swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1904687:date=Feb 19 2012, 03:58 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Feb 19 2012, 03:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->99% of NS2 games that are ever going to played will be random pub games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is true, but as Grissi says, the problems in competetive play are also evident on publics. One thing he says that I don't agree with is the amount of time the problems take to be evident on publics. I think it's about the same time, but the casual players don't give it much thought, and probably just think that's how it's supposed to be. For example, random spawns with vents in MS, on publics people don't go directly for extractors in the beginning of the game, cause they know the aliens can just bypass them via the vent to the base. And they don't see it as a problem that marines are not able to move out and secure map control. That results in players either spamming turrets or having some stay in the base the entire game. Competetive players notice the problems and get annoyed at them very quickly. Why not use competetive players for balance, so everyone can have a better, more balanced and fun game? :)
Isn't the main problem that the second hive is so critical right now, it's like "kill the second hive before it's up or loose" ? Didn't ns1 had a similar problem ?
My suggestion would be to unlink fade and onos from hives, fix the fade, and proceed from there.
<!--quoteo(post=1904780:date=Feb 19 2012, 01:27 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 19 2012, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't the main problem that the second hive is so critical right now, it's like "kill the second hive before it's up or loose" ? Didn't ns1 had a similar problem ?
My suggestion would be to unlink fade and onos from hives, fix the fade, and proceed from there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I think this is what will make the game so hard to balance. Untie lifeforms and balance them correctly. The lifeforms should get stronger for each hive instead. More skills, armor and damage to scale with the marines techpath.
We have both Competitive and Public players doing internal Playtesting and giving valuable feedback to the Devs for NS2. We literally have tens of thousands of hours worth of experience from both sides. You cant just balance for Public, and you cant just balance for Competitive, it's got to be a collaboration.
Just played a couples of games and they mainly consisted of shade rushes, the cloak should really be removed in the next patch. We also had a couple of close spawn position short games and a few long ones.
<!--quoteo(post=1904780:date=Feb 19 2012, 07:27 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 19 2012, 07:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't the main problem that the second hive is so critical right now, it's like "kill the second hive before it's up or loose" ? Didn't ns1 had a similar problem ?
My suggestion would be to unlink fade and onos from hives, fix the fade, and proceed from there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. It's the same problem repeating itself which I find odd. Maybe there's some deeper thinking going on behind it but it certainly feels like second hives are where games are won or lost at the moment. If they go up, spam fades. If they don't, 50+ res in the bank becomes whoring for the sake of whoring.
<!--quoteo(post=1904800:date=Feb 19 2012, 03:28 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Feb 19 2012, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree. It's the same problem repeating itself which I find odd. Maybe there's some deeper thinking going on behind it but it certainly feels like second hives are where games are won or lost at the moment. If they go up, spam fades. If they don't, 50+ res in the bank becomes whoring for the sake of whoring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats just wrong, have you played 197? With jetpacks my team and me killed one hive after another...it was easy, even with fades. And mineshaft has a lot of technodes for alien hives and marine expand. Also i don't think there could be a "fade spam" like you wrote. Fades die so quick...
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1904796:date=Feb 19 2012, 02:07 PM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Feb 19 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have both Competitive and Public players doing internal Playtesting and giving valuable feedback to the Devs for NS2. We literally have tens of thousands of hours worth of experience from both sides. You cant just balance for Public, and you cant just balance for Competitive, it's got to be a collaboration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Im not going to dispute the value of whoever you have giving the dev's feedback, but past quotes that playtesters only report/test bugs leaves it hard to believe they give any useful feedback at all. Either way, having playtesters that play competitively is not enough, the dev's would get far more from watching/taking part in competitive matches.
As we move closer and closer to release, this will become even more important. There have been (and are) glaring issues that go into the public releases that would be picked up instantly in any form of competitive match (both bugs and imbalances). Even if the dev's do not want to run an official competitive playtester group, perhaps they could request gathers (when it suits them to watch/take part) to view how things are working in the public build, the standard of play in gathers is frequently very high.
I am not arguing that competitive players know best. Our knowledge is frequently specialised (in whatever we are best at/most interested in) and our ability to coherently express our views is not always upto standard. Still, the experience/information that UWE could get from watching games where the players are mostly quite skilled and are trying hard to win is incredibly valuable. As opposed to public games where a certain quantity of the players are doing god knows what!
I guess the take home message is: There are a lot of us in the competitive community that want to help UWE with game balance. If there is ever anything we can do, let us know!
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1904795:date=Feb 19 2012, 03:01 PM:name=Skuggan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skuggan @ Feb 19 2012, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1904780:date=Feb 19 2012, 01:27 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 19 2012, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Isn't the main problem that the second hive is so critical right now, it's like "kill the second hive before it's up or loose" ? Didn't ns1 had a similar problem ?
My suggestion would be to unlink fade and onos from hives, fix the fade, and proceed from there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1
I think this is what will make the game so hard to balance. Untie lifeforms and balance them correctly. The lifeforms should get stronger for each hive instead. More skills, armor and damage to scale with the marines techpath. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's how it worked in NS1 3.2. That system have been proved to work. I think untieing lifeforms from hives will definitly decrease their importancy for aliens, however, marines still have to kill it if they want to win. But I think that is just fine, and not really a problem per se, I've seen ns1 games with 2 hives up and aliens losing because marines outplay them. Killing the 2nd hive removes alot of advantages for aliens, but in NS2 it removes too many of their advantages, ie. access to lifeforms. I agree that lifeforms should get stronger with more hives, in NS1 they got more armor(though it was invisible and unintuitive), all aliens unlocked a new ability. I think it should be similar in NS2, to make the aliens scale with lategame. However, the armor boost should be visible(intuitive), so when a hive goes up you would see your armor values change, and not just the values "behind" it. Alien damage in NS1 scaled in lategame due to Focus(double damage, half rate of fire). That was a way for skulks to chase down the jetpackers, and for the fades to keep up with them and their heavy equipments. <!--quoteo(post=1904804:date=Feb 19 2012, 03:55 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Feb 19 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess the take home message is: There are a lot of us in the competitive community that want to help UWE with game balance. If there is ever anything we can do, let us know!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really good post Arga, I'm sure the ENSL gathers could end up being really useful as a state-of-the-gamebalance for the devs. And as you say, we would be honoured to help with the balance of the game. Another plus would be that it would take some of the pressure off the devs, as they still have lots of other things to worry about than balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1904796:date=Feb 19 2012, 10:07 AM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Feb 19 2012, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cant just balance for Public, and you cant just balance for Competitive, it's got to be a collaboration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? What do competitive players ask for/advise that simply cannot be done for public/casual players?
As an example of a game designed from the ground up for competition, look at Quake 3. Now skip back about 10 years in your mind - how many people played Quake 3 casually in its heyday? Did any of them complain that the game was geared toward competition? No - they just played it and had fun.
ATM I just keep seeing Marine wins built soley on the back of bum rushing the hive over and over and over with shotties from the get-go...no thought, no strategy. Its pretty difficult for aliens to do anything about it as they just get out spawned and can barely afford to try and get RTs up elsewhere on the map. OFC the relative spawn points have a massive impact on this as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1904926:date=Feb 19 2012, 09:00 PM:name=Ph0enix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ph0enix @ Feb 19 2012, 09:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ATM I just keep seeing Marine wins built soley on the back of bum rushing the hive over and over and over with shotties from the get-go...no thought, no strategy. Its pretty difficult for aliens to do anything about it as they just get out spawned and can barely afford to try and get RTs up elsewhere on the map. OFC the relative spawn points have a massive impact on this as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that we see this should point to something about spawns being fundamentally broken. Like the fact that the shotgun 1-shots eggs and you can have it before the aliens can have lerks (the most effective anti-shotgun weapon before fades).
<!--quoteo(post=1904967:date=Feb 19 2012, 09:01 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 19 2012, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that we see this should point to something about spawns being fundamentally broken. Like the fact that the shotgun 1-shots eggs and you can have it before the aliens can have lerks (the most effective anti-shotgun weapon before fades).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines can do this even without shotguns, they are not the problem. Shotguns are also more of a anti fade weapon, not the other way around. The weakness of the shotgun is its range, you need to coordinate with your team vs marines that have used res to be more powerful to kill them. It's similar to lerk, after you invest 30 res into a lerk you can take most marines down in 1v1, even shotguns if you stay out their range or with smart flight. I do not advice that though since shotguns can 1 hit you.
The thought of lowering marine spawn would fix the skulk rush issue + random spawn issue was flawed from the beginning, it's true it might have help to prevent that but this solution simply created new problems with it. They should fix the root of the problem, quick fixes like lowering spawn time usually don't work. Also it's always important to look at the bigger picture when you make such a change, I made it pretty clear in my earlier post how much marines were buffed in that patch.
Edit: Sorry, read your post wrong. I don't think the problem lies within the spawn system, it has more to do with the distance between bases. Aliens should be punished for dieing to much or allow marine into their base, they have the mobility and vision to prevent it. Shotgun rush in ns1 was just as deadly and often forced even competitive player to drop defensive structures to prevent the rush. However if the marines did not manage to brake through they usually lost the game because of their huge investment. Now in ns1 the commander had to drop the weapons for shotgun rush to happen, in ns2 players buy them from the armory making such a rush more popular. The alien team must work together to prevent it, it's allot of res invested into weapons and a strong push. If they decide not to push at all and still get the weapons it will probably end up as waste of res since the marines with shotguns will be picked off 1 by 1 over the map.
Comments
That is true, but as Grissi says, the problems in competetive play are also evident on publics.
One thing he says that I don't agree with is the amount of time the problems take to be evident on publics.
I think it's about the same time, but the casual players don't give it much thought, and probably just think that's how it's supposed to be.
For example, random spawns with vents in MS, on publics people don't go directly for extractors in the beginning of the game, cause they know the aliens can just bypass them via the vent to the base. And they don't see it as a problem that marines are not able to move out and secure map control. That results in players either spamming turrets or having some stay in the base the entire game.
Competetive players notice the problems and get annoyed at them very quickly.
Why not use competetive players for balance, so everyone can have a better, more balanced and fun game? :)
My suggestion would be to unlink fade and onos from hives, fix the fade, and proceed from there.
My suggestion would be to unlink fade and onos from hives, fix the fade, and proceed from there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I think this is what will make the game so hard to balance. Untie lifeforms and balance them correctly.
The lifeforms should get stronger for each hive instead. More skills, armor and damage to scale with the marines techpath.
My suggestion would be to unlink fade and onos from hives, fix the fade, and proceed from there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. It's the same problem repeating itself which I find odd. Maybe there's some deeper thinking going on behind it but it certainly feels like second hives are where games are won or lost at the moment. If they go up, spam fades. If they don't, 50+ res in the bank becomes whoring for the sake of whoring.
Thats just wrong, have you played 197?
With jetpacks my team and me killed one hive after another...it was easy, even with fades.
And mineshaft has a lot of technodes for alien hives and marine expand.
Also i don't think there could be a "fade spam" like you wrote.
Fades die so quick...
Im not going to dispute the value of whoever you have giving the dev's feedback, but past quotes that playtesters only report/test bugs leaves it hard to believe they give any useful feedback at all. Either way, having playtesters that play competitively is not enough, the dev's would get far more from watching/taking part in competitive matches.
As we move closer and closer to release, this will become even more important. There have been (and are) glaring issues that go into the public releases that would be picked up instantly in any form of competitive match (both bugs and imbalances). Even if the dev's do not want to run an official competitive playtester group, perhaps they could request gathers (when it suits them to watch/take part) to view how things are working in the public build, the standard of play in gathers is frequently very high.
I am not arguing that competitive players know best. Our knowledge is frequently specialised (in whatever we are best at/most interested in) and our ability to coherently express our views is not always upto standard. Still, the experience/information that UWE could get from watching games where the players are mostly quite skilled and are trying hard to win is incredibly valuable. As opposed to public games where a certain quantity of the players are doing god knows what!
I guess the take home message is: There are a lot of us in the competitive community that want to help UWE with game balance. If there is ever anything we can do, let us know!
Isn't the main problem that the second hive is so critical right now, it's like "kill the second hive before it's up or loose" ? Didn't ns1 had a similar problem ?
My suggestion would be to unlink fade and onos from hives, fix the fade, and proceed from there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I think this is what will make the game so hard to balance. Untie lifeforms and balance them correctly.
The lifeforms should get stronger for each hive instead. More skills, armor and damage to scale with the marines techpath.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's how it worked in NS1 3.2.
That system have been proved to work.
I think untieing lifeforms from hives will definitly decrease their importancy for aliens, however, marines still have to kill it if they want to win.
But I think that is just fine, and not really a problem per se, I've seen ns1 games with 2 hives up and aliens losing because marines outplay them.
Killing the 2nd hive removes alot of advantages for aliens, but in NS2 it removes too many of their advantages, ie. access to lifeforms.
I agree that lifeforms should get stronger with more hives, in NS1 they got more armor(though it was invisible and unintuitive), all aliens unlocked a new ability.
I think it should be similar in NS2, to make the aliens scale with lategame.
However, the armor boost should be visible(intuitive), so when a hive goes up you would see your armor values change, and not just the values "behind" it.
Alien damage in NS1 scaled in lategame due to Focus(double damage, half rate of fire). That was a way for skulks to chase down the jetpackers, and for the fades to keep up with them and their heavy equipments.
<!--quoteo(post=1904804:date=Feb 19 2012, 03:55 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Feb 19 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess the take home message is: There are a lot of us in the competitive community that want to help UWE with game balance. If there is ever anything we can do, let us know!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really good post Arga, I'm sure the ENSL gathers could end up being really useful as a state-of-the-gamebalance for the devs.
And as you say, we would be honoured to help with the balance of the game.
Another plus would be that it would take some of the pressure off the devs, as they still have lots of other things to worry about than balance.
Why?
What do competitive players ask for/advise that simply cannot be done for public/casual players?
As an example of a game designed from the ground up for competition, look at Quake 3. Now skip back about 10 years in your mind - how many people played Quake 3 casually in its heyday? Did any of them complain that the game was geared toward competition? No - they just played it and had fun.
The fact that we see this should point to something about spawns being fundamentally broken. Like the fact that the shotgun 1-shots eggs and you can have it before the aliens can have lerks (the most effective anti-shotgun weapon before fades).
Marines can do this even without shotguns, they are not the problem. Shotguns are also more of a anti fade weapon, not the other way around. The weakness of the shotgun is its range, you need to coordinate with your team vs marines that have used res to be more powerful to kill them. It's similar to lerk, after you invest 30 res into a lerk you can take most marines down in 1v1, even shotguns if you stay out their range or with smart flight. I do not advice that though since shotguns can 1 hit you.
The thought of lowering marine spawn would fix the skulk rush issue + random spawn issue was flawed from the beginning, it's true it might have help to prevent that but this solution simply created new problems with it. They should fix the root of the problem, quick fixes like lowering spawn time usually don't work. Also it's always important to look at the bigger picture when you make such a change, I made it pretty clear in my earlier post how much marines were buffed in that patch.
Edit:
Sorry, read your post wrong. I don't think the problem lies within the spawn system, it has more to do with the distance between bases. Aliens should be punished for dieing to much or allow marine into their base, they have the mobility and vision to prevent it. Shotgun rush in ns1 was just as deadly and often forced even competitive player to drop defensive structures to prevent the rush. However if the marines did not manage to brake through they usually lost the game because of their huge investment. Now in ns1 the commander had to drop the weapons for shotgun rush to happen, in ns2 players buy them from the armory making such a rush more popular. The alien team must work together to prevent it, it's allot of res invested into weapons and a strong push.
If they decide not to push at all and still get the weapons it will probably end up as waste of res since the marines with shotguns will be picked off 1 by 1 over the map.