Power point "sockets"
Flayra
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
Comments
Do you really want all the human team's structures to be constantly flashing? Doesn't seem to fit the design aesthetic, unless it is just some power lighting turning on and off.
I'm imagining something similar to the glowing particle FX that travel between creep nodes, Like some kind of glowing circuit pattern.
I am confused as to what the point of this is if marines can build power packs. Are you planning to remove power packs?
<b>- Power points should be placed where they’re vulnerable from fire outside of rooms. They are placed in an opposite way of tech points: they should be somewhat snipable.</b>
Too bad most aliens cannot snipe.
<b>- Power points are redesigned to have a “cage†protecting them. Marines can break off the cage by +using it… Power points are invulnerable to damage until the cage has been removed.</b>
This would be a tactical advantage for the marines if the aliens cannot turn off the lights. I can think of a couple times where I hid in the corner of a dark room as a Gorge while a marine ran by me.
<b>-The alien structures will all give off colored lights. So built up alien rooms will be glowing beautifully, like this.</b>
This would just make aliens structures easier for marines to target, especially if a Gorge is trying to hide a cyst somewhere. (But it does look nice).
Make it so that when the power is taken out the lights only become dimmer. As the alien infestation spreads into a room, the lights become darker and darker. Alien infestation could also damage the power points even before the cage has been removed. This would mean that marines would need to repair the power nodes deep within alien territory.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The powered state of rooms changes back and forth a lot, removing some of the drama and special nature of those moments.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with this point. Atleast when people learn that chewing the power points is not the best way to contribute to the alien play. Maybe decreasing the amount of points you get by destroying a power node could help on this point in the public play.
When more people will learn to chew the last remaining hit points on the power node only when marines are making a big push it adds a lot more dramatic moments to the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Too much time is spent with rooms in powered-off mode, meaning the visual look is often lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like to visual looks even when the power is down. Maybe there could be more variations on the emergency lights though. Maybe larger transitions between, dark, red lights and almost fully lit rooms.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Power points are invulnerable to damage until the cage has been removed. Once removed, they can be damaged normally and work the way they currently do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So ultimately this would only change the early game. In the end game most of the cages would be opened (atleast in public play) and the gameplay would be the same but with more unneccessary complexity.
Overall i think the power grid system is working ok and needs only some fine tuning.
The biggest problem with the power grid is the problem #3 that you have no idea if you will have power or not. This problem gets worse when the number of playable maps increases. This could be easily fixed if all the places where no power grid is defined by the mapper are powered on by default or if the commander has some kind of visual help to indicate the power zones when placing buildings.
The only other thing I'm not a big fan of is the pulsing effect. Why? Can the marines not manage to have a constant power supply in a facility they designed? Doesn't make sense.
I say leave it how it is for now, trying to rehash power is not going to disrupt marine turtle, the Onos should.
With the cage idea, Hives and other rooms that aliens take over would still be lit, is that wanted? I think having the bright sterile lighting for marine controlled rooms is great ATM. I always get a comforting feeling when we get the lights back on in a room.
In short, having things in the environment (Aliens, MACs, marine flash lights) provide most of the lighting for powered down rooms seems MUCH cooler to me :)
I say leave it how it is for now, trying to rehash power is not going to disrupt marine turtle, the Onos should.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems like they are attempting to give power a much bigger role on the marine team.
Just like how aliens depend on infestation, marines will depend on power.
I say leave it how it is for now, trying to rehash power is not going to disrupt marine turtle, the Onos should.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that there are more important things to do. However, if you are going to change the power model, now is better than later. This will allow mappers to modify their maps appropriately instead of having maps that are not designed for the new model.
side note: how will structures respond with shade proximity cloak enabled? will there still be lights covering them while invisible?
It gives those rooms a horror-game aesthetic. A few times I have turned my flashlight on a skulk and jumped in my chair. Those times I died.
<!--quoteo(post=1881725:date=Oct 24 2011, 05:17 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Oct 24 2011, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem #4: The powered state of rooms changes back and forth a lot, removing some of the drama and special nature of those moments.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's still dramatic when the power in Marine Start goes down. Also, your solution won't change this.
<!--quoteo(post=1881725:date=Oct 24 2011, 05:17 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Oct 24 2011, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Initial: The cage is over the power node and the room looks “normalâ€.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The way it is now, there is a strategic choice for the aliens at the start of the game whether to rush Marine Start or to spend time gnawing at power nodes. If you preset all the nodes to off, the skulks will all just rush marine start every time. Rather, some nodes should start on and some should start off. The nodes that currently start totally broken could just start off.
<!--quoteo(post=1881725:date=Oct 24 2011, 05:17 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Oct 24 2011, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->instead of being red, the lights keep their current color,although much more dimmed. Alternatively, the lights will be totally black.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Total darkness plays well with alien vision and marine flashlights. You shouldn't lose that. The emergency lights/alarm do go off a lot, but that informs the marines (like an alarm should) that the power node life is low. Alternatively, lights could have backup batteries that turn on red lights for ~30 seconds after a node is destroyed.
I don't like messing with emergency lighting (looks great to me) or forcing marines to interact with a node before aliens can effect it.
I'm unsure about altering how Kharaa-control areas look and play by allowing aliens to keep power on, but am interested to see if it leads anywhere.
So the alien team has an easier time against marines in their territory while still retaining some lighting for the commander to see.
(Edit) Allowing infestation (in addition to players) to deal significant damage to Power Nodes sounds like a great idea. It would encourage aliens to push with infestation, over spending long periods of time attacking a Power Node. Infestation would play a role similar to the minions in League of Legends Dominion in capturing Capture Points.
I propose a simple power scheme, with the power state determined by node health thresholds (numbers are just examples):
<!--coloro:#10FF00--><span style="color:#10FF00"><!--/coloro-->1. Fully Powered (health => 50%): Lights and Power Node in the room glow brightly, and Marine structures are active.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FFA000--><span style="color:#FFA000"><!--/coloro-->2. Emergency Power (25% <= health < 50%): Lights are dim. Power Node begins flashing its yellow warning light. Marine structures are disabled.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF4020--><span style="color:#FF4020"><!--/coloro-->3. Disabled/Destroyed (health < 25%): Lights gradually dim, and power off. Power Node displays its warning light. Over time, the room becomes completely dark. Marine structures are disabled.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
* Alien infestation glows to light up the room, and indicate alien occupancy. As Cysts die, darkness returns, giving alien defenders an extra edge.
<u>(UI) Player interacttion with Power Node:</u>
Allow players on both teams to interact with the PN by press the "Use" key once to toggle interaction (or look away to cancel), instead of forcing Marines to hold the "Use" key for 20 seconds, and Aliens to hold their "attack" button for 20 seconds. The damage different alien lifeforms deal to Power Nodes should also be standardized, so no alien is disadvantaged when attacking Power Nodes. Their normal attack animations could be used for this.
<!--quoteo(post=1881753:date=Oct 24 2011, 03:35 PM:name=Jonacrab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jonacrab @ Oct 24 2011, 03:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not let the mappers decide how the room will look when unpowered?
As it stands there are some light fixtures, and different ways of lighting a room that make the emergency lighting really screw up the aesthetic.
For example: the lights on the tripod would not have built in emergency lighting, they are meant as portable lights, so it makes no sense that they would remain on in an emergency lighting situation (another example, I have a room in my map that has buckets with lava in them, and the way i Lit the lava there is no way for me to create a location box that would allow me to exclude the light created by the lava, thus, if i had no power in that room, the lava would be giving off emergency lighting, which is an obvious thing to destroy the atmosphere of a lighting scheme).
Perhaps you could allow the mappers a completely different lighting scheme that would only activate when the power goes off. Im not sure if this is possible, since its not something that is currently in the editor (IE, in the editor you have the option to view the lit mode, the wireframe or unlit mode, and it would be very difficult if having an alternate lighting scheme would require you to load the game each time you were trying to tweak the emergency lighting) But if you want to keep the aesthetic, give the mappers control of how the room will look in emergency lighting, not just making all current lights flash red.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great suggestion! I think what is needed is lights (esp ambient) with multiple settings, for the power states (on, off, dimmed). I imagine you can use lights that ignore power for the molten stuff in the buckets. However, the reflected (ambient) light would have to change to accurately reflect this.
Why not set the lights to ignore the powergrid?
Having an always protuding power point with some cage surrounding it might make the aliens wonder why they can't destroy the points since they can hack through a command chair easily enough.
Having a point that pops out of the wall tells the marines that the room is definitely ready to power structures - and also let the aliens know that it's definitely ready to be attacked.
Infestation should force the cage to short circuit and open, meaning alien occupied rooms can have their power points destroyed.
Only the commander should have the ability to open/close cages which aren't affected by infestation.
It would prevent griefing from marines on your team (some idiot running around opening all cages) and place more of the strategic calls in the commanders hands which would ultimately encourage more RTS style gameplay for them.
Marines could repair a power point, commander close the hatch so a room stays lit - even though no structures can be powered (might be too risky to drop a structure).
This would ensure the power would stay on longer even mid-game until the aliens manage to get more infestation into the room.
Having no infestation in a recently repaired, powered up room would make the aliens worry since it could be re-inforced and built up easily. It would hopefully also encourage gorges to drop more cysts.
IMO this balances out the power/infestation mechanic nicely and makes having both even more critical for each team.
Would eliminate all the early dark rooms, and also stop people from chomping on them during the first 2 minutes.
Personally I think it's the power packs infinite power that unbalances the power grid.
Give power packs a lifespans of 5 minutes when power goes down or power packs are newly built and make them cheaper.
They should be a stop gap measure like a backup battery and not a permanent power solution. Handing back the permanent solution to the nodes as it should be.
Obviously all areas would need a working power grid if this idea was implemented as summit has no power grid in a few locations.
Personally I'm not a fan of aliens having no control of a rooms power till marines have accessed it's power node.
The atmosphere of running around dark areas is great. I love the look of flashlights everywhere. It's haunting and tense.
I feel like in your design document you're sometimes not really asking the right questions or fixing the right problems.
To clarify: problem #1 seems correct, and is more fundamentally stated as: "rooms with redundant power defenses and a lot of static defense are not fun". This is true! They are not. And things that are not fun ought to be excised.
Regarding #2: I personally wouldn't be concerned with the loss of a room's appearance <b>if</b> that loss results in fun gameplay.
#3 is a clear problem.
#4 seems dubious. If the power switches back and forth, I don't really understand how that reduces drama or specialness. It seems to me that if a game develops a room that changes hands frequently, that <i>adds</i> drama. And again, be sure to concentrate on fun. If a room "lacks drama" but nonetheless is the center to a lot of fun, exciting gameplay, then that's fine.
I like the power system idea broadly. Extending and securing map control is the central contest of NS.
However, chewing on power nodes is dull. Attacking RTs is dull as well, for both teams, but this doesn't really bother me for two reasons:
1) You know that the other team knows that RT is being attacked, so there's some inherent tension
2) It also means that you're devoting some of your resources NOW (time + some number of your team's players) to denying the enemy team resources in the future. This is a fun, cool choice.
Power nodes and attacking them lack the two justifications above. They're not really a choice, and they're especially not a choice that you make tactically to give yourself an advantage.
I would suggest something along these lines:
1) Rooms default to powered
2) There's some switch that can be hit or something that temporarily cuts this power, such that there's emergency lightning for some number of seconds. After this number, the lights come back on of their own accord.
3) Once a room becomes 1/3 or more covered in infestation, the lights go off until the infestation is cleared
4) there's some attachment or something that marines have to build to siphon power for their structures. So even with the lights on, marine structures don't work until they've spread their equivalent of infestation. This should be easier to kill than the alien equivalent of numerous cysts, but also easier/faster to build. (i.e.: the transponders from the design doc)
This system would result in aliens being able to make a choice when they're going to engage marines. Do we shut off the power in this room, knowing that the marines will be alerted to our presence? Can the marines see the switch from where they're likely to enter the room? Or do we leave the lights on and ambush normally as they sprint into the fully-lit room?
I would also suggest that mapmakers do their best to include transitional areas in the maps - places that are lit but nonetheless advantage aliens just as much as wide-open, well-lit rooms advantage marines.
This idea is nice; it saves people the boredom of attacking power nodes while still giving aliens control over power. It also forces marines to clear out a room before they can get the power going.
<ol type='1'><li>Area one under control by the marines has a power node</li><li>in between area gets powered from a powerpack for a limited amount of time, just enough perhaps to fight towards the next area</li><li>Once the next area is under marine control, the in between area has a constant supply of power</li><li>If either of the rooms loses power, the in between area loses power as well.</li></ol>
All in all I'd like to see a similar "cutting off" possibility for the powergrid as well, Company of Heroes style or for better comparison similar to the aliens :P
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Im glad power is being discussed, I think power vs. infestation realy works well in defing the tech vs. nature elements of the game. Power packs should go, it will hit the marines hard at this balance but it will encourage more momentous and game changing turning points.
Just to agree with others, the most important marker between alien and marine territory is the lighting. It's really atmospheric trying to venture into a dark room as a Marine. Especially useful are those few seconds of blackness before emergency lighting comes on, it gives aliens a reason to use their vision and creates a psychological impact which fits with the aesthetic of the game. Perhaps the cages will help to make this a rarer and more special occurance, but it might also make alien areas less scary.
Taking previous posts further, it could be interesting to allow infestation to cut lighting completely by interfacing with the power node, perhaps even if the cage is on?
I'm not opposed to lots of soft glows in alien buildings, but eventually I think they should be offset by a lingering fog which will give skulks cover and increase the role of infestation.
My personal preference would be to keep lots of dark rooms but increase the number of small, irratic lights, ie flashing monitors or sweeping emergency lights giving detailed glimpses of the environment, whilst the rest stays relatively dark. I think this will show off the artwork best whilst preserving atmosphere and gameplay mechanics.
I am not sure where you are going with this, but it seems as if it is going to get to complex and hard to understand for someone interested in Natural Selection 2 with no prior knowledge to Natural Selection. Here is my suggestion:
<ol type='1'><li>Have the repair time for Power Nodes multiple every time they are destroyed causing the Marines to be forced to hold power in area or suffer longer build times. After a certain amount of times of being destroyed, have it non-repairable by Marines and force the usage of MACs to repair it from then on out.</li><li>Eliminate the cage idea map wide. I can see this being useful in location that contain a tech point (such as Data Core/Marine Start/Heliport/etc.). They also need to be able to take damage from the Kharaa, otherwise new players will be confused why they are unable to destroy a simple cage, yet they are able to chomp down a large piece of metal such as a Command Station.</li><li>The transponder concept I find a bit odd and a little to hard to apply to a mutliplayer game. If you are referring to the concept(s) used in Dead Space with it's transponders and circuit system for powering up areas, just remember, it works in single player as you can take your time to get power in a location. I do not think the imp0lementation of transponders would work in Natural Selection 2 which is a multiplayer only game.</li><li>I do like the suggestion of your lighting system as currently the room is extremely dark and at times difficult for Marines to see a damned thing. Keep your concept with your lighting and the above items and I think you will achieve your goal without changing something that is easy to understand to something that is very complicated it work with.</li></ol>
I don't entirely agree with this. An issue with powerpacks is a red herring as the underlying problem is turret/bacon/grenade spam. Making power available everywhere for 0 res doesn't fix the underlying problem of spammed up marines. I have to argue that the mechanic of powerpacks having a res opportunity cost and being faster to build than repairing powernodes adds to gameplay.
<b>Problem 2-</b>
I always thought unpowered red lighting was part of the visual look. If your talking about mapping detail, i tend not to notice most of it due to doing other stuff like looking for skulks or alien flashlight.
<b>
Problem 3-</b>
Definitely a problem but the proposed solution doesn't fix this entirely. Currently able to intuitively tell whether a room is powered or not by the lighting (red/normal). With the powerpoint system, you have to go outside the room and inspect to see whether the cage has been taken off or not. I don't want to need to literally look at every single powerpoint to see whether marines can build there or not especially if theres going to be alot more powerpoints now.
<b>
Problem 4-</b>
Over time special moments or new experiences always lose their drama and solid gameplay and mechanics is what matters. Changing to a caged system doesn't solve this issue: it only prevents marines from encountering unpowered rooms on their first pass through. You also lose the drama of walking into a room for the first time and having the power unexpectedly turned off when aliens purposely leave the powernode on 1%.
<b>Cage Solution -</b>
It doesn't sound like it does anything new mechanically. Instead of killing/building powernodes, all your doing is killing/building power transmitters with the added cage rule. <u> <b>I think marines should be punished for ignoring half the map - the cost of aliens doing so is spending time chewing a powernode</b></u>. Not a fan of initially invulnerable lighting. Perhaps there is a middleground where the cage has a set ammount of hp and can be destroyed by aliens.
Also, please keep the pulsing red lighting - emergency lighting doesn't make sense intuitively otherwise! Simply dimming lighting by lowering the intensity of light points would make carefully tuned map lighting look weird wouldnt it? Interested to see how a pulsing power effect might be done but at this point i'm not sure whether im for it or not. I think maybe instead of adding visual clutter, maybe an emphasis on sound giving feedback might provide a better experience?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Put power point sockets all over the map, including alien areas. Every part of the map should be covered by exactly one power point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't this already achievable with the current powernode system just that its up to the mapper to do so? Placing them everywhere is only going to <u><b>promote</b></u> ridiculously boring entrenched marine play. Also making power potentially available everywhere for 0 res seems to make having the powergrid system as a whole a bit redundant i think..
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Power points should be placed where they’re vulnerable from fire outside of rooms. They are placed in an opposite way of tech points: they should be somewhat snipable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Turret spam + grenades makes snipability pretty hard. Not to mention only lerks and gorges can snipe.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- If rooms change hands too often, increase repair time and health each time it is repaired.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This would just lead back to problem 2 wouldn't it? (rooms unpowered for too long because no one can be bothered repairing)