vlncJoin Date: 2010-09-07Member: 73921Members, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1856206:date=Jun 25 2011, 06:44 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 25 2011, 06:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm tired of 2 hour games because a commander thinks random sentries is better than shotguns or armor 1. I have never seen them be used in a way that pushes the game forward.
It's NS1 all over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your com is an unexperience com or maybe all the other mates was not doing their jobs. It is very frustrating when you're com and when other mate not running at the good place and doing their stuff alone.
Just remember one thing, all the match we played (frelge) we never used only one sentry. But the game is not finished yet, hard to say if turret need to stay or not.
A thing could help about spam turret is to :
1 - increase price (but com who do not spam them will be not happy) 2 - limit turret number by room (depend the size of the room) 3 - wait for people to get enough experience as com and see that spamming turret is not a good idea for the round and the server.
IMO the job of the turret is to disturbed alien, protect building but not to kill aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1856243:date=Jun 25 2011, 03:57 AM:name=vlnc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vlnc @ Jun 25 2011, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your com is an unexperience com or maybe all the other mates was not doing their jobs. It is very frustrating when you're com and when other mate not running at the good place and doing their stuff alone.
Just remember one thing, all the match we played (frelge) we never used only one sentry. But the game is not finished yet, hard to say if turret need to stay or not.
A thing could help about spam turret is to :
1 - increase price (but com who do not spam them will be not happy) 2 - limit turret number by room (depend the size of the room) 3 - wait for people to get enough experience as com and see that spamming turret is not a good idea for the round and the server.
IMO the job of the turret is to disturbed alien, protect building but not to kill aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better idea: Remove turrets all together, give commanders a PRes ability that electrifies all buildings in an area for 10 seconds with a 2-3 minute cooldown.
If the developers are really pushing for shorter, faster-paced games, then I also don't understand why any sort of static defense should be kept in the game. Removing hydras and sentry turrets would be a welcome addition.
<!--quoteo(post=1856221:date=Jun 25 2011, 07:07 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 25 2011, 07:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you play NS1? Can you maintain at least a 3-1 ratio on marines right now? Do you understand that marine gameplay right now is kill first hive and push to alien start?
I don't even know what else to say because I don't think you've ever seen a decent player in NS2. You seem to think all marines are inept and require stationary aimbotting defenses to win the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry but that is somewhat irrelevant.
Keeping turrets allow to place turrets if wanted (or not if unneccessary). Remember NS1? Turrets are still in the game. We see them maybe once in a full moon, but that once every so often is possible because turrets are ingame.
<!--quoteo(post=1856265:date=Jun 25 2011, 05:08 AM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jun 25 2011, 05:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry but that is somewhat irrelevant.
Keeping turrets allow to place turrets if wanted (or not if unneccessary). Remember NS1? Turrets are still in the game. We see them maybe once in a full moon, but that once every so often is possible because turrets are ingame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> wat
Are you saying you want to keep turrets in just for the sake of having them?
In a game that requires map control (Like most RTS's), some sort of static defence is a good gameplay element. When balanced, sentry guns won't be able to draw out the game by being spammed, and they will fall into their proper place in the patchwork of other gameplay elements.
Remove-it-because-it-doesn't-quite-work-perfectly-in-Build XXX is not a good strategy for making NS2 a fun game.
<!--quoteo(post=1856242:date=Jun 25 2011, 09:41 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 25 2011, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you find sentries are too slow to take down, you can just make them weaker.
My point is that just saying 'it takes this much damage to kill one' is the easiest way, because all classes can do damage, all classes are built around doing damage, and getting more players together means a lot more damage.
I mean, what's the best thing your system can do? If you get enough players together of specific types, you can kill a turret farm.
Whereas the best thing the simple damage system can do, is if you get enough players together of any type, you can kill a turret farm.
The simple approach achieves the goal far better than the gimmicky one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is it gimmicky? UWE made a decision to introduce bile bomb to add another layer in because quite simply, damage based balance is not working.
If you make sentries weaker, you have to make them cheaper, if you make them cheaper, then you get more spam.
It feels like a 100 plasters over a wound that requires a bandage.
It isn't a gimmicky solution, it means you can have effective anti-structure options that come into play when people are working together.
It actually requires a situation to unfold, whereby a Gorge/Lerk/Skulk/Fade can all be in the action together. But if you made that combo lethal to structures (somehow) for example, it would give you an effective option.
It would also mean you wouldn't have to have sentry spam to combat things such as FOV for the sentries, and other issues that come from a Lerk being able to spend 5 minutes sniping sentries until you wipe out a farm. I'd rather be fighting the other team.
You just keep going round and round in circles adding more layers of damage based balance.
What ever way you balance it based on armour, cost and strength, you will always end up with 1000 turrets on a server.
Look at any other game that does sentries, and you won't find the issues you do in ns2/1
Are you saying you want to keep turrets in just for the sake of having them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I'm saying that join date and skill level have nothing to do with the fun factor. If turrets aren't used, it's because they haven't been properly designed, not because they're inherently flawed.
<!--quoteo(post=1856290:date=Jun 25 2011, 12:06 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jun 25 2011, 12:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is it gimmicky? UWE made a decision to introduce bile bomb to add another layer in because quite simply, damage based balance is not working.
If you make sentries weaker, you have to make them cheaper, if you make them cheaper, then you get more spam.
It feels like a 100 plasters over a wound that requires a bandage.
It isn't a gimmicky solution, it means you can have effective anti-structure options that come into play when people are working together.
It actually requires a situation to unfold, whereby a Gorge/Lerk/Skulk/Fade can all be in the action together. But if you made that combo lethal to structures (somehow) for example, it would give you an effective option.
It would also mean you wouldn't have to have sentry spam to combat things such as FOV for the sentries, and other issues that come from a Lerk being able to spend 5 minutes sniping sentries until you wipe out a farm. I'd rather be fighting the other team.
You just keep going round and round in circles adding more layers of damage based balance.
What ever way you balance it based on armour, cost and strength, you will always end up with 1000 turrets on a server.
Look at any other game that does sentries, and you won't find the issues you do in ns2/1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't have to make them cheaper if you make them weaker. That's the point.
Either they are too difficult to get rid of, in which case they are overpowered and need a nerf, or they are easy enough to get rid of, and therefore they don't need a nerf.
Bile bomb is a special case of sorts, gorges can't have a general purpose attack because they have healing, if they had a skulk level attack as well as healing they'd be overpowered, so instead they get a crappy general attack but a proper anti-structure attack.
But most aliens have some sort of attack that works on everything, so you can just balance things based on damage, because all aliens have abilities designed to just do damage to things.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1856288:date=Jun 25 2011, 03:48 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Jun 25 2011, 03:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a game that requires map control (Like most RTS's), some sort of static defence is a good gameplay element. When balanced, sentry guns won't be able to draw out the game by being spammed, and they will fall into their proper place in the patchwork of other gameplay elements.
Remove-it-because-it-doesn't-quite-work-perfectly-in-Build XXX is not a good strategy for making NS2 a fun game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is spot on. AI controlled static defense can also help bridge the skill gap between the teams, so the lesser skilled team is not steam rolled <b>too</b> quickly.
Static defense should ward off small scale harassment (eg. one or two marines/skulks), as well as giving the defenders an advantage against large scale attacks.
However, the attacking team should be able to overwhelm any static defense when the attackers have a large lead (in resource collection and territory domination). In Real Time Strategy games such as Starcraft, the winning team is able to produce larger armies, as well as replacing lost units quicker.
In NS2, however, due to the long evolving time, Aliens cannot hope to win quickly by simply launching kamikaze attacks repeatedly against Sentry fortified bases. Mature Whip was designed to be the Kharaa siege weapon, similar to the ARC in function, but is currently not fully implemented.
Marines, on the other hand, can repurchase weapons in seconds, hop through the Phase Gate, and return to the front line in under half a minute. Marines also have addition long ranged firepower from AI controlled ARCs to slowly melt away any static defense.
Kharaas are currently disadvantaged in those aspects. Until all the core game feature are complete, these problems will persist because of the overall game design. For example, simply adding the Onos to the game to counter Sentries will unbalance the game, as Marines do not yet have an effective anti-Onos weapon. Short term fixes may be possible, but only if they are not too time consuming to implement and undo.
<!--quoteo(post=1856297:date=Jun 25 2011, 12:40 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jun 25 2011, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is spot on. AI controlled static defense can also help bridge the skill gap between the teams, so the lesser skilled team is not steam rolled <b>too</b> quickly.
Static defense should ward off small scale harassment (eg. one or two marines/skulks), as well as giving the defenders an advantage against large scale attacks.
However, the attacking team should be able to overwhelm any static defense when the attackers have a large lead (in resource collection and territory domination). In Real Time Strategy games such as Starcraft, the winning team is able to produce larger armies, as well as replacing lost units quicker.
In NS2, however, due to the long evolving time, Aliens cannot hope to win quickly by simply launching kamikaze attacks repeatedly against Sentry fortified bases. Mature Whip was designed to be the Kharaa siege weapon, similar to the ARC in function, but is currently not fully implemented.
Marines, on the other hand, can repurchase weapons in seconds, hop through the Phase Gate, and return to the front line in under half a minute. Marines also have addition long ranged firepower from AI controlled ARCs to slowly melt away any static defense.
Kharaas are currently disadvantaged in those aspects. Until all the core game feature are complete, these problems will persist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens aren't supposed to kamikaze, all aliens have high mobility so rather than dying, they should be retreating. Aliens don't have to commit like marines do.
The way to beat sentry spam is to build up a bunch of aliens and attack at once, marines have some pretty serious weak points in the form of infantry portals and power nodes, and if you destroy the comm chair (which is very very hard to cover completely with sentries due to its positioning in most rooms) you win automatically, you actually cannot spam enough sentries in a base to effectively stop that kind of attack, the game hits the entity limit quite quickly if you try.
Silly kids, it doesnt matter whether if they are over powered or not. You cant take out marine base as long as there are marines in it, it took 15 minutes to take down 3 guys without ips in 8v8 game. If the silly commander keeps adding turrets and ips as they get destroyed the game never ends.
The most frustrating part is it often seems nobody realizes that there is no strategic value to the game anymore no decisions to make, nothing and the game get prolonged in bad cases for hours.
<!--quoteo(post=1856300:date=Jun 25 2011, 01:01 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jun 25 2011, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Silly kids, it doesnt matter whether if they are over powered or not. You cant take out marine base as long as there are marines in it, it took 15 minutes to take down 3 guys without ips in 8v8 game. If the silly commander keeps adding turrets and ips as they get destroyed the game never ends.
The most frustrating part is it often seems nobody realizes that there is no strategic value to the game anymore no decisions to make, nothing and the game get prolonged in bad cases for hours.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Three or four fades all at once can easily kill a base full of marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1856301:date=Jun 25 2011, 02:09 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 25 2011, 02:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Three or four fades all at once can easily kill a base full of marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If that were the case games would not be prolonged would they, infact they would end soon after second hive is done.
As Lerk yoU can take out sentrys really easy. Pop around the corner and Snipe, go back for cover and redo. As Skulk just find a blindspot at only 1 Sentry (there is always 1!) bite it down. Now a other one has a blindspot!
The main problem is, that sentrys can only be repaired by MACs. 3 Sniper hits and my Pres are gone...
Commanders need to be able to cast chamber abilities anywhere on the map instead of limiting them to being defensive abilities only. Umbra used to be a good siegebreaker, now its pretty terrible offensively.
I was the commander in the games Veritas is whining about. He is a ridiculously good marine player -- like 15:1 K/D good and played "competitively." And if the rest of the team were made up of all competitive players like him, there would be no need for sentries. However, like some karmic balance was invoked, the rest of the marine players were very green. Didn't know the maps, died to skulks 1v1 regularly, etc. I put 4 sentries (2 zones, overlapping) in Marine Start to give some semblance of base defense because skulks were running rampant while he rambo'd instead of helping to lead the newer players.
<b>And he wouldn't shut up about it. </b>
As commander I play a very lean-sentry game, and even that was not enough for him. He is just freaking out about them because he wants every game to be a shotgun rush.
The counter-turret (AKA the Onos) isn't in yet, and so there's no good counter for turrets. There's plenty of fairly acceptable ones (including massed skulk rushes, sniping, and other nifty stunts) but the simple, go-to solution (namely, a giant wall of armor and flesh that laughs at turret fire) isn't in yet.
And neither is a bunch of other stuff, including carapace, regen, stealth (maybe sneaking invisibly past turret arcs to bite their butts will be viable?)...
Especially in smaller pub games, where there's not as much organization AND there aren't marines scattered randomly all over the place to deal with small messes on short notice, that single skulk running around blowing stuff up is a pain in the butt who can easily inflict 20-30 rez worth of damage. Spending 20-30 rez to mostly secure an area against lone skulk harassment can be worth it.
If the problem is a staggering overabundance of Tres available so that turret farming occurs, the problem might be in the current Tres model, not the turrets. It might also be a mapping problem... not enough vents or alternative access to areas to get into blind spots. It might also be a player problem... those alternates exist, but your players can't find them. Or it might be a game-incompletion problem... the marines should have won an hour ago, but don't have heavy armor/ARCs that can pathfind woth a damn/an experienced commander, so they just haven't made that final push yet.
It's far too early in development to say "hey, that staple of RTS gaming, the static, no-management-required local defender, needs to go because it doesn't fit." Small tweaks like res costs, damage adjustment, tracking time, and the like are fine at the moment to keep betas playable, but removing turrets wholesale isn't a gameplay decision that should be made based on current beta play. And folks who don't like turrets decided long ago they shouldn't be in the game anyway, so we're not going to hear otherwise from them regardless of how well implemented they are.
<!--quoteo(post=1856332:date=Jun 25 2011, 08:12 AM:name=Hakujin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hakujin @ Jun 25 2011, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was the commander in the games Veritas is whining about. He is a ridiculously good marine player -- like 15:1 K/D good and played "competitively." And if the rest of the team were made up of all competitive players like him, there would be no need for sentries. However, like some karmic balance was invoked, the rest of the marine players were very green. Didn't know the maps, died to skulks 1v1 regularly, etc. I put 4 sentries (2 zones, overlapping) in Marine Start to give some semblance of base defense because skulks were running rampant while he rambo'd instead of helping to lead the newer players.
<b>And he wouldn't shut up about it. </b>
As commander I play a very lean-sentry game, and even that was not enough for him. He is just freaking out about them because he wants every game to be a shotgun rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you just gave us all the insight we needed regarding this topic.
This is all starting to sound like a broken record, but it's hard to say for sure as long as the game is feature incomplete....especially when the main problem happens in the late game, and a lot of the late game stuff isn't in yet. Once everything planned is in the game, then we can really start tackling this with more authority. The devs themselves seem right now more concerned about bugs, stability and playability than higher level game balance.
ns1 solved this problem with turret factories! A turret factory limits the range turrets can be spread out, and if you want to keep building turrets you must have turret factory - which is pretty costly thing if you plan on having it around the map. So, turrets cannot be spammed throughout the whole room but rather only single point in the room.
ns2 did not solve this problem, and currently turrets are cheap and I've seen games almost every room with 5+ turrets. In fact if marines want to win, they usually must turtle this way to win.
they must change how turret work, here are some ideas
1.bring back turret factories 2.increase the price of turrets 3.limit how many turrets can be within a room 4.reduce their usefulness (ex damage) -
design of the game is still pretty poor aside from this problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1856288:date=Jun 25 2011, 05:48 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Jun 25 2011, 05:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a game that requires map control (Like most RTS's), some sort of static defence is a good gameplay element. When balanced, sentry guns won't be able to draw out the game by being spammed, and they will fall into their proper place in the patchwork of other gameplay elements.
Remove-it-because-it-doesn't-quite-work-perfectly-in-Build XXX is not a good strategy for making NS2 a fun game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why is it good or fun, though? Why can't a phase gate with a marine guarding it suffice for map control instead of a static structure with an aimbot? Static structures in NS and TF2 are designed to be steamrolled by any team with basic coordination, so I don't think it's correct to say that static defense in these games is great and balanced because it can kill a bunch of newer players who lack enough skill and teamwork to make any progress.
Marine and alien strategies can remain diverse without the need for static defense.
I don't really understand why some people are saying that I think turrets are overpowered.
They are NOT overpowered. They are completely worthless. Please stop coming into the topic and saying "they should change x about aliens to make it easier to kill turrets". Turrets are braindead easy to deal with: Just expand/tech while the moronic marines sit in one spot building sentries and wipe them out with superior tech.
It's like TF2 on attack/defend maps where engineer was mostly useless on attacker's side. Same concept.
<!--quoteo(post=1856332:date=Jun 25 2011, 10:12 AM:name=Hakujin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hakujin @ Jun 25 2011, 10:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was the commander in the games Veritas is whining about. He is a ridiculously good marine player -- like 15:1 K/D good and played "competitively." And if the rest of the team were made up of all competitive players like him, there would be no need for sentries. However, like some karmic balance was invoked, the rest of the marine players were very green. Didn't know the maps, died to skulks 1v1 regularly, etc. I put 4 sentries (2 zones, overlapping) in Marine Start to give some semblance of base defense because skulks were running rampant while he rambo'd instead of helping to lead the newer players.
<b>And he wouldn't shut up about it. </b>
As commander I play a very lean-sentry game, and even that was not enough for him. He is just freaking out about them because he wants every game to be a shotgun rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure which game you're talking about exactly (since this stuff happens every game) but if you're that "DrFunkenstein" guy then you don't understand how the game works.
Shotguns tech is the absolute best 15 res you can spend at the starting of the game in the current build. It allows every marine on your team to have near-permanent shotguns. You start out with enough res to build both ventilation and flight control RTs and ONE tech choice.
Spending the res on a robotics facility and FOUR sentries is HORRIBLY unproductive when the first 5 minutes of the game are all about denying the first alien hive. This isn't a shotgun rushing thing, that's not really a strategy anymore since all marines get perma-shotguns all game long.
Instead of actually trying to deny the first alien hive (again, if I'm thinking of the correct person) you instead deem protecting/capping a single resource tower more tower more important.
The best part is those sentries were totally useless. Because marines went both west and east, both routes to the bases were totally covered and not a single skulk got by. They were also totally occupied by the fact that their second unbuilt hive was getting harassed by 2-3 marines constantly.
Also, as far as ramboing goes, I don't think I've just ran straight to alien start a single game. I patrol Heli-xroads-SA over and over until I see a hive dropped and call it because your (and most commander) priorities are pretty much out of place.
<!--quoteo(post=1856321:date=Jun 25 2011, 03:01 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jun 25 2011, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If that were the case games would not be prolonged would they, infact they would end soon after second hive is done.
Only marines that waltz out get killed so often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd think so but aliens have a kind of thing about working together, which is to say they don't.
I've never seen more than three fades at once and rarely more than two. Also of course you do need to be at the last marine base for this to work, otherwise you just push them back a bit.
Also it does take a few goes, you need to basically keep the marines as dead as possible while gorges and lerks and of course, you and the other fades do damage to the base, you might need to retreat a few times but if you keep it up, you will wear their structures down and start to push them out, but it does take a bit of coordination.
<!--quoteo(post=1856356:date=Jun 25 2011, 06:56 PM:name=meb3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb3 @ Jun 25 2011, 06:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is it good or fun, though? Why can't a phase gate with a marine guarding it suffice for map control instead of a static structure with an aimbot? Static structures in NS and TF2 are designed to be steamrolled by any team with basic coordination, so I don't think it's correct to say that static defense in these games is great and balanced because it can kill a bunch of newer players who lack enough skill and teamwork to make any progress.
Marine and alien strategies can remain diverse without the need for static defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because phase gates die very quickly, and marines having to sit and guard a room is not fun, as a general rule you cannot keep your marines in one place for long, they will go and find things to do on their own.
Watch some of the recent NS2HD videos, the recent dual perspective ones show him commanding a game, and show how helpful turrets can be when used right, as well as the problems of expecting players to guard things themselves.
Turrets are ultimately a distraction, they WILL die if you leave them alone but they will take time to do so, and that time is what gives marines a chance to phase in and defend the base, that is exactly what you need turrets for and exactly what they're supposed to do most of the time, they are something the aliens need to take out first, because they get shot up otherwise, either they spend time taking out the turrets or they have to retreat faster, either way the turrets protect the base.
Give it some time, Veritas... I know what you're saying, but at the time players will exploit whatever method helps them win. Currently, that's spamming turrets. Once heavies and onos are in the game, we'll see less turrets.
Comments
It's NS1 all over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your com is an unexperience com or maybe all the other mates was not doing their jobs. It is very frustrating when you're com and when other mate not running at the good place and doing their stuff alone.
Just remember one thing, all the match we played (frelge) we never used only one sentry. But the game is not finished yet, hard to say if turret need to stay or not.
A thing could help about spam turret is to :
1 - increase price (but com who do not spam them will be not happy)
2 - limit turret number by room (depend the size of the room)
3 - wait for people to get enough experience as com and see that spamming turret is not a good idea for the round and the server.
IMO the job of the turret is to disturbed alien, protect building but not to kill aliens.
Just remember one thing, all the match we played (frelge) we never used only one sentry. But the game is not finished yet, hard to say if turret need to stay or not.
A thing could help about spam turret is to :
1 - increase price (but com who do not spam them will be not happy)
2 - limit turret number by room (depend the size of the room)
3 - wait for people to get enough experience as com and see that spamming turret is not a good idea for the round and the server.
IMO the job of the turret is to disturbed alien, protect building but not to kill aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better idea: Remove turrets all together, give commanders a PRes ability that electrifies all buildings in an area for 10 seconds with a 2-3 minute cooldown.
I don't even know what else to say because I don't think you've ever seen a decent player in NS2. You seem to think all marines are inept and require stationary aimbotting defenses to win the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry but that is somewhat irrelevant.
Keeping turrets allow to place turrets if wanted (or not if unneccessary).
Remember NS1? Turrets are still in the game. We see them maybe once in a full moon, but that once every so often is possible because turrets are ingame.
Keeping turrets allow to place turrets if wanted (or not if unneccessary).
Remember NS1? Turrets are still in the game. We see them maybe once in a full moon, but that once every so often is possible because turrets are ingame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wat
Are you saying you want to keep turrets in just for the sake of having them?
Remove-it-because-it-doesn't-quite-work-perfectly-in-Build XXX is not a good strategy for making NS2 a fun game.
My point is that just saying 'it takes this much damage to kill one' is the easiest way, because all classes can do damage, all classes are built around doing damage, and getting more players together means a lot more damage.
I mean, what's the best thing your system can do? If you get enough players together of specific types, you can kill a turret farm.
Whereas the best thing the simple damage system can do, is if you get enough players together of any type, you can kill a turret farm.
The simple approach achieves the goal far better than the gimmicky one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is it gimmicky? UWE made a decision to introduce bile bomb to add another layer in because quite simply, damage based balance is not working.
If you make sentries weaker, you have to make them cheaper, if you make them cheaper, then you get more spam.
It feels like a 100 plasters over a wound that requires a bandage.
It isn't a gimmicky solution, it means you can have effective anti-structure options that come into play when people are working together.
It actually requires a situation to unfold, whereby a Gorge/Lerk/Skulk/Fade can all be in the action together. But if you made that combo lethal to structures (somehow) for example, it would give you an effective option.
It would also mean you wouldn't have to have sentry spam to combat things such as FOV for the sentries, and other issues that come from a Lerk being able to spend 5 minutes sniping sentries until you wipe out a farm. I'd rather be fighting the other team.
You just keep going round and round in circles adding more layers of damage based balance.
What ever way you balance it based on armour, cost and strength, you will always end up with 1000 turrets on a server.
Look at any other game that does sentries, and you won't find the issues you do in ns2/1
Are you saying you want to keep turrets in just for the sake of having them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I'm saying that join date and skill level have nothing to do with the fun factor. If turrets aren't used, it's because they haven't been properly designed, not because they're inherently flawed.
If you make sentries weaker, you have to make them cheaper, if you make them cheaper, then you get more spam.
It feels like a 100 plasters over a wound that requires a bandage.
It isn't a gimmicky solution, it means you can have effective anti-structure options that come into play when people are working together.
It actually requires a situation to unfold, whereby a Gorge/Lerk/Skulk/Fade can all be in the action together. But if you made that combo lethal to structures (somehow) for example, it would give you an effective option.
It would also mean you wouldn't have to have sentry spam to combat things such as FOV for the sentries, and other issues that come from a Lerk being able to spend 5 minutes sniping sentries until you wipe out a farm. I'd rather be fighting the other team.
You just keep going round and round in circles adding more layers of damage based balance.
What ever way you balance it based on armour, cost and strength, you will always end up with 1000 turrets on a server.
Look at any other game that does sentries, and you won't find the issues you do in ns2/1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't have to make them cheaper if you make them weaker. That's the point.
Either they are too difficult to get rid of, in which case they are overpowered and need a nerf, or they are easy enough to get rid of, and therefore they don't need a nerf.
Bile bomb is a special case of sorts, gorges can't have a general purpose attack because they have healing, if they had a skulk level attack as well as healing they'd be overpowered, so instead they get a crappy general attack but a proper anti-structure attack.
But most aliens have some sort of attack that works on everything, so you can just balance things based on damage, because all aliens have abilities designed to just do damage to things.
Remove-it-because-it-doesn't-quite-work-perfectly-in-Build XXX is not a good strategy for making NS2 a fun game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is spot on. AI controlled static defense can also help bridge the skill gap between the teams, so the lesser skilled team is not steam rolled <b>too</b> quickly.
Static defense should ward off small scale harassment (eg. one or two marines/skulks), as well as giving the defenders an advantage against large scale attacks.
However, the attacking team should be able to overwhelm any static defense when the attackers have a large lead (in resource collection and territory domination). In Real Time Strategy games such as Starcraft, the winning team is able to produce larger armies, as well as replacing lost units quicker.
In NS2, however, due to the long evolving time, Aliens cannot hope to win quickly by simply launching kamikaze attacks repeatedly against Sentry fortified bases. Mature Whip was designed to be the Kharaa siege weapon, similar to the ARC in function, but is currently not fully implemented.
Marines, on the other hand, can repurchase weapons in seconds, hop through the Phase Gate, and return to the front line in under half a minute. Marines also have addition long ranged firepower from AI controlled ARCs to slowly melt away any static defense.
Kharaas are currently disadvantaged in those aspects. Until all the core game feature are complete, these problems will persist because of the overall game design. For example, simply adding the Onos to the game to counter Sentries will unbalance the game, as Marines do not yet have an effective anti-Onos weapon. Short term fixes may be possible, but only if they are not too time consuming to implement and undo.
Static defense should ward off small scale harassment (eg. one or two marines/skulks), as well as giving the defenders an advantage against large scale attacks.
However, the attacking team should be able to overwhelm any static defense when the attackers have a large lead (in resource collection and territory domination). In Real Time Strategy games such as Starcraft, the winning team is able to produce larger armies, as well as replacing lost units quicker.
In NS2, however, due to the long evolving time, Aliens cannot hope to win quickly by simply launching kamikaze attacks repeatedly against Sentry fortified bases. Mature Whip was designed to be the Kharaa siege weapon, similar to the ARC in function, but is currently not fully implemented.
Marines, on the other hand, can repurchase weapons in seconds, hop through the Phase Gate, and return to the front line in under half a minute. Marines also have addition long ranged firepower from AI controlled ARCs to slowly melt away any static defense.
Kharaas are currently disadvantaged in those aspects. Until all the core game feature are complete, these problems will persist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens aren't supposed to kamikaze, all aliens have high mobility so rather than dying, they should be retreating. Aliens don't have to commit like marines do.
The way to beat sentry spam is to build up a bunch of aliens and attack at once, marines have some pretty serious weak points in the form of infantry portals and power nodes, and if you destroy the comm chair (which is very very hard to cover completely with sentries due to its positioning in most rooms) you win automatically, you actually cannot spam enough sentries in a base to effectively stop that kind of attack, the game hits the entity limit quite quickly if you try.
The most frustrating part is it often seems nobody realizes that there is no strategic value to the game anymore no decisions to make, nothing and the game get prolonged in bad cases for hours.
The most frustrating part is it often seems nobody realizes that there is no strategic value to the game anymore no decisions to make, nothing and the game get prolonged in bad cases for hours.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Three or four fades all at once can easily kill a base full of marines.
If that were the case games would not be prolonged would they, infact they would end soon after second hive is done.
Only marines that waltz out get killed so often.
As Skulk just find a blindspot at only 1 Sentry (there is always 1!) bite it down. Now a other one has a blindspot!
The main problem is, that sentrys can only be repaired by MACs.
3 Sniper hits and my Pres are gone...
<b>And he wouldn't shut up about it. </b>
As commander I play a very lean-sentry game, and even that was not enough for him. He is just freaking out about them because he wants every game to be a shotgun rush.
And neither is a bunch of other stuff, including carapace, regen, stealth (maybe sneaking invisibly past turret arcs to bite their butts will be viable?)...
Especially in smaller pub games, where there's not as much organization AND there aren't marines scattered randomly all over the place to deal with small messes on short notice, that single skulk running around blowing stuff up is a pain in the butt who can easily inflict 20-30 rez worth of damage. Spending 20-30 rez to mostly secure an area against lone skulk harassment can be worth it.
If the problem is a staggering overabundance of Tres available so that turret farming occurs, the problem might be in the current Tres model, not the turrets. It might also be a mapping problem... not enough vents or alternative access to areas to get into blind spots. It might also be a player problem... those alternates exist, but your players can't find them. Or it might be a game-incompletion problem... the marines should have won an hour ago, but don't have heavy armor/ARCs that can pathfind woth a damn/an experienced commander, so they just haven't made that final push yet.
It's far too early in development to say "hey, that staple of RTS gaming, the static, no-management-required local defender, needs to go because it doesn't fit." Small tweaks like res costs, damage adjustment, tracking time, and the like are fine at the moment to keep betas playable, but removing turrets wholesale isn't a gameplay decision that should be made based on current beta play. And folks who don't like turrets decided long ago they shouldn't be in the game anyway, so we're not going to hear otherwise from them regardless of how well implemented they are.
<b>And he wouldn't shut up about it. </b>
As commander I play a very lean-sentry game, and even that was not enough for him. He is just freaking out about them because he wants every game to be a shotgun rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you just gave us all the insight we needed regarding this topic.
ns2 did not solve this problem, and currently turrets are cheap and I've seen games almost every room with 5+ turrets. In fact if marines want to win, they usually must turtle this way to win.
they must change how turret work, here are some ideas
1.bring back turret factories
2.increase the price of turrets
3.limit how many turrets can be within a room
4.reduce their usefulness (ex damage)
-
design of the game is still pretty poor aside from this problem.
Remove-it-because-it-doesn't-quite-work-perfectly-in-Build XXX is not a good strategy for making NS2 a fun game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is it good or fun, though? Why can't a phase gate with a marine guarding it suffice for map control instead of a static structure with an aimbot? Static structures in NS and TF2 are designed to be steamrolled by any team with basic coordination, so I don't think it's correct to say that static defense in these games is great and balanced because it can kill a bunch of newer players who lack enough skill and teamwork to make any progress.
Marine and alien strategies can remain diverse without the need for static defense.
They are NOT overpowered. They are completely worthless. Please stop coming into the topic and saying "they should change x about aliens to make it easier to kill turrets". Turrets are braindead easy to deal with: Just expand/tech while the moronic marines sit in one spot building sentries and wipe them out with superior tech.
It's like TF2 on attack/defend maps where engineer was mostly useless on attacker's side. Same concept.
<b>And he wouldn't shut up about it. </b>
As commander I play a very lean-sentry game, and even that was not enough for him. He is just freaking out about them because he wants every game to be a shotgun rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure which game you're talking about exactly (since this stuff happens every game) but if you're that "DrFunkenstein" guy then you don't understand how the game works.
Shotguns tech is the absolute best 15 res you can spend at the starting of the game in the current build. It allows every marine on your team to have near-permanent shotguns. You start out with enough res to build both ventilation and flight control RTs and ONE tech choice.
Spending the res on a robotics facility and FOUR sentries is HORRIBLY unproductive when the first 5 minutes of the game are all about denying the first alien hive. This isn't a shotgun rushing thing, that's not really a strategy anymore since all marines get perma-shotguns all game long.
Instead of actually trying to deny the first alien hive (again, if I'm thinking of the correct person) you instead deem protecting/capping a single resource tower more tower more important.
The best part is those sentries were totally useless. Because marines went both west and east, both routes to the bases were totally covered and not a single skulk got by. They were also totally occupied by the fact that their second unbuilt hive was getting harassed by 2-3 marines constantly.
Also, as far as ramboing goes, I don't think I've just ran straight to alien start a single game. I patrol Heli-xroads-SA over and over until I see a hive dropped and call it because your (and most commander) priorities are pretty much out of place.
Only marines that waltz out get killed so often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd think so but aliens have a kind of thing about working together, which is to say they don't.
I've never seen more than three fades at once and rarely more than two. Also of course you do need to be at the last marine base for this to work, otherwise you just push them back a bit.
Also it does take a few goes, you need to basically keep the marines as dead as possible while gorges and lerks and of course, you and the other fades do damage to the base, you might need to retreat a few times but if you keep it up, you will wear their structures down and start to push them out, but it does take a bit of coordination.
<!--quoteo(post=1856356:date=Jun 25 2011, 06:56 PM:name=meb3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb3 @ Jun 25 2011, 06:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is it good or fun, though? Why can't a phase gate with a marine guarding it suffice for map control instead of a static structure with an aimbot? Static structures in NS and TF2 are designed to be steamrolled by any team with basic coordination, so I don't think it's correct to say that static defense in these games is great and balanced because it can kill a bunch of newer players who lack enough skill and teamwork to make any progress.
Marine and alien strategies can remain diverse without the need for static defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because phase gates die very quickly, and marines having to sit and guard a room is not fun, as a general rule you cannot keep your marines in one place for long, they will go and find things to do on their own.
Watch some of the recent NS2HD videos, the recent dual perspective ones show him commanding a game, and show how helpful turrets can be when used right, as well as the problems of expecting players to guard things themselves.
Turrets are ultimately a distraction, they WILL die if you leave them alone but they will take time to do so, and that time is what gives marines a chance to phase in and defend the base, that is exactly what you need turrets for and exactly what they're supposed to do most of the time, they are something the aliens need to take out first, because they get shot up otherwise, either they spend time taking out the turrets or they have to retreat faster, either way the turrets protect the base.
I know what you're saying, but at the time players will exploit whatever method helps them win. Currently, that's spamming turrets. Once heavies and onos are in the game, we'll see less turrets.