<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...destroying it dims the lights and unpowers structures. We will try to have it go completely dark and have the alien structures illuminate the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So the red flashing lights will be gone? While reading this i thought this would be a nice cosmetic feature: what if there would be a light- or brightness gradient between parts of the map that are controlled by aliens and the ones that marines control. Powered rooms would be powered and lit as they are now. Rooms that are unpowered but not completely in alien control(=not infested) (or rooms that are next to powered ones) would still have a small amount of electricity left, enough to power the red flashing warning lights. But the further a marine would go into alien land the less lights would be powered so the next room is pitch black forcing everyone to turn on the flash lights....
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"It then functions like the power points in the beta currently: destroying it dims the lights and unpowers structures. <b><u>We will try to have it go completely dark and have the alien structures illuminate the map</u></b>"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Highlighted part. A suggestion:
Complete darkness should <b>only be when there's Croach/Infestation reaching to the power-node</b>. Infestation shuts it down completely.
That way you could have three territories: the lit area (marine), contested (blinking red) and completely dark (alien with glowing structures).
Gorges could use this to great effect to trigger darkness in an outlying location by creating an unconnected Small Cyst as well.
I'm not totally sure what the difference is in the newest rework, seems to be mostly aesthetics while keeping the gameplay of the original rework the same.
<!--quoteo(post=1882063:date=Oct 26 2011, 01:34 AM:name=Scrogneugneu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrogneugneu @ Oct 26 2011, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see how aliens can control the lighting in their territory if the marine commander first didn't drop that power node in a socket. The only way to darken a room is by first building the power node, then destroying it?
From what I can gather, here are the main points (with some of mine added)
For aliens : <ul><li>The lighting in a room must <b>always</b> be controllable in some way</li><li>The glowing structures look very nice, but defeat the idea of hiding a structure / hiding yourself</li><li>Holding "attack" for 20 seconds, only affecting the health of a structure, is not that great (even if RT work that way)</li></ul> For Marines : <ul><li>Moving around in dark rooms adds to the atmosphere and overall game experience</li><li>Dropping in at a random spot to make a small base is part of the marine gameplay</li></ul> For Devs : <ul><li>Power packs defeat the purpose of power nodes, and empower marines too much</li><li>Dark rooms mean the visual details are lost, and it happens too often</li><li>Gameplay-wise, not being able to build in some places is unexpected, as no visual feedback is given</li><li>Too much switching between lights on and light off means the actual switch isn't as dramatic as it should be</li></ul>
That said, the proposed solution does not meet what I would expect from most angles. As aliens, we want to have rooms kept in the dark. As marines, we want them lit. As devs, you want people to see your work most of the time, and really be affected by the loss of lighting. Those are incompatible goals, since the aliens will always try to keep a room dark, the marines will always try to light them up, and as such, the switch will inevitably happen a lot. Something needs to be changed if we want everyone to be happy.
Maybe if a damaged power node would shut down, progressively, just *some* lights. And if completely destroyed, some lights would still stay on, but most of them be off. Some might sometimes flicker a bit. This would reflect ongoing damage to the power node, would give aliens dark spots to hide in a room, marines would get some light to see around and feel safer, and everyone can enjoy the graphical art and detail since some lights are there. It's pretty much a very dimmed environment, where aliens can hide, but a carefully looking marine will spot them.
Now, when do those light actually go completely off? Enter the infestation. A room with a power node completely destroyed and with infestation inside, would go pretty much pitch black as it is now. This is now clearly deep alien territory, and as such it should give them full advantage. As for the glowing structures, I would say the hive should glow, but the other structures should stay very, very low on the glow level (or even not glow at all in some cases). It adds some visual effect, but still enables structures to be hidden around.
On to power packs. Overpowered? Yes. Unbalancing? Yes. Why? Because they last forever. Give them 30 seconds of fuel. The commander can refuel it with an icon. This will require the commander's attention to work, and will then force a small base with power packs to be what it should always have been : a special, use-it-now base of operations. You can't put up a turret farm powered by a power pack if you need to cycle around and refuel it every 30 seconds, but you can very well build a small base with an armory or something and keep it working for the duration of a hive push. Power packs should be temporary solutions, rather than permanent installments. This is why they do not work right now.
As for the "why can't I make that building here?!" phenomena, there should be a visual feedback of the active power grid when placing down buildings. Every part of the map should be controlled by a power node, to make it simple. Failing that, zones should be able to be configured to act depending on multiple power nodes, so that if a corridor is dependent on the 2 power nodes from each rooms it joins, both of them need to be at least at 60%, or 40%, or whatever level you want to configure to also provide power to the corridor. This means a particular area linked by 3 nodes could ask for at least 2 of the 3 nodes to be at least at 50% health for power to be provided. It's more complicated, but provides a more natural and flexible feel to the map.
The power system as it is now seems to be good. If I was asked to answer the 4 problems listed in the document, I would do it like so :
<ol type='1'><li><b>Power packs are flawed</b> : Force them to become the temporary solution they should be.</li><li><b>Too much time is spent with rooms in powered-off mode</b> : Make it easier to get some kind of partial lighting back on.</li><li><b>There are places where the marines can’t build and it’s not clear why</b> : Provide more visual feedback. Make sure eventually, you can build anywhere.</li><li><b>The powered state of rooms changes back and forth a lot</b> : This is the basis of the game and the result of aliens wanting dark and marines wanting light. Changing this is very hard.</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great ideas. +1
I really like the idea of powerpacks being a temporary solution. They would help to power a room long enough for the marines to repair the power node. If the devs think this would make it useless: you might be able to upgrade them to an advanced powerpack, which doesn't need to be refilled - but you should limit it to ONE per room. Otherwise marines will fortify themselves, which leads to a stalemate.
Also the "neutral" lighting with dark spots to hide is what I'd like to see ingame. To make gameplay more dynamic, it should be a slowly changing random pattern though. This way skulks have to be aware of their surroundings and marines can't spam grenades to the never changing dark spot where skulks always hide on this map.
I think, the only glowing alien structures should be the hive and pustules. Everything else would look too "friendly" and make it hard / impossible to hide the structures. Absolutely pitch black rooms look a bit weird, there should be at least a tiny bit of flickering light and maybe sparks from cables or machines, which help to illuminate the surrounding a bit. To make visually clear that this room is under alien control, you should fill the air with some fog or add mist to the ground.
+1 to cysts being powered by an empty socket i like that idea it would give gorges another thing they can do to keep alive outposts im sure it would make for great game play strategy's. plus add something like they have as much health as the marine nodes do and take a little time to build.
<!--quoteo(post=1882109:date=Oct 26 2011, 04:42 AM:name=Ender_74)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ender_74 @ Oct 26 2011, 04:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A role for the Gorge ? How about he can drop a structure in the socket that enable the cysts around to be connected even if there is no hive ? It would need to be limited to a few cysts, like 3 connections or so. It could enable aliens to have outposts, however they would be relying on the socket, kill the socket structure and all cysts will go unconnected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
I wonder if Power Packs could be kept in the game as backup power, with heavy limitations: <ul><li>Has an energy meter that drains when deployed, but can be switched off to stop the drain on energy, which may regenerate.</li><li>Minimal health</li><li>Costs more Team Resources than Power Nodes</li></ul>
On the plus side, it could be very fast to construct, to help it fill its role.
I don't understand the purpose of the commander dropping the power node if it's going to exist forever after that. May as well just leave it like it is now, except have all the power nodes be destroyed at the start of the game.
I`m a big fan of this Gorges can place Cysts or something alike into those sockets to trigger that utter darkness thing. But i guess especially those "powered" cysts should radiate some lightning as they are literally bursting with power. Maybe even get the cysts further away from powered cysts to radiate less, so u basically get a well lit Socket area and some nice ambush spots for skulks a little off those sockets as marines would try to snipe the socket to get some light going again. Maybe get the Shade to eliminate this glow whilst cloak is activated to get the room go pitch black. As otherwise Shades would be pretty redundant in those regards. Maybe make hydra counter reliant on the "power" of the cysts, so u could heavily entrench the socket itself with tons of hydras but have a somewhat limited amount available on the most far off cysts.
The changing lit/dark areas for neutral rooms can make for very dynamic gameplay as well which i would really approve. So basically you get those contested rooms where neither Marines nor Aliens have an outstanding advantage. This could also be referring to the general state of these Maps as they are usually abandoned Facilities/Science Labs and whatnot. So you`d end up with a lit MS and probably a few lit hallways. Flickering/dynamic lighted neutral rooms which switch their lightning to whoever is controlling them. And last but not least an Alien Spawn thats pitch black except for some orangish glow radiated by the hive and the cysts connected to it.
This leads to the Marine side of powering those sockets. Marine Commanders should be able to drop some sort of power pack into those sockets to get the room fully operational again and get Marines or Macs to construct those packs. As for powering structures in those rooms, those sockets should be responding somehow to the number of structures connected to it. Like plugging all your electric stuff into a single power strip is leading to a meltdown of these the socket should be more fragile the more stuff you connect to it. This way you would discourage turtling up as it would make your socket more and more fragile and this way would leave you with only like 2 hits on that socket before all your turrets deny their duties due to the lack of power. Tho maybe those packs should be upgradeable to support more "links" safely(at a increasing cost to prevent mass turtling with mini nuclear reactor like socket). As for Marine Structures, those sockets would be required to be implemented all over the map, so you`d be able to build in Alien spawn once you cleansed it. This would make power packs useless as of how they are now, or maybe get the power packs do the job of those socket upgrades, as they provide some external source of power, tho they need to be reliant to the socket so you don`t get those 10 power pack 40 turret bases that can be encountered from time to time.
Probably even give marines some sort of "patchwork solution" for powering sockets temporally by punching their Flashlights Battery into the socket to get it running for like 15s but make the Marine be unable to use his flashlight for like another 15s after the socket boost expired so u don`t end up spamming this. This could be used as some sort of pre-securing an assault on an contested room for your fellow teammates by sacrificing your flashlight for the sake of providing better intel for your teammates. Something similar should be in for Aliens, maybe biting on those sockets constantly will cause more flickering so 1 skulk could get an advantage for his teammates by exposing himself while chewing that socket (no dmg would be done to the socket it just tips the advantage to the aliens).
<!--quoteo(post=1882026:date=Oct 25 2011, 10:00 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Oct 25 2011, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have two aspects of power; light and "power". Infestation nullify both of those, aliens can nullify power. The idea would be to have the light on in any room not covered by infestation. All roomes have "sockets" (looking like a killed powernode).
There are three stages a room may be in. Default is <!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->light up<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. A <!--coloro:green--><span style="color:green"><!--/coloro-->powered<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> room is where marines may build structures. An <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->infested<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> room is both dark and unpowered.
<ul><li>To add power and be able to build in a given room, the marines need to; Clear the infestation (from the socket?), attach a powerpack on the socket (now it looks like a normal powernode), build/activate the powerpack. The powerpack could be destroyed by aliens to unpower all marine structures in the area, but the light would stay on. (the electricity is still running, but the marines can't sap it). </li><li>To remove power, the aliens need to kill the powernode. This would unpower all marine structures in the area, but the light would stay on. (the electricity is still running, but the marines can't sap it). Infesting the node would also kill the power (the pack would take damage until killed, faster than the lights go out). </li><li>To remove the light (and the power if it's still there), the Kharaa would infest the room, and over a period of time (minute or so?), the light would dim to black. No emergency power works, the system is shortened out. When infestation is cleared, the light should flicker and go to full power over a series of ~10 seconds.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this solution the most, as it sounds so straight forward and less hacky. Actually, I would go a step ahead:
<b>Ditch powernodes alltogether:</b>
- Any light is directly affected by nearby infestation. If there is no infestation nearby, the light is on. This means lights will realistically turn on/off based on the amount of infestation. - Power packs (similar to old turret factories) are the main source for energy for buildings. They dont affect lighting of a room (lighting is only affected by infestation). - A tech point is like a larger power pack. - Power packs need to be connected to each other just like infestation, tech points being the main source Power packs would be visually connected by a glowing cable (similar to the waypoint guiding line) to indicate how power packs are connected. - Marines cannot build on infestation, however: - Infestation can grow over marine structures and gradually damage them over time (but it doesnt shut down their power, unless the power pack is destroyed)
This is super simple (gameplay-wise, not implementation-wise) and solves many problems with power nodes as it gets rid of them. I think they sound cool in theory but are awful in actual gameplay because they are a static element in an otherwise dynamic environment. Also, the change of lighting will be less sudden and frequently, as light is only depending on infestation growth.
<!--quoteo(post=1882154:date=Oct 26 2011, 10:55 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (w0dk4 @ Oct 26 2011, 10:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like this solution the most, as it sounds so straight forward and less hacky. Actually, I would go a step ahead:
<b>Ditch powernodes alltogether:</b>
- Any light is directly affected by nearby infestation. If there is no infestation nearby, the light is on. This means lights will realistically turn on/off based on the amount of infestation. - Power packs (similar to old turret factories) are the main source for energy for buildings. They dont affect lighting of a room (lighting is only affected by infestation). - A tech point is like a larger power pack. - Power packs need to be connected to each other just like infestation, tech points being the main source Power packs would be visually connected by a glowing cable (similar to the waypoint guiding line) to indicate how power packs are connected. - Marines cannot build on infestation, however: - Infestation can grow over marine structures and gradually damage them over time (but it doesnt shut down their power, unless the power pack is destroyed)
This is super simple (gameplay-wise, not implementation-wise) and solves many problems with power nodes as it gets rid of them. I think they sound cool in theory but are awful in actual gameplay because they are a static element in an otherwise dynamic environment. Also, the change of lighting will be less sudden and frequently, as light is only depending on infestation growth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like how this idea sounds on paper, but I wonder if this change makes Marine power a bit <i>too</i> much like Kharaa infestation?
- A tech point is like a larger power pack. - Power packs need to be connected to each other just like infestation, tech points being the main source
Powerpacks cost res, cant be spammed and need to be build - its not like infestation. (energy, autobuild, build lots of them, and gorge emergency cyst builder) Also aliens will only need to attack the 2 rooms around the marine start to cut off power of everything outside. The techpoint idea... you cant hold this for long if you dont focus on holding it with most of your men... but then you give aliens a free 2ndhive. Build/Defend and attack hives is the main goal, and build/defend and attack rts the secondary - i dont think we need more.
Have you ever played a scrim lately, its already run around defend/recycle and rebuild rts all the time... with this powerpack linked idea you add 10 additional tres to every rt that can be destroyed an needs to be rebuild... If you exclude rts from the need power buildings, you just make the game more confusing.
- Infestation can grow over marine structures and gradually damage them over time (but it doesnt shut down their power, unless the power pack is destroyed)
Yeah because infestation is not good enough already...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you ever played a scrim lately, on the heliport side its run around defend/recycle and rebuild rts all the time... with this powerpack linked idea you add 10 additional tres to every rt that can be destroyed an needs to be rebuild... this idea is crap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like how this idea sounds on paper, but I wonder if this change makes Marine power a bit too much like Kharaa infestation?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, its a valid critique. Alternatively, power packs can also connect to power nodes, but power nodes would then simply be undestructible entities. If they are covered with infestation, they would stop supplying power to power packs. I.e. to make use of such an undestructible power node, a commander simply builds a power pack in the range of the node.
Hi just read over the google doc... would just like to ask; are the power nodes going to be "invincible" once the commander places them? Meaning the marines can always repair them? Should the power nodes have certain uses on them before the commander is forced to place another one for his team?
I don't understand the 'changes' in the updated system. Sounds mostly the same as now.
Lets go back over the problem statement.
Problem #1: Power packs are flawed: ..... AGREED: Drop power packs.
Problem #2: Too much time is spent with rooms in powered-off mode, meaning the visual look is often lost. Then it must be more difficult to take power down.
Problem #3: There are places where the marines can’t build and it’s not clear why. Ie, tram tunnel, Crevice, Crossroads and areas near Alien Start. ANSWER: Clarify the power areas to the Commander and the overhead map. A translucent overlay of power areas perhaps.
Problem #4: The powered state of rooms changes back and forth a lot, removing some of the drama and special nature of those moments. This is a vague statement...how often are they changing and how how often do you expect them to change?
The best suggestion that would be different was the one of making the infestation destroy power nodes. This would remove the back and forth of the power nodes and slow it to actual territory occupation flow. It could even be preceded by only CONNECTED infestation could destroy a powernode....so a rogue gorge could not flip the switch all the time. So the power nodes would be more valuable ...only the commander can place a new one and then it could be built.
Such a drastic change could be prevented simply by building a turret though. :-)
The update is basically two points. The main reason would seem to make the source of power static. <ol type='1'><li>Before the marines can build in a given location, they need to place a powernode there.</li><li>Once built, it functions pretty similar to how it is current.</li></ol> It isn't clear from the update if infestation darkens a room. I hope this is the case, and I would assume it is, as the main hive would always be illuminated otherwise.
The way they are desctibed now, you have a certain assymetry to how power and lights are handled before and after socket placement. Before, we must assume, there is light in the room. If this isn't the case, the entire map will start out dimmed/dark and heavily favour Kharaa. In the beginning, we have three zones; Marine spawn (powered), contested zones (illuminated) and Kharaa spawn (dark). When you push out, you just have to place the socket to gain advantage in a room. From there on, the power and light will always stick together.
As the game progress, the contested area will switch hands back and forth, and an even game will result on all sockets eventually being placed. Now we only have two kinds of zones; marine controlled (powered) and Kharaa controlled (dark). To push forward, you have to fight in the darkness, and as soon as you get light, you have power and can set up your base There will be sudden swings, like now, betwean the two stages. This is what I think keeping the third state, that exist in the beginning, for the entire game is a good idea. All that would be needed to keep this gameplay would be to make the sockets go away once destroyed and need to be replaced.
Ideally there will be rooms that neighter marines nor Kharaa can secure, they can both make raids against another but can't secure the middle ground. By allowing contested rooms, you can hold back the immediate threat of a forward base on your dorstep. The Kharaa can make sure that the marines have no power, and the marines can make sure the Kharaa have no infestation. None will have a distinct advantage over the other, no building backup for marines, no darkness for aliens. This will give less sudden swings; you have to secure a room before you can take it over and give you the advantage. This would also give both the marine but more importantly the Kharaa commander play a more active roll in the fighting, with standing by with infestation to take over a captured room to make it your own.
I like the idea of connecting infestion with the lighting so the deeper you go into alien territory the less and less it looks fimiliar. This will have a very unnerving affect for marines who try to push deep into alien territory without clearing out the front first. They start in a fully lit, friendly marine space station, push out into a room under siege where the lights are flickering and dimming on and off and infestation is creeping in, then they move into a completely infested area where there is no signs of humans ever being there; everything is covering in a nasty infestation and is pitch black accept for some small random glowing bulbs and maybe structures in the infestation.
This would also give gorges more importance because they could begin the infestation ahead of the commander and get the power down. Now if the marines push back, of course the power will quickly come back after the gorge is killed and he can't maintain the infestation.
This also limits, or changes the strategic value of, some mapping choices. Places like the Alien Spawn in Summit are lit from outside, and while the room is aesthetically pleasing with that large dome overhead, there's no way to really justify the lack of power in there preventing light from coming in. Same is really true of any room with a window that isn't open to empty space (even planets reflect enough light that you'd expect to have some coming in). Of course, that means you can deliberately choose to make some rooms guaranteed to be at least partially lit (or have partially lit areas), and could add mapping choices like the TSA ship being parked outside shining bright lights in. And there's nothing that says Croach couldn't grow over windows and blot them out, either...
<!--quoteo(post=1882215:date=Oct 26 2011, 06:51 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Oct 26 2011, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Infestation covering the windows could prevent light from entering.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The same should be true for light fixtures.
which leads to another point: infestation needs more vertical spread. you need to be able to affix them to ceilings as a comm. not sure how it's gonna work, but yeah, right now infestation gameplay is limited to a very narrow range on the z-axis, having it spread out to cover the ceilings would add another dimension to the game (and perhaps allowing alien structures to be built on walls/ceilings as well)
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1882246:date=Oct 26 2011, 06:59 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Oct 26 2011, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->which leads to another point: infestation needs more vertical spread. you need to be able to affix them to ceilings as a comm. not sure how it's gonna work, but yeah, right now infestation gameplay is limited to a very narrow range on the z-axis, having it spread out to cover the ceilings would add another dimension to the game (and perhaps allowing alien structures to be built on walls/ceilings as well)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We should extend the vertical range of Gorge structure placement. Imagine infestation covering up light sources like this: <img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/NS22011-10-2713-56-19-02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1882258:date=Oct 26 2011, 07:57 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Oct 26 2011, 07:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We should extend the vertical range of Gorge structure placement. Imagine infestation covering up light sources like this<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The person who posted the pic with infestation growing on the windows looks very cool!. Maybe there is a way to increase the radious of infection that hives give up. Hives really should be the nastiest of the nasty when it comes to infestation. ]
In festation should also turn off lights/dim lights.... I really like the ideas were marines have to burn out infestation or something in order to gain access to a room. If someone wanted to stick a hidden phase gate in near a hive they first need to burn/explode a spot out of infest station before they can turtle there would be good.
i like the 3 phases of power idea neutral with50-70%lit room no power. marines control with a power node 100% lighting power to structures. and alien control between 0-20% lighting depending on the infestation in a room no power at all. just add the powered cysts and you got a nice power scheme.
both sides should beable to use the power node for there own purposes
<!--quoteo(post=1882246:date=Oct 27 2011, 01:59 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Oct 27 2011, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->which leads to another point: infestation needs more vertical spread. you need to be able to affix them to ceilings as a comm. not sure how it's gonna work, but yeah, right now infestation gameplay is limited to a very narrow range on the z-axis, having it spread out to cover the ceilings would add another dimension to the game (and perhaps allowing alien structures to be built on walls/ceilings as well)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We probably won't give alien comms the ability to place cysts on walls and ceilings, as that can lead to a lot of issues, both technical and gameplaywise. But we do intend that the final form of infestation that we will eventually have will continue to expand out on its own, beyond the initial placement spread (though probably at a slower rate) and grow up walls and on ceilings -- or at least definitely walls, ceilings are a bit trickier.
We've also always wanted infestation to filter and change the lighting a bit, when it grows over lights and takes over a room. It probably might be something we do with a combination of dimming the lights and maybe a post processing color grading effect. <!--quoteo(post=1882171:date=Oct 26 2011, 05:57 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Oct 26 2011, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand the 'changes' in the updated system. Sounds mostly the same as now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's kind of the point. We realized that we were over complicating things with the first round of power point changes, so we revised it, and found we could make it more understandable and intuitive and take care of the issues we were trying to address, without large changes. That said, this new way still a few differences, some big, some small.
-Power packs removed -All areas on the map have the ability for marines to power their structures, which is less confusing then the current system. They just have to build a node in the empty sockets first -Aliens can't run around at the start of the game cutting power on their side of the map, so at least the first part of the game won't be played in darkness -Marine comm first has to place the node, which will cost a little bit of res, and marines/MACs build it. This matches the gameplay on the marine side better then current system, since they already have to place and build every other structure that can be attacked/interacted with. -There is more a feeling of marines having to claim a territory, by first getting a node built -The lights are no longer directly powered by the nodes themselves, so lights can be on, and the map can look as intended, even if no power node has been built. The lights going off now is merely a consequence of the node being destroyed and blowing out the circuits that power the lights -The node is now essentially a marine structure that is powered by the sockets, that is a transponder to send power to their other structures -Since the power off effect will not be as frequent and in as many parts of the map, for at least the first part of the game, we can make the effect a bit more extreme, by removing the red emergency lighting and keeping things mostly in darkness, so flashlights and marine chestplate lights, and ARC and MAC headlights, all have more impact on visibility in these areas.
The rest of the power node aspects remain pretty much the same as now -- aliens can attack them and cut the power, marines can repair them and get the power back on. It still may not be the perfect solution, but it addresses most of our concerns, while keeping the additional work to a minimum, and keeping the overall system still fairly simple and intuitive.
@Cory, I like pretty much everything in there. Especially the more extreme power-off effects. But does this mean that alient Hive's will pretty much always have full lighting? I really liked the idea of Hive's being dark but lit by glowing Alien structures. Very cool effect. Dark Alien hives I say!!
So here's my idea: Those power nodes/packs should cost the energy. CC energy - power packs would be the marine variant of pustules, meant to stop them from capturing the whole map really fast and also giving them a reason to build multiple CCs.
<!--quoteo(post=1882357:date=Oct 27 2011, 12:38 PM:name=Wavesonics)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wavesonics @ Oct 27 2011, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Cory, I like pretty much everything in there. Especially the more extreme power-off effects. But does this mean that alient Hive's will pretty much always have full lighting? I really liked the idea of Hive's being dark but lit by glowing Alien structures. Very cool effect. Dark Alien hives I say!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hives start with tons of infestation; that growth would cover the lights and make the area dark.
Comments
So the red flashing lights will be gone? While reading this i thought this would be a nice cosmetic feature: what if there would be a light- or brightness gradient between parts of the map that are controlled by aliens and the ones that marines control. Powered rooms would be powered and lit as they are now. Rooms that are unpowered but not completely in alien control(=not infested) (or rooms that are next to powered ones) would still have a small amount of electricity left, enough to power the red flashing warning lights. But the further a marine would go into alien land the less lights would be powered so the next room is pitch black forcing everyone to turn on the flash lights....
Highlighted part. A suggestion:
Complete darkness should <b>only be when there's Croach/Infestation reaching to the power-node</b>. Infestation shuts it down completely.
That way you could have three territories: the lit area (marine), contested (blinking red) and completely dark (alien with glowing structures).
Gorges could use this to great effect to trigger darkness in an outlying location by creating an unconnected Small Cyst as well.
From what I can gather, here are the main points (with some of mine added)
For aliens :
<ul><li>The lighting in a room must <b>always</b> be controllable in some way</li><li>The glowing structures look very nice, but defeat the idea of hiding a structure / hiding yourself</li><li>Holding "attack" for 20 seconds, only affecting the health of a structure, is not that great (even if RT work that way)</li></ul>
For Marines :
<ul><li>Moving around in dark rooms adds to the atmosphere and overall game experience</li><li>Dropping in at a random spot to make a small base is part of the marine gameplay</li></ul>
For Devs :
<ul><li>Power packs defeat the purpose of power nodes, and empower marines too much</li><li>Dark rooms mean the visual details are lost, and it happens too often</li><li>Gameplay-wise, not being able to build in some places is unexpected, as no visual feedback is given</li><li>Too much switching between lights on and light off means the actual switch isn't as dramatic as it should be</li></ul>
That said, the proposed solution does not meet what I would expect from most angles. As aliens, we want to have rooms kept in the dark. As marines, we want them lit. As devs, you want people to see your work most of the time, and really be affected by the loss of lighting. Those are incompatible goals, since the aliens will always try to keep a room dark, the marines will always try to light them up, and as such, the switch will inevitably happen a lot. Something needs to be changed if we want everyone to be happy.
Maybe if a damaged power node would shut down, progressively, just *some* lights. And if completely destroyed, some lights would still stay on, but most of them be off. Some might sometimes flicker a bit. This would reflect ongoing damage to the power node, would give aliens dark spots to hide in a room, marines would get some light to see around and feel safer, and everyone can enjoy the graphical art and detail since some lights are there. It's pretty much a very dimmed environment, where aliens can hide, but a carefully looking marine will spot them.
Now, when do those light actually go completely off? Enter the infestation. A room with a power node completely destroyed and with infestation inside, would go pretty much pitch black as it is now. This is now clearly deep alien territory, and as such it should give them full advantage. As for the glowing structures, I would say the hive should glow, but the other structures should stay very, very low on the glow level (or even not glow at all in some cases). It adds some visual effect, but still enables structures to be hidden around.
On to power packs. Overpowered? Yes. Unbalancing? Yes. Why? Because they last forever. Give them 30 seconds of fuel. The commander can refuel it with an icon. This will require the commander's attention to work, and will then force a small base with power packs to be what it should always have been : a special, use-it-now base of operations. You can't put up a turret farm powered by a power pack if you need to cycle around and refuel it every 30 seconds, but you can very well build a small base with an armory or something and keep it working for the duration of a hive push. Power packs should be temporary solutions, rather than permanent installments. This is why they do not work right now.
As for the "why can't I make that building here?!" phenomena, there should be a visual feedback of the active power grid when placing down buildings. Every part of the map should be controlled by a power node, to make it simple. Failing that, zones should be able to be configured to act depending on multiple power nodes, so that if a corridor is dependent on the 2 power nodes from each rooms it joins, both of them need to be at least at 60%, or 40%, or whatever level you want to configure to also provide power to the corridor. This means a particular area linked by 3 nodes could ask for at least 2 of the 3 nodes to be at least at 50% health for power to be provided. It's more complicated, but provides a more natural and flexible feel to the map.
The power system as it is now seems to be good. If I was asked to answer the 4 problems listed in the document, I would do it like so :
<ol type='1'><li><b>Power packs are flawed</b> : Force them to become the temporary solution they should be.</li><li><b>Too much time is spent with rooms in powered-off mode</b> : Make it easier to get some kind of partial lighting back on.</li><li><b>There are places where the marines can’t build and it’s not clear why</b> : Provide more visual feedback. Make sure eventually, you can build anywhere.</li><li><b>The powered state of rooms changes back and forth a lot</b> : This is the basis of the game and the result of aliens wanting dark and marines wanting light. Changing this is very hard.</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great ideas. +1
I really like the idea of powerpacks being a temporary solution. They would help to power a room long enough for the marines to repair the power node.
If the devs think this would make it useless: you might be able to upgrade them to an advanced powerpack, which doesn't need to be refilled - but you should limit it to ONE per room. Otherwise marines will fortify themselves, which leads to a stalemate.
Also the "neutral" lighting with dark spots to hide is what I'd like to see ingame. To make gameplay more dynamic, it should be a slowly changing random pattern though. This way skulks have to be aware of their surroundings and marines can't spam grenades to the never changing dark spot where skulks always hide on this map.
I think, the only glowing alien structures should be the hive and pustules. Everything else would look too "friendly" and make it hard / impossible to hide the structures.
Absolutely pitch black rooms look a bit weird, there should be at least a tiny bit of flickering light and maybe sparks from cables or machines, which help to illuminate the surrounding a bit. To make visually clear that this room is under alien control, you should fill the air with some fog or add mist to the ground.
It would need to be limited to a few cysts, like 3 connections or so. It could enable aliens to have outposts, however they would be relying on the socket, kill the socket structure and all cysts will go unconnected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to this idea
needs same health as the marine one
<ul><li>Has an energy meter that drains when deployed, but can be switched off to stop the drain on energy, which may regenerate.</li><li>Minimal health</li><li>Costs more Team Resources than Power Nodes</li></ul>
On the plus side, it could be very fast to construct, to help it fill its role.
The changing lit/dark areas for neutral rooms can make for very dynamic gameplay as well which i would really approve. So basically you get those contested rooms where neither Marines nor Aliens have an outstanding advantage. This could also be referring to the general state of these Maps as they are usually abandoned Facilities/Science Labs and whatnot. So you`d end up with a lit MS and probably a few lit hallways. Flickering/dynamic lighted neutral rooms which switch their lightning to whoever is controlling them. And last but not least an Alien Spawn thats pitch black except for some orangish glow radiated by the hive and the cysts connected to it.
This leads to the Marine side of powering those sockets. Marine Commanders should be able to drop some sort of power pack into those sockets to get the room fully operational again and get Marines or Macs to construct those packs. As for powering structures in those rooms, those sockets should be responding somehow to the number of structures connected to it. Like plugging all your electric stuff into a single power strip is leading to a meltdown of these the socket should be more fragile the more stuff you connect to it. This way you would discourage turtling up as it would make your socket more and more fragile and this way would leave you with only like 2 hits on that socket before all your turrets deny their duties due to the lack of power. Tho maybe those packs should be upgradeable to support more "links" safely(at a increasing cost to prevent mass turtling with mini nuclear reactor like socket).
As for Marine Structures, those sockets would be required to be implemented all over the map, so you`d be able to build in Alien spawn once you cleansed it. This would make power packs useless as of how they are now, or maybe get the power packs do the job of those socket upgrades, as they provide some external source of power, tho they need to be reliant to the socket so you don`t get those 10 power pack 40 turret bases that can be encountered from time to time.
Probably even give marines some sort of "patchwork solution" for powering sockets temporally by punching their Flashlights Battery into the socket to get it running for like 15s but make the Marine be unable to use his flashlight for like another 15s after the socket boost expired so u don`t end up spamming this. This could be used as some sort of pre-securing an assault on an contested room for your fellow teammates by sacrificing your flashlight for the sake of providing better intel for your teammates.
Something similar should be in for Aliens, maybe biting on those sockets constantly will cause more flickering so 1 skulk could get an advantage for his teammates by exposing himself while chewing that socket (no dmg would be done to the socket it just tips the advantage to the aliens).
There are three stages a room may be in. Default is <!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->light up<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. A <!--coloro:green--><span style="color:green"><!--/coloro-->powered<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> room is where marines may build structures. An <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->infested<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> room is both dark and unpowered.
<ul><li>To add power and be able to build in a given room, the marines need to; Clear the infestation (from the socket?), attach a powerpack on the socket (now it looks like a normal powernode), build/activate the powerpack. The powerpack could be destroyed by aliens to unpower all marine structures in the area, but the light would stay on. (the electricity is still running, but the marines can't sap it).
</li><li>To remove power, the aliens need to kill the powernode. This would unpower all marine structures in the area, but the light would stay on. (the electricity is still running, but the marines can't sap it). Infesting the node would also kill the power (the pack would take damage until killed, faster than the lights go out).
</li><li>To remove the light (and the power if it's still there), the Kharaa would infest the room, and over a period of time (minute or so?), the light would dim to black. No emergency power works, the system is shortened out. When infestation is cleared, the light should flicker and go to full power over a series of ~10 seconds.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this solution the most, as it sounds so straight forward and less hacky. Actually, I would go a step ahead:
<b>Ditch powernodes alltogether:</b>
- Any light is directly affected by nearby infestation. If there is no infestation nearby, the light is on.
This means lights will realistically turn on/off based on the amount of infestation.
- Power packs (similar to old turret factories) are the main source for energy for buildings. They dont affect lighting of a room (lighting is only affected by infestation).
- A tech point is like a larger power pack.
- Power packs need to be connected to each other just like infestation, tech points being the main source
Power packs would be visually connected by a glowing cable (similar to the waypoint guiding line) to indicate how power packs are connected.
- Marines cannot build on infestation, however:
- Infestation can grow over marine structures and gradually damage them over time (but it doesnt shut down their power, unless the power pack is destroyed)
This is super simple (gameplay-wise, not implementation-wise) and solves many problems with power nodes as it gets rid of them. I think they sound cool in theory but are awful in actual gameplay because they are a static element in an otherwise dynamic environment.
Also, the change of lighting will be less sudden and frequently, as light is only depending on infestation growth.
<b>Ditch powernodes alltogether:</b>
- Any light is directly affected by nearby infestation. If there is no infestation nearby, the light is on.
This means lights will realistically turn on/off based on the amount of infestation.
- Power packs (similar to old turret factories) are the main source for energy for buildings. They dont affect lighting of a room (lighting is only affected by infestation).
- A tech point is like a larger power pack.
- Power packs need to be connected to each other just like infestation, tech points being the main source
Power packs would be visually connected by a glowing cable (similar to the waypoint guiding line) to indicate how power packs are connected.
- Marines cannot build on infestation, however:
- Infestation can grow over marine structures and gradually damage them over time (but it doesnt shut down their power, unless the power pack is destroyed)
This is super simple (gameplay-wise, not implementation-wise) and solves many problems with power nodes as it gets rid of them. I think they sound cool in theory but are awful in actual gameplay because they are a static element in an otherwise dynamic environment.
Also, the change of lighting will be less sudden and frequently, as light is only depending on infestation growth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like how this idea sounds on paper, but I wonder if this change makes Marine power a bit <i>too</i> much like Kharaa infestation?
- Power packs need to be connected to each other just like infestation, tech points being the main source
Powerpacks cost res, cant be spammed and need to be build - its not like infestation. (energy, autobuild, build lots of them, and gorge emergency cyst builder)
Also aliens will only need to attack the 2 rooms around the marine start to cut off power of everything outside.
The techpoint idea... you cant hold this for long if you dont focus on holding it with most of your men... but then you give aliens a free 2ndhive.
Build/Defend and attack hives is the main goal, and build/defend and attack rts the secondary - i dont think we need more.
Have you ever played a scrim lately, its already run around defend/recycle and rebuild rts all the time... with this powerpack linked idea you add 10 additional tres to every rt that can be destroyed an needs to be rebuild... If you exclude rts from the need power buildings, you just make the game more confusing.
- Infestation can grow over marine structures and gradually damage them over time (but it doesnt shut down their power, unless the power pack is destroyed)
Yeah because infestation is not good enough already...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like how this idea sounds on paper, but I wonder if this change makes Marine power a bit too much like Kharaa infestation?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, its a valid critique. Alternatively, power packs can also connect to power nodes, but power nodes would then simply be undestructible entities. If they are covered with infestation, they would stop supplying power to power packs.
I.e. to make use of such an undestructible power node, a commander simply builds a power pack in the range of the node.
Sounds mostly the same as now.
Lets go back over the problem statement.
Problem #1: Power packs are flawed: .....
AGREED: Drop power packs.
Problem #2: Too much time is spent with rooms in powered-off mode, meaning the visual look is often lost.
Then it must be more difficult to take power down.
Problem #3: There are places where the marines can’t build and it’s not clear why. Ie, tram tunnel, Crevice, Crossroads and areas near Alien Start.
ANSWER: Clarify the power areas to the Commander and the overhead map. A translucent overlay of power areas perhaps.
Problem #4: The powered state of rooms changes back and forth a lot, removing some of the drama and special nature of those moments.
This is a vague statement...how often are they changing and how how often do you expect them to change?
The best suggestion that would be different was the one of making the infestation destroy power nodes.
This would remove the back and forth of the power nodes and slow it to actual territory occupation flow.
It could even be preceded by only CONNECTED infestation could destroy a powernode....so a rogue gorge could not flip the switch all the time.
So the power nodes would be more valuable ...only the commander can place a new one and then it could be built.
Such a drastic change could be prevented simply by building a turret though. :-)
<ol type='1'><li>Before the marines can build in a given location, they need to place a powernode there.</li><li>Once built, it functions pretty similar to how it is current.</li></ol>
It isn't clear from the update if infestation darkens a room. I hope this is the case, and I would assume it is, as the main hive would always be illuminated otherwise.
The way they are desctibed now, you have a certain assymetry to how power and lights are handled before and after socket placement. Before, we must assume, there is light in the room. If this isn't the case, the entire map will start out dimmed/dark and heavily favour Kharaa. In the beginning, we have three zones; Marine spawn (powered), contested zones (illuminated) and Kharaa spawn (dark). When you push out, you just have to place the socket to gain advantage in a room. From there on, the power and light will always stick together.
As the game progress, the contested area will switch hands back and forth, and an even game will result on all sockets eventually being placed. Now we only have two kinds of zones; marine controlled (powered) and Kharaa controlled (dark). To push forward, you have to fight in the darkness, and as soon as you get light, you have power and can set up your base There will be sudden swings, like now, betwean the two stages. This is what I think keeping the third state, that exist in the beginning, for the entire game is a good idea. All that would be needed to keep this gameplay would be to make the sockets go away once destroyed and need to be replaced.
Ideally there will be rooms that neighter marines nor Kharaa can secure, they can both make raids against another but can't secure the middle ground. By allowing contested rooms, you can hold back the immediate threat of a forward base on your dorstep. The Kharaa can make sure that the marines have no power, and the marines can make sure the Kharaa have no infestation. None will have a distinct advantage over the other, no building backup for marines, no darkness for aliens. This will give less sudden swings; you have to secure a room before you can take it over and give you the advantage. This would also give both the marine but more importantly the Kharaa commander play a more active roll in the fighting, with standing by with infestation to take over a captured room to make it your own.
I like the idea of connecting infestion with the lighting so the deeper you go into alien territory the less and less it looks fimiliar. This will have a very unnerving affect for marines who try to push deep into alien territory without clearing out the front first. They start in a fully lit, friendly marine space station, push out into a room under siege where the lights are flickering and dimming on and off and infestation is creeping in, then they move into a completely infested area where there is no signs of humans ever being there; everything is covering in a nasty infestation and is pitch black accept for some small random glowing bulbs and maybe structures in the infestation.
This would also give gorges more importance because they could begin the infestation ahead of the commander and get the power down. Now if the marines push back, of course the power will quickly come back after the gorge is killed and he can't maintain the infestation.
The same should be true for light fixtures.
(This topic deserves its own thread).
We should extend the vertical range of Gorge structure placement. Imagine infestation covering up light sources like this:
<img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/NS22011-10-2713-56-19-02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115284&st=20" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...15284&st=20</a>
Maybe there is a way to increase the radious of infection that hives give up. Hives really should be the nastiest of the nasty when it comes to infestation.
]
In festation should also turn off lights/dim lights.... I really like the ideas were marines have to burn out infestation or something in order to gain access to a room. If someone wanted to stick a hidden phase gate in near a hive they first need to burn/explode a spot out of infest station before they can turtle there would be good.
and alien control between 0-20% lighting depending on the infestation in a room no power at all. just add the powered cysts and you got a nice power scheme.
both sides should beable to use the power node for there own purposes
We probably won't give alien comms the ability to place cysts on walls and ceilings, as that can lead to a lot of issues, both technical and gameplaywise. But we do intend that the final form of infestation that we will eventually have will continue to expand out on its own, beyond the initial placement spread (though probably at a slower rate) and grow up walls and on ceilings -- or at least definitely walls, ceilings are a bit trickier.
We've also always wanted infestation to filter and change the lighting a bit, when it grows over lights and takes over a room. It probably might be something we do with a combination of dimming the lights and maybe a post processing color grading effect.
<!--quoteo(post=1882171:date=Oct 26 2011, 05:57 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Oct 26 2011, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand the 'changes' in the updated system.
Sounds mostly the same as now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's kind of the point. We realized that we were over complicating things with the first round of power point changes, so we revised it, and found we could make it more understandable and intuitive and take care of the issues we were trying to address, without large changes. That said, this new way still a few differences, some big, some small.
-Power packs removed
-All areas on the map have the ability for marines to power their structures, which is less confusing then the current system. They just have to build a node in the empty sockets first
-Aliens can't run around at the start of the game cutting power on their side of the map, so at least the first part of the game won't be played in darkness
-Marine comm first has to place the node, which will cost a little bit of res, and marines/MACs build it. This matches the gameplay on the marine side better then current system, since they already have to place and build every other structure that can be attacked/interacted with.
-There is more a feeling of marines having to claim a territory, by first getting a node built
-The lights are no longer directly powered by the nodes themselves, so lights can be on, and the map can look as intended, even if no power node has been built. The lights going off now is merely a consequence of the node being destroyed and blowing out the circuits that power the lights
-The node is now essentially a marine structure that is powered by the sockets, that is a transponder to send power to their other structures
-Since the power off effect will not be as frequent and in as many parts of the map, for at least the first part of the game, we can make the effect a bit more extreme, by removing the red emergency lighting and keeping things mostly in darkness, so flashlights and marine chestplate lights, and ARC and MAC headlights, all have more impact on visibility in these areas.
The rest of the power node aspects remain pretty much the same as now -- aliens can attack them and cut the power, marines can repair them and get the power back on. It still may not be the perfect solution, but it addresses most of our concerns, while keeping the additional work to a minimum, and keeping the overall system still fairly simple and intuitive.
--Cory
Hives start with tons of infestation; that growth would cover the lights and make the area dark.