<!--quoteo(post=1905510:date=Feb 22 2012, 04:27 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 22 2012, 04:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True, but you are misunderstanding me i think. My point involves marines attacking the 2nd hive and aliens deliberately responding by rushing the CC (not whether they can spare players or not). I repeat, 2nd hive!...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If that's the problem, then isn't the answer for the marine comm to be especially vigilant with knowing where the aliens are? Scan and be ready to beacon when you see an alien rush coming to the base (ie: not once they've already started attacking)
<!--quoteo(post=1905699:date=Feb 21 2012, 11:01 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Feb 21 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->elodea has a point, but I don't think just adding more HP is necessarily the right solution. I do agree that leaving a marine to defend or using beacon aren't really answers. Rather than start by proposing a solution I think it's more important to detail the problem.
The problem as I see it is that marines often lose by surprise loss of their CS. There are a few contributing factors - Cloak being OP / Observatory passive radius not disrupting cloak (bug? it shows a radius & was like that in NS1). - Voiceover warnings ("The command station is under attack") can trigger too late, or too easily, and does not perpetuate or escalate. - Bile bomb being generally OP - It's very easy to get some early damage on the CS, before RF/MACs are ready.
If the first three points are addressed by design changes then the last point simply affects strategy. At that point, I honestly think that the solution is largely that marines should build a second CS. One negative consequence for marines is that you just create a second target for the aliens - they can just attack the least defended CS. So you also need a second Obs there for beacon. Now you have extra scanning and shield power which really should not be underestimated. Phase gates are the next best thing while turrets are a minor deterrent/damage soak.
<b>Where balance gets screwed up is that the marines aren't always forced to make that investment.</b>
Not building a second CS and Obs saves 30 res which you can dump in to weapons or tech. Not building a RF/MAC saves another 25. This is a higher risk/reward deal, so it's not really reasonble to complain when it doesn't work out. That said, I think the risk favours marines, so it's really up to the skulks to stop getting caught up in the deathmatch mentalitiy (especially with marines outspawning aliens) and get out there and do some damage to the marine structures.
A radial solution would be for an Arms Lab to require a second CS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you Khyron for accually giving reasoning with your thoughts, however this is another case this looks good on paper but won't work. I do agree with obs should be able to disrupt cloak and voiceover warnings do need improvements. If I thought that would be enough to fix the issue I would not have suggested a major change like increasing CS health. It's also true that a 2nd obs is really good and it's not uncommon for a commander to get a 2nd obs, even so they try to do it as sparingly as possible (since it does cost 10 res). This only happens when marines are getting the upper hand and commander has res to spare.
Now could do a good and long writeup on how competitive matches are played but I think it's best if you would watch few matches for yourself and decide afterward if this tactic is possible or not. Preferably listening to one of the teams at the same time. The only timing where you can place down a 2nd command chair is when your team has complete control of the map(in most cases got the 2nd hive down and with all rt's) and all upgrades/weapons needed to be able to fight the alien back. Even then it's still a heavy investment and could give the alien chance to come back into the game depending of the situation. The 2nd command chair can also be easily picked off because you need these 2 phase gates in key position on the map(you never want to have more than 2 phase gates out on the field at the same time, meaning it may not be next to a tech point). Also forcing marines to defend a 2nd command chair slows their push down allot and give little to no reward. I hope I could make this clear enough, if not, please tell me why.
,,A radial solution would be for an Arms Lab to require a second CS." - This comment didn't make any sense.
For once, I would like to hear 1 good reason why the command chair hp should be this low. The only difference increasing the CC's hp would make is that it will take aliens few more sec to end the game when they have already killed the marine base. Can someone give me a good reason why it should not be increased?
<!--quoteo(post=1905713:date=Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now could do a good and long writeup on how competitive matches are played but I think it's best if you would watch few matches for yourself...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most of the competitive matches I've seen push the risk/reward envelope to the max. They are the fastest games with heavy emphasis on group rushing. A lot of those teams would say if you need to build a RoboFac, you've already lost. Rarely do the marines reach tech level 2. I have no problem with that style of gameplay, it's exciting. Obviously pub games are different.
Clan matches will always push the game mechanics to the bare bones, whatever the mechanics are. You could choose to design a game based on what happens in clan games. I'm pretty sure we woudn't see stuff as cool or as fun as jetpacks or flamethrowers though. So at some point I think you have to design for pub games and let clan games play within those mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=1905713:date=Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you never want to have more than 2 phase gates out on the field at the same time, meaning it may not be next to a tech point<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are a few different ways to take advantage of phase gates. I'd agree that you get diminishing returns from phase gates. 3 is still quite viable. Again, pub vs clan results will differ.
<!--quoteo(post=1905713:date=Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->,,A radial solution would be for an Arms Lab to require a second CS." - This comment didn't make any sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^radical solution. If that still doesn't make sense read on: If the cost of a second CC (plus defending it) doesn't match up to the perception of its worth, then you can increase the perception of it's worth without changing its cost. Want an arms lab? Secure a second tech point (with a byproduct of CS redundancy). Can't secure a second tech point? No upgrades and a faster marine loss. Since making that comment I've read that this is kinda how it used to be... apparently there was some mechanism which restricted tech levels to the number of tech points marines hold.
<!--quoteo(post=1905713:date=Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For once, I would like to hear 1 good reason why the command chair hp should be this low. The only difference increasing the CC's hp would make is that it will take aliens few more sec to end the game when they have already killed the marine base. Can someone give me a good reason why it should not be increased?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm all for small changes to refine NS. I just can't imagine a small change (+/- 10%, say) will fix this. Can you be specific about how much more HP it should have? On paper I think 3 Onos can kill a CS in 5 seconds, 4 Gorges can bile bomb it 7 seconds. What kind of increase are you going to need for a 9v9 game?
Another way of looking at this is that it's kind of circular to say a second CS is "not worth it" and then complain about losing because you don't have a second CS. In fact, for 20 res you basically make impossible one of the alien's paths to victory.
Also, increasing the HP will lead to more risk taking and less demand for a second CS. I'm not sure if you're advocating that Marines should have a riskless path to victory with only one CS. I wouldn't agree to that.
Lastly, I'm also concerned that going down that path will lead to more stalemates on pub games. Remember that pub games are the lifeblood of the community and surely the biggest source of revenue for UWE.
it goes beyond just defending and being ready to defend.
the aliens have the mobility to basically show a 'threat' of killing your cc in 10 seconds. they won't even need to do it
every time you want to push a hive, they just need to rush your base and force a beacon/pg, anything.. then they run off again and wait for the 2nd hive to finish building.
btw, i was in some of the games where elodea was comm and we rushed his CC.. it was funny :p
Alien rushes destroy any fun this game is. Many matches I join / round starts and skulks start rushing base and we can't do anything but defend and die.
Skulks are SO powerful. LMG's are nearly useless on them if they come in pairs. I saw a skulk kill 3 Marines, all shooting at it, and I saw blood splatter, as it just did 360 and random jerky movements and killed all of them.
Increasing the HP of the CC will do nothing. I don't know how the game is played competitive. But on pup servers, the CC <u>never</u> gets down on the first rush. So you rush again and again. If you increase the HP you only increase the amount of rushes needed till the game ends.
So the real problems are the following:<ul><li>the OBS don't passive decloak near aliens</li><li>there are no welders jet</li><li>the hit registration seems bugy</li></ul> When this points are fixed and your team can't handle the first rushes, they deserve to lose. You need how many shots with an LMG to kill a skulk? And the whole team can't stop a few incoming skulks before they can chew down the CC? Sorry, but what you are all debating on, results on the 3 mentioned points. If they are fixed we can talk about changing HP of the CC to counter 1-rush-CC-down-tactics.
<!--quoteo(post=1905656:date=Feb 22 2012, 12:13 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 22 2012, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a very good counter measure: Get a second Comm Station up. You will have more Nano Shields, which can prolong the life of the CS dramatically (to up to 10 000 HP). Even if the aliens take it down, it's won't be game over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm really not sure.. Putting aside how gimmicky it feels to me to still expect multiple CC's so much despite having removed multiple commanders, lets assume you get 2nd CC + one IP (30 res, not 20) instead of upgrades. Ok, the aliens rushed your main base and killed your CC while you killed 2nd hive. They also killed the obs in your main base so you can't beacon back there and now proceed to lose every single structure in there. You are now back to one IP with no other structures and one less RT, aliens one techpoint away, and your marines totally out of position in their dead 2nd hive. If you continue to their 1st hive, aliens will simply snipe your CC again.
Like grissi has pointed out. This seems good on paper but in actuality it means you've lost. If aliens don't snipe your CC again, you've lost so many buildings and spent 30 res on redundancy so early that you dont have the res to continue to do anything. Maybe this is part of the problem, but there is a bug where you can't nanoshield the CC sometimes as it chooses to nanoshield the techpoint or something instead.
<!--quoteo(post=1905703:date=Feb 22 2012, 02:19 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Feb 22 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If that's the problem, then isn't the answer for the marine comm to be especially vigilant with knowing where the aliens are? Scan and be ready to beacon when you see an alien rush coming to the base (ie: not once they've already started attacking)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1905799:date=Feb 22 2012, 08:59 PM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Feb 22 2012, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the aliens have the mobility to basically show a 'threat' of killing your cc in 10 seconds. they won't even need to do it every time you want to push a hive, they just need to rush your base and force a beacon/pg, anything.. then they run off again and wait for the 2nd hive to finish building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Looks like ogz beat me to it -> If you prescan, the aliens will see they've been spotted so they continue their push untill they hear the more pre-emptive beacon and simply run away, resulting in a forced beacon. Your back in the same position with 70 less obs energy and the hive being slightly more completed.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Measles)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The REAL problem with marine base defences is the crappy symmetrical lay-put 99% of players use when as Commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, well none of that really matters if their ravaging your CC does it. Not to say i dont agree with you though.
<!--quoteo(post=1905554:date=Feb 21 2012, 10:06 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 21 2012, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CC has 2000 HP and 1500 AP Hive has 5000 HP and 500 AP<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I test it, as marine it takes 47 seconds to kill a hive with a axe without any upgrades as skulk it takes 31 seconds to kill the cc. Thats a diffrence of just 16 seconds and the marines only use the axe without GL, without shotgun, without rifle, pistol or any upgrade.
The funny thing with shotgun it takes (with reloading!!!!) about 50 seconds. with Gl 40 second. all this only with one marine and no upgrades.
Edit: with upgrades it takes ... to kill a hive:
axe = 36 seconds with weapon #3 upgrade GL = 33 seconds with weapon #3 upgrade Shotgun = not tested rifle melee = ages...don't fully testet, after 20 seconds, the hive had 84 or 89% left.
<!--QuoteBegin-'Price'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Price')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, axe does the most dps to hive :). I think even more than shotgun taking into account reload.
<!--quoteo(post=1906284:date=Feb 23 2012, 03:56 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 23 2012, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, axe does the most dps to hive :). I think even more than shotgun taking into account reload.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> axe did a lot of damage you see now after i edit ^^ maybe thats why i always use axe in the game instead of the other weapons to kill a hive, in my mind i knew it haha
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1905809:date=Feb 22 2012, 11:52 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Feb 22 2012, 11:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Increasing the HP of the CC will do nothing. I don't know how the game is played competitive. But on pup servers, the CC <u>never</u> gets down on the first rush. So you rush again and again. If you increase the HP you only increase the amount of rushes needed till the game ends.
So the real problems are the following:<ul><li>the OBS don't passive decloak near aliens</li><li>there are no welders jet</li><li>the hit registration seems bugy</li></ul> When this points are fixed and your team can't handle the first rushes, they deserve to lose. You need how many shots with an LMG to kill a skulk? And the whole team can't stop a few incoming skulks before they can chew down the CC? Sorry, but what you are all debating on, results on the 3 mentioned points. If they are fixed we can talk about changing HP of the CC to counter 1-rush-CC-down-tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What about situations where aliens use vents to just bypass marines and go for the CC? It is possible on every single map. Just 3 skulks, or 2 gorges bilebombing on the CC, and you won't be able to save it with a beacon. You aren't able to walk back from your first extractor points in time to save it. The CC definitly needs a HP increase, and I'd say using the NS1 value is not entirely stupid, I'd say it would solve these issues. And the same to the hives obviously.
<!--quoteo(post=1906325:date=Feb 23 2012, 07:30 PM:name=ÒŗăNģё)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ÒŗăNģё @ Feb 23 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is everyone forgetting about the nano shield?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah but the com don't use it much, thats the problem. but i also forget it, good point.
Geez, you guys that say CC is too weak are on crack. Welders! WELDERS!
Also, if you still think "But it can still be rushed!". Well, yeah. That's part of the game. If your team can't stop a rush, you've just lost the game to a better team. Marine wins are now up to 40%. I'd say a good 10% of alien wins (atleast) are succesful early game skulk rushes on the CC where marines prematurely leave the base, leave and don't return, or just get their asses whipped.
Anyway, the game is fairly balanced compared to previous builds. The welder, I think, will literally CHANGE THE GAME. Once it's in, threads like these may never pop up again.
<!--quoteo(post=1906403:date=Feb 24 2012, 09:33 AM:name=Deity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deity @ Feb 24 2012, 09:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People are terrible about shielding structures. So many "cheap" alien wins could be avoided by shielding the CC and/or the base power node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> er. Throughout this thread i've been saying the CC goes down in under 10 seconds. This timing has been taking into account nanoshield the whole time(even though its almost impossible to shield the CC atm due to a bug).
<!--quoteo(post=1906507:date=Feb 24 2012, 05:48 PM:name=Krizzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krizzen @ Feb 24 2012, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Geez, you guys that say CC is too weak are on crack. Welders! WELDERS! [...] Anyway, the game is fairly balanced compared to previous builds. The welder, I think, will literally CHANGE THE GAME. Once it's in, threads like these may never pop up again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The CC dies too quickly from an alien snipe. I'm not talking about being able to repair damage inbetween attacks on the CC. I am talking about an all in once and for all dead CC in less than 10 seconds. Welding has nothing to do with the problem unless your suggesting marines stand there weld tanking the CC and acting as meat shields..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is far from balanced. Marines are slightly too powerful pre 2nd hive. Aliens are too powerful post 2nd hive. I wont touch on random spawns because thats a whole different thread..
<!--quoteo(post=1906525:date=Feb 24 2012, 04:02 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 24 2012, 04:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->er. Throughout this thread i've been saying the CC goes down in under 10 seconds. This timing has been taking into account nanoshield the whole time(even though its almost impossible to shield the CC atm due to a bug).
It is far from balanced. Marines are slightly too powerful pre 2nd hive. Aliens are too powerful post 2nd hive. I wont touch on random spawns because thats a whole different thread..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I do see what you're getting at, however I believe spawn queues are the PRIMARY cause and not the CC's HP. (I do agree that, perhaps, the CC's HP may need to be slightly tweaked and not just outright given a huge boost -- read on)
I'll just give you a high-level conceptual view of why I think this is the case.
In small games, aliens have a slim chance of clogging their spawn queue, and if they're decent skulks, there are less marines to dispatch thus more quickly leaving the CC vulnerable.
In larger games, aliens are more likely to clog their spawn queue with rushes since marines are much more powerful in numbers, arguably more powerful than aliens, and less eggs are available despite the player count (I believe this is right, corrections welcome!).
In a nutshell, and in my experience, fewer players = fast alien win via CC rush. I have honestly rarely (or never?) encountered a CC rush that takes less than 10 seconds past the 2nd hive. Most folks seem too wrapped up in racking up fade kills rather than coordinating and winning the game in pubs...
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1905699:date=Feb 21 2012, 07:01 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Feb 21 2012, 07:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A radial solution would be for an Arms Lab to require a second CS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes. bring the importance of tech points back to marines as well!!
it solves so many problems .. i sound like a broken record on the forums about this, glad to see someone else say it.
Comments
If that's the problem, then isn't the answer for the marine comm to be especially vigilant with knowing where the aliens are? Scan and be ready to beacon when you see an alien rush coming to the base (ie: not once they've already started attacking)
The problem as I see it is that marines often lose by surprise loss of their CS. There are a few contributing factors
- Cloak being OP / Observatory passive radius not disrupting cloak (bug? it shows a radius & was like that in NS1).
- Voiceover warnings ("The command station is under attack") can trigger too late, or too easily, and does not perpetuate or escalate.
- Bile bomb being generally OP
- It's very easy to get some early damage on the CS, before RF/MACs are ready.
If the first three points are addressed by design changes then the last point simply affects strategy. At that point, I honestly think that the solution is largely that marines should build a second CS. One negative consequence for marines is that you just create a second target for the aliens - they can just attack the least defended CS. So you also need a second Obs there for beacon. Now you have extra scanning and shield power which really should not be underestimated. Phase gates are the next best thing while turrets are a minor deterrent/damage soak.
<b>Where balance gets screwed up is that the marines aren't always forced to make that investment.</b>
Not building a second CS and Obs saves 30 res which you can dump in to weapons or tech. Not building a RF/MAC saves another 25. This is a higher risk/reward deal, so it's not really reasonble to complain when it doesn't work out. That said, I think the risk favours marines, so it's really up to the skulks to stop getting caught up in the deathmatch mentalitiy (especially with marines outspawning aliens) and get out there and do some damage to the marine structures.
A radial solution would be for an Arms Lab to require a second CS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you Khyron for accually giving reasoning with your thoughts, however this is another case this looks good on paper but won't work. I do agree with obs should be able to disrupt cloak and voiceover warnings do need improvements. If I thought that would be enough to fix the issue I would not have suggested a major change like increasing CS health.
It's also true that a 2nd obs is really good and it's not uncommon for a commander to get a 2nd obs, even so they try to do it as sparingly as possible (since it does cost 10 res). This only happens when marines are getting the upper hand and commander has res to spare.
Now could do a good and long writeup on how competitive matches are played but I think it's best if you would watch few matches for yourself and decide afterward if this tactic is possible or not. Preferably listening to one of the teams at the same time. The only timing where you can place down a 2nd command chair is when your team has complete control of the map(in most cases got the 2nd hive down and with all rt's) and all upgrades/weapons needed to be able to fight the alien back. Even then it's still a heavy investment and could give the alien chance to come back into the game depending of the situation. The 2nd command chair can also be easily picked off because you need these 2 phase gates in key position on the map(you never want to have more than 2 phase gates out on the field at the same time, meaning it may not be next to a tech point). Also forcing marines to defend a 2nd command chair slows their push down allot and give little to no reward. I hope I could make this clear enough, if not, please tell me why.
,,A radial solution would be for an Arms Lab to require a second CS." - This comment didn't make any sense.
For once, I would like to hear 1 good reason why the command chair hp should be this low. The only difference increasing the CC's hp would make is that it will take aliens few more sec to end the game when they have already killed the marine base. Can someone give me a good reason why it should not be increased?
Most of the competitive matches I've seen push the risk/reward envelope to the max. They are the fastest games with heavy emphasis on group rushing. A lot of those teams would say if you need to build a RoboFac, you've already lost. Rarely do the marines reach tech level 2. I have no problem with that style of gameplay, it's exciting. Obviously pub games are different.
Clan matches will always push the game mechanics to the bare bones, whatever the mechanics are. You could choose to design a game based on what happens in clan games. I'm pretty sure we woudn't see stuff as cool or as fun as jetpacks or flamethrowers though. So at some point I think you have to design for pub games and let clan games play within those mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=1905713:date=Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you never want to have more than 2 phase gates out on the field at the same time, meaning it may not be next to a tech point<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are a few different ways to take advantage of phase gates. I'd agree that you get diminishing returns from phase gates. 3 is still quite viable. Again, pub vs clan results will differ.
<!--quoteo(post=1905713:date=Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->,,A radial solution would be for an Arms Lab to require a second CS." - This comment didn't make any sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^radical solution. If that still doesn't make sense read on: If the cost of a second CC (plus defending it) doesn't match up to the perception of its worth, then you can increase the perception of it's worth without changing its cost. Want an arms lab? Secure a second tech point (with a byproduct of CS redundancy). Can't secure a second tech point? No upgrades and a faster marine loss. Since making that comment I've read that this is kinda how it used to be... apparently there was some mechanism which restricted tech levels to the number of tech points marines hold.
<!--quoteo(post=1905713:date=Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Feb 22 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For once, I would like to hear 1 good reason why the command chair hp should be this low. The only difference increasing the CC's hp would make is that it will take aliens few more sec to end the game when they have already killed the marine base. Can someone give me a good reason why it should not be increased?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm all for small changes to refine NS. I just can't imagine a small change (+/- 10%, say) will fix this. Can you be specific about how much more HP it should have? On paper I think 3 Onos can kill a CS in 5 seconds, 4 Gorges can bile bomb it 7 seconds. What kind of increase are you going to need for a 9v9 game?
Another way of looking at this is that it's kind of circular to say a second CS is "not worth it" and then complain about losing because you don't have a second CS. In fact, for 20 res you basically make impossible one of the alien's paths to victory.
Also, increasing the HP will lead to more risk taking and less demand for a second CS. I'm not sure if you're advocating that Marines should have a riskless path to victory with only one CS. I wouldn't agree to that.
Lastly, I'm also concerned that going down that path will lead to more stalemates on pub games. Remember that pub games are the lifeblood of the community and surely the biggest source of revenue for UWE.
the aliens have the mobility to basically show a 'threat' of killing your cc in 10 seconds. they won't even need to do it
every time you want to push a hive, they just need to rush your base and force a beacon/pg, anything.. then they run off again and wait for the 2nd hive to finish building.
btw, i was in some of the games where elodea was comm and we rushed his CC.. it was funny :p
Alien rushes destroy any fun this game is. Many matches I join / round starts and skulks start rushing base and we can't do anything but defend and die.
Skulks are SO powerful. LMG's are nearly useless on them if they come in pairs. I saw a skulk kill 3 Marines, all shooting at it, and I saw blood splatter, as it just did 360 and random jerky movements and killed all of them.
So the real problems are the following:<ul><li>the OBS don't passive decloak near aliens</li><li>there are no welders jet</li><li>the hit registration seems bugy</li></ul>
When this points are fixed and your team can't handle the first rushes, they deserve to lose. You need how many shots with an LMG to kill a skulk? And the whole team can't stop a few incoming skulks before they can chew down the CC? Sorry, but what you are all debating on, results on the 3 mentioned points. If they are fixed we can talk about changing HP of the CC to counter 1-rush-CC-down-tactics.
I'm really not sure.. Putting aside how gimmicky it feels to me to still expect multiple CC's so much despite having removed multiple commanders, lets assume you get 2nd CC + one IP (30 res, not 20) instead of upgrades. Ok, the aliens rushed your main base and killed your CC while you killed 2nd hive. They also killed the obs in your main base so you can't beacon back there and now proceed to lose every single structure in there. You are now back to one IP with no other structures and one less RT, aliens one techpoint away, and your marines totally out of position in their dead 2nd hive. If you continue to their 1st hive, aliens will simply snipe your CC again.
Like grissi has pointed out. This seems good on paper but in actuality it means you've lost. If aliens don't snipe your CC again, you've lost so many buildings and spent 30 res on redundancy so early that you dont have the res to continue to do anything. Maybe this is part of the problem, but there is a bug where you can't nanoshield the CC sometimes as it chooses to nanoshield the techpoint or something instead.
<!--quoteo(post=1905703:date=Feb 22 2012, 02:19 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Feb 22 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If that's the problem, then isn't the answer for the marine comm to be especially vigilant with knowing where the aliens are? Scan and be ready to beacon when you see an alien rush coming to the base (ie: not once they've already started attacking)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1905799:date=Feb 22 2012, 08:59 PM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Feb 22 2012, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the aliens have the mobility to basically show a 'threat' of killing your cc in 10 seconds. they won't even need to do it
every time you want to push a hive, they just need to rush your base and force a beacon/pg, anything.. then they run off again and wait for the 2nd hive to finish building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looks like ogz beat me to it -> If you prescan, the aliens will see they've been spotted so they continue their push untill they hear the more pre-emptive beacon and simply run away, resulting in a forced beacon. Your back in the same position with 70 less obs energy and the hive being slightly more completed.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Measles)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The REAL problem with marine base defences is the crappy symmetrical lay-put 99% of players use when as Commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, well none of that really matters if their ravaging your CC does it. Not to say i dont agree with you though.
had 3 sentries surrounding the CC, early beacon and grenaders/flamers
CC ended on 3%
Hive has 5000 HP and 500 AP<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I test it, as marine it takes 47 seconds to kill a hive with a axe without any upgrades
as skulk it takes 31 seconds to kill the cc.
Thats a diffrence of just 16 seconds and the marines only use the axe without GL, without shotgun, without rifle, pistol or any upgrade.
The funny thing with shotgun it takes (with reloading!!!!) about 50 seconds.
with Gl 40 second.
all this only with one marine and no upgrades.
Edit:
with upgrades it takes ... to kill a hive:
axe = 36 seconds with weapon #3 upgrade
GL = 33 seconds with weapon #3 upgrade
Shotgun = not tested
rifle melee = ages...don't fully testet, after 20 seconds, the hive had 84 or 89% left.
Actually, axe does the most dps to hive :). I think even more than shotgun taking into account reload.
axe did a lot of damage you see now after i edit ^^
maybe thats why i always use axe in the game instead of the other weapons to kill a hive, in my mind i knew it haha
So the real problems are the following:<ul><li>the OBS don't passive decloak near aliens</li><li>there are no welders jet</li><li>the hit registration seems bugy</li></ul>
When this points are fixed and your team can't handle the first rushes, they deserve to lose. You need how many shots with an LMG to kill a skulk? And the whole team can't stop a few incoming skulks before they can chew down the CC? Sorry, but what you are all debating on, results on the 3 mentioned points. If they are fixed we can talk about changing HP of the CC to counter 1-rush-CC-down-tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about situations where aliens use vents to just bypass marines and go for the CC?
It is possible on every single map.
Just 3 skulks, or 2 gorges bilebombing on the CC, and you won't be able to save it with a beacon.
You aren't able to walk back from your first extractor points in time to save it.
The CC definitly needs a HP increase, and I'd say using the NS1 value is not entirely stupid, I'd say it would solve these issues.
And the same to the hives obviously.
yeah but the com don't use it much, thats the problem.
but i also forget it, good point.
Also, if you still think "But it can still be rushed!". Well, yeah. That's part of the game. If your team can't stop a rush, you've just lost the game to a better team. Marine wins are now up to 40%. I'd say a good 10% of alien wins (atleast) are succesful early game skulk rushes on the CC where marines prematurely leave the base, leave and don't return, or just get their asses whipped.
Anyway, the game is fairly balanced compared to previous builds. The welder, I think, will literally CHANGE THE GAME. Once it's in, threads like these may never pop up again.
er. Throughout this thread i've been saying the CC goes down in under 10 seconds. This timing has been taking into account nanoshield the whole time(even though its almost impossible to shield the CC atm due to a bug).
<!--quoteo(post=1906507:date=Feb 24 2012, 05:48 PM:name=Krizzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krizzen @ Feb 24 2012, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Geez, you guys that say CC is too weak are on crack. Welders! WELDERS!
[...]
Anyway, the game is fairly balanced compared to previous builds. The welder, I think, will literally CHANGE THE GAME. Once it's in, threads like these may never pop up again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The CC dies too quickly from an alien snipe. I'm not talking about being able to repair damage inbetween attacks on the CC. I am talking about an all in once and for all dead CC in less than 10 seconds. Welding has nothing to do with the problem unless your suggesting marines stand there weld tanking the CC and acting as meat shields..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is far from balanced. Marines are slightly too powerful pre 2nd hive. Aliens are too powerful post 2nd hive. I wont touch on random spawns because thats a whole different thread..
It is far from balanced. Marines are slightly too powerful pre 2nd hive. Aliens are too powerful post 2nd hive. I wont touch on random spawns because thats a whole different thread..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I do see what you're getting at, however I believe spawn queues are the PRIMARY cause and not the CC's HP. (I do agree that, perhaps, the CC's HP may need to be slightly tweaked and not just outright given a huge boost -- read on)
I'll just give you a high-level conceptual view of why I think this is the case.
In small games, aliens have a slim chance of clogging their spawn queue, and if they're decent skulks, there are less marines to dispatch thus more quickly leaving the CC vulnerable.
In larger games, aliens are more likely to clog their spawn queue with rushes since marines are much more powerful in numbers, arguably more powerful than aliens, and less eggs are available despite the player count (I believe this is right, corrections welcome!).
In a nutshell, and in my experience, fewer players = fast alien win via CC rush. I have honestly rarely (or never?) encountered a CC rush that takes less than 10 seconds past the 2nd hive. Most folks seem too wrapped up in racking up fade kills rather than coordinating and winning the game in pubs...
yes. bring the importance of tech points back to marines as well!!
it solves so many problems .. i sound like a broken record on the forums about this, glad to see someone else say it.