Quickpatch for Fade balance
dePARA
Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Dont know if 1.85 is going to be released this week, but please release an quickpatch for Fadebalance.
Actually we have 3 players on 39 Servers, wow. And im sure, this is cause the fade. It isnt really funny to play marines atm.
And no matter what marines do, it ends always in the same way.
I hear so many people who are tired of this. An no: You cant stop a fade with a flamer+sg combination. Maybe with luck or the Fade is new to the game. But you cant stop a skilled Fade with that.
And im talking of 1 Fade. What if 3 Fades on the field ?
So please, do something quick. Maybe the big and cool features could be released when they done. But till then:
Please, make the game a little bit playble again by changing some little variables for the fade.
Actually we have 3 players on 39 Servers, wow. And im sure, this is cause the fade. It isnt really funny to play marines atm.
And no matter what marines do, it ends always in the same way.
I hear so many people who are tired of this. An no: You cant stop a fade with a flamer+sg combination. Maybe with luck or the Fade is new to the game. But you cant stop a skilled Fade with that.
And im talking of 1 Fade. What if 3 Fades on the field ?
So please, do something quick. Maybe the big and cool features could be released when they done. But till then:
Please, make the game a little bit playble again by changing some little variables for the fade.
Comments
Count yourself lucky we get to play the game at all at this stage :)
Now I'm going to hate abit (just a tad bit) and say that some of the people that I have seen complain in game and this is from playing as a fade/marine and getting comments like "omg fades are OP", "oh look fades GG", etc. The majority (not all, just some) that complained either jump around like rabbits and don't shoot, run away hoping that they can outrun a fade or group up and let the almighty collision start busting its moves.
I agree the fade is abit to much on the OP side but not by alot its more the case of stupid annoying bugs and sh@# not working the way it should that ruins it most of the time if the 3 problems I mentioned above don't get fixed well I don't think this fade loosing 100 health is going to make it any better. (but then I suppose we might just wait and see then shall we?)
Oh yea Screenshot.
<img src="http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k559/SL4Y3Rftw/2011-08-11_00005.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
PS i also liked when the fade killed in 3 swipes and not 2 :)
the fade at its current state is actually pretty weak, and gimped class which can be easily killed with GROUP of marines, having good commander helping would be a plus. stop saying its OP, they really aren't.
I actually like to know what are the planned changes to the fade, and the current "fade balance" thing on the tracker mean. design log doesn't really say much but one word "fade". So more information is needed.
The marine needs at least 3 shotgun shots at close range point blanc and is not able to blink around to attack, avoid damage or retreat.
Gee, I wonder what causes the imbalance ;-)
And if you take away the fade what do the aliens have left? Not much tbh.
Currently:
- Pretty equal at Tier one I think, but open for discussion :-)
- Aliens pwn at Tier 2
- Marines pwn at Tier 3
And I've seen marines win alot more then the last patch. I'm not saying the fade isn't strong, he is, but then again he takes 50 res+ another 6 if you want him to have some upgrades, and a marine that kills one gets 30 res, while a fade gets 2(?) for killing a marine. Do the math.
And remember hes exelent in pvp, but hes veryyy bad in taking down structures (unlike ns1, where he could do both).
I would look for other reasons of empty servers:
- People finally got tired of playing Summit
- Less people want to command because of bugs
With 1.84 he get 2 little upgrades extra: invisible + 2 Swipes kill.
Small example of the "group can kill a fade theory":
Fade wait invisible in a corner. A group of 4 Marines (1 Flamer, 2 SG, 1 Rifle) come around.
Flamer died with 2 Swipes from behind in 2 sec. Small blink to the side of the 3 rines. 1st sg died also in 2 sec. They hit the fade "ouch". But Frency help to regain Health and Armor *nice*. Now the Fade start blinkspam. 2nd sg died in 2 sec also.
In that time that 4th Rine grab the Flamer and the Fade is on fire. But how, health isnt really going down. So the fade stop blinking, walk to the flamer and *surprise*, in 2 sec down.
The Screenshot below tells exact that.
So we have this scenario over an month. I think its enough.
Sure its beta. But i play a game to have fun ( beta, alpha, final,whatever) and this isnt fun anymore.
Also, that's a group of incompetent Marines, if they're tightly grouped enough and not checking all angles to be jumped like that. This isn't Counterstrike. Move tactically, cover lines of fire, keep your eyes open, talk to your teammates.
Marines' big advantage (RANGE!!) is completely nullified by idiots clumping up, all looking the same direction, and not yelling if they just got hit (for the six... anyone else should already be covered/warned/alerted by the gunfire of the teammate covering them) as they always seem to just before whining about how horrible the Fade is.
A group CAN kill a fade, and pretty easily. Just as a group of bouncing, gibbering crackmonkeys can be taken down by a good Fade.
Not all skill is based on how steady you can train crosshair markers on a target, or how well-timed your finger is on the fire button, or how well you abuse a bug in the game physics.
Fade wait invisible in a corner. A group of 4 Marines (1 Flamer, 2 SG, 1 Rifle) come around.
Flamer died with 2 Swipes from behind in 2 sec. Small blink to the side of the 3 rines. 1st sg died also in 2 sec. They hit the fade "ouch". But Frency help to regain Health and Armor *nice*. Now the Fade start blinkspam. 2nd sg died in 2 sec also.
In that time that 4th Rine grab the Flamer and the Fade is on fire. But how, health isnt really going down. So the fade stop blinking, walk to the flamer and *surprise*, in 2 sec down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much. Though, I don't think the fade is the only thing causing the playercount to drop. This is pretty much what happens after every patch. Everyone joins up and plays for 2-3 days, encounters serious bugs, exploits, or imbalances, then stop playing till the next patch, rinse and repeat. Once the novelty of the new features (shade) wears off, the fact that NS2 heavily favors aliens and frequently leads to 1+ hour stalemates makes it much less appealing to play.
Same here.
And yes, i know its still Beta, and that the Devs already have lots to do and that we should all be patient, and I agree, completely.
But in the mean time i'm taking a break from playing because marines currently need to hold 4 tech points in order to win, aliens only need 2.
+1 for Quick Fade Patch, if possible, please :)
I am starting to wonder when your last game was.
sounds to me that you didn't play 184 that much.
and besides,
+30 points are not 30 res.
A marine gets 1-3 res.. like a fade gets for a marine kill.
Also I want draw your attention to tha fact that a marine with a shotgun (20 p-res) and a marine with a flamethrower (30-p res) don't have a chance against a single fade (50 p-res) in b184.
In fact, I was the fade dePara described in his example, means that is no made-up story. I was really able to stop 5 marines with all upgrades (I guess) form entering heliport. And I was alone and I just had armor#2.
<!--quoteo(post=1869381:date=Aug 16 2011, 08:57 AM:name=GeneralBowser)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GeneralBowser @ Aug 16 2011, 08:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And remember hes exelent in pvp, but hes veryyy bad in taking down structures (unlike ns1, where he could do both).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just use weapon#2 and the fade is fine against structures.
------
The fade imbalance is just the peak of the imbalance-iceberg.
Another reason is the imbalanced need of rescources for structures.
Example:
Alien build order
1. Whip (10 res)
2. RT (10 res)
3. Researching Melee#1 (15 res)
4. RT (10 res)
5. crag or shift (10 res)
6. poss. evolvable upgrade (10 res)
5. new hive (50 res)
= 105 res until fade
(+ all melee/armor upgrades (135r), mature whip (10r), all evolvable upgrades (20r), crag/shift (10r)
= a total of 280 res to build everything and have all upgrades (pretending, that nothing gets destroyed))
Marine build order
1. IP (10 res)
2. Armory (10 res)
3. RT (10 res)
4. RT (10 res)
5. arms lab (20 res)
6. 2nd IP (10 res)
7. researching armor#1 (15 res)
8. researching shotgun (15 res)
9. armory upgrade (30 res)
10. researching flamer (20 res)
11. obs (10 res) (to be able to scan cloaked aliens)
12. robotics factory (20 res) (to be able to repair buildings)
= 180 res to be able to fight a fade (okay.. before build 184)
(+ all weapons&armor upgrades 135r, phase tech 15r, 2x phasegate 30r, powerpack 15r, mac 5r, GL 15r, Mac speed upgrade 5r., ARC 20r, turret 10r)
= a total of 430 res to build everything and have all upgrades (again pretending, that nothing gets destroyed)
And usually the aliens have more RTs then the marines.....
In addition the marines are not able to counter melee#1 or cloaking in the early game. because they have to build IP and amory first (before that you cant build an arms lab) and have to spend nearly all starting res (IP, armory, armslab + armor#1 = 45 .. but no res for RTs left)
And worst of all is that the obs doesn't even uncloak aliens passively... and the scan is broken (a scan doesn't reveal unbuild hives in b184. and sometime it reveals nothing)).
Okay, I am getting way off topic, but we have to face it, the game is pretty unbalanced.
(Disclaimer: this is not meant as a rant. It is just meant to be a listing of facts)
With 1.84 he get 2 little upgrades extra: invisible + 2 Swipes kill.
Small example of the "group can kill a fade theory":
Fade wait invisible in a corner. A group of 4 Marines (1 Flamer, 2 SG, 1 Rifle) come around.
Flamer died with 2 Swipes from behind in 2 sec. Small blink to the side of the 3 rines. 1st sg died also in 2 sec. They hit the fade "ouch". But Frency help to regain Health and Armor *nice*. Now the Fade start blinkspam. 2nd sg died in 2 sec also.
In that time that 4th Rine grab the Flamer and the Fade is on fire. But how, health isnt really going down. So the fade stop blinking, walk to the flamer and *surprise*, in 2 sec down.
The Screenshot below tells exact that.
So we have this scenario over an month. I think its enough.
Sure its beta. But i play a game to have fun ( beta, alpha, final,whatever) and this isnt fun anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Next time, ask the comm to scan an area before you venture into it. Also check to see if the entire room is clear before you pass the chokepoint. This is strategy 101 against hidden enemies.
you are right, BUT
in a public match you don't have the teamplay what is needed to kill a alien hive.
and if you are lucky enough to find some teamplayers in a public game, often they don't have enough skill to stand against melee#1 skulks with armor#0
And usually.. if the marines get armor#1 the 2nd hive is already matured.
(to be honest.. I have trouble too to defeat a melee#1 skulk without armor#1 in a 1vs1... most of the time in a 1vs1 the skulk manages to bite me 2 times until I kill him. )
That is right... <i>if</i> scan would work properly. But it doesn't.
Yesterday in a trainingsmatch the commander scanned heliport and saw nothing. "Heliport clear", he said. 30 seconds later, I walked into heliport by accident just to bump into a unbuild hive (75%), 2 hydras, a infestation line from crevice and a gorge...
Yesterday in a trainingsmatch the commander scanned heliport and saw nothing. "Heliport clear", he said. 30 seconds later, I walked into heliport by accident just to bump into a unbuild hive (75%), 2 hydras, a infestation line from crevice and a gorge...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no real counter to shades at the moment because their cloak trumps Observatory scan, so in the meantime the commander should get used to scanning hallways where shades aren't likely to be, but where fades can easily ambush from. Move shades up on your priority list of things to kill if you do get to a hive room; they have low HP and have to be placed in conspicuous areas, anyway.
But yeah, you've got to tough it out.
1) Fix the issue where the fade can get a swipe on a marine before the marine sees the fade come out of blink. Either let the fade be damagable while blinking or add a short delay before being able to attack after exiting blink.
2) Reduce Fade health to 250 (from 300).
Done.
That being said, I win games as marine pretty much by myself fairly often. Just rambo into the hive with a shotgun, kill all the eggs, wait for the other aliens to die, kill hive. GG. But once the 2nd hive goes up, marines won't win unless the aliens simply give up out of boredom because of the turret spam.
A blink to attack delay is going to make him feel non-responsive, and will cause agro from new players especially.
A shotgun buff will cause other aliens to get clobbered too hard. (Same goes for the flamer).
A health decrease is going to make him die too quickly. Though I think 300->250 would be survivable.
Perhaps the problem is not that the fade is too powerful, its that the opportunity cost of going fade is too low. That is, if the aliens are capable of getting 3 fades in a 9v9, then they're not spending enough resources on other stuff. 'Other Stuff' can be Lerks, Gorges, Hydras, and upgrades. So perhaps when the Lerk becomes more powerful, the Gorge becomes more crucial, and upgrade choices become more plentiful, we will see less Fades on the field.
Ideally, I think the Fade should remain incredibly bad-ass. Aliens should just be punished for saving too much res for him.
Care to share what that is? The design document has a spot for it, but it was never filled in. Looking forward to it regardless.
"Dear diary,
Fade.
That is all."
I doubt that you played a few matches in b184. the fade is not just a bad ass warrior in this build, he is, due to that blink/attack bug, simply overpowered.
I saw fades ripping whole groups of marines apart, armed with all kinds of weapons with most/all upgrades. and those fades mention that they normally arent good in that game at all. even they admit that something must be imbalanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1869419:date=Aug 16 2011, 01:58 PM:name=kaffaljidhma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kaffaljidhma @ Aug 16 2011, 01:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Next time, ask the comm to scan an area before you venture into it. Also check to see if the entire room is clear before you pass the chokepoint. This is strategy 101 against hidden enemies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would agree with you here, but again: i dont think you played some matches in b184 as a commander. scan does work sometimes, yes. but mostly it does not work. I know that some of you facepalm, because the answer to that is obvious => The shade hides structures. True. But in that training match, Shilorius mentioned, they do had a crag hive and the second hive wasnt done, so they cant have had a shade. So nothing that could have hidden that hive.
I do scan in b184, but to reveal a hive, i send secondly a marine to that tech point, just to be sure.
My hopes for b185 are not high :)
- "Swipe during blink(invis)" bug solved
- Fade doesnt need a health reduce => 3 swipes for a "Armor 3 Marine", let the second swipe remain him at 10hp, so skulks are more then welcome in those fights with parasite and bites.
- A working observatory. its ok when a shade hides structures and units even though the area got scanned, but its obviously not working correctly right now!
- ns2_mineshaft *cough**cough*
I wonder how the statistics might be if you would only change those 4 things.
Actually i didnt want to write on this as well as all the others, especially because Charlie already stated that they are working on the whole fade balancing thing, but i couldnt sleep :D Sorry for that. Just my two cents.
Greetz Trainee
So, get 3-4 marines and insta kill him?
<!--quoteo(post=1869385:date=Aug 16 2011, 06:09 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Aug 16 2011, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Fade was OP in 1.83.
With 1.84 he get 2 little upgrades extra: invisible + 2 Swipes kill.
Small example of the "group can kill a fade theory":
Fade wait invisible in a corner. A group of 4 Marines (1 Flamer, 2 SG, 1 Rifle) come around.
Flamer died with 2 Swipes from behind in 2 sec. Small blink to the side of the 3 rines. 1st sg died also in 2 sec. They hit the fade "ouch". But Frency help to regain Health and Armor *nice*. Now the Fade start blinkspam. 2nd sg died in 2 sec also.
In that time that 4th Rine grab the Flamer and the Fade is on fire. But how, health isnt really going down. So the fade stop blinking, walk to the flamer and *surprise*, in 2 sec down.
The Screenshot below tells exact that.
So we have this scenario over an month. I think its enough.
Sure its beta. But i play a game to have fun ( beta, alpha, final,whatever) and this isnt fun anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, the marines are simply bad...
They seemed to have plenty of times to slug it with shotgun shells and a fade don't survive that for any prolonged time.
also the energy required for the fade to do that means that most fades would have to wait and regen some in the middle of the fight, unless you are good and hit almost all your attacks.
If the flamer wouldn't gotten himself killed first it would be even easier, you just have to make sure the flamer is in the middle of the group to make it harder to pick him off.
If the fade is alone this might work.
But if you need 3-4 marines to kill a single fade.. just imagine the fade has his 2-3 fade-buddies with him...
<!--quoteo(post=1869481:date=Aug 16 2011, 03:13 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 16 2011, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869481"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We'll be releasing the new Fade balance soon, probably by the end of the week.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
awesome! looking forward to it :-)
The marine weapon vs. alien weapon design has a core structure of aliens being good against single targets and marines being good against multiple targets. This means that increasing the number of marines in an area increases firepower much more than increasing the number of aliens in an area. If you faced 100 marines against 100 fades, the marines would win, provided that they all have a good line of sight.
This is because marines can attack without risk of damage and they can attack multiple targets. If I have a flamethrower, for instance, it doesn't really matter whether I'm facing off 1 fade or 2. I'll do double the damage I would have if it was 1v1; I'll just get killed faster. The same goes for grenade launchers, and to a lesser extent, rifles and shotguns.
So you shouldn't scale the number of aliens in the same way as a number of marines. If 1 fade = 3 marines, then 3 fades < 9 marines. Grouping fades together is a case of diminishing returns and is a waste of player resources. Aliens should spread out, and marines should stick together.
But if you need 3-4 marines to kill a single fade.. just imagine the fade has his 2-3 fade-buddies with him...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
then the marines will have to shoot 2-3 shots extra each. if you aim for the same fade and light 'em all on fire it should take about 6 skilled marines to get 4 fades without too much problems.
If all the marines try and take a fade each you will need more..
A active commander can also help out a lot.
At the end of this wek. the Fadeproblem is history hopefully.
Till then, feel free to visit our server (HBZ) with 6 skilled people and you can show me how "easy" it is to kill a group of fades.
Sorry, i think, we dont play the same game.
Till then, feel free to visit our server (HBZ) with 6 skilled people and you can show me how "easy" it is to kill a group of fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying the fade isn't slightly on the OP side, it's just that some ppl whine a lot and blow it out of proportion. also I never said "easy", but definitely doable.
<!--quoteo(post=1869570:date=Aug 17 2011, 10:59 AM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Aug 17 2011, 10:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, i think, we dont play the same game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
at least not with the same ppl.