place another cc.
Doubling the CC hp, so it's the same as NS1, seems feasable, as the NS2 CC is much bigger, and it's alot easier for skulks to hide behind it.
Too many games are too easily won by CC rushes.
1. Lerk sniping cc = macs repair it, marines can snipe a hive either
2. not needed, sentry do this job<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if your serious or trolling. I did not refer to NS1 just for ###### and giggles. There was no, "oh most of the marines are attacking our 2nd hive! lets kill their CC and win in under 10 seconds!". NS1 is in many ways very similar to NS2 and having CC's at a much higher ammount must have had an obvious design reason behind it.
Let me put it to you this way. Every single game, aliens have the option to CC snipe. According to you, this means every single game the marines MUST build a robotics. You have obviously never commed properly or against any alien team worth their salt or you would know that building robotics, macs and sentries in the early to mid game is the biggest most humungous waste of resources you can commit to. You make no sense and dont understand that resources are limited - you can't do everything at the same time. How on earth do you expect marines to have robotics, mac, turret, mines, obs, phasegates, shotguns and upgrades on the way in under 8-10 minutes? (The 2nd hive is finished at around this timing). Mines are ok against skulks, but how are they supposed to stop lerks?
Maybe if i put it to you clearly like this. If the metagame was such that the marines needed to guard against CC snipes by building early 2nd CC, robotics, mines, turrets. then at gamestart the marine commander would need to pick between two different options. One would be the 'try to win' strategy, get phasegates, shotguns, upgrades, resource and map control which is not enough to provide a reasonable safeguard against CC sniping. The other option would be the 'prolong the loss' strategy you have proposed which would safeguard against CC sniping but would cost you the game anyway.
Also, hive hp is a totally different matter. Lets say the hive has 1 hp. Does this mean its OK for the CC to also have 1 hp? I am not addressing hive/cc hp parity here - i am addressing CC SNIPABILITY and the effect it has on the metagame.
Its like if you were playing SC and instead of being able to wall in with supply depots, barracks and other buildings that you were going to build and need anyway, you had to buy a specific 'wall' building that significantly crippled your economy and was easily countered with mid game units anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1905459:date=Feb 22 2012, 01:15 AM:name=RTV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RTV @ Feb 22 2012, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. what are you talking about? phase gate, mines, obs recall.
Marines can just place another cc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1905477:date=Feb 22 2012, 02:21 AM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Feb 22 2012, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's because there are to many scrubs in the game. People cant aim and do as they want too........ Comm chair is fine and hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both of you obviously didn't read my post at all. I would refer you to the key point i am making which is that the CC still goes down too quickly in 5-10 seconds at the most. A beacon takes 4 seconds and doesn't leave enough time to stop a full on alien CC snipe. Phasegates are too slow if your team are not in close proximity to the phasegate (which they arn't because they're attacking the 2nd hive).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If marines have map control they should have more then one CC...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think i addressed this already. The ns2 tech tree is very much similar to the ns1 tech tree in terms of the costs and timings. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a 2nd CC in an NS1 build order, so why should it be expected in an NS2 build order? As soon as there's room in the budget to build a 2nd CC then you would have a point, but under 10 minutes?
I guess maybe you could add some self repair to them? I have seen them die once or twice because the comm didn't notice they were accumulating damage, but otherwise they're probably the toughest structure in the base, taking into account that they tend to be located some distance from the door and aliens are melee only.
Hives on the other hand can and often are shot from across the room, by an entire squad of marines, I've never seen four or five skulks killing the CC at once, so they tend to be more survivable.
Especially if you use macs to repair them/nanoshield to make them extremely tough for a while, you should be able to keep them alive long enough for marines to clear out the threat at the very least.
Yes, i never had this problem either for a while, because i never played against aliens who instead of defending the 2nd hive simply rushed your CC. I never had this problem either because the aliens were either not co-ordinated enough or too gentlemanly to lerk rush.
Yes, hives could do with a buff too, but im specifically concerned with CC hp in this thread.
On the topic of using MACS, you either glitch them into your CC/techpoint so that they repair forever and the aliens can't attack them, or they die almost instantly from aliens targeting them first. I would rather not use any glitches.
Further, they really shouldn't be able to get into the base unopposed, you should have a marine or two in base anyway, because of spawning, if nobody is spawning then nobody is dying and that means you must be annihiliating the hive. You should also have a turret or two, because you need macs to repair anything, and simple logic will dictate that a game where marines cannot repair lost structure hitpoints is one they'll lose very quickly. One or two turrets covering the doors or the cc should slow down the attack/distract it/kill enough of it to give you time to beacon the team in, throw a nanoshield on the CC, and send the mac you have in base for repairs to negate 500 HP worth of damage to the CC.
I really don't get how you can lose the base to a rush without losing the IPs and all your marines, this isn't like aliens where five marines in the hive room is something really hard to attack and also really dangerous to the hive, five aliens in the base means you teleport everyone back and the aliens are at a huge disadvantage.
If it was five or so fades then fair enough, but lerks? They die incredibly quickly if they hang around because they have such low HP, skulks die even faster and can't fly.
I've been rushed quite a few times by squads of aliens but the worst they can do is reset your attack by making you beacon, if they do it lots they can actually seriously stall you, but they can't do any actual damage to the base.
1.) The results are often dramatic. Losing your only CC is pretty much a instant loss. You better commit damn a lot of firepower to win a game by taking out a single building. It's far more interesting if you've got multiple targets like armslab, armory, obs and all that, all resulting in some situational advantage.
2.) CC is the building you've got the least say placement wise. Usually in games I can shut down some vulnerabilities by placing buildings smart, maybe at the cost of some easy access or maybe at the cost of leaving open other vulnerabilities. Meanwhile the CC pretty much sits where it was first set and the commander has very little say on how he copes with the possible vulnerability.
3.) The commander hopping out is an important threat for any baserusher. As a baserusher you're facing the dynamics of picking a target that allows you defend yourself while still dealing damage to the base. Going directly to the CC kills the one sure threat in the base, making the whole thing much simpler for the alien (and much less interesting for the commander too).
---
That being said I don't really have enough practical knowledge of NS2 to argue much further than theory.
True, but you are misunderstanding me i think. My point involves marines attacking the 2nd hive and aliens deliberately responding by rushing the CC (not whether they can spare players or not). I repeat, 2nd hive! You see, this presents a problem. If you send 75% of your marines to attack the hive, and 25% of your marines to defend the base, then the aliens will attack your base as a whole team, kill your pitifully outnumbered defending marines and then proceed to murder your CC before the first defending marine to die can even spawn back. If you send 25% of your team to kill the hive, and 75% of your team to defend the base, then aliens will simply defend the hive and profit. This is the advantage of alien mobility and a techtree which is built around having more than 1 hive. In this way, whether they can get into your base unopposed is not even a consideration.
And please, guys.. stop trying to defend the current CC hp design by bringing up turrets. Having turrets this early in the game is gg for marines unless your doing a sentry push/contain or something that is offensive. Also, using a mac that costs 5 res as a meatshield with a mere 500 hp is pretty stupid forgive me. That's a full 1.25 times the cost of a CC (robotics + mac) for an extra 10% hp which extends the life expectancy of your CC by at most 1 second.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't get how you can lose the base to a rush without losing the IPs and all your marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. This is my point. Having the CC with such a low ammount of hp makes ns2 a game about sniping and going to silly lengths to protect CC's, not a game about player vs player. I am all for aliens being able to respond tactically to take advantage of marines not sufficiently defending their base, but the CC currently dies way too quick for marines to respond in any reasonable degree.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->five aliens in the base means you teleport everyone back and the aliens are at a huge disadvantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually no, the aliens forced the beacon. It is the marines who are at the disadvantage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it was five or so fades then fair enough, but lerks? They die incredibly quickly if they hang around because they have such low HP, skulks die even faster and can't fly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I challenge you to actually try a lerk rush, or a counter rush in game, co-ordinating and working together as a whole team and be shocked at how fast that CC actually goes down. I made this thread as a result of actual ingame experience. Lerks may die quickly, but who dies quicker? The CC or 8 lerks?
Also, I don't like the 'build a 2nd CC' option. Its only 20 TRes, but its not like marines are swimming in TRes most of the time. The tech nodes in most rooms are also usually isolated from the power/res nodes, making defending all three in an expansion hard or costly. I usually prefer to skip defending the tech node area so I can better defend either the power or res node (think PG/sentries/armory next to the power node).
As said by elodea its 2nd hive bait, means you scout marines... if 70% marines are forming an attack to your 2nd hive and you get most of your team inside the marinebase, there will be nothing to welder...
I didnt test the command station but it only has 1000hp? more, a powernode can be killed by a single skulk in ~25s, lerk 30s, gorge 20s(bb)... if you have 5+aliens in your base every structure is down before a beacon finishes. (even if the commander has superhuman reactions and instantly presses beacon the second aliens attack, and even if the beacon works you will lose the structure)
And as scardybob said - that time into the game marines dont have the res and tech to hold 2CCs, they might be able to drop one the second they realize you cant stop aliens from destroying the CC or powernode anymore... but then marines have to get to this CC first which might be far away if they didnt manage to kill the hive that fast...
Also the option to rush the main hive after killing the 2nd hive wont work(ok it might work if the timing was very bad by aliens, but i havent seen it yet - usually marines are nearly or out of ammo maybe even damaged)... there are still static defences, you can still have 1-2 aliens protecting and you can send most/all aliens back depending on what you focused.
This sounds very difficult but its a lot easier for aliens to do than you think just a matter of communication and scouting.
Hive has 5000 HP and 500 AP
The CC dies too quickly from an alien snipe. I'm not talking about being able to repair damage inbetween attacks on the CC. I am talking about an all in once and for all dead CC in less than 10 seconds. Welding has nothing to do with the problem unless your suggesting marines stand there weld tanking the CC and acting as meat shields..
- Beacon
- Turrets
- Phase gate
- Marines guarding/welding base
- Macs in base ready to weld
P.S. Points are "moot", not "mute"
- Beacon
- Turrets
- Phase gate
- Marines guarding/welding base
- Macs in base ready to weld
P.S. Points are "moot", not "mute"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok i give up. I know im not normally very good at explaining my self, but it seems that the only way for some of you to understand my point is to record a game. where this counter rushing happens.
-Welders won't help since the CC simply dies, not chipped down over long time.
-Mines would help if they were viable to buy, atm it hurts the marine team to much to buy mines over weapons, mines are also kinda weak in ns2 because there are to many ways to get rid of them(weak for their cost I mean).
-Turrets won't work because marines will probably not be at the point were they can afford turrets when this happens, most of the time this happens at the same time marines are trying to kill the alien hive.
-There is no real scouting mechanism to prevent this atm, motion tracking is not in the game.
The alien base rush should be powerful, but they can kill marine structures (ip's, obs, arms lab) and hurt them plenty in that way. It's really bad they have 50/50% chance to win the game instantly with this kinda rush.
This won't happen to aliens, Marines have less mobility and will always be spotted way before they enter the hive.
The only effect it will have on the gameplay is CC won't be the building of choice when aliens attack the base. Games will still end just as fast.
This is why I believe in rotating start positions, as it emphasis the importance of improvisation in 'natural selection'.
When constructing a base you want
- 1 IP in a position that can be mined or perched.
- An armory that has a VIEW OF POWER NODE.
- Then a second IP (For pub matches, atleast).
Setting the armory as far back in the base as possible is (among other things) cowardice.
This is impractical in a real match(competitive match). Marines can't really afford to waste res on a 2nd command chair, also they won't have the mobility and the manpower to defend it.
Because of this weakness I always try to keep 1 nano shield ready when needed, this however isn't always enough. Also if you nano shield the command chair the aliens can go for the power node that dies just as fast, but that's for another threat. At least it doesn't end the game instantly. But if it goes down aliens can usually pick out the marines since they lose all their upgrades.
Because of this weakness I always try to keep 1 nano shield ready when needed, this however isn't always enough. Also if you nano shield the command chair the aliens can go for the power node that dies just as fast, but that's for another threat. At least it doesn't end the game instantly. But if it goes down aliens can usually pick out the marines since they lose all their upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More harrasing, less head-assault.
More defending existing towers, less re-building.
For a long match it's going to be necessary to build an extra CC.
Having said that, I think the cost of a proto could be reduced (and maybe even equipment cost) if a 2nd CC is required to preform the upgrade (for jetpack/exosuit).
Its kinda like saying, just build more ips, build the 2nd hive faster, or kill eggs or hives faster instead of addressing problems with respawnrates.
By that logic the game is already perfectly balanced, we just need to adjust our playstyle and tactics - nothing wrong with the game.
It can be an upgrade for pres or increased base cost for the CC but it needs more health, hives maybe too.
The problem as I see it is that marines often lose by surprise loss of their CS. There are a few contributing factors
- Cloak being OP / Observatory passive radius not disrupting cloak (bug? it shows a radius & was like that in NS1).
- Voiceover warnings ("The command station is under attack") can trigger too late, or too easily, and does not perpetuate or escalate.
- Bile bomb being generally OP
- It's very easy to get some early damage on the CS, before RF/MACs are ready.
If the first three points are addressed by design changes then the last point simply affects strategy. At that point, I honestly think that the solution is largely that marines should build a second CS. One negative consequence for marines is that you just create a second target for the aliens - they can just attack the least defended CS. So you also need a second Obs there for beacon. Now you have extra scanning and shield power which really should not be underestimated. Phase gates are the next best thing while turrets are a minor deterrent/damage soak.
<b>Where balance gets screwed up is that the marines aren't always forced to make that investment.</b>
Not building a second CS and Obs saves 30 res which you can dump in to weapons or tech. Not building a RF/MAC saves another 25. This is a higher risk/reward deal, so it's not really reasonble to complain when it doesn't work out. That said, I think the risk favours marines, so it's really up to the skulks to stop getting caught up in the deathmatch mentalitiy (especially with marines outspawning aliens) and get out there and do some damage to the marine structures.
A radial solution would be for an Arms Lab to require a second CS.