So what happened, with this patch, balance wise?
Mkilbride
Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69952Members
Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69952Members
I just played 4 games...
In 8 minutes.
Somehow, within 30 seconds, we had Shotguns. We rushed their Hive and killed them. Next round, they rushed us with Skulks and fades in under two minutes. This happened two more times, before I just left.
Now, I have about 22-23 hours playing the NS2 Beta, and I've never seen this, I've been playing since the 14x or 15x builds, and I've never seen rushes quite so effective. Kinda takes all the fun out of the game.
In 8 minutes.
Somehow, within 30 seconds, we had Shotguns. We rushed their Hive and killed them. Next round, they rushed us with Skulks and fades in under two minutes. This happened two more times, before I just left.
Now, I have about 22-23 hours playing the NS2 Beta, and I've never seen this, I've been playing since the 14x or 15x builds, and I've never seen rushes quite so effective. Kinda takes all the fun out of the game.
Comments
In 8 minutes.
Somehow, within 30 seconds, we had Shotguns. We rushed their Hive and killed them. Next round, they rushed us with Skulks and fades in under two minutes. This happened two more times, before I just left.
Now, I have about 22-23 hours playing the NS2 Beta, and I've never seen this, I've been playing since the 14x or 15x builds, and I've never seen rushes quite so effective. Kinda takes all the fun out of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
eggs instead of just spawning, so it's easier to spawn camp
IP locked close to comm chair, meaning comm has a harder time shooting off lone skulks
poor performance server/client, meaning lower playercounts (6v6) and less traffic on maps (skulks/marines can sneak by early on)
!?!? performance went DOWN with this patch?? i was just playing an 18 player server last night with 30 ticks for hours??
!?!? performance went DOWN with this patch?? i was just playing an 18 player server last night with 30 ticks for hours??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i didn't mean with the patch, i meant overall
That said, getting an IP for free and immediately getting shotguns is super imbalanced.
The worst part is they can dig the hole deeper by making shotgun harder to get in response (instead of reverting the bad free IP mechanic).
The fact that the whole marines team can be holding shotguns before the aliens can evolve lerks is bad enough. That they can do it while getting their close res towers is obscene. I feel like people aren't looking at things like this enough when they playtest. Yesterday, we did a full-team lerk rush exactly like in that one youtube video, and it worked exactly like it used to (even after all the retooling of the lerk).
Eventually we're going to be really close to the planned release date, and I hope people start playing the game instead of debating the mechanics and design choices before then.
but this thread is "so what happened with this patch?"...
...and this guy has been playing for a while so it wouldn't be news, what you said regarding performance?
...and who plays 6 vs 6? the servers i see that are full are 16 and 18 player servers mostly, all of which steady as a drum @ 30 ticks.
...and eggs have been in play since the very first alpha?...
i promise i'm not trying to flame, i'm just confused why you posted, i suppose. it seemed like it would be<b> so irrelevant,</b> to the OP, but okay.
*scratches head*
What made marine rushing easier now is instant shotguns and spawn rate changes. Marines now spawn in 7 seconds (per IP) and aliens still have a <u>minimum</u> spawn time of 10 seconds per egg per hive. They actually made the egg spawning even a bit slower this patch (for second, third, ... egg).
Quick calculation says that marines can now spawn 2.86 times as fast as aliens if they have 2 IPs vs 1 hive. Scaling with player numbers is also way too weak, so it gets worse the more aliens you have, while you can theoretically have one IP per marine. You can just grind down the aliens, even if you die more than you kill.
First egg is always 10 seconds, second egg is 18s with 6 aliens or 14s with 12 aliens (if I didn't miscalculate).
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56kd2Fj2kD8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56kd2Fj2kD8</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56kd2Fj2kD8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56kd2Fj2kD8</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know that and I just can't imagine how these simulations can result in such a change. I think the problem is fairly obvious from the raw numbers of spawn times. I would really like to believe those simulator results, but it's just not what I'm seeing in the game and the raw numbers.
Of course, aliens can hold back and wait for egg spawns, but then they instantly lose map control and make marines win in the long run instead of by getting rushed and spawn camped.
That said, getting an IP for free and immediately getting shotguns is super imbalanced.
The worst part is they can dig the hole deeper by making shotgun harder to get in response (instead of reverting the bad free IP mechanic).
The fact that the whole marines team can be holding shotguns before the aliens can evolve lerks is bad enough. That they can do it while getting their close res towers is obscene. I feel like people aren't looking at things like this enough when they playtest. Yesterday, we did a full-team lerk rush exactly like in that one youtube video, and it worked exactly like it used to (even after all the retooling of the lerk).
Eventually we're going to be really close to the planned release date, and I hope people start playing the game instead of debating the mechanics and design choices before then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 and the whole post
1
<!--quoteo(post=1904045:date=Feb 17 2012, 04:12 AM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Feb 17 2012, 04:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just played 4 games...
In 8 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
come back when you play some more games,
2
<!--quoteo(post=1904045:date=Feb 17 2012, 04:12 AM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Feb 17 2012, 04:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, I have about 22-23 hours playing the NS2 Beta, and I've never seen this, I've been playing since the 14x or 15x builds, and I've never seen rushes quite so effective. Kinda takes all the fun out of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
youve barely played this game at all
3
<!--quoteo(post=1904045:date=Feb 17 2012, 04:12 AM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Feb 17 2012, 04:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Somehow, within 30 seconds, we had Shotguns. We rushed their Hive and killed them. Next round, they rushed us with Skulks and fades in under two minutes. This happened two more times, before I just left.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
seems obvious the good players were stacking :P it happens
i do think shotgun upgrade should cost more
An easy fix.
I think the lowering of marine spawn and increasing alien spawn was a bit much. But ill see tonight when i get to play.
Sorry to say, but in a game like this, 23 is plenty. If this was a MMORPG, I could agree, 20-23 hours isn't much. However, in a FPS, 22-23 hours, you'll have seen mostly everything the game has to offer by that point.
This was a 8 vs 8 match as well. It wasn't 4 vs 4 or anything.
Most matches I've played in, last 15 minutes at the least, with the average being 45-50 minutes. So like I said, when I played 4 rounds in 8 minutes, I was abit "What?"
Then they ran some number crunching simulations that have nothing to do with situations where one team rolls over and dies, and here's our update!
Then they ran some number crunching simulations that have nothing to do with situations where one team rolls over and dies, and here's our update!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
I know the starting IP decision is only 10 res and probably doesn't warrant the ammount of critique i give it, but what is concerning me is that they seem to be solely using a simulator based on limited assumptions to make design decisions instead of well, actually playing the game, observing the metagame and taking into account the wider factors.
I could be wrong, but this is how it seems to be. I would love to know what key assumptions are going into their nifty simulator though.
I know the starting IP decision is only 10 res and probably doesn't warrant the ammount of critique i give it, but what is concerning me is that they seem to be solely using a simulator based on limited assumptions to make design decisions instead of well, actually playing the game, observing the metagame and taking into account the wider factors.
I could be wrong, but this is how it seems to be. I would love to know what key assumptions are going into their nifty simulator though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They needed to take away the 10 res that the IP costs to balance it to any extent, it IS a lot that early in the game. I was always keen on the idea of marines starting with a single IP because it makes skulk rushes <i>less</i> viable, and allows the marines more of an immediate presence on the map/doesn't force the commander out of his role to set up some of the starting buildings.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56kd2Fj2kD8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56kd2Fj2kD8</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The tests were run with marines having only one IP. So it has nothing to do with real gameplay.
exactly... mentioned this in the other thread before the patch went in.. so basically marines can turn the tide by building their 2nd IP lol
nvm the shotty upgrade
the only thing that combats marine effectiveness right now is the powernode bug lol
overpowered vs bugs . . who will win
I hope it's just the drawing and that the number of IPs is taken into account in the spawn rate.
Anyway in science models are well-known to fail, that's what they do best. Specially when human behavior is involved. It's still fun to play with them and they can even be useful sometimes.
That said, getting an IP for free and immediately getting shotguns is super imbalanced.
The worst part is they can dig the hole deeper by making shotgun harder to get in response (instead of reverting the bad free IP mechanic).
The fact that the whole marines team can be holding shotguns before the aliens can evolve lerks is bad enough. That they can do it while getting their close res towers is obscene. I feel like people aren't looking at things like this enough when they playtest. Yesterday, we did a full-team lerk rush exactly like in that one youtube video, and it worked exactly like it used to (even after all the retooling of the lerk).
Eventually we're going to be really close to the planned release date, and I hope people start playing the game instead of debating the mechanics and design choices before then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed that Shotguns are just too effective for pushing/rushing. They would more balanced if they are tweaked to play a more defensive role. (eg faster rate-of-fire, lower damage per shot, so Shotguns don't always instanta kill Skulks, even when charge into each other).
-Marines can stay longer on 1 IP, giving them more early res
-Marines have higher chance of winning by rushing the alien hive endlessly, a single marine is more likely of getting alot of skulks than single skulk getting alot of marines down.
-Marines will recover more quickly when they rush an alien RT, even though they don't manage to take it down.
-Marines have more time to recover their weapons after they die.
-Marines phase gate pushes just got much stronger, less chance they need to beacon.
-Giving marines an extra IP in the beginning allows the base marine to join the battle sooner.
I could go on but I don't think this was the right way to buff marines. The main issuses are still here. This does not mean it was a bad change, the game will be more enjoyable when the spawn time is shorter and it might make the game much better but I don't think this was the way to fix the problem with skulk rushes. If skulks manage to get into the base it's easy for them to spawncamp the ip's and it's hard for the commander to react to that.
More marine spawn rate won't change the fact when aliens and marines spawn to close to each other the game will be short. Skulk rushes did win game in ns1 time to time but usally it was because the alien team simply overpowered the marine team. Also marines had cheap mines for base defence. It will be less of an issue when all the peformance/hitreg will be fixed.
Marine base is still to weak to CC/power node rushes. They won't just lose materal they will simply lose the game in these rushes.
The power node problem might be fixed with the new power pack mechanic but the CC is just to big of a target (The marines should still lose if they lose all their CC's). The commander can most of the time defend his structures vs a single skulk but since it takes him so long to get out of his chair its harder in ns2. Also since the CC is the target he will most likly die if he tries. Its the same with the power node, its not always in view of the command chair. In cases when it is in view the commander can usally just snipe 1-2 skulks that are rushing the power node without much problem. Also Mines and turrets are to expesive to be used as a base defence til very late into the game.
We played a competitive gather yesterday where a single gorge managed to bilebomb the command chair even though the commander used beacon, that is kinda silly. I dont mind the gorge being able to kill marines structures that quick since marines can rebuild them(and lose alot of res and time) but its kinda silly aliens can end games like that. Its not like the marine team could just have run back instantly to defend the base like aliens can do with their hive. Also its easy for a skulk to sneak somewhere and gorge close the marine base.
The main argument against the CC's hp is that the hive is the same. The diffrence here is that marines have less mobility(takes more time to get to hive/defend base) and aliens lifeform are much much stronger close to their hive (infestation, hive heal, umbra, defences etc) while marines tend to be weaker in marine start because aliens can hide behind their buildings. Even if you place your buildings really well next to walls skulks can stilll easly hide behind the CC or above the CC.
This was bit longer than I wanted and a bit of the topic. Basicly Marines got a very big buff in this patch.
Sorry to say, but in a game like this, 23 is plenty. If this was a MMORPG, I could agree, 20-23 hours isn't much. However, in a FPS, 22-23 hours, you'll have seen mostly everything the game has to offer by that point.
This was a 8 vs 8 match as well. It wasn't 4 vs 4 or anything.
Most matches I've played in, last 15 minutes at the least, with the average being 45-50 minutes. So like I said, when I played 4 rounds in 8 minutes, I was abit "What?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In 24h you can say I saw the basics of it. And for sure not everything.
I have 400 hours on it but still find some new things that I was not aware but are really powerfull f.e. I just found out that when I blink upwards and use stab, the stab will be performed on the landing and you still have control while falling, and it's still a 1hk with a2.
I don't think any of the balances changes are all that relevant. Random Starting locations have ruined (balanced) gameplay since they were added. This causes many matches to be decided very early, whether or not they end quickly or drag on. Occasionally you always get a few matches that in a row that end very quickly. It can be easy for aliens to run out of eggs to a successful marine push, or aliens to kill all marines and camp the IPs.
a) Let's assume that aliens (A) spawn with a rate jA (A per second) and that marines (M) spawn with a spawn rate jM (M per second).
b) Let's assume that when a marine and an alien meet the marine kill the alien and survive with probability p, thus the alien the survive with probability 1-p.
c) Let's assume that each battle is independent so that the probability that a marine kill two aliens is p^2, three p^3, and k p^k.
Then the average numbers of aliens killed by a marine is p / (p-1).
The average numbers of marines killed by an alien is (1-p) / p.
To have balance we need the average number of aliens killed per second to be equal to the average number of marines killed per second (the "fluxes" cancel each other) :
jM p / (p-1) = jA (1-p) / p
SO what does the model tells us ?
1) if the battles are balanced (p=1/2) then the spawn rates have to be equal : jM = jA
2) The spawn rates need to have the same dependence on the number of players N :
jM(N) / jA(N) = constant
3) jM / jA = (1 -p)^2 / p^2
This mean that the balanced spawn rates are sensitive to the battle balance (p different from 1/2).
Please don't tell me that the assumptions are stupid or that I forgot to take this or that effect into account, I know.
It would be easy to make c) a bit more realistic by saying that the probability decrease faster than the independent one (because you have lower health after a fight) for example the probability that a marine kill k aliens is p^2k instead of p^k.
Edit: model fail.