Why balance an unfinished game?

JonacrabJonacrab Join Date: 2003-08-02 Member: 18705Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
<div class="IPBDescription">Updates need content. Not balance.</div>To get straight to the point, where are onos? where are the next 2 chambers? where are the next hive abilities? It seems to me that build 180 was almost purely related to balancing an unfinished game. Why?? It took 2 weeks to try to balance a game that will not even resemble the current build when its complete... and for what? I really think the devs should reconsider their position and make adding content, not balance a priority. The balance will come later... dealing with res costs and damage is just making a very very slow development process even slower. To me it feels like the last two weeks from a development standpoint were wasted.... just my 2 cents.
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Comments

  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    Shot in the dark here, but if the game balance breaks too hard, I don't think people will want to keep beta/bug-testing it any more.

    Even if some people do, there won't be as many by a long shot.
  • AezayAezay Join Date: 2003-04-19 Member: 15660Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1859209:date=Jul 10 2011, 01:00 AM:name=Jonacrab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jonacrab @ Jul 10 2011, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To me it feels like the last two weeks from a development standpoint were wasted.... just my 2 cents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm interested in knowing what makes you such a specialist in game development? It honestly just seems like you are speaking without even thinking first.

    There are several people working on this game, and they cannot all be working on implementing one feature, that you so desperately want now! They all have certain specialties, and you will see that there has been many changes done, in various categories if you would just read the changelog.
    This game is also tech/tier based, so it does make some sense to balance each tier of tech against each other.

    Would be kinda fun asking the art guy to implement the Onos code into the game though, just to see what would come out of that.
  • TravCarpTravCarp Join Date: 2010-06-04 Member: 71962Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Because they can and they like to have a balanced beta for their members, which find bugs for them? It's not hard to change variables if you did it right. 8-)
  • Dank McShwaggerDank McShwagger Join Date: 2009-06-10 Member: 67784Members
    The devs responded to this question in another thread.

    I can't find the thread but the jist of the answer was as such:
    It's easy to make balancing changes such as cost/damage/speed increase/reduction. It's a simple matter of changing variables. The balancing is not what takes up their time. The debugging/optimizing is what's taking up their time, and if you have been playing the "beta" you would know there's a lot of work to be done in that area.

    I agree that the lack of content at this point is getting a little disturbing but it's not because they are wasting time balancing the beta. As the previous poster put it, beta or full version, if it's not balanced there's no point in playing.

    ...and yes, I agree it's time we see some more end game content.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Well alongside changing a few value there is of course play testing involved and doing stuff with the feedback from that. But this doesn't eat away at content creation time, I mean adding stuff and balancing them by changing said values is kinda what Charlie does right, so it ain't all that much more tasking on the fellow.

    WHAT DOES TAKE AWAY TIME THOUGH!!!

    Charlie has been spotted going to candy mountain A LOT as of late!
  • eisigereisiger Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75159Members
    It's funny because his name is Charlie, who also has a 1600x900 monitor.
  • JonacrabJonacrab Join Date: 2003-08-02 Member: 18705Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
    It just feels like they could start adding things like a new chamber, or a new ability each patch... if onos arent ready thats understandable. But this patch just felt like it only addressed the complaints about the balance in build 179...
  • LazerLazer Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14406Members, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    Wow seriously? Didn't pustules just get added?
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1859221:date=Jul 9 2011, 11:50 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jul 9 2011, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow seriously? Didn't pustules just get added?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Nope, Cysts were though :P
  • Lemming JesusLemming Jesus Join Date: 2010-04-13 Member: 71385Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1859214:date=Jul 9 2011, 05:22 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jul 9 2011, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shot in the dark here, but if the game balance breaks too hard, I don't think people will want to keep beta/bug-testing it any more.

    Even if some people do, there won't be as many by a long shot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Huh? People won't to play test new never before seen things? What crazy backwards world are you in?
  • GomezieGomezie Join Date: 2009-05-29 Member: 67534Members
    I think you need to go and read the patch notes again... plenty of things were added!

    Also the way you are describing the game is if it was a finished, on the shelf product.. this is most definately not the case, so why point it out?
  • BamBam!BamBam! Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104527Members
    When the final retail version is released it would be nice to have an 'early to mid game' that is well balanced and competitive for both teams. The process of trying to balance these early game factors once the addition of late game variables have been introduced (think onos, jetpack, HA and miniguns or whatever they are planning) would be incredibly complex and inefficient. The devs know what they are doing and since it clearly said 'NS2 BETA' when you clicked on complete transaction don't go expecting a complete game. Keep your 2 cents and enjoy the ride! I know I am
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1859218:date=Jul 9 2011, 04:39 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jul 9 2011, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie has been spotted going to candy mountain A LOT as of late!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I hear you program better without kidneys.
  • OutlawDrOutlawDr Join Date: 2009-06-21 Member: 67887Members
    edited July 2011
    As others have pointed out, balance tweaks are easy to do. Creating and adding content is much harder. Im sure most of the devs don't even deal with balance. In fact I suspect that balance is somewhere at the bottom in the list of priorities right now. I think most of the balance they implement is more for our sake. It is so we have a (somewhat) enjoyable game to play while we wait for the completion and implementation of all content. Let the dedicated playtesters do the hard job of doing most of the technical side of beta testing. They want the rest of us to play something that resembles the final game. We essentially 'stress test', and find things the playtesters didn't.
  • LazerLazer Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14406Members, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    <!--quoteo(post=1859222:date=Jul 9 2011, 05:51 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jul 9 2011, 05:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nope, Cysts were though :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    For the sake of correcting incorrect corrections, alien comms place pustules, gorges place the cysts :)
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1859242:date=Jul 10 2011, 01:49 AM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jul 10 2011, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the sake of correcting incorrect corrections, alien comms place pustules, gorges place the cysts :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    For the sake of admitting I stand corrected, I hereby stand corrected good sir!
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    edited July 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1859224:date=Jul 9 2011, 06:59 PM:name=Lemming Jesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lemming Jesus @ Jul 9 2011, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859224"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huh? People won't to play test new never before seen things? What crazy backwards world are you in?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Be honest. How often would you play NS2 if Marines did 1/10th of the damage they do now with all their weapons, sentries, ARCs, etc., everything else about the game was kept constant, and UWE said they had no intent on changing it for a long long time? The same question for Kharaa.

    Additionally, how easily do you think you would be able to find opponents or teammates if that were the case?

    Balance keeps the game fun, which motivates people who might otherwise not play as much (or at all for the less-motivated players). As I said, there would probably still be some hardcore fans playtesting the game even in the face of gamebreaking balance issues caused by a complete lack of concern from developers, but the number would almost certainly be lower than the number of current players, by a lot.

    UWE keeps taking the small amounts of time required to balance NS2's Beta, we keep having fun, they keep hold of a large bugtesting userbase whose loyalty and dedication increase as the process continues, and I for one am glad they do.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1859243:date=Jul 10 2011, 09:51 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jul 10 2011, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the sake of admitting I stand corrected, I hereby stand corrected good sir!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I was under the impression that they're both called cysts, but the gorge versions are informally mini-cysts.
  • MagnetoMagneto Join Date: 2010-12-22 Member: 75856Members
    They are adding plenty of small and important improvements, it's just that most aren't obvious to the player, i do think though we need to start seeing a little more visible content every other patch at least but i think the main issue here is the lack of maps and map rotation on servers, remember if it wasn't for a great mapper in the community we would still be stuck playing the same two small maps which we've had since the beginning, new environments would help keep the game fresh.

    If we had an automatic map download system in place we could start playing all the community maps that are coming, at the moment even if they are released hardly anyone would download and play them.
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    There's no way of pleasing everyone.

    <i>"Don't add new content, fix performance first!"</i>

    <i>"I want new content, why is there only stupid server stuff in this patch, where's the onos?"</i>

    <i>"This patch is totally unbalanced, how am I supposed to test if the game is this unbalanced?"</i>

    <i>"Wow only balance fixes in this patch, what a waste of time!"</i>
  • ShiloriusShilorius Join Date: 2011-01-14 Member: 77445Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1859416:date=Jul 10 2011, 05:55 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jul 10 2011, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's no way of pleasing everyone.

    <i>"Don't add new content, fix performance first!"</i>

    <i>"I want new content, why is there only stupid server stuff in this patch, where's the onos?"</i>

    <i>"This patch is totally unbalanced, how am I supposed to test if the game is this unbalanced?"</i>

    <i>"Wow only balance fixes in this patch, what a waste of time!"</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    this!
    complainers will complain, no matter what you do. Especially in the internet, approval and praise is a scarce good.
    As I said before, a satisfied customer tells maybe 5 friends that he is satisfied.
    An unhappy customer says more than 1000 words - he won't stop complaining and even tells his neighbours dog that XY sucks hard.

    In my opinion uwe is on the right way.
    And it became sort of a rule, that after every <i>good</i> build follows a <i>crude</i> one and the other way round.

    It's like with windows ;-)

    (Edit: spelling)
  • Cyberwarrior00785Cyberwarrior00785 Join Date: 2010-02-20 Member: 70651Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1859416:date=Jul 10 2011, 04:55 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jul 10 2011, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's no way of pleasing everyone.

    <i>"Don't add new content, fix performance first!"</i>

    <i>"I want new content, why is there only stupid server stuff in this patch, where's the onos?"</i>

    <i>"This patch is totally unbalanced, how am I supposed to test if the game is this unbalanced?"</i>

    <i>"Wow only balance fixes in this patch, what a waste of time!"</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    <!--quoteo(post=1859421:date=Jul 10 2011, 05:25 AM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Jul 10 2011, 05:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this!
    complainers will complain, no matter what you do. Especially in the internet approval and praise is a scarce good.
    As I sayd before, a satisfied customer tells maybe 5 friends that he is satisfied.
    An unhappy customer says more than 1000 words - he won't stop complaining and even tell his neighbours dog that XY sucks hard.

    In my opinion uwe is on the right way.
    And it became sort of a rule that after every <i>good</i> build follows a <i>crude</i> one and the other way round.

    It's like with windows ;-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    agreed
  • TwiggehTwiggeh Join Date: 2010-09-24 Member: 74165Members
    The game needs to be (somewhat) balanced through beta, or else nobody would want to play it (except for the really hardcore fans).
  • JonacrabJonacrab Join Date: 2003-08-02 Member: 18705Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
    First off, i'll apologize for starting this thread off so critical, it was a kneejerk reaction to the current patch. That being said, I still believe that attempting to balance infestation with pustules was a step in the wrong direction. It seems like a waste of time considering all the content that still needs to be put in that will change the gameplay in unforeseeable ways. Infestation as it was, was not really over powered, without 4 hives it was really hard to infest the map. It just feels like there could have been greater problems tackled than adding a new system that currently is very bugged, and very debilitating to aliens, and could have easily been pushed back to a later time.
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1859488:date=Jul 10 2011, 01:23 PM:name=Jonacrab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jonacrab @ Jul 10 2011, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, i'll apologize for starting this thread off so critical, it was a kneejerk reaction to the current patch. That being said, I still believe that attempting to balance infestation with pustules was a step in the wrong direction. It seems like a waste of time considering all the content that still needs to be put in that will change the gameplay in unforeseeable ways. Infestation as it was, was not really over powered, without 4 hives it was really hard to infest the map. It just feels like there could have been greater problems tackled than adding a new system that currently is very bugged, and very debilitating to aliens, and could have easily been pushed back to a later time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So now you've gone from "why are they bothering with balance changes" to "why are they added new features that change the balance when instead they should add different new features that change the balance." The pustules are added because, like the Onos or the Jetpack or anything else that will be added, they're part of NS2. Sure, they were added to change the game balance, but that's what any other feature is gong to do also.
  • JonacrabJonacrab Join Date: 2003-08-02 Member: 18705Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
    All that Im saying is that there is no reason to replace a working system, knowing that there are other systems that need to be added. 179's version of infestation worked fine, had a few small bugs but functioned fine in gameplay. Being that this is a beta, there was no need to replace the system with pustules for the sake of game balance. Now they had to spend time implementing and bug testing the new system, instead of moving on to other issues. Flamethrowers were the intended resolution to infestation, and now, since pustules can be killed with anything, flamethrowers are losing some of their viability. So pustules was not an intended feature of NS2, rather a reaction to a small balance issue. So, Im saying that in a beta, it would be better to have a functional model of a working system, then add the next system, rather than trying to fine tune one system that we have no idea how well it will work when all systems have been added to the game. A waste of time. 179's infestation worked fine, and didnt need a retooling.
  • UzrbitalUzrbital Join Date: 2011-07-04 Member: 107858Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Balance the content they add as they add it. 8)
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    edited July 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1859508:date=Jul 10 2011, 02:18 PM:name=Jonacrab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jonacrab @ Jul 10 2011, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All that Im saying is that there is no reason to replace a working system, knowing that there are other systems that need to be added. 179's version of infestation worked fine, had a few small bugs but functioned fine in gameplay. Being that this is a beta, there was no need to replace the system with pustules for the sake of game balance. Now they had to spend time implementing and bug testing the new system, instead of moving on to other issues. Flamethrowers were the intended resolution to infestation, and now, since pustules can be killed with anything, flamethrowers are losing some of their viability. So pustules was not an intended feature of NS2, rather a reaction to a small balance issue. So, Im saying that in a beta, it would be better to have a functional model of a working system, then add the next system, rather than trying to fine tune one system that we have no idea how well it will work when all systems have been added to the game. A waste of time. 179's infestation worked fine, and didnt need a retooling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So UWE should just release build 179 as the final product and stop trying new things?

    This is the Beta. It is a testing ground for UWE's ideas and a scouting ground for their bugs and flaws. Cysts, Impact slowdown, ARCs costing team res: these are all new ideas that UWE wants to study in action. If you don't want to test new content, you're in the wrong place.
  • JonacrabJonacrab Join Date: 2003-08-02 Member: 18705Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
    Ill give a hypothetical situation: Say fades are horribly underpowered(as they are now) so you focus on that, and try to adjust his stats, and fix things that way. Eventually you tweak him just right. However, you find out later, that as soon as you added movement chambers, you fixed the situation. So basically everything you did between there was a complete waste(yes I know that adjusting the stats is a minor adjustment, Im generalizing). We know that there are 2 more chambers, a number of new abilities, onos, jetpacks and HA still to come(some of that is up in the air still, and could be cut, but certainly the chambers, abilities, and onos are going to be in the final) So why not make getting a working version of those things in the game before you start looking specifically at balance issues. Would save alot of scrapped content. Im not saying dont investigate new ideas, but investigate them when you have all the basic systems that will definitely make the final, working in the game, and chambers and abilities are glaringly missing at this point.

    To give a different example: I am an artist, and when approaching a painting, I start with some kind of outline that represents the idea I have in my head. Then I start working with a general color scheme, start slowly adding in the detail, but never getting too specific too early, because I know that I have to paint in steps, if I start getting too specific on one section of the painting, I could end up repainting that section because it doesnt fit the whole.

    In my opinion, I think it would have been a better approach to start by making the game identical to NS1, then adding the new content and seeing how it fit in. They did spend years balancing NS1 after all... it would have been a great starting point.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    edited July 2011
    What's your definition of underpowered?
    Is it that a fade is not able to take out 4 marines by himself? (unreasonable - a fade should not have that much power or survivability, nor any other unit in the game)
    Or that a fade doesn't have enough energy due to flamethrowers? (reasonable - the fade should not be so restricted just because marines have researched the fade's kryptonite)
    Well that's not actually the fade being underpowered, that's the flamethrower being overpowered.

    Anyway, if UWE does follow your advice and decide to change their approach by only "finishing the game without balancing along the way", then that means that for the <u>foreseeable</u> future, the fade will remain horribly underpowered. Are you okay with this? <i>I am.</i> I <b>would</b> rather that they finish the game without balancing along the way.
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