<!--quoteo(post=1857204:date=Jun 29 2011, 06:24 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jun 29 2011, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The goal should be to stop revolving the entire game around the second hive.
Early turrets are only a problem now because they get in the way of the marines' only viable strategy ....quick early shotgun push to take out any 2nd hive.
This is in addition to more late game turret counters, better resource model and higher turret costs to prevent comms from relying on them too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nailed it.
Although it seems to be a consequence of the lack of third-tier content (and therefore no reason for getting a third Hive). I suspect this will be alleviated when both sides have their full arsenal of equipment.
<!--quoteo(post=1857265:date=Jun 30 2011, 02:10 AM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Jun 30 2011, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i also think that marine comms might want to research exosuit / jp / minigun instead of placing 20 turrets :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe, but it still won't stop the general mindset that turrets are necessary at the starting of the game. Happened in NS1 all the time despite it being a totally complete and balanced game. The most frustrating games ever were when some commander would get in the chair and drop a turret factory...
well, there will always be new / bad commanders. if they keep placing turrets and loose they will eventually think of something else, ask, or someone will tell then to try something different. you can't take out a feature just because ppl don't know how to use it right away.
<!--quoteo(post=1857268:date=Jun 30 2011, 02:51 AM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Jun 30 2011, 02:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well, there will always be new / bad commanders. if they keep placing turrets and loose they will eventually think of something else, ask, or someone will tell then to try something different. you can't take out a feature just because ppl don't know how to use it right away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You CAN take out a "feature" if it's worthless. They're not good early game, they're not good later on (trust me, when later tech is in they'll be worthless) so what good are they besides making new commanders think they're useful?
I don't find then useless at all. after getting shotties and same armour upgrades I usually try and establish forward bases with armouries and phasegates. 2-3 turrets there really help defending vs skulks while the marines run around looking for the 2nd hive.
maybe they become worse(unless spammed because of too much tres) later on, but then the turrets could be buffed, instead of taken out.
<!--quoteo(post=1857270:date=Jun 30 2011, 02:58 AM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Jun 30 2011, 02:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't find then useless at all. after getting shotties and same armour upgrades I usually try and establish forward bases with armouries and phasegates. 2-3 turrets there really help defending vs skulks while the marines run around looking for the 2nd hive.
maybe they become worse(unless spammed because of too much tres) later on, but then the turrets could be buffed, instead of taken out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what to say at this point since this argument goes back to the start of the thread. If you STILL think that sentries are beneficial to be placed before the second hive is up you're just bad and haven't played enough. That's all there is to it.
lol, if you say so.. but, if you have a forward base, and firepower researched to take down a hive. why not spend a few of the excess to keep the base from being "ninjad" by a solo skulk? makes it possible to attack with everyone and make the base secure, so you don't have to leave it alone, or have a marine stay.
but what do I know, you are clearly the more experienced player.. oh wait. I had the game before the alpha as well..
atm the game is mostly about the 2nd hive, next patch the fade will be reworked, probebly making it less important. and more things are bound to happen in the future. don't you think its better to balance it all instead of simply cutting the less refined parts?
<!--quoteo(post=1857277:date=Jun 30 2011, 03:24 AM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Jun 30 2011, 03:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol, if you say so.. but, if you have a forward base, and firepower researched to take down a hive. why not spend a few of the excess to keep the base from being "ninjad" by a solo skulk? makes it possible to attack with everyone and make the base secure, so you don't have to leave it alone, or have a marine stay.
but what do I know, you are clearly the more experienced player.. oh wait. I had the game before the alpha as well..
atm the game is mostly about the 2nd hive, next patch the fade will be reworked, probebly making it less important. and more things are bound to happen in the future. don't you think its better to balance it all instead of simply cutting the less refined parts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sigh, I think this is probably the 7th or 8th time saying this in this thread alone but there's no point of having another base before the second hive is up. If you have no base, then there is NO chance that non-existent base can be solo'd by a skulk. Besides, why the hell would a skulk be worrying about some worthless locked down hive that provides nearly nothing for marines when they've got their own hive that's being built and probably getting assaulted by marines?
Also, if you can't maintain at MINIMUM a 4-1 ratio on marines, you're in the "bad" category.
Anyway, I'm sure things will be reworked. The flow of the game will obviously be different by the time it actually comes out, but there's no harm discussing a part of the game for the current build. Who knows, maybe a lot of this stuff wasn't on the developers minds and this thread caused them to think about it more clearly? It's never pointless to discuss an aspect of the game unless stuff is confirmed to be changing by the developer.
Edit: I also want to add that stationary defenses aren't really fun to play against for any of the FPS crowd. It wasn't fun to show up to a turreted marine base as a skulk in NS1, and it sure as hell isn't fun here either.
<!--quoteo(post=1857279:date=Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you have no base, then there is NO chance that non-existent base can be solo'd by a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That it true, but why should everyone have to play the game the same way? I have been very successful with forward bases. the alien rambos try and take it, spending less time defending the hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1857279:date=Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Besides, why the hell would a skulk be worrying about some worthless locked down hive that provides nearly nothing for marines when they've got their own hive that's being built and probably getting assaulted by marines?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> same thing here, you can't predict the enemies every move. sure, they should be there helping if the 2nd hive us under attack. but if one of them don't 2 turrets are a good investment for a potential forward base
<!--quoteo(post=1857279:date=Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, I'm sure things will be reworked. The flow of the game will obviously be different by the time it actually comes out, but there's no harm discussing a part of the game for the current build. Who knows, maybe a lot of this stuff wasn't on the developers minds and this thread caused them to think about it more clearly? It's never pointless to discuss an aspect of the game unless stuff is confirmed to be changing by the developer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes its good to talk about things. most ppl seem to be in agreement, don't spend your 1st resources placing a few turrets. get shotguns, some upgrades, observatory, extractors, extra ip. get scanning and look for the 2nd hive.
now, if I want to place an extra armory and maybe 2 turrets at the frontlines, or in a tech-room, why not? the marines wont have to run as much and there is 1 less tp to worry about having to scout. I'm not saying that I'm the best comm out there, so maybe I'm wrong. and in that case what should I spend the 10-20 res on that's so much better?
<!--quoteo(post=1857279:date=Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: I also want to add that stationary defenses aren't really fun to play against for any of the FPS crowd. It wasn't fun to show up to a turreted marine base as a skulk in NS1, and it sure as hell isn't fun here either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't really think you can speak for the whole FPS crowd, but I agree with the current implementation of turrets its not that fun. but if you face just a few I enjoy trying to dodge around and taking them out.
<!--quoteo(post=1857279:date=Jun 30 2011, 04:34 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 30 2011, 04:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: I also want to add that stationary defenses aren't really fun to play against for any of the FPS crowd. It wasn't fun to show up to a turreted marine base as a skulk in NS1, and it sure as hell isn't fun here either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This brings up an interesting point like should the free/cannon-fodder/meat-shield alien aka "skulk" expect anything less then getting liquefied when entering marine base. Also attacking marine start should be something the alien-team must do cooperatively. The solo-skulk killing everything is unacceptable, and turrets are a convenient countermeasure. But that's not saying we couldn't have other forms of defense. I formally propose the flamethrower, automatic-grenade-spammer, and minelayer turrets >:D
<!--quoteo(post=1857320:date=Jun 30 2011, 10:46 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 30 2011, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This brings up an interesting point like should the free/cannon-fodder/meat-shield alien aka "skulk" expect anything less then getting liquefied when entering marine base. Also attacking marine start should be something the alien-team must do cooperatively. The solo-skulk killing everything is unacceptable, and turrets are a convenient countermeasure. But that's not saying we couldn't have other forms of defense. I formally propose the flamethrower, automatic-grenade-spammer, and minelayer turrets >:D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Skulk needs xenocide?
If, for example, xenocide did more to structures, but doesn't instantly kill a group of marines, then it could be viable as a late-game upgrade (that may have to be purchased with PRes each life).
<!--quoteo(post=1856442:date=Jun 26 2011, 03:59 AM:name=aCId_rAIn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aCId_rAIn @ Jun 26 2011, 03:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm pretty sure by next patch this will be less of an issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think things would really improve if team res wasn't used to construct sentries. That way the commander would be a bit more limited in his ability to place them a lot, and the resources wouldn't be training from research that helps marines individually.
Sentry spamming is and will be a problem for a long time unless it is reworked, removed or rendered completely useless. Right now two res nodes are enough to gain everything get few upgrades you can forget the higher level weapons just make turrets to your natural resnode, base and move to the next room spam turrets and move on, you could ignore second hive too or alien rts, but why bother its not like weapons/lifeform cost anything.
The same happened in NS1 it kept going on for builds even after it was rendered less than effective, why? Because in general people playing are stupid, the small time it prolongs the game is hardly a gain or anything it is just prolonging the inevitable.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2011
Both teams need Team Res "sinks" that require TRes upkeep late game.
I would suggest adding a TRes cost to repairing Power Nodes (the Commander has to replace the Node just like other structures) for Marines. For Kharaa, (commander placed) normal Cysts would also cost Team Res, and form the "backbone" of the infestation.
What about Gorge spawned mini Cysts? Their health would be significantly (-80%?) lower than normal Cysts, so they would serve as backup infestation nodes or for fast infestation expansion, but could never replace normal Cysts that cost TRes.
A simple and feasible solution for fixing sentries would be put a build limit on them. For example, you can on build a total of X sentries in this area. Or, you can only build X amount of sentries in total on the entire map.
That's what I think needs done. Because sentry spam is annoying and slows down the game drastically.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1859376:date=Jul 10 2011, 03:29 AM:name=LtJuno)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LtJuno @ Jul 10 2011, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A simple and feasible solution for fixing sentries would be put a build limit on them. For example, you can on build a total of X sentries in this area. Or, you can only build X amount of sentries in total on the entire map.
That's what I think needs done. Because sentry spam is annoying and slows down the game drastically.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Each area of the map has structure count limits. <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Globals.lua)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Globals.lua)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->kMaxEntitiesInRadius = 25<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even if we add Sentry count limits, the problem of excessive Team Resources remains. The Commanders would simply clog the map with other structures like Armories, Infantry Portals, Whips, Crags, and so on.
<!--quoteo(post=1859394:date=Jul 10 2011, 07:56 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jul 10 2011, 07:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Each area of the map has structure count limits. Even if we add Sentry count limits, the problem of excessive Team Resources remains. The Commanders would simply clog the map with other structures like Armories, Infantry Portals, Whips, Crags, and so on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Early turrets are only a problem now because they get in the way of the marines' only viable strategy ....quick early shotgun push to take out any 2nd hive.
This is in addition to more late game turret counters, better resource model and higher turret costs to prevent comms from relying on them too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nailed it.
Although it seems to be a consequence of the lack of third-tier content (and therefore no reason for getting a third Hive). I suspect this will be alleviated when both sides have their full arsenal of equipment.
Maybe, but it still won't stop the general mindset that turrets are necessary at the starting of the game. Happened in NS1 all the time despite it being a totally complete and balanced game. The most frustrating games ever were when some commander would get in the chair and drop a turret factory...
if they keep placing turrets and loose they will eventually think of something else, ask, or someone will tell then to try something different.
you can't take out a feature just because ppl don't know how to use it right away.
if they keep placing turrets and loose they will eventually think of something else, ask, or someone will tell then to try something different.
you can't take out a feature just because ppl don't know how to use it right away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You CAN take out a "feature" if it's worthless. They're not good early game, they're not good later on (trust me, when later tech is in they'll be worthless) so what good are they besides making new commanders think they're useful?
2-3 turrets there really help defending vs skulks while the marines run around looking for the 2nd hive.
maybe they become worse(unless spammed because of too much tres) later on, but then the turrets could be buffed, instead of taken out.
2-3 turrets there really help defending vs skulks while the marines run around looking for the 2nd hive.
maybe they become worse(unless spammed because of too much tres) later on, but then the turrets could be buffed, instead of taken out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what to say at this point since this argument goes back to the start of the thread. If you STILL think that sentries are beneficial to be placed before the second hive is up you're just bad and haven't played enough. That's all there is to it.
but, if you have a forward base, and firepower researched to take down a hive. why not spend a few of the excess to keep the base from being "ninjad" by a solo skulk?
makes it possible to attack with everyone and make the base secure, so you don't have to leave it alone, or have a marine stay.
but what do I know, you are clearly the more experienced player.. oh wait. I had the game before the alpha as well..
atm the game is mostly about the 2nd hive, next patch the fade will be reworked, probebly making it less important.
and more things are bound to happen in the future.
don't you think its better to balance it all instead of simply cutting the less refined parts?
but, if you have a forward base, and firepower researched to take down a hive. why not spend a few of the excess to keep the base from being "ninjad" by a solo skulk?
makes it possible to attack with everyone and make the base secure, so you don't have to leave it alone, or have a marine stay.
but what do I know, you are clearly the more experienced player.. oh wait. I had the game before the alpha as well..
atm the game is mostly about the 2nd hive, next patch the fade will be reworked, probebly making it less important.
and more things are bound to happen in the future.
don't you think its better to balance it all instead of simply cutting the less refined parts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sigh, I think this is probably the 7th or 8th time saying this in this thread alone but there's no point of having another base before the second hive is up. If you have no base, then there is NO chance that non-existent base can be solo'd by a skulk. Besides, why the hell would a skulk be worrying about some worthless locked down hive that provides nearly nothing for marines when they've got their own hive that's being built and probably getting assaulted by marines?
Also, if you can't maintain at MINIMUM a 4-1 ratio on marines, you're in the "bad" category.
Anyway, I'm sure things will be reworked. The flow of the game will obviously be different by the time it actually comes out, but there's no harm discussing a part of the game for the current build. Who knows, maybe a lot of this stuff wasn't on the developers minds and this thread caused them to think about it more clearly? It's never pointless to discuss an aspect of the game unless stuff is confirmed to be changing by the developer.
Edit: I also want to add that stationary defenses aren't really fun to play against for any of the FPS crowd. It wasn't fun to show up to a turreted marine base as a skulk in NS1, and it sure as hell isn't fun here either.
That it true, but why should everyone have to play the game the same way? I have been very successful with forward bases.
the alien rambos try and take it, spending less time defending the hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1857279:date=Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Besides, why the hell would a skulk be worrying about some worthless locked down hive that provides nearly nothing for marines when they've got their own hive that's being built and probably getting assaulted by marines?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
same thing here, you can't predict the enemies every move.
sure, they should be there helping if the 2nd hive us under attack. but if one of them don't 2 turrets are a good investment for a potential forward base
<!--quoteo(post=1857279:date=Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, I'm sure things will be reworked. The flow of the game will obviously be different by the time it actually comes out, but there's no harm discussing a part of the game for the current build. Who knows, maybe a lot of this stuff wasn't on the developers minds and this thread caused them to think about it more clearly? It's never pointless to discuss an aspect of the game unless stuff is confirmed to be changing by the developer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes its good to talk about things. most ppl seem to be in agreement, don't spend your 1st resources placing a few turrets.
get shotguns, some upgrades, observatory, extractors, extra ip. get scanning and look for the 2nd hive.
now, if I want to place an extra armory and maybe 2 turrets at the frontlines, or in a tech-room, why not? the marines wont have to run as much and there is 1 less tp to worry about having to scout.
I'm not saying that I'm the best comm out there, so maybe I'm wrong. and in that case what should I spend the 10-20 res on that's so much better?
<!--quoteo(post=1857279:date=Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 30 2011, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: I also want to add that stationary defenses aren't really fun to play against for any of the FPS crowd. It wasn't fun to show up to a turreted marine base as a skulk in NS1, and it sure as hell isn't fun here either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really think you can speak for the whole FPS crowd, but I agree with the current implementation of turrets its not that fun.
but if you face just a few I enjoy trying to dodge around and taking them out.
This brings up an interesting point like should the free/cannon-fodder/meat-shield alien aka "skulk" expect anything less then getting liquefied when entering marine base. Also attacking marine start should be something the alien-team must do cooperatively. The solo-skulk killing everything is unacceptable, and turrets are a convenient countermeasure. But that's not saying we couldn't have other forms of defense. I formally propose the flamethrower, automatic-grenade-spammer, and minelayer turrets >:D
Just want to note that I'm not a troll and I'm totally serious about this.
Skulk needs xenocide?
If, for example, xenocide did more to structures, but doesn't instantly kill a group of marines, then it could be viable as a late-game upgrade (that may have to be purchased with PRes each life).
Sooooo
The same happened in NS1 it kept going on for builds even after it was rendered less than effective, why? Because in general people playing are stupid, the small time it prolongs the game is hardly a gain or anything it is just prolonging the inevitable.
I would suggest adding a TRes cost to repairing Power Nodes (the Commander has to replace the Node just like other structures) for Marines. For Kharaa, (commander placed) normal Cysts would also cost Team Res, and form the "backbone" of the infestation.
What about Gorge spawned mini Cysts? Their health would be significantly (-80%?) lower than normal Cysts, so they would serve as backup infestation nodes or for fast infestation expansion, but could never replace normal Cysts that cost TRes.
For example, you can on build a total of X sentries in this area.
Or, you can only build X amount of sentries in total on the entire map.
That's what I think needs done. Because sentry spam is annoying and slows down the game drastically.
For example, you can on build a total of X sentries in this area.
Or, you can only build X amount of sentries in total on the entire map.
That's what I think needs done. Because sentry spam is annoying and slows down the game drastically.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Each area of the map has structure count limits. <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Globals.lua)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Globals.lua)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->kMaxEntitiesInRadius = 25<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even if we add Sentry count limits, the problem of excessive Team Resources remains. The Commanders would simply clog the map with other structures like Armories, Infantry Portals, Whips, Crags, and so on.
Even if we add Sentry count limits, the problem of excessive Team Resources remains. The Commanders would simply clog the map with other structures like Armories, Infantry Portals, Whips, Crags, and so on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah you got a point. =/