<!--quoteo(post=1856230:date=Jun 25 2011, 12:30 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 25 2011, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh sure! I win games with turrets too. Turrets don't equal automatic loss!
But that also doesn't mean they're still worthless.
The best part is? I remember around the time NS2 was announced (probably a few months later) Flayra was talking about the role of sentries in NS2. My buddy had an a huge fit since every decent NS1 player knows turrets were awful. I tried to explain to him that NS2 would be a different game and trying to complain about something without any context was futile.
Boy was I wrong! Not only is NS2 EXTREMELY similar to NS1, turrets are probably even MORE worthless. And the poorly-skilled community is just as delusional!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the community doesn't agree with an opinion, that doesn't mean they're poorly skilled. It's like saying pug matches are a good judge of player talent.
After reading some more of your thoughts I'm beginning to understand why you feel the way you do, however I feel like they are still necessary in some games. The turret farms are a waste of res if it's early in the game, but it's not realistic to get rid of turrets in pug matches imho.
So I don't have to search through the thread again, how do you suggest they 'rework' the turrets? No flaming intended in that question.
<!--quoteo(post=1856599:date=Jun 26 2011, 07:57 PM:name=Enhance89)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enhance89 @ Jun 26 2011, 07:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the community doesn't agree with an opinion, that doesn't mean they're poorly skilled. It's like saying pug matches are a good judge of player talent.
After reading some more of your thoughts I'm beginning to understand why you feel the way you do, however I feel like they are still necessary in some games. The turret farms are a waste of res if it's early in the game, but it's not realistic to get rid of turrets in pug matches imho.
So I don't have to search through the thread again, how do you suggest they 'rework' the turrets? No flaming intended in that question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly I have absolutely no idea what could be done. One thing I'd like to point out that currently at a certain point there is nothing else to spend res on other than turrets, and it's actually okay to drop them, but only then.
The issue is that marines are attacking and aliens are defending, so having a stationary defense not only sucks up your res, but weakens your attackers too (due to lack of tech). So there are two options here:
1. Change the flow of the game somehow to make expansions far more important for marines (as much as it is for aliens), thus placing more of an importance on defending locations. 2. Change sentries to somehow be much more mobile (which isn't a fun option IMO since killing AI controlled stuff isn't fun for ANYONE). 3. Remove sentries from the game since the very large majority of commanders don't really understand the flow of the game yet, and will continue dropping sentries pretty much constantly regardless of what's done to them.
Seeing as how the game probably isn't going to change significantly, I THINK we can safely assume that sentries either need to be totally reworked or removed. Of course I can't predict any changes Flayra/UWE is going to make, but right now the game has largely devolved into NS 1.04.
I know there's some pretty decent discussion going on here, but I feel that I'm going to need to start reminding the community that <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113993" target="_blank">NS2 isn't complete</a>. I see a pattern every time new content is introduced and it always revolves around balance issues. Please be mindful of the fact that the game isn't fully featured yet.
Alright, I've tried going back to the start of this thread and read the whole thing again, and now my brain is full of soft, squidgy goo.
An apt summary appears to be: Sentries are slightly unbalanced right now, like most other elements of the game, and that is to be expected at this stage of the beta. This discussion appears to have created a mountain out of a molehill. I'm sure the team will continue to tinker with sentries, as they have since the Alpha. I look forward to seeing more iterations, I'm sure many will be drawn from this thread.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1856614:date=Jun 26 2011, 08:04 PM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Jun 26 2011, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alright, I've tried going back to the start of this thread and read the whole thing again, and now my brain is full of soft, squidgy goo.
An apt summary appears to be: Sentries are slightly unbalanced right now, like most other elements of the game, and that is to be expected at this stage of the beta. This discussion appears to have created a mountain out of a molehill. I'm sure the team will continue to tinker with sentries, as they have since the Alpha. I look forward to seeing more iterations, I'm sure many will be drawn from this thread.
Much of the problem is that we are arguing based on anecdotes rather than data. My personal experience is that much of the finer points of balance (skulk v LMG, fade v shotgun, sentries, hydras, etc.) are overshadowed by the lag and vast differences in player skill, such that two players can come to drastically different interpretations of balance. Hopefully, with the new data logging in B180+, we can compare the various explanations and anecdotes with data to see which ones better fit reality.
I think the problem is that sentries, can be useful, but they arn't fun to play with or play against. I feel like on the current design course, they are destined to end up like ns1 turrets, very rarely used (at least in competitive play)
Might be interesting if they were made exhaustible, so they were much more powerful, and cheaper and cost Pres, but only fired like 200 bullets or something. It would be interesting if they didn't require power, or only ran for a certain amount of time if underpowered. You can imagine marines pushing up, and the comm quickly dropping a few turrets to cover marines while they build a phase gate, or take down a node. If done this way the trade off, is meds and ammo vs sentries. I think it would be a lot more interesting this way.
They function identically, the difference is they just spontaneously die after a while so you don't see very many of them on the map at once.
Also it only makes them 'dynamic' in the sense you have to keep replacing them. If a position continues to need defending, you would replace the sentries there, if it doesn't, then in the current system, aliens wouldn't be encountering sentries.
But interestingly with your system, you could move your sentries with your marines, so both marines and aliens have to deal with them constantly, if sentries aren't fun, I don't see how this is an improvement.
I don't have a solution other than to take them out of the game for a bit to at the very least see how the game plays without them. I'd change whips too and make the hydra hitbox much bigger so it's easier to kill.
It's kind of sad that so many people misunderstood what Veritas is trying to say. As an alien, I'm very happy to see sentries early game because it basically means the big bad mean tech will be delayed and every resource tower that gets destroyed is even more a pain for them since their resources are already spent so thin.
However, as a marine, I can hardly see how you can hold a huge chunk of territory without using them in the current state of the game. Sure, not 30 seconds into a game, especially how useful shotguns are and how trying to ambush anyone as skulk is pretty much useless if said marine just looks at the mini-map. But although they've made a lot of improvements to playability recently (and I'm very glad for that, I really can enjoy most games since B178), you seriously can't expect your inexperienced marines to 1) kill anything 2) navigate phase gates promptly 3) be aware of what's actually going on with the lag spikes, choppiness and global chaos that rise throughout the game. Sure, grab 5 of your buddies and play against a team of random aliens and you probably won't have to build a single turret, but no matter how awful you find them, I think they do accomplish something (not that it means it's any good, but hey, that's where I say "it's beta, man!") for a less than optimal team.
I was going to say that people with little RTS background may be prone to spamming more turrets etc. etc., but the more I think of it, the more I find it doesn't matter, simply because avid RTS players would probably get so annoyed that they actually can't control / predict their units' movement and decision making, so they'd want to make sure and point X and Y are safe etc. However, it's clear that with more experience in resources management and such, you make wiser decisions as a commander and thus don't spam turrets 30 seconds into the game. So how do commanders get wiser? Well they learn. They play games and see what's worth doing and what's not. The only thing is that on the field, it's people like me, you, Veritas, and everyone who posted here that has to cope with that learning phase. I don't mind it, I knew it was bound to happen and I know it'll go on for quite a while. Just like back in NS 1.0. I actually like to see people learn (maybe just because that's actually my profession), and so I don't mind pointing out mistakes/possible improvements to comms. The worst thing one can do though is just to yell a them, which is the Way Of The Internet, I know.
So yeah, if someone thinks it can be done, then hey, just hop into the comm chair and show those marines you can win without using turrets / using them wisely. They'll learn from you. Heck, even record it and show it to us here! But I feel players are not ready / able to do that just yet.
tl;dr: Turrets do slow down marines early game, but they are too often needed to try and compensate for lack of cohesion / awareness / responsiveness in the team. Removing turrets serves no purpose to my eyes; people need to learn, and to learn, they need to play, not have people bashing them at every turn.
<!--quoteo(post=1856643:date=Jun 27 2011, 05:58 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 27 2011, 05:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have a solution other than to take them out of the game for a bit to at the very least see how the game plays without them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Turrets didn't work in Alpha at a point where hydras did. Performance was amazingly terrible, yes. However one thing was noted, 1 gorge + 2 skulks = hydra base spam = game win = op.
I don't think this is making a mountain out of a molehill at all NS2HD.
The problem with NS1 (and NS2) is that the level of team skill tends to dictate how fun the match is.
I've never played a game that can be so satisfying, but a lot of the time completely frustrating because of incompetent players. You can even have awesome games where you lose, but only if you feel like the whole team has done all they can.
Also, something is fundamentally broken (imo) when you play 2 different types of game in publics and clan matches, where apparently sentries are so useless that no one bothers with them.
Does that not strike anyone as odd?
All the weapons have a role, but the buildings don't?
Like I have stated. Sentry farms are bad for game play, cause stalemates, are boring to take down, they also have no place in clan matches.
The reason they are required is that aliens can dominate the map with their speed, and an individual alien can cause huge problems - which means you can't rely on any static defence against any SOLO alien.
This is particularly evident in public play, where INDIVIDUAL aliens can all pick off sentries at leisure. Which means that once Marines are spread out across an entire map, it is very hard to push the last hive because the back defences are being taken down. With the possibility of hives going up.
So in turn you are required to spam turrets.
So why not address that problem by saying 'well maybe it requires 2 aliens to use some sort of 'joint' skill to take down individual but POWERFUL sentries'. That are more expensive, much more powerful, and have a tactical and strategic role.
So that in essence you require:
More than one alien. (Forces players to work together, but also you don't have trouble all over the map, all of the time)
Aliens to be in the same place at the same time. (It will require more effort to get both aliens to the same point at the same time)
I don't have the answer to what that could be. Perhaps one alien fires something onto the floor, that the sentries fire at so the other can get behind them.
Maybe they can disable sentries temporarily somehow.
Why can't turrets be changed to using the commanders PRes? This would allow the TRes to be spent on marine upgrades and commander units would come out of his pool. This would effectively cut down on sentry spam and make the commander base his spending between health and ammo packs, MACS, ARCS and turrets. This way he can spend early game PRes on a few turrets and ammo/health packs. Later on in the game, he can spend it on ARCS instead of turrets.
<!--quoteo(post=1856659:date=Jun 26 2011, 11:51 PM:name=gigasmack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gigasmack @ Jun 26 2011, 11:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why can't turrets be changed to using the commanders PRes? This would allow the TRes to be spent on marine upgrades and commander units would come out of his pool. This would effectively cut down on sentry spam and make the commander base his spending between health and ammo packs, MACS, ARCS and turrets. This way he can spend early game PRes on a few turrets and ammo/health packs. Later on in the game, he can spend it on ARCS instead of turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, but i think there needs to be a specific building for sentries that also includes upgrades like automatic 360 degree turning, etc. But i also agree with NS2HD that its still in beta and eventually it will find a purpose in NS2 and will eventually be perfected, in till then just wait and see what future builds brings.
And i remember you TrueVeritas I've played with you twice now and you are one hell of a good marine player PS: i agree with you that "Dr f en enstien is a retard
<!--quoteo(post=1856659:date=Jun 27 2011, 03:51 AM:name=gigasmack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gigasmack @ Jun 27 2011, 03:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why can't turrets be changed to using the commanders PRes? This would allow the TRes to be spent on marine upgrades and commander units would come out of his pool. This would effectively cut down on sentry spam and make the commander base his spending between health and ammo packs, MACS, ARCS and turrets. This way he can spend early game PRes on a few turrets and ammo/health packs. Later on in the game, he can spend it on ARCS instead of turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MAC and ARC are changed to Tres in the next Build.
Well placed sentrys (long hallways are not good!) near eachoter and 1 Sentry facing atlwast 2 other 1 and using the change direction Button makes 4 Sentrys hard to kill. Only thing that really hurts even well placed sentrys are Biliebombs!
One thing tgat I would change to the Sentrys is that they should use the Normal Danagetype and not Light Damagetype!
I was playing on a server today with a few lads, had a great team. I actually really enjoyed the game, even though we lost.
The problem was not because we played badly. We worked together, and Fades were taken down very quickly.
Actually, I think we took down about 4 fades within a few minutes of each other at one point.
But the commander, even though great and that we dominated the early game with phase gates (moving into a position to take alien start), just did not bother with sentries. We even took down their hive at alien start, but unfortunately they had surface access.
But we lost because Marines once spread out leave themselves INCREDIBLY open. I just don't see how you can have EVEN 20 - 30 minutes game, when basically any Lerk or Fade or a Skulk that works itself into a good position can completely rip apart defences on its own.
Instead you have to build each base up, fill it with sentries and then move to the next room.
Damage based balance will not work, and we will have the same problems we had in NS1. With sentries just being flawed in implementation.
Sentries should be great against individual aliens, but rubbish against aliens working together. That way, Marine advancement can happen without any alien evolving to Lerk or just getting in the right position to take out sentries.
This slows the game, annoys everyone because of spam and becomes quite boring.
Drop like 3 or 4 sentries and a phase gate. If the base gets attacked, tell your marines to go kill whatever's attacking it. Make sure to drop phase gates regularly so that your marines can respond to threats and get back to the fight.
You cannot tell me that a single alien can kill an entire base before the marines can react, they simply do not posess that kind of dps. They can at best kill an armory or something else trivial. Or even a turret, which is what turrets are for, to be killed rather than your other buildings.
Also if you use sentries to support attacks, which you should, you also end up with a nice bunch of them scattered around the map at your various outposts, which is great for slowing alien movement and distracting them.
Your primary units are and should always be marines, turrets cannot and should not be able to hold out against aliens on their own, they buy valuable time and provide valuable fire support, but do not win fights on their own. Marines are just as powerful against alien defences if the aliens don't react. A few marines with the usual equipment of a GL and an arc and some armory support can clear out a hive in a matter of minutes. A few aliens can do the same to marine bases.
It's your response time that is the difficulty, marines have pretty poor response time by default, as commander you need to work to rectify this, that's why you capture bases in the first place, everything you do as marine commander is about maximising responsiveness for your marines, you establish phase networks, build redundant IPs, build bases and turrets in order to delay aliens, and generally make sure your marines can react to aliens. Aliens have an advantage in that they are far more mobile than marines so if marines attack an alien hive, it's very rare that aliens won't start defending it. Marines on the other hand do not have automatic spawning in their bases, they can't move around the map as fast without phase gates, and they spend a lot less time skirmishing and running around on their own and so are less likely to be in the area. You absolutely need to capitalise on phase gates to move your entire team at once, and sentries/bases to give them time in which to move.
Apart from the fact that over time structures are worn down, and because repairing them is a nightmare you get to a critical point whereby buildings start going down.
We had Phase Gates all over the map, we even had sentries once the comm decided to start placing them down.
But once marines are spread out, it takes time to react to these things. Often sentries go down without people really realising about it. If aliens are attacking all over the map at once, it is hard to prevent them going down.
A Fade can take down 3/4 sentries on its own easily.
I don't know what games you've been playing, but it just does not work like that. Once you start running back to re-build all over again, the front line suffers horribly.
I'm not saying aliens should not be able to take down sentries easily, in fact I think they should be able to take them down easier than they can now.
But you should force it so that it requires more than one to take down a sentry, and make them more vital tactically (like tf2)... more expensive, much more powerful - so at times you have maybe 2, if not 1 per room.
This way you have a tipping point, and whilst marines are upfront struggling to take on the hive, they are not able to knock out rooms and relocate WITHOUT WORKING TOGETHER.
A system that would make it easier to take down structures/sentries early game if they work together. But harder as they start to defend, and individuals can't just sneak out and wreak havoc.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I don't think they need to be taken out of the game, but it would be nice to see much less of a strong focus on them in typical games. They shouldn't be demoted to completely worthless like they were in NS1, but their role should move from "all encompassing map coverage" to "used in strategic positions to augment marine advances or provide limited base defense as a stopgap till marines can arrive to defend".
I would MUCH rather see them used much more used in clever and strategic places than covering the entire map with them. The marine commanders focus should be geared towards getting marines upgrades to be more effective, than boring static defense as the primary means of defending assets. Examples:
1) Placing 1 turret in a hidden corner to kill unsuspecting skulks from hitting the IP, and delaying the need to beacon at every idle skulk base attack. This may not even be an issue in more competitive games. 2) Placing a turret or 2 in a lonely corridor on the map to channel passing skulks towards more marine friendly areas of the map. 3) Placing a turret to augment marine defense of a PG push on a hive or siege.
Once the game gets more balanced and the performance issues are improved, turrets should be treated as more of a luxury, and not a needed requirement in most games. They shouldn't become completely obsolete like they became in NS1 though, just used sparingly and smartly.
You can repair stuff very quickly with macs, in fact if you place your sentries properly you can generally hold of a lerk just by repairing things as it damages it. A fade is harder but it can be done for quite a while. Not to mention by this point you should have an abundant supply of money for macs and arcs and replacement structures. And if the aliens are attacking all over the map, they aren't devoting much effort to defending what you're attacking. Although if the aliens are attacking everywhere at once, they're demonstrating good use of their skills, that's what aliens are supposed to do, either bunch up and smash a base quickly, or spread out and keep the marines running, hit and run attacks and very spread out aggression is what aliens are best at, it's their best strategic approach, you can't really fault them when playing to their strengths excellently wins them the game. Especially given the massive tech disadvantage marines have at the moment. Sometimes you kinda have to accept that the game isn't balanced at all right now, and won't be until marines can carry around 50 res worth of stuff each.
<!--quoteo(post=1856600:date=Jun 26 2011, 07:06 PM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 26 2011, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I have absolutely no idea what could be done. One thing I'd like to point out that currently at a certain point there is nothing else to spend res on other than turrets, and it's actually okay to drop them, but only then.
The issue is that marines are attacking and aliens are defending, so having a stationary defense not only sucks up your res, but weakens your attackers too (due to lack of tech). So there are two options here:
1. Change the flow of the game somehow to make expansions far more important for marines (as much as it is for aliens), thus placing more of an importance on defending locations. 2. Change sentries to somehow be much more mobile (which isn't a fun option IMO since killing AI controlled stuff isn't fun for ANYONE). 3. Remove sentries from the game since the very large majority of commanders don't really understand the flow of the game yet, and will continue dropping sentries pretty much constantly regardless of what's done to them.
Seeing as how the game probably isn't going to change significantly, I THINK we can safely assume that sentries either need to be totally reworked or removed. Of course I can't predict any changes Flayra/UWE is going to make, but right now the game has largely devolved into NS 1.04.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You make a good point in your first line. Once the game gets far enough long, if a marine team controls several extractor points they start getting a junk load of res and they have nothing to spend it on. In NS1 this wasn't an issue because of having to constantly drop heavies, jp's and upgraded weapons, but now comms only spend personal res on ARCS and MACS it appears. And if I'm not mistaken, this is the point you think it's okay to drop turrets and I agree.
Once marines begin dominating the map and making a push on the last hive, nobody wants to waste time phasing to other parts of the map to defend the occasional skulk rush. And it wastes time. I think it truly comes down to competency by marines and competency to do the right thing. If a commander wants to drop a lot of turrets and waste res early in a game, then he has signed his team's death warrant.
The mod made a good point though - I think we should evaluate these things once all the features of the game are implemented. I doubt much will change as we seem to be focusing on the early portions of the game where res is being wasted, but you never know. Plus I generally believe the best way to make changes to a game is once it's been released and the competitive side starts molding. When non-pug teams are playing each other I believe you truly start to see imbalances more often.
Anyways, I'd be interested to play with you as a comm some time. PM your steam name and I'll add you.
I'm not complaining that aliens can attack the rear whilst you are upfront. It is that seemingly individuals can do it at leisure, which means you have 6+ players or points on the map that you have to constantly attend to.
Factor in a team-play element for taking down sentries and it nullifies the problem.
Look at the spy in TF2 for example... sentries are very effective, in fact they are extremely effective. But when the spy comes in to play, they have a big weakness against team attacks.
That is exactly the sort of thing I am suggesting. It means aliens can effectively take down choice locations, and not just go taking things down around the map.
Which as I have suggested leads to spam, leads to long games... etc etc
It is damage based balance, as opposed to incorporating other elements that would balance it better.
6 or so points are not a problem unless 4 or so aliens are attacking at the same time, and if they're doing that, they're demonstrating coordination and teamwork, or at least are all doing good things at the same time, which passes for it most of the time.
What makes you think teamwork means everyone has to be in the same place?
The major issue is that marines don't really have the ability to go hunt fades on their own. You need a couple of people, once marines get exosuits they will be able to actually chase fades out of areas and properly control territory, rather than being forced to only defend fortified locations.
Although even now, you should try to control the map strategically, fortify areas such that aliens cannot easily get past your front lines, and you will find that rear areas are much less prone to attack.
On summit, that means controlling crossroads, which most people neglect. On tram, I don't know, haven't played enough tram to figure out a good strategy for it, and it's a more complex map than summit.
I dont think you are getting it Chris. Sentries will never be balanced unless you take a different approach.
Instead you balance it on 'it is not powerful enough, so make it cheaper (which leads to spam) and more powerful'
In turn Aliens whine because 'it is too powerful, make them more expensive and less powerful'.
You don't get an even ground, which is why in TF2 the spy team mechanic works so bloody well, even when you have sentries that kill anything in front of them.
Nothing is balanced completely on damage, but overcomes it by using team-play abilities to balance things rather than going round in damage circles.
<!--quoteo(post=1856720:date=Jun 27 2011, 10:37 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 27 2011, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What makes you think teamwork means everyone has to be in the same place?
The major issue is that marines don't really have the ability to go hunt fades on their own. You need a couple of people, once marines get exosuits they will be able to actually chase fades out of areas and properly control territory, rather than being forced to only defend fortified locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Nope, team res. So basically you have to choose between tech or... dropping sentries.
But that also doesn't mean they're still worthless.
The best part is? I remember around the time NS2 was announced (probably a few months later) Flayra was talking about the role of sentries in NS2. My buddy had an a huge fit since every decent NS1 player knows turrets were awful. I tried to explain to him that NS2 would be a different game and trying to complain about something without any context was futile.
Boy was I wrong! Not only is NS2 EXTREMELY similar to NS1, turrets are probably even MORE worthless. And the poorly-skilled community is just as delusional!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the community doesn't agree with an opinion, that doesn't mean they're poorly skilled. It's like saying pug matches are a good judge of player talent.
After reading some more of your thoughts I'm beginning to understand why you feel the way you do, however I feel like they are still necessary in some games. The turret farms are a waste of res if it's early in the game, but it's not realistic to get rid of turrets in pug matches imho.
So I don't have to search through the thread again, how do you suggest they 'rework' the turrets? No flaming intended in that question.
After reading some more of your thoughts I'm beginning to understand why you feel the way you do, however I feel like they are still necessary in some games. The turret farms are a waste of res if it's early in the game, but it's not realistic to get rid of turrets in pug matches imho.
So I don't have to search through the thread again, how do you suggest they 'rework' the turrets? No flaming intended in that question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly I have absolutely no idea what could be done. One thing I'd like to point out that currently at a certain point there is nothing else to spend res on other than turrets, and it's actually okay to drop them, but only then.
The issue is that marines are attacking and aliens are defending, so having a stationary defense not only sucks up your res, but weakens your attackers too (due to lack of tech). So there are two options here:
1. Change the flow of the game somehow to make expansions far more important for marines (as much as it is for aliens), thus placing more of an importance on defending locations.
2. Change sentries to somehow be much more mobile (which isn't a fun option IMO since killing AI controlled stuff isn't fun for ANYONE).
3. Remove sentries from the game since the very large majority of commanders don't really understand the flow of the game yet, and will continue dropping sentries pretty much constantly regardless of what's done to them.
Seeing as how the game probably isn't going to change significantly, I THINK we can safely assume that sentries either need to be totally reworked or removed. Of course I can't predict any changes Flayra/UWE is going to make, but right now the game has largely devolved into NS 1.04.
Thanks. <3
An apt summary appears to be: Sentries are slightly unbalanced right now, like most other elements of the game, and that is to be expected at this stage of the beta. This discussion appears to have created a mountain out of a molehill. I'm sure the team will continue to tinker with sentries, as they have since the Alpha. I look forward to seeing more iterations, I'm sure many will be drawn from this thread.
Edit: Terrible spelling
An apt summary appears to be: Sentries are slightly unbalanced right now, like most other elements of the game, and that is to be expected at this stage of the beta. This discussion appears to have created a mountain out of a molehill. I'm sure the team will continue to tinker with sentries, as they have since the Alpha. I look forward to seeing more iterations, I'm sure many will be drawn from this thread.
Edit: Terrible spelling<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Much of the problem is that we are arguing based on anecdotes rather than data. My personal experience is that much of the finer points of balance (skulk v LMG, fade v shotgun, sentries, hydras, etc.) are overshadowed by the lag and vast differences in player skill, such that two players can come to drastically different interpretations of balance. Hopefully, with the new data logging in B180+, we can compare the various explanations and anecdotes with data to see which ones better fit reality.
Might be interesting if they were made exhaustible, so they were much more powerful, and cheaper and cost Pres, but only fired like 200 bullets or something. It would be interesting if they didn't require power, or only ran for a certain amount of time if underpowered. You can imagine marines pushing up, and the comm quickly dropping a few turrets to cover marines while they build a phase gate, or take down a node. If done this way the trade off, is meds and ammo vs sentries. I think it would be a lot more interesting this way.
They function identically, the difference is they just spontaneously die after a while so you don't see very many of them on the map at once.
Also it only makes them 'dynamic' in the sense you have to keep replacing them. If a position continues to need defending, you would replace the sentries there, if it doesn't, then in the current system, aliens wouldn't be encountering sentries.
But interestingly with your system, you could move your sentries with your marines, so both marines and aliens have to deal with them constantly, if sentries aren't fun, I don't see how this is an improvement.
However, as a marine, I can hardly see how you can hold a huge chunk of territory without using them in the current state of the game. Sure, not 30 seconds into a game, especially how useful shotguns are and how trying to ambush anyone as skulk is pretty much useless if said marine just looks at the mini-map. But although they've made a lot of improvements to playability recently (and I'm very glad for that, I really can enjoy most games since B178), you seriously can't expect your inexperienced marines to 1) kill anything 2) navigate phase gates promptly 3) be aware of what's actually going on with the lag spikes, choppiness and global chaos that rise throughout the game. Sure, grab 5 of your buddies and play against a team of random aliens and you probably won't have to build a single turret, but no matter how awful you find them, I think they do accomplish something (not that it means it's any good, but hey, that's where I say "it's beta, man!") for a less than optimal team.
I was going to say that people with little RTS background may be prone to spamming more turrets etc. etc., but the more I think of it, the more I find it doesn't matter, simply because avid RTS players would probably get so annoyed that they actually can't control / predict their units' movement and decision making, so they'd want to make sure and point X and Y are safe etc. However, it's clear that with more experience in resources management and such, you make wiser decisions as a commander and thus don't spam turrets 30 seconds into the game. So how do commanders get wiser? Well they learn. They play games and see what's worth doing and what's not. The only thing is that on the field, it's people like me, you, Veritas, and everyone who posted here that has to cope with that learning phase. I don't mind it, I knew it was bound to happen and I know it'll go on for quite a while. Just like back in NS 1.0. I actually like to see people learn (maybe just because that's actually my profession), and so I don't mind pointing out mistakes/possible improvements to comms. The worst thing one can do though is just to yell a them, which is the Way Of The Internet, I know.
So yeah, if someone thinks it can be done, then hey, just hop into the comm chair and show those marines you can win without using turrets / using them wisely. They'll learn from you. Heck, even record it and show it to us here! But I feel players are not ready / able to do that just yet.
tl;dr: Turrets do slow down marines early game, but they are too often needed to try and compensate for lack of cohesion / awareness / responsiveness in the team. Removing turrets serves no purpose to my eyes; people need to learn, and to learn, they need to play, not have people bashing them at every turn.
Turrets didn't work in Alpha at a point where hydras did. Performance was amazingly terrible, yes. However one thing was noted, 1 gorge + 2 skulks = hydra base spam = game win = op.
I was trying to figure out what that must feel like so I too read through this thread again.....I now understand.
The problem with NS1 (and NS2) is that the level of team skill tends to dictate how fun the match is.
I've never played a game that can be so satisfying, but a lot of the time completely frustrating because of incompetent players. You can even have awesome games where you lose, but only if you feel like the whole team has done all they can.
Also, something is fundamentally broken (imo) when you play 2 different types of game in publics and clan matches, where apparently sentries are so useless that no one bothers with them.
Does that not strike anyone as odd?
All the weapons have a role, but the buildings don't?
Like I have stated. Sentry farms are bad for game play, cause stalemates, are boring to take down, they also have no place in clan matches.
The reason they are required is that aliens can dominate the map with their speed, and an individual alien can cause huge problems - which means you can't rely on any static defence against any SOLO alien.
This is particularly evident in public play, where INDIVIDUAL aliens can all pick off sentries at leisure. Which means that once Marines are spread out across an entire map, it is very hard to push the last hive because the back defences are being taken down. With the possibility of hives going up.
So in turn you are required to spam turrets.
So why not address that problem by saying 'well maybe it requires 2 aliens to use some sort of 'joint' skill to take down individual but POWERFUL sentries'. That are more expensive, much more powerful, and have a tactical and strategic role.
So that in essence you require:
More than one alien. (Forces players to work together, but also you don't have trouble all over the map, all of the time)
Aliens to be in the same place at the same time. (It will require more effort to get both aliens to the same point at the same time)
I don't have the answer to what that could be. Perhaps one alien fires something onto the floor, that the sentries fire at so the other can get behind them.
Maybe they can disable sentries temporarily somehow.
But there are big issues imo.
I agree, but i think there needs to be a specific building for sentries that also includes upgrades like automatic 360 degree turning, etc. But i also agree with NS2HD that its still in beta and eventually it will find a purpose in NS2 and will eventually be perfected, in till then just wait and see what future builds brings.
MAC and ARC are changed to Tres in the next Build.
Well placed sentrys (long hallways are not good!) near eachoter and 1 Sentry facing atlwast 2 other 1 and using the change direction Button makes 4 Sentrys hard to kill.
Only thing that really hurts even well placed sentrys are Biliebombs!
One thing tgat I would change to the Sentrys is that they should use the Normal Danagetype and not Light Damagetype!
The problem was not because we played badly. We worked together, and Fades were taken down very quickly.
Actually, I think we took down about 4 fades within a few minutes of each other at one point.
But the commander, even though great and that we dominated the early game with phase gates (moving into a position to take alien start), just did not bother with sentries. We even took down their hive at alien start, but unfortunately they had surface access.
But we lost because Marines once spread out leave themselves INCREDIBLY open. I just don't see how you can have EVEN 20 - 30 minutes game, when basically any Lerk or Fade or a Skulk that works itself into a good position can completely rip apart defences on its own.
Instead you have to build each base up, fill it with sentries and then move to the next room.
Damage based balance will not work, and we will have the same problems we had in NS1. With sentries just being flawed in implementation.
Sentries should be great against individual aliens, but rubbish against aliens working together. That way, Marine advancement can happen without any alien evolving to Lerk or just getting in the right position to take out sentries.
This slows the game, annoys everyone because of spam and becomes quite boring.
You cannot tell me that a single alien can kill an entire base before the marines can react, they simply do not posess that kind of dps. They can at best kill an armory or something else trivial. Or even a turret, which is what turrets are for, to be killed rather than your other buildings.
Also if you use sentries to support attacks, which you should, you also end up with a nice bunch of them scattered around the map at your various outposts, which is great for slowing alien movement and distracting them.
Your primary units are and should always be marines, turrets cannot and should not be able to hold out against aliens on their own, they buy valuable time and provide valuable fire support, but do not win fights on their own. Marines are just as powerful against alien defences if the aliens don't react. A few marines with the usual equipment of a GL and an arc and some armory support can clear out a hive in a matter of minutes. A few aliens can do the same to marine bases.
It's your response time that is the difficulty, marines have pretty poor response time by default, as commander you need to work to rectify this, that's why you capture bases in the first place, everything you do as marine commander is about maximising responsiveness for your marines, you establish phase networks, build redundant IPs, build bases and turrets in order to delay aliens, and generally make sure your marines can react to aliens. Aliens have an advantage in that they are far more mobile than marines so if marines attack an alien hive, it's very rare that aliens won't start defending it. Marines on the other hand do not have automatic spawning in their bases, they can't move around the map as fast without phase gates, and they spend a lot less time skirmishing and running around on their own and so are less likely to be in the area. You absolutely need to capitalise on phase gates to move your entire team at once, and sentries/bases to give them time in which to move.
We had Phase Gates all over the map, we even had sentries once the comm decided to start placing them down.
But once marines are spread out, it takes time to react to these things. Often sentries go down without people really realising about it. If aliens are attacking all over the map at once, it is hard to prevent them going down.
A Fade can take down 3/4 sentries on its own easily.
I don't know what games you've been playing, but it just does not work like that. Once you start running back to re-build all over again, the front line suffers horribly.
I'm not saying aliens should not be able to take down sentries easily, in fact I think they should be able to take them down easier than they can now.
But you should force it so that it requires more than one to take down a sentry, and make them more vital tactically (like tf2)... more expensive, much more powerful - so at times you have maybe 2, if not 1 per room.
This way you have a tipping point, and whilst marines are upfront struggling to take on the hive, they are not able to knock out rooms and relocate WITHOUT WORKING TOGETHER.
A system that would make it easier to take down structures/sentries early game if they work together. But harder as they start to defend, and individuals can't just sneak out and wreak havoc.
I would MUCH rather see them used much more used in clever and strategic places than covering the entire map with them. The marine commanders focus should be geared towards getting marines upgrades to be more effective, than boring static defense as the primary means of defending assets. Examples:
1) Placing 1 turret in a hidden corner to kill unsuspecting skulks from hitting the IP, and delaying the need to beacon at every idle skulk base attack. This may not even be an issue in more competitive games.
2) Placing a turret or 2 in a lonely corridor on the map to channel passing skulks towards more marine friendly areas of the map.
3) Placing a turret to augment marine defense of a PG push on a hive or siege.
Once the game gets more balanced and the performance issues are improved, turrets should be treated as more of a luxury, and not a needed requirement in most games. They shouldn't become completely obsolete like they became in NS1 though, just used sparingly and smartly.
The issue is that marines are attacking and aliens are defending, so having a stationary defense not only sucks up your res, but weakens your attackers too (due to lack of tech). So there are two options here:
1. Change the flow of the game somehow to make expansions far more important for marines (as much as it is for aliens), thus placing more of an importance on defending locations.
2. Change sentries to somehow be much more mobile (which isn't a fun option IMO since killing AI controlled stuff isn't fun for ANYONE).
3. Remove sentries from the game since the very large majority of commanders don't really understand the flow of the game yet, and will continue dropping sentries pretty much constantly regardless of what's done to them.
Seeing as how the game probably isn't going to change significantly, I THINK we can safely assume that sentries either need to be totally reworked or removed. Of course I can't predict any changes Flayra/UWE is going to make, but right now the game has largely devolved into NS 1.04.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make a good point in your first line. Once the game gets far enough long, if a marine team controls several extractor points they start getting a junk load of res and they have nothing to spend it on. In NS1 this wasn't an issue because of having to constantly drop heavies, jp's and upgraded weapons, but now comms only spend personal res on ARCS and MACS it appears. And if I'm not mistaken, this is the point you think it's okay to drop turrets and I agree.
Once marines begin dominating the map and making a push on the last hive, nobody wants to waste time phasing to other parts of the map to defend the occasional skulk rush. And it wastes time. I think it truly comes down to competency by marines and competency to do the right thing. If a commander wants to drop a lot of turrets and waste res early in a game, then he has signed his team's death warrant.
The mod made a good point though - I think we should evaluate these things once all the features of the game are implemented. I doubt much will change as we seem to be focusing on the early portions of the game where res is being wasted, but you never know. Plus I generally believe the best way to make changes to a game is once it's been released and the competitive side starts molding. When non-pug teams are playing each other I believe you truly start to see imbalances more often.
Anyways, I'd be interested to play with you as a comm some time. PM your steam name and I'll add you.
Factor in a team-play element for taking down sentries and it nullifies the problem.
Look at the spy in TF2 for example... sentries are very effective, in fact they are extremely effective. But when the spy comes in to play, they have a big weakness against team attacks.
That is exactly the sort of thing I am suggesting. It means aliens can effectively take down choice locations, and not just go taking things down around the map.
Which as I have suggested leads to spam, leads to long games... etc etc
It is damage based balance, as opposed to incorporating other elements that would balance it better.
What makes you think teamwork means everyone has to be in the same place?
The major issue is that marines don't really have the ability to go hunt fades on their own. You need a couple of people, once marines get exosuits they will be able to actually chase fades out of areas and properly control territory, rather than being forced to only defend fortified locations.
Although even now, you should try to control the map strategically, fortify areas such that aliens cannot easily get past your front lines, and you will find that rear areas are much less prone to attack.
On summit, that means controlling crossroads, which most people neglect. On tram, I don't know, haven't played enough tram to figure out a good strategy for it, and it's a more complex map than summit.
Instead you balance it on 'it is not powerful enough, so make it cheaper (which leads to spam) and more powerful'
In turn Aliens whine because 'it is too powerful, make them more expensive and less powerful'.
You don't get an even ground, which is why in TF2 the spy team mechanic works so bloody well, even when you have sentries that kill anything in front of them.
Nothing is balanced completely on damage, but overcomes it by using team-play abilities to balance things rather than going round in damage circles.
Spy - Sentry, Medic - Heavy...
The major issue is that marines don't really have the ability to go hunt fades on their own. You need a couple of people, once marines get exosuits they will be able to actually chase fades out of areas and properly control territory, rather than being forced to only defend fortified locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lmaaaaaaoooooo!!!!!!!!