To Bathroom Monkey. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, yet is it just that; an opinion. My purpose is to gather others opinions to rally an effort. I am hoping that if the majority feels this is something that should be changed, then the devs would be willing to implement that change.
I did a small scan for dedicated threads to this topic, but did not find one which encompassed both skulks and marines. Most were just one sided for marines or aliens, or off topic posts in random threads, or rants with no real content or reasoning. I intended for this thread to be the collection of those posts. If I missed the thread dedicated to this topic then it was not on purpose.
Sorry if I offended you with my choice of words, but I just do not undersand the reasoning behind the obstructive models.
During playtesting, we were very critical. We had fights with Flayra over things (like nukes) and whined and complained with the best of them. Not ONCE did anyone complain about the skulk bite or LMG sprite. We had a list of over 800 bugs, and guess what wasn't on there?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not entirely fair to be mad at this guy for what other people have posted on the subject.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. It's not. But bringing up a whole new thread <i>immediately</i>, from a similar thread was not a great idea.
Here's my point-- and, much as I love this community, this is the <b>biggest</b> problem I have with it, which just happened to boil over in this thread-- is that this sort of point is often made: Look at all the people that are complaining with me! This <b>must</b> be changed, or the devs a) are egotistical jerks, or b) completely ignorant, or c) don't care about the community and just get off on enforcing their draconian vision upon this game.
But for the nth time, the post on this subject is also filled with people who disagree with the point being made. It's been like this since the beginning of the boards. There are no black and white answers on these subjects, but people use them to make black and white judgements on the devs' motives, regardless.
It's a wee bit frustrating.
Edit: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->During playtesting, we were very critical.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed-- I <b>hated</b> the idea of the eyes-in-the-mouth thing when it came out . . . then when I played with it (after playing with the default, non-'intrusive' model), I was sold. It just added <b>so</b> much that it eventually got my vote . . .
Further edit: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sorry if I offended you with my choice of words, but I just do not undersand the reasoning behind the obstructive models. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough . . . as I've said, words like 'audacity' are fairly loaded when used in reference to devs' decisions. There are no secret conspiracies or head games coming into play here. Trust me, everyone, <b>especially</b> Flayra, wants this to be the best game it can possibly be-- but just because they don't immediately embrace a certain opinion <i>doesn't</i> mean that there's any foul play afoot, or that they are trying to voluntarily harm the community.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ruri+Dec 14 2002, 04:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ruri @ Dec 14 2002, 04:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To Bathroom Monkey. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, yet is it just that; an opinion. My purpose is to gather others opinions to rally an effort. I am hoping that if the majority feels this is something that should be changed, then the devs would be willing to implement that change.
I did a small scan for dedicated threads to this topic, but did not find one which encompassed both skulks and marines. Most were just one sided for marines or aliens, or off topic posts in random threads, or rants with no real content or reasoning. I intended for this thread to be the collection of those posts. If I missed the thread dedicated to this topic then it was not on purpose.
Sorry if I offended you with my choice of words, but I just do not undersand the reasoning behind the obstructive models.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> /me cries.
The people just do not learn.
/me looks up at the link labled "Search".
There have been so many different posts on this it is unbelievable. There have been threads on just the muzzle flash... threads on the skulk bite... threads on both. BM has every right to express his discontent with seeing the same sh*t over and over again, with the same responses to them. It is HIS opinion (oh, and he IS a developer too). So regardless, his opinion matters more.
I also want to enlighten people on something... The majority do NOT consider this an issue. Wanna know how I know this? Because for every person that b*tches about it, 2 or more come back and tell them to STFU and play the game the way the developers intended (did I mention BM is a developer yet?). Not only that, they find nothing wrong with either of them. I personally do not really notice the muzzle flash that much when playing as a marine. The skulk's bites are a little bit more disorrienting, but not something that cannot be overcome.
I guess that's one of the biggest problems people have with all the complaining too. These are parts of the game that must be overcome. They are not things that just "come to you". It will require practice and, in some people's cases, a lot of work. I personally have never found either of these things to be an issue, even when I first started to play. I never even knew they were issues until people started complaining.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So regardless, his opinion matters more. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh heh . . but not really. I try to do as I'm told, have a good time, and avoid the important decisions. It leaves me with plenty of time to complain <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
But what it <i>does</i> mean is that I've been around these boards for going on two years, so if I seem crotchety, it's because I have a different perspective. Certain things have been discussed . . . . to . . . . death.
Ok, it's time for sleep. I'm firing up Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back and bidding everyone a fond farewell untill tomorrow.
To othell. I'm not suggesting that the flash be completely removed, or that skulk's teeth be removed. But there are other simple fixes which keep the atmosphere while not blocking vision.
And no amount of skill can make up for losing a sensory perception. I can go into detail with a psychology background, but I'll skip the details. The other senses can only go so far to make up for when others fail. For instance using hearing to replace vision while biting as a skulk will not work due to the loudness of skulk bite. Also there is sensory memory decay and procedural interference and other gibberish (heh).
And BTW Nimbus, thanks for at least seeing my post as something quality, reguardless of its stance.
The majorty of dev directed argument ARE nothing more than complains BM. And I'm actually surprised that you're not used to it by now, heh. I'm not outright demanding anything of the developers, I am only questioning the reasoning used, and asking other opinions while rallying an effort to get it changed. Most of the threads that I read on this topic started off on the wrong foot. I wanted this one to be different, but it seems I started a "loaded" argument where I didn't mean to.
Too many people have joined this thread with incorrect assumptions about my claims, and are only regurgitating arguments which they read from other threads.
The skulk bite making things hard to see does make A LOT of sense.
Most of us know that sharks roll their eyes back when they attack, but that is simply because they dont have eyelids. Doesn't it make sense then to assume that if it DID have eyelids it would shut them?
And that other animals who already have eyelids would already be shutting them when they decide to attack their flailing paniced and potentially dangerous victims?
Why WOULDN'T the skulk close it's eyes when it goes in for the kill? Logic dictates that skulks would be more interested in being able to use it's eyes for the next attack rather than being able to see where the marine it's holding on to with it's jaws is (well duh, it's obviously in it's mouth...). Dunno about you, but I'd be quite happy to keep all the spurting blood out of my eyes...
Now you could argue that we should have a blinking effect simulated instead of putting the camera inside the mouth, however if we made the screen go black every time the skulk attacked then we have a good deal of our players being afk while trying to get over their epileptic fits... The current system does looks good, and makes enough sense if you think about it.
I support the idea of reducing the size of the LMG sprite by 20% as well as speeding up the bit animation by 20%. I doubt anybody would be mad if this was done. I can think of many people who would be mad if this was NOT done. But what's most important is the gaming experience. If this negatively affects some players' gaming experiences and changing it would not negatively affect the gaming experience... I ask why you would NOT do it?
Personally, I never thought of complaining about these issues until some people brought it up here. I'm fine with either way, but I would like these players to have a better gaming experience.
Ah BTW, BM, I can EASILY see why your edgy around here. I am a proud member of one of the largest forums on the Net (r u [H]ard baby?), so I know my place when posting. I feel your pain just from reading around what most of the posts look like. Even looking at the first page of my thread I got flamed, trolled, crapped, and hijacked before it even got to the second page. You got your work cut out for you.
EDIT: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I doubt anybody would be mad if this was done. I can think of many people who would be mad if this was NOT done.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You took my fumbled words and perfectly placed them together. This is what I was trying to say in reguard to "why not just leave it?" But don't make the actual gun smaller, just the flash. Or give the skulk bite an alpha value (translucency, uhh "see-thru"), or have the jaws not close as much. There are many solutions to make people happy, and noone angry.
I'm also afraid that there are too many people remaining voiceless since everyone is liberally using the word CHEATER when refering to wanting less view obstruction.
I think the whole issue boils down to one thing. The Devs made a game that they wanted to see made, and to play, and then provided it to the entire HL community, <b><i>FOR FREE!</i></b> If you are not happy with the game, there are many, many more games out there for you to play and enjoy.
Muzzle flashes and skulk teeth? Siege Turrets that can shoot through walls? This is their game, and their vision. It is for us to try, and if enjoyed, continue to play! If the problems or mechanics one finds in the game cause it to not be fun for you, try another of the thousands of games available to you. And remember, they did this out of their own pockets, and time. If I pay for a game, <b>then</b> I expect a certain level of responsiblity from the creators to the consumers/players. We, as a community, have no claim on the Devs of NS. Rather, they have one on us. Namely, many sleepless nights! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have a great respect for everyone involved in the NS project, and I think it's a fantastic game that I will play for a long time to come.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I got flamed, trolled, crapped, and hijacked before it even got to the second page.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, and that was just by <i>me</i> . . . *rim shot*
Again, as I've said, it's a case of the same problems leading to the same arguments, ad infinidum. Some people agree, some disagree, others couldn't care less, though most everyone seems convinced that they hold the correct, objective opinion (and here I'm not referring to you-- just these threads in general).
I'm sure there's a way to work everything out, but as I've said, I try to avoid the tough decisions.
Movie time. Bed time. Everyone take care, now . . .
I don't mind who is correct and not correct. Thats not what this is about at all. The fact is, and this is the point I <b>really</b> wanna drive home...
<b><i>I doubt anybody would be mad if this was done. I can think of many people who would be mad if this was NOT done.</i></b>
I would be mad that whining little pansies who cant be bothered learning to overcome obstacles starting yelling their "nerf!" battlecry had won the battle.
I would be mad that my skill and my hard practise all of a sudden meant so much less to how effective I was at killing.
I would be mad that the effort I had put into forcing myself to burst firing until it eventually became a habit was a complete waste of time and would now actualy <b>disadvantage</b> me because I was now doing damage more slowly than other people who didn't try and adapt their playing style to the difficulties of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ruri+Dec 14 2002, 04:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ruri @ Dec 14 2002, 04:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b><i>I doubt anybody would be mad if this was done. I can think of many people who would be mad if this was NOT done.</i></b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And if they get mad, they can remove the free game from their computer, and go play something more enjoyable. Those of us who don't get mad can let the Dev's continue to modify their game and its vision as they see fit. Until they make me pay for it, I will play as long as its enjoyable, without questioning their decisions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would be mad that my skill and my hard practise all of a sudden meant so much less to how effective I was at killing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I seriously doubt you would be worse at killing if you could see more of the screen, and had less visual distractions. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would be mad that the effort I had put into forcing myself to burst firing until it eventually became a habit <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A habit quickly broken in days at the most.
As I see it, muzzle flash and Skulk teeth are widely unpopular neither because of balance nor because of atmosphere. They equally hamper marines and aliens, and the people who oppose them usually care little about atmosphere or immersion.
The problem is that they are a handicap. They impair your vision. It's like being told "Hey, let's play football. And to slow down the game, let's all tie a 2 pound weight to our feet."
It's my impression that these two vision blockers are only there to drag out the fights. Fair enough, the fights are terribly fast when people turn the models of. But the same could be achieved by scaling down all weapon damage, without giving a feeling of being artificially handicapped to the players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would be mad that whining little pansies who cant be bothered learning to overcome obstacles starting yelling their "nerf!" battlecry had won the battle.
I would be mad that my skill and my hard practise all of a sudden meant so much less to how effective I was at killing.
I would be mad that the effort I had put into forcing myself to burst firing until it eventually became a habit was a complete waste of time and would now actualy disadvantage me because I was now doing damage more slowly than other people who didn't try and adapt their playing style to the difficulties of the game.
Bottom line: I would be mad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Get over it. Constructive criticism is a good thing. It's not a battle. Although he initially made this as a battle by his wording, (which he's probably regretting) I'm sure you can be mature and look at the objective reasons behind his stance.
If this DOESN'T bother you, (and I'm talking to everyone) you shouldn't be in this thread flaming people who are voicing their concerns about the gaming experience of NS. This is a legitimate complaint that should be looked at. It can't hurt the game. (it'll only hurt the people who feel like they lost a battle they shouldn't have taken up in the first place)
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
What I find amusing is that every time this complaint has been brought up, the developers have said "it is not going to change."
And yet people still try.
It's almost as funny as people crying about siege cannons, when aliens win the majority of games - not due to balance, mind you, but due to poor teamplay on the marine team. They win consistantly, and they still whine about sieges. Cracks me up.
It's not changing, it's really not that much of a liability. I would also be disappointed if it were changed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is that they are a handicap. They impair your vision. It's like being told "Hey, let's play football. And to slow down the game, let's all tie a 2 pound weight to our feet."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The developers never intended it to be a handicap and probably haven't even considered it until full release when some people complained. This doesn't mean they MEANT for it to be this way and should be kept for their sake. It means now they can modify and improve the game for a larger audience, because people ARE speaking out. I'm sort of ashamed of the forumers who are shunning the players for addressing this issue.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would also be disappointed if it were changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> WHY?! Where is all this reluctance coming from? I don't care if it's changed or not, but why are they ignoring this? I haven't heard a legitimate reason yet. It baffles me why they are letting the issue drag on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It means now they can modify and improve the game for a larger audience, because people ARE speaking out. I'm sort of ashamed of the forumers who are shunning the players for addressing this issue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, the attitude in this forum can sometimes be disheartening. It is probably a result of an apotheosis of the playtesters which I never understood.
Complaints and opinions can be valid even if PTs and/or developers oppose them. It is merely a matter of taste and personal preference what you like or dislike in a game. Some just happen to dislike visual handicaps, whereas others value the immersion factor very highly. None of these opinions is the "right" one.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I personally think the teeth are awesome. Its a lot cooler and more vicous looking than the front of a snout could possibly be, and it forces the skulks to attack in a blindy frenzy which adds a bit of texture to the game.
the muzzle flash? eh. . whatever. I dont really care either way. It just makes it more frantic when a skulk is hacking away at you. A bit more adrenaline, a bit more fun. It also gives you the feeling that the weapon you're holding has a bit of oomph to it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if they get mad, they can remove the free game from their computer, and go play something more enjoyable. Those of us who don't get mad can let the Dev's continue to modify their game and its vision as they see fit. Until they make me pay for it, I will play as long as its enjoyable, without questioning their decisions.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Making this change <b>goes against</b> the dev's vision. They have made the decision time and again to keep it the same.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I seriously doubt you would be worse at killing if you could see more of the screen, and had less visual distractions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I would not get any worse, but others would all of a sudden get a lot better. It's like studying for an exam only to find out on exam day that the questions you studied got taken out of the exam at the last minute because they were "too hard" for those who hadn't done their study...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If this DOESN'T bother you, (and I'm talking to everyone) you shouldn't be in this thread flaming people who are voicing their concerns about the gaming experience of NS. This is a legitimate complaint that should be looked at. It can't hurt the game. (it'll only hurt the people who feel like they lost a battle they shouldn't have taken up in the first place)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I haven't seen any one person flame here who had not taken up a stance on this debate. I am 100% against making any changes to the bite model and muzzle flash.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sort of ashamed of the forumers who are shunning the players for addressing this issue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->We are not shunning them, we are disagreeing with them. We aren't telling them to keep quiet because we are afraid of retribution of simply don't want to acknowledge the issue, we are outright trying to tell you that we are much happier the way things are, and that we completely disagree with your opinion. Just because our opinions coincide with what is currently in the game, doesn't mean that don't actually HAVE opinions...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->WHY?! Where is all this reluctance coming from?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's coming from the fact that we dont like this idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I haven't heard a legitimate reason yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of us know that sharks roll their eyes back when they attack, but that is simply because they dont have eyelids. Doesn't it make sense then to assume that if it DID have eyelids it would shut them?
And that other animals who already have eyelids would already be shutting them when they decide to attack their flailing paniced and potentially dangerous victims?
Why WOULDN'T the skulk close it's eyes when it goes in for the kill? Logic dictates that skulks would be more interested in being able to use it's eyes for the next attack rather than being able to see where the marine it's holding on to with it's jaws is (well duh, it's obviously in it's mouth...). Dunno about you, but I'd be quite happy to keep all the spurting blood out of my eyes...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Dec 14 2002, 11:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Dec 14 2002, 11:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, the attitude in this forum can sometimes be disheartening.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sometimes I wonder what things would be like if NS still hadn't been released...
I really loved being reading up on all of Humbaba's tales from the frontlines... And about a month before release a lot of us readers in the shadows started coming out and actually registering on the forums....
You shoulda seen the attitude back then... Sure, people were still impatient and needy, but as far as I can remember they were a heck of a lot nicer about it...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's coming from the fact that we dont like this idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And why is that? I'm sitting here and wondering why someone just doesn't put an end to this tedium and give an explanation as to why it won't be changed or post a comment that they are considering the idea.
Everybody agrees that the debate has been played out... there's just no resolution for some.
the roll eyes emote would be so perfect for this entire thread ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hahaha <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
True words from a playtester! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
wonder if they will put some more emoticons in soon..
I have no problem with either the teeth or the flash, as long as it applies to everyone. Anyone using client-side hackery to remove them is just cheating.
But the most significant thing I saw on this thread was mentioned back on page 3 - that the muzzle flash changes apparent size with screen resolution. Now THAT's a significant problem, and possibly why lots of people (possibly playing at 1600x1200) have no problem it, and people like me (running at 800x600) find it quite disconcerting. This should be fixed - it's clearly a bug, and it's not fair to have it covering 4 times as much screen area because you have to run at a lower resolution.
sigh....yes, but what you DONT seem to get is, if YOU remove the muzzle flash, while others have it on, you gain an advantage...this means...YOU ARE CHEATING.
People fighting on different spaceships researching the same technology doesnt make sense either. They arent realistic or sensemaking, but they are sure cool. And to be honest, i never even noticed the muzzle flash obstructing my view.
Comments
I did a small scan for dedicated threads to this topic, but did not find one which encompassed both skulks and marines. Most were just one sided for marines or aliens, or off topic posts in random threads, or rants with no real content or reasoning. I intended for this thread to be the collection of those posts. If I missed the thread dedicated to this topic then it was not on purpose.
Sorry if I offended you with my choice of words, but I just do not undersand the reasoning behind the obstructive models.
True. It's not. But bringing up a whole new thread <i>immediately</i>, from a similar thread was not a great idea.
Here's my point-- and, much as I love this community, this is the <b>biggest</b> problem I have with it, which just happened to boil over in this thread-- is that this sort of point is often made: Look at all the people that are complaining with me! This <b>must</b> be changed, or the devs a) are egotistical jerks, or b) completely ignorant, or c) don't care about the community and just get off on enforcing their draconian vision upon this game.
But for the nth time, the post on this subject is also filled with people who disagree with the point being made. It's been like this since the beginning of the boards. There are no black and white answers on these subjects, but people use them to make black and white judgements on the devs' motives, regardless.
It's a wee bit frustrating.
Edit:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->During playtesting, we were very critical.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed-- I <b>hated</b> the idea of the eyes-in-the-mouth thing when it came out . . . then when I played with it (after playing with the default, non-'intrusive' model), I was sold. It just added <b>so</b> much that it eventually got my vote . . .
Further edit:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sorry if I offended you with my choice of words, but I just do not undersand the reasoning behind the obstructive models. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough . . . as I've said, words like 'audacity' are fairly loaded when used in reference to devs' decisions. There are no secret conspiracies or head games coming into play here. Trust me, everyone, <b>especially</b> Flayra, wants this to be the best game it can possibly be-- but just because they don't immediately embrace a certain opinion <i>doesn't</i> mean that there's any foul play afoot, or that they are trying to voluntarily harm the community.
I did a small scan for dedicated threads to this topic, but did not find one which encompassed both skulks and marines. Most were just one sided for marines or aliens, or off topic posts in random threads, or rants with no real content or reasoning. I intended for this thread to be the collection of those posts. If I missed the thread dedicated to this topic then it was not on purpose.
Sorry if I offended you with my choice of words, but I just do not undersand the reasoning behind the obstructive models.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/me cries.
The people just do not learn.
/me looks up at the link labled "Search".
There have been so many different posts on this it is unbelievable. There have been threads on just the muzzle flash... threads on the skulk bite... threads on both. BM has every right to express his discontent with seeing the same sh*t over and over again, with the same responses to them. It is HIS opinion (oh, and he IS a developer too). So regardless, his opinion matters more.
I also want to enlighten people on something... The majority do NOT consider this an issue. Wanna know how I know this? Because for every person that b*tches about it, 2 or more come back and tell them to STFU and play the game the way the developers intended (did I mention BM is a developer yet?). Not only that, they find nothing wrong with either of them. I personally do not really notice the muzzle flash that much when playing as a marine. The skulk's bites are a little bit more disorrienting, but not something that cannot be overcome.
I guess that's one of the biggest problems people have with all the complaining too. These are parts of the game that must be overcome. They are not things that just "come to you". It will require practice and, in some people's cases, a lot of work. I personally have never found either of these things to be an issue, even when I first started to play. I never even knew they were issues until people started complaining.
I'll say it again...
Skill... it's more than just a great idea!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh heh . . but not really. I try to do as I'm told, have a good time, and avoid the important decisions. It leaves me with plenty of time to complain <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
But what it <i>does</i> mean is that I've been around these boards for going on two years, so if I seem crotchety, it's because I have a different perspective. Certain things have been discussed . . . . to . . . . death.
Ok, it's time for sleep. I'm firing up Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back and bidding everyone a fond farewell untill tomorrow.
And no amount of skill can make up for losing a sensory perception. I can go into detail with a psychology background, but I'll skip the details. The other senses can only go so far to make up for when others fail. For instance using hearing to replace vision while biting as a skulk will not work due to the loudness of skulk bite. Also there is sensory memory decay and procedural interference and other gibberish (heh).
And BTW Nimbus, thanks for at least seeing my post as something quality, reguardless of its stance.
The majorty of dev directed argument ARE nothing more than complains BM. And I'm actually surprised that you're not used to it by now, heh. I'm not outright demanding anything of the developers, I am only questioning the reasoning used, and asking other opinions while rallying an effort to get it changed. Most of the threads that I read on this topic started off on the wrong foot. I wanted this one to be different, but it seems I started a "loaded" argument where I didn't mean to.
Too many people have joined this thread with incorrect assumptions about my claims, and are only regurgitating arguments which they read from other threads.
Most of us know that sharks roll their eyes back when they attack, but that is simply because they dont have eyelids. Doesn't it make sense then to assume that if it DID have eyelids it would shut them?
And that other animals who already have eyelids would already be shutting them when they decide to attack their flailing paniced and potentially dangerous victims?
Why WOULDN'T the skulk close it's eyes when it goes in for the kill? Logic dictates that skulks would be more interested in being able to use it's eyes for the next attack rather than being able to see where the marine it's holding on to with it's jaws is (well duh, it's obviously in it's mouth...). Dunno about you, but I'd be quite happy to keep all the spurting blood out of my eyes...
Now you could argue that we should have a blinking effect simulated instead of putting the camera inside the mouth, however if we made the screen go black every time the skulk attacked then we have a good deal of our players being afk while trying to get over their epileptic fits... The current system does looks good, and makes enough sense if you think about it.
Leave it alone...
Personally, I never thought of complaining about these issues until some people brought it up here. I'm fine with either way, but I would like these players to have a better gaming experience.
EDIT:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I doubt anybody would be mad if this was done. I can think of many people who would be mad if this was NOT done.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You took my fumbled words and perfectly placed them together. This is what I was trying to say in reguard to "why not just leave it?" But don't make the actual gun smaller, just the flash. Or give the skulk bite an alpha value (translucency, uhh "see-thru"), or have the jaws not close as much. There are many solutions to make people happy, and noone angry.
I'm also afraid that there are too many people remaining voiceless since everyone is liberally using the word CHEATER when refering to wanting less view obstruction.
Muzzle flashes and skulk teeth? Siege Turrets that can shoot through walls? This is their game, and their vision. It is for us to try, and if enjoyed, continue to play! If the problems or mechanics one finds in the game cause it to not be fun for you, try another of the thousands of games available to you. And remember, they did this out of their own pockets, and time. If I pay for a game, <b>then</b> I expect a certain level of responsiblity from the creators to the consumers/players. We, as a community, have no claim on the Devs of NS. Rather, they have one on us. Namely, many sleepless nights! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have a great respect for everyone involved in the NS project, and I think it's a fantastic game that I will play for a long time to come.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I got flamed, trolled, crapped, and hijacked before it even got to the second page.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, and that was just by <i>me</i> . . . *rim shot*
Again, as I've said, it's a case of the same problems leading to the same arguments, ad infinidum. Some people agree, some disagree, others couldn't care less, though most everyone seems convinced that they hold the correct, objective opinion (and here I'm not referring to you-- just these threads in general).
I'm sure there's a way to work everything out, but as I've said, I try to avoid the tough decisions.
Movie time. Bed time. Everyone take care, now . . .
<b><i>I doubt anybody would be mad if this was done. I can think of many people who would be mad if this was NOT done.</i></b>
I would be mad that whining little pansies who cant be bothered learning to overcome obstacles starting yelling their "nerf!" battlecry had won the battle.
I would be mad that my skill and my hard practise all of a sudden meant so much less to how effective I was at killing.
I would be mad that the effort I had put into forcing myself to burst firing until it eventually became a habit was a complete waste of time and would now actualy <b>disadvantage</b> me because I was now doing damage more slowly than other people who didn't try and adapt their playing style to the difficulties of the game.
Bottom line: I would be mad.
And if they get mad, they can remove the free game from their computer, and go play something more enjoyable. Those of us who don't get mad can let the Dev's continue to modify their game and its vision as they see fit. Until they make me pay for it, I will play as long as its enjoyable, without questioning their decisions.
the roll eyes emote would be so perfect for this entire thread ...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I seriously doubt you would be worse at killing if you could see more of the screen, and had less visual distractions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would be mad that the effort I had put into forcing myself to burst firing until it eventually became a habit <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A habit quickly broken in days at the most.
As I see it, muzzle flash and Skulk teeth are widely unpopular neither because of balance nor because of atmosphere. They equally hamper marines and aliens, and the people who oppose them usually care little about atmosphere or immersion.
The problem is that they are a handicap. They impair your vision. It's like being told "Hey, let's play football. And to slow down the game, let's all tie a 2 pound weight to our feet."
It's my impression that these two vision blockers are only there to drag out the fights. Fair enough, the fights are terribly fast when people turn the models of. But the same could be achieved by scaling down all weapon damage, without giving a feeling of being artificially handicapped to the players.
I would be mad that my skill and my hard practise all of a sudden meant so much less to how effective I was at killing.
I would be mad that the effort I had put into forcing myself to burst firing until it eventually became a habit was a complete waste of time and would now actualy disadvantage me because I was now doing damage more slowly than other people who didn't try and adapt their playing style to the difficulties of the game.
Bottom line: I would be mad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Get over it. Constructive criticism is a good thing. It's not a battle. Although he initially made this as a battle by his wording, (which he's probably regretting) I'm sure you can be mature and look at the objective reasons behind his stance.
If this DOESN'T bother you, (and I'm talking to everyone) you shouldn't be in this thread flaming people who are voicing their concerns about the gaming experience of NS. This is a legitimate complaint that should be looked at. It can't hurt the game. (it'll only hurt the people who feel like they lost a battle they shouldn't have taken up in the first place)
And yet people still try.
It's almost as funny as people crying about siege cannons, when aliens win the majority of games - not due to balance, mind you, but due to poor teamplay on the marine team. They win consistantly, and they still whine about sieges. Cracks me up.
It's not changing, it's really not that much of a liability. I would also be disappointed if it were changed.
WHY?! Where is all this reluctance coming from? I don't care if it's changed or not, but why are they ignoring this? I haven't heard a legitimate reason yet. It baffles me why they are letting the issue drag on.
Yes, the attitude in this forum can sometimes be disheartening. It is probably a result of an apotheosis of the playtesters which I never understood.
Complaints and opinions can be valid even if PTs and/or developers oppose them. It is merely a matter of taste and personal preference what you like or dislike in a game. Some just happen to dislike visual handicaps, whereas others value the immersion factor very highly. None of these opinions is the "right" one.
the muzzle flash? eh. . whatever. I dont really care either way. It just makes it more frantic when a skulk is hacking away at you. A bit more adrenaline, a bit more fun. It also gives you the feeling that the weapon you're holding has a bit of oomph to it.
Making this change <b>goes against</b> the dev's vision. They have made the decision time and again to keep it the same.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I seriously doubt you would be worse at killing if you could see more of the screen, and had less visual distractions.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I would not get any worse, but others would all of a sudden get a lot better. It's like studying for an exam only to find out on exam day that the questions you studied got taken out of the exam at the last minute because they were "too hard" for those who hadn't done their study...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If this DOESN'T bother you, (and I'm talking to everyone) you shouldn't be in this thread flaming people who are voicing their concerns about the gaming experience of NS. This is a legitimate complaint that should be looked at. It can't hurt the game. (it'll only hurt the people who feel like they lost a battle they shouldn't have taken up in the first place)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't seen any one person flame here who had not taken up a stance on this debate. I am 100% against making any changes to the bite model and muzzle flash.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sort of ashamed of the forumers who are shunning the players for addressing this issue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->We are not shunning them, we are disagreeing with them. We aren't telling them to keep quiet because we are afraid of retribution of simply don't want to acknowledge the issue, we are outright trying to tell you that we are much happier the way things are, and that we completely disagree with your opinion. Just because our opinions coincide with what is currently in the game, doesn't mean that don't actually HAVE opinions...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->WHY?! Where is all this reluctance coming from?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's coming from the fact that we dont like this idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I haven't heard a legitimate reason yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of us know that sharks roll their eyes back when they attack, but that is simply because they dont have eyelids. Doesn't it make sense then to assume that if it DID have eyelids it would shut them?
And that other animals who already have eyelids would already be shutting them when they decide to attack their flailing paniced and potentially dangerous victims?
Why WOULDN'T the skulk close it's eyes when it goes in for the kill? Logic dictates that skulks would be more interested in being able to use it's eyes for the next attack rather than being able to see where the marine it's holding on to with it's jaws is (well duh, it's obviously in it's mouth...). Dunno about you, but I'd be quite happy to keep all the spurting blood out of my eyes...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sometimes I wonder what things would be like if NS still hadn't been released...
I really loved being reading up on all of Humbaba's tales from the frontlines... And about a month before release a lot of us readers in the shadows started coming out and actually registering on the forums....
You shoulda seen the attitude back then... Sure, people were still impatient and needy, but as far as I can remember they were a heck of a lot nicer about it...
Everybody agrees that the debate has been played out... there's just no resolution for some.
the roll eyes emote would be so perfect for this entire thread ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hahaha <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
True words from a playtester! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
wonder if they will put some more emoticons in soon..
But the most significant thing I saw on this thread was mentioned back on page 3 - that the muzzle flash changes apparent size with screen resolution. Now THAT's a significant problem, and possibly why lots of people (possibly playing at 1600x1200) have no problem it, and people like me (running at 800x600) find it quite disconcerting. This should be fixed - it's clearly a bug, and it's not fair to have it covering 4 times as much screen area because you have to run at a lower resolution.
why can you not get this?