Can we please take sentries out of the game?

1356

Comments

  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,883
    edited June 2011
    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 25 2011, 10:55 PM) »
    You'd think so but aliens have a kind of thing about working together, which is to say they don't.

    I've never seen more than three fades at once and rarely more than two. Also of course you do need to be at the last marine base for this to work, otherwise you just push them back a bit.

    Also it does take a few goes, you need to basically keep the marines as dead as possible while gorges and lerks and of course, you and the other fades do damage to the base, you might need to retreat a few times but if you keep it up, you will wear their structures down and start to push them out, but it does take a bit of coordination.



    Because phase gates die very quickly, and marines having to sit and guard a room is not fun, as a general rule you cannot keep your marines in one place for long, they will go and find things to do on their own.

    Watch some of the recent NS2HD videos, the recent dual perspective ones show him commanding a game, and show how helpful turrets can be when used right, as well as the problems of expecting players to guard things themselves.

    Turrets are ultimately a distraction, they WILL die if you leave them alone but they will take time to do so, and that time is what gives marines a chance to phase in and defend the base, that is exactly what you need turrets for and exactly what they're supposed to do most of the time, they are something the aliens need to take out first, because they get shot up otherwise, either they spend time taking out the turrets or they have to retreat faster, either way the turrets protect the base.


    I thought NS2HD's video was a prime example of why turrets are so poor UNLESS spammed in every room.

    He didn't lose because he didn't have a power pack, he lost because aliens could get into the room comfortably and keep harassing the non existent defences. Even if he had a power pack, the aliens could have taken that down first and you'd still have the same problem.

    You need good rear defences in ns2 before you can even think about taking control further up the map, otherwise you are constantly running back to re-build and defend, and when that happens aliens re-take any gains. As we saw when everyone ran back to defend.

    The problem throughout that whole game was that because the team was spread out, they couldn't concentrate on pushing forward or properly attacking. Because you are constantly having to deal with 'defensive problems'.

    I challenge NS2HD to show me a win in an EVEN game (sometimes you can dominate a map as Marines with shotgun rushes when teams are unbalanced) that doesn't involve 1000 sentries.

    Seriously, I watched that thinking he was doing very well as a commander. The team was sticking together and fighting together... but it all went wrong because of a stretched team and lack of sentries.

    This why you need one or two really powerful sentries in each room, and can't go down to soloing aliens as well. But instead have to be tackled by 'team-play abilities' such as combining some sort of Gorge Bile Bomb that shuts off the guns, whilst other aliens attack. Or other combined team based abilities that promote team-play.

    So instead of 'any alien' (maybe excluding fade for obvious reasons) being able to get in the 'right position' from frontal attack, you require two aliens to be in the same place and situation on the map. But then you give that team-play element a huge bonus for doing so, so sentries go down very quickly.

    If aliens can get behind, it is because they worked really hard to get behind them or used vents effectively.

    Then you don't have to counter with 1000 sentries on every map, which then drags games out for hours.

    Seriously, UWE please do something about this.
  • acid_rainacid_rain NS2 NAPT Mascot Orlando, FL Join Date: 2010-02-16 Member: 70588Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 216 mod
    I'm pretty sure by next patch this will be less of an issue.
  • TrueVeritasTrueVeritas Join Date: 2006-10-20 Member: 58082Members Posts: 349 Fully active user
    QUOTE (aCId_rAIn @ Jun 26 2011, 03:28 AM) »
    Give it some time, Veritas...
    I know what you're saying, but at the time players will exploit whatever method helps them win. Currently, that's spamming turrets. Once heavies and onos are in the game, we'll see less turrets.


    QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 25 2011, 01:59 PM) »
    I don't really understand why some people are saying that I think turrets are overpowered.

    They are NOT overpowered. They are completely worthless. Please stop coming into the topic and saying "they should change x about aliens to make it easier to kill turrets". Turrets are braindead easy to deal with: Just expand/tech while the moronic marines sit in one spot building sentries and wipe them out with superior tech.

    It's like TF2 on attack/defend maps where engineer was mostly useless on attacker's side. Same concept.


    Just want to reiterate.
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,883
    edited June 2011
    Sentry design is downright poor, and the implementation is even worse.

    If you are a Marine, you want to be able to lock down your rear defences so you can actually PUSH forward without having to go back and repair and deal with literally 1000s of tasks at once.

    I'm not saying that aliens should find it really hard to take them down, but that they should have to actually WORK to do so. Not just leap over the top from the front, and munch on them once behind.

    178/179 release just made the game feel a hell lot more like ns1, and you can feel all the issues with ns1 creeping back in with this sentry spam.

    Please don't keep adding layers upon layers of counter attacks... next we'll have buildings being electrified re-introduced, and games will get even longer!
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members Posts: 3,854
    That's how it works now. Overlapping turret coverage requires either a lot of aliens at once to kill, or you need to keep the marines guessing and strike all over the place so they can't react, both of which are good things to encourage.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,990 Advanced user
    Although Sentries have limited turning while armed, each Sentry is still capable of turning the full 360º. I think reducing the Sentries' down time when manually changing facing direction will reward attentive commanders, while reducing the number of Sentries required for good area coverage.
  • ZurikiZuriki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75105Members Posts: 503
    Never had an issue with turrets as either Marine or Alien. The only issue comes from turret spam which lags the server and makes it difficult for aliens to push into a room without half the force decimated by lag + 50 sentries.
    image
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members Posts: 1,731
    QUOTE
    178/179 release just made the game feel a hell lot more like ns1, and you can feel all the issues with ns1 creeping back in with this sentry spam.


    Sentries we're barely used in late NS1, maybe 1 game over 100, mines were used almost every game to protect pg. In big games (> 20 players) you don't really need static defense because there is always someone to protect you stuff.
  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Members Posts: 610
    edited June 2011
    FWIW I think turrets are the worst unit in the game and should be removed, too. Static defense is really boring to both use and play against. Mines in general provide a good enough base level of time-buying protection for structures without the irritating "being shot at by the scenery" effect.

    The good thing about mines (and the bad thing about turrets) is that you can only be killed by mines if you are actually choosing to attack whatever it is they're defending, the element of choice behind it removes some of the frustration of being killed by a lazy fire and forget mechanism.

    I think it may also have something to do with the fact that additional turrets don't really see the same kind of diminishing returns as additional mine packs do. There's only so much surface area of buildings to cover, but turret fire just keeps on adding up.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members Posts: 3,854
    QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jun 26 2011, 12:41 PM) »
    The good thing about mines (and the bad thing about turrets) is that you can only be killed by mines if you are actually choosing to attack whatever it is they're defending, the element of choice behind it removes some of the frustration of being killed by a lazy fire and forget mechanism.


    That's the case with turrets unless they learned to walk since last I played.

    If they have learned to walk I would enjoy marine commander a lot more, means I don't need to rely on the players so much.
  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Members Posts: 610
    Well, for a start you also get shot simply by passing through the area or attempting to skirmish nearby. I don't like it, it's frustrating for me to play against. Kind of like how engies in TF2 get right on my ######. I can see the opposite point of view though.

    Oh and a couple of other reasons why I prefer mines over turrets is that they're a one-shot use and satisfying to use because they generally 1 shot kill most things without being overpowered. Kinda like vultures/spider mines in BW I guess.
  • xposed-xposed- Join Date: 2007-09-23 Member: 62412Members, Constellation Posts: 236
    Onos.

    (when its in :))
    image xposed
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,990 Advanced user
    QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jun 26 2011, 04:41 AM) »
    I think it may also have something to do with the fact that additional turrets don't really see the same kind of diminishing returns as additional mine packs do. There's only so much surface area of buildings to cover, but turret fire just keeps on adding up.


    Yes, that is a major problem with Sentries. Once they reach a critical mass, they are very difficult to destroy because of their overlapping fields of fire.

    Currently, one or two Sentries provide too little cover, but in large numbers, they become extremely effective area denial tools.

    IMO the effectiveness of static defense should provide diminishing return, with each additional Sentry providing less benefit than the previous one placed in the same area.
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,883
    I like the idea of having mines instead of sentries.

    The fundamental problem is not sentries, but probably to do with the awful communication system between the commander and marines.
  • meb3meb3 Join Date: 2011-06-23 Member: 106078Members Posts: 82
    Mines are probably the single most frustrating thing to play against as an alien in NS right now, especially since they are easy to spam at a low cost and you can hide them in structures.

    I just do not get it. I guess I will have to mod any static defense out and run my own server, because I still do not see how "your team will run off and want to do other stuff" is justification enough for such a boring element in an FPS.
    image
    exertus.meb
    #exertus / #team.fantasy @ Quakenet
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi! Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation Posts: 6,132
    edited June 2011
    QUOTE (meb3 @ Jun 26 2011, 05:14 PM) »
    for such a boring element in an FPS.


    It's an RTS/FPS hybrid. So believe it or not, there are RTS elements and FPS elements.
    blah blah blah
  • kai-kai- Join Date: 2011-05-14 Member: 98679Members Posts: 15
    Limiting turret spam

    How about limiting the amount of structures based on power draw?

    For example, only allowing maximum 5 sentries per power node - any more degrades performance of the sentries (slower target acquisition and rof) additional sentries would require additional power packs.
  • meb3meb3 Join Date: 2011-06-23 Member: 106078Members Posts: 82
    QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jun 26 2011, 12:17 PM) »
    It's an RTS/FPS hybrid. So believe it or not, there are RTS elements and FPS elements.

    I meant FPS/RTS hybrid. Thanks Thaldarin!
    image
    exertus.meb
    #exertus / #team.fantasy @ Quakenet
  • TrueVeritasTrueVeritas Join Date: 2006-10-20 Member: 58082Members Posts: 349 Fully active user
    QUOTE (kai- @ Jun 26 2011, 12:47 PM) »
    Limiting turret spam

    How about limiting the amount of structures based on power draw?

    For example, only allowing maximum 5 sentries per power node - any more degrades performance of the sentries (slower target acquisition and rof) additional sentries would require additional power packs.


    Sentries should currently NOT BE DROPPED because it does not benefit the marine team enough to replace early tech. It doesn't matter if you nerfed, buffed, or limited them. They will still be worthless unless serious gameplay changes are made.
  • layzorclayzorc Join Date: 2011-06-18 Member: 105198Members Posts: 22 Advanced user
    There is definitely a lag factor with sentries and hydras. Not sure how to fix this problem as the RTS part of the game is so much fun. I just switched to the fastest internet possible in my area (10 MBs to 36MBs). The game is fine until the marine start gets about 10 sentries up. I never played NS1 very much, but played quake2's Gloom that was similar. The turrets in Gloom had faster turn rate but shoot 1 laser bullet that would insta-gib a skulk. You could put 3 of these turrets up in a room and it was very deadly. They were accurate but very slow firing. Not sure if this idea would help things be less laggy on the turret side:

    Sentries need to turn faster fire slower and do more dmg per shot. I think if they were deadlier you can spam less and even create a maximum sentries per room. Something like 3-4 sentries would be good that way you can expand faster. Also create some other weapons that use less lag such as mines, laser trip mines, walls, and some alert lights that start blinking when an enemy is nearby. Again I am not very smart when working with network lag in games and code ( have tried creating Java games I suck). I was just reading through this massive wall of posts and thought I would try and help and you could do same thing with hydras.

    The idea is to make the turrets very accurate but possible to destroy even with the skulk as a skulk can time each turret burst of fire and move when turret is about to fire again. If skulk doesn't move fast enough then he dead with one shot. This adds a little bit of skill to killing the turrets instead of just jumping behind and destroying it every time and making the commander spam more turrets.
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 1,779 admin
    QUOTE (Runteh @ Jun 26 2011, 06:34 PM) »
    I challenge NS2HD to show me a win in an EVEN game (sometimes you can dominate a map as Marines with shotgun rushes when teams are unbalanced) that doesn't involve 1000 sentries.


    I don't want to get drawn into being this thread's anecdotal source of balance evidence. But this is a clear answer to your challenge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI6HN405ljA.
    The fastest way to contact me is via @hugh_jeremy on Twitter! Add me on Steam: Strayan. I do not check forum PMs.
    Keep up to date on what is going on with: Unknown Worlds | Natural Selection 2 | Subnautica
    Chat with the UWE team on Twitter | The best way to be notified about Subnautica updates is to sign up to our development newsletters
  • TrueVeritasTrueVeritas Join Date: 2006-10-20 Member: 58082Members Posts: 349 Fully active user
    QUOTE (NS2HD @ Jun 26 2011, 04:36 PM) »
    I don't want to get drawn into being this thread's anecdotal source of balance evidence. But this is a clear answer to your challenge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI6HN405ljA.


    Wow, I'm not sure you could have picked a better game to support my opinion.

    You dropped 2 sentries and a robotics facility which ended up firing what, once? Twice all game?

    You picked up weapons 1 which makes LMGs kill skulks with 9 bullets instead of 10 and has little effect on shotguns, instead of armor 0 which saves your marines from the 2bite1site syndrome.

    On top of that, aliens waited about 8 minutes into the game to drop the hive for whatever reason.

    Again: Sentries are not only unnecessary to win games, but you effectively lose resources placing them since they could have been used on other upgrades.
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,883
    QUOTE (NS2HD @ Jun 26 2011, 10:36 PM) »
    I don't want to get drawn into being this thread's anecdotal source of balance evidence. But this is a clear answer to your challenge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI6HN405ljA.


    How was that an 'even' game... the aliens were awful, and you had a team of Marines who actually stuck together.

    95% of public games look nothing like that unless you have terribly stacked sides.

    Show me a beta 179 game where aliens put up a fight, and there is no way to push forward without having to worry about rear defence that does not require a load of sentries.

    I've played plenty of clan matches that were a white wash. I haven't played any even ns2 games that didn't last 40+ minutes and require 1000 sentries.

    I commanded a game today that we won, it probably lasted a good 40+ minutes. I had to lock down the whole map to get the team to actually push into hive territory. When the aliens realised they were losing, some RQ way before the game was up.. it would have lasted longer.

    But it wouldn't have been that way if I had not locked down pretty much every room with sentries.

  • IcemanUnlimitedIcemanUnlimited Join Date: 2011-06-26 Member: 106516Members Posts: 15
    Make it an option to disable sentries in a server? Then everyone can be happy..
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 4,983 mod
    QUOTE (NS2HD @ Jun 26 2011, 02:36 PM) »
    I don't want to get drawn into being this thread's anecdotal source of balance evidence. But this is a clear answer to your challenge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI6HN405ljA.


    Yeah, the marine team was clearly skilled stacked that game. You could tell the aliens were gonna lose when it took them 7 mins to start building the 2nd hive. The 2nd hive should be the first (or at least 2nd) structure you drop for aliens because fades are so critical to winning. However, that was some very good commanding there NS2HD.

    With regards to sentries, I find the two most important uses are
    1. Slowing down alien attacks (i.e. they have to target the sentries, rather than other critical structures, first)
    2. Reducing the need for marines to defend rooms

    Quite simply, I want my marine to always be on the attack (it leads to victory and they also have more fun). Sentries allow me to do this very effectively, or, if my marines need to come back to defend, gives them more time to retreat. This is more important for larger maps (e.g. summit) or small matches (~6v6 or less) since you don't have enough marine players to cover the territory you need to defend.

    However, the sentry spam has become pretty bad in the past few patches (similar to the hydra spam of previous patches), that some type of limit is needed (with appropriate changes to ensure they don't become totally useless).


  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    its been said before multiple times in threads that are still on front page:

    1. increase the price to purchase to stop farming
    2. increase the damage inflicted to make them more useful
    3. possibly increase their FOV to include 360 ala ns1 to once again stop farming for sake of covering sectors.

    i really wish they gave access to these small differences so we could test them on some servers first to hone in on the exact numbers..
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Members Posts: 805
    edited June 2011
    QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 26 2011, 11:33 PM) »
    its been said before multiple times in threads that are still on front page:

    1. increase the price to purchase to stop farming
    2. increase the damage inflicted to make them more useful
    3. possibly increase their FOV to include 360 ala ns1 to once again stop farming for sake of covering sectors.

    i really wish they gave access to these small differences so we could test them on some servers first to hone in on the exact numbers..


    on top of this, i would also like to add turret factories played huge part in this problem.

    in ns1, they controlled placement (range) of turrets, and gave good drawback to having turrets - since if you wanted turrets you must have turret factory and they're pretty costly.

    right now, commanders can lame up the whole room with unlimited spread throughout the whole room, and turrets are cheap.
    right now, their is no drawback in building turrets.

    since power nodes act like turret factory, we must put power usage into power nodes.
    each room can only hold certain amount of buildings, more buildings would mean more power draining from the power node.

    this I can stop this spam to some degree, but increasing turrets costs would go along great with this idea.

    if this isn't good idea, we must bring back some drawback in building turrets as we had in ns1, bring back turret factory.
  • TrueVeritasTrueVeritas Join Date: 2006-10-20 Member: 58082Members Posts: 349 Fully active user
    QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 26 2011, 06:33 PM) »
    its been said before multiple times in threads that are still on front page:

    1. increase the price to purchase to stop farming
    2. increase the damage inflicted to make them more useful
    3. possibly increase their FOV to include 360 ala ns1 to once again stop farming for sake of covering sectors.

    i really wish they gave access to these small differences so we could test them on some servers first to hone in on the exact numbers..


    You can't just change numbers to make them balanced or good, unless they're ridiculously cheap (5 res) and just one will cover a resource tower.

    IMO if they really need to be in the game they should be mobile like the arc or at the very least whips so they can move up with a marine squad. Even then they're still pretty crappy compared to other tech.
  • TrueVeritasTrueVeritas Join Date: 2006-10-20 Member: 58082Members Posts: 349 Fully active user
    edited June 2011
    QUOTE (luns @ Jun 26 2011, 07:05 PM) »
    on top of this, i would also like to add turret factories played huge part in this problem.

    in ns1, they controlled placement (range) of turrets, and gave good drawback to having turrets - since if you wanted turrets you must have turret factory and they're pretty costly.

    right now, commanders can lame up the whole room with unlimited spread throughout the whole room, and turrets are cheap.
    right now, their is no drawback in building turrets.

    since power nodes act like turret factory, we must put power usage into power nodes.
    each room can only hold certain amount of buildings, more buildings would mean more power draining from the power node.

    this I can stop this spam to some degree, but increasing turrets costs would go along great with this idea.

    if this isn't good idea, we must bring back some drawback in building turrets as we had in ns1, bring back turret factory.


    No no no no no no no. Read the damn thread. Increasing turrets and putting in turret factories would mean commanders would spend even MORE resources on that worthless crap.

    Either they need to be reworked completely or taken out of the game.

    Edit: The issue is that stationary defenses don't work for an ATTACKING team (nor are they fun to play against).
  • SkwareSkware Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58125Members Posts: 113
    Don't sentries cost PRes?
Sign In or Register to comment.