<!--QuoteBegin--KMO+Dec 14 2002, 09:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KMO @ Dec 14 2002, 09:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now THAT's a significant problem, and possibly why lots of people (possibly playing at 1600x1200) have no problem it, and people like me (running at 800x600) find it quite disconcerting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That might explain why it doesnt bother me. I play 1600*1200.
<!--QuoteBegin--xect+Dec 14 2002, 09:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xect @ Dec 14 2002, 09:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People fighting on different spaceships researching the same technology doesnt make sense either. They arent realistic or sensemaking, but they are sure cool. And to be honest, i never even noticed the muzzle flash obstructing my view.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes...i agree the muzzle flash doesnt bug me at all....neither does the skulk teeth, so get used to it... erm...did world war 1 or 2 make sense? not really..humanity is most often its own worst enemy..unless it is coming up against something with acidic blood and wall climbing abilities...
I've had trouble with this problem from the very start, and even had to resort to using Adv. Hive Sight as a Skulk, which is fairly unnessacary in my opinion (as a Skulk). The Teeth, I have less of a problem with them, but if these were to be changed, wouldn't it also be an idea to fix the Lerk's as well? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Edit------ Spelling corrections and grammar.
ok someone lock this now.....this is getting old very very fast. there is no point...the dev team has spoken...THEY SHALL NOT BE REMOVED...
and what would be the point of removing the flare and the teeth? sure you would see slightly better (in your opinion anyway) but you can see better if you fire in short bursts. and strafe! and skulks, if you have difficulty seeing your target, dont continuously CHOMP! it can be heard like five miles away. just hide and leap behind a marine and two or three chomps will kill him!
there is no point writing anymore cos im not going to change your mind...and you are not going to change the Dev teams mind...so stop your whining pleease...just reading it is giving me a headache.
Im all for keeping them i play in 800X600 and so does my brother... we have no problem killing and surviving with both the teeth and the flash,, and i love the lerk teeth why bother pointing em out...
Both ALL for keeping them in.. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
People complain that there is no reason *to* leave them in. Well, there is. You argue that tweaking both the flash and the teeth will keep it from being unbalanced after the change is made. It's never that easy, sorry. Changing the LMG will also affect marines' ability to take out lerks especially, and all the other aliens as well - but changing the skulk *only* improves the skulk, and all the other aliens are suddenly more vulnerable to LMGs.
As a comparison: in playtesting, we once tried to lengthen firefights by reducing ALL damage by 20%. If you reduce *everyone's* damage it should rebalance itself, right? Not so much! All of a sudden marines couldn't kill skulks before they closed to melee range; small, hard-to-hit Lerks took even longer to kill; buildings took far too long to destroy (because their health hadn't been changed)... there were a HUGE number of problems that couldn't be foreseen from this change that wasn't supposed to alter balance at ALL.
So what happens when you make a change that alters the balance, like removing the muzzle flash or changing the skulk's bite? Who knows... but it's NOT as easy as you'd like people to think.
Leaving it as is, is doing more harm than good to the general playing community. Making the changes you'll have a few ppl whining for a week until they themselves get used to the wider view area (altho I still fail to realize how one can "get used to" this when it's what we are all used to anyways). And then after that you'll never hear about this topic again. But as is now, I believe players will never shut up about wanting the obstructions removed. Sure some of you will say, "go find another game to play, this one's not for you". However I really don't think that's the stance NS wants to take.
Once upon a time there was a man who created a product for Verant named EverQuest and he had what he called his "vision". Basically it was that if what players wanted in the game went against his "vision", then they would not be implemented; it was harsh times for EQ. Well after some internal conflict he finally decided to quit. From that day forward EQ became ever so much more successful with the disreguarding of the "vision" - and the players were happy again. Sure the product was not the players, but it was FOR the players, and to further their enjoyment. However EQ also was looking to earn a buck, so there was that drive also. NS stands apart in that (as stated) the devs are not just out to make a buck.
And the comments about it being realistic and "teeth look cool leave em in!" are way out there. Noone said we wanna remove teeth, just change it to be less obstructing. And thats just great that someone found a species on this earth that bites with it's eyes closed. Cause I have no idea what that has to do with eyes being in the mouth, let alone the fact that 99% of this planet's species bite with their eyes open.
As far as balance goes, thats something that will be tweaked till the end of NS's life. Even the holy Starcraft was tweaked years into it's exsistance. Making this single change will not be like throwing a wrench into the gears. Making small changes here and there is what balancing is all about. And that's what this is exactly - making small changes.
Ah and of course the Lerk getting the same treatment as the skulk would be nice. It's just that most people don't use the Lerk bite as often so forget it has the same issues. Lerk bite and skulks bite are one and the same.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ruri+Dec 15 2002, 12:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ruri @ Dec 15 2002, 12:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once upon a time there was a man who created a product for Verant named EverQuest and he had what he called his "vision". Basically it was that if what players wanted in the game went against his "vision", then they would not be implemented; it was harsh times for EQ. Well after some internal conflict he finally decided to quit. From that day forward EQ became ever so much more successful with the disreguarding of the "vision" - and the players were happy again. Sure the product was not the players, but it was FOR the players, and to further their enjoyment. However EQ also was looking to earn a buck, so there was that drive also. NS stands apart in that (as stated) the devs are not just out to make a buck.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> an astounding similar thing happened to tribes 2, hehe.
my stance on this whole issue is that both the muzzle flash and skulk bite create a lot of movement on the screen, which is very distracting. i do deal with it, however, so i'm not complaining whichever way this goes.
Jesus, all this stuff about "Oh it doesn't make much sense" and "Omg there's a muzzle flash" is retarded. How are you to know what makes sense and what doesn't a hundred years from now? Does the fact that skulks and fades and onoses are attacking our planet? Does it make sense that some "God-like" person can drop buildings and health at will? Maybe we should turn NS into a game where we all live in bubble like houses and wear gas masks to walk outside because of pollution. THAT would make sense now wouldn't it?
Let me quote a few things that may make this easier.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would be mad if this was done.
I would be mad that whining little pansies who cant be bothered learning to overcome obstacles starting yelling their "nerf!" battlecry had won the battle.
I would be mad that my skill and my hard practise all of a sudden meant so much less to how effective I was at killing.
I would be mad that the effort I had put into forcing myself to burst firing until it eventually became a habit was a complete waste of time and would now actualy disadvantage me because I was now doing damage more slowly than other people who didn't try and adapt their playing style to the difficulties of the game.
Bottom line: I would be mad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a very legitimate concern. He is absolutely right. He has developed the ability to play without b*tching about the muzzle flash or skulk bite... what's more is that he has developed this ability and is EFFECTIVE at the same time (WOW!). You ask who would be mad and you got your answer, but you didn't like it so you brush it aside with a simple "Oh, you'll get over it after playing a few days." This is the most hypocritical thing I have ever heard. Why does he, who has learned a very valuable skill that follows the current view of the developers, have to have his abilities cheapened just because certain people could gain that same skill? Get real people.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do you realize how short sighted this really is? Removing these visual obstructions would distract from the atmosphere significantly as well as removing a certain element of SKILL ("OMG, he used the 's' word!!"). Get real people. Removing it for both sides won't necessarily balance anything out. In all likelihood it'll create other problems that are not worth the effort.
The muzzle flash and jaw closing are not real problems. They are easily overcome if you'd actually practice instead of b*tch and moan over every little thing that makes your game difficult (in your eyes).
Skill... it's more than just a great idea! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People complain that there is no reason *to* leave them in. Well, there is. You argue that tweaking both the flash and the teeth will keep it from being unbalanced after the change is made. It's never that easy, sorry. Changing the LMG will also affect marines' ability to take out lerks especially, and all the other aliens as well - but changing the skulk *only* improves the skulk, and all the other aliens are suddenly more vulnerable to LMGs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here is a response I made and one by coil against the (silly) idea that removing the muzzle flash and the skulk bite would make things balanced. Again, this is an answer as to why they will not and cannot be changed and you brush them both aside. You want to know WHY they were implemented in the first place? Well that's been said a dozen times also. There are two main reasons:<ul> <li>Balance <li>Immersion</ul>
But why do I think you'll not understand either one of those? Or that you'll just brush them aside as unimportant?
Also... I would like to point something out... Immersion is a VERY important part of the NS experience, but by removing or even reducing either of these the immersion factor will take a very steep fall. If you don't care about immersion, that's fine, but I do not think you should be entitled to an opinion if you cannot accept one of the most important parts of the NS experience, because that one idea helped decide so many things in the game.
Now for the other posts....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If this DOESN'T bother you, (and I'm talking to everyone) you shouldn't be in this thread flaming people who are voicing their concerns about the gaming experience of NS. This is a legitimate complaint that should be looked at. It can't hurt the game. (it'll only hurt the people who feel like they lost a battle they shouldn't have taken up in the first place)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are totally missing the point of those people who are expressing their OPPOSING OPINIONS. But to try to help you out, please refer the the first quote in my post, maybe then you'll understand.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The developers never intended it to be a handicap and probably haven't even considered it until full release when some people complained. This doesn't mean they MEANT for it to be this way and should be kept for their sake. It means now they can modify and improve the game for a larger audience, because people ARE speaking out. I'm sort of ashamed of the forumers who are shunning the players for addressing this issue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where do you think this? The developers DID intend for these so called "issues" to be handicaps, that's why they're used for balancing purposes. And why do you even think for a second that they did not mean for it to be this way? Have you not even been reading BM's posts?? They meant for it to be exactly this way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But the most significant thing I saw on this thread was mentioned back on page 3 - that the muzzle flash changes apparent size with screen resolution. Now THAT's a significant problem, and possibly why lots of people (possibly playing at 1600x1200) have no problem it, and people like me (running at 800x600) find it quite disconcerting. This should be fixed - it's clearly a bug, and it's not fair to have it covering 4 times as much screen area because you have to run at a lower resolution.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> All this means is that it is relative. It will cover the same percentage of screen space at different resolutions. Making it so that different resolutions would not have any advantages over others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally, I never thought of complaining about these issues until some people brought it up here. I'm fine with either way, but I would like these players to have a better gaming experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, we can all wish that everyone will have a great gaming experience, but I hope that will not come at too high of a cost (e.g. changing the game to cheapen skills learned and reducing the immersion factor at the same time).
You opinions have been heard. Your reasons have been shot down. It would not improve the game, it would actually detract significantly from it. At least that is what those of us who have adapted and can play quite well with them believe. To be honest, I do not think there is even a valid gripe here. The complaint boils down to: <ul> <li>It makes it harder to aim/bite. <li>I do not like it. </ul> There are others, I just can't think of them at the moment. Either way, they totally overlook the intentions of the developers. Not to mention the actual success of implementing these handicaps. I'll say it again... Removing or reducing either would severely change the NS experience in detrimental aspects.
I don't really belive that reducing muzzle flash will effect balance THAT much.
I've played with r_drawviewmodel 0 (befor I was told they're taking it out and befor I tested and discoverd that they've made the model scale with the res), and sure it helps me hit stuff but only stupid stuff I can hit anyway if I'm not on a really bad day. It doesn't help me hit that skulk who's got into the room and is charging around me while I leap about like a mad thing trying to shoot it off my boots.
At the end of the day it's the devs game and its their call on how they want the game to play, BUT it does annoy the hell out of me, vision imparement is just such a bizzare and unusual way of making the game harder.
You could get the same effect for the marines by having the gun lose accuracy as you fire it by having the 'cone' that your gun fires in expand as it fires. I'd also like to see that cone change with you sitting, standing, running or jumping. I know this is a fair amount of coding for the devs but toning down muzzle flash for some accuracy changes would be cool. It really bugs me when i'm a bug that the marines can be accurate while leaping around. Marines leaping about and firing look daft.
personally I love the Skulk teeth.. they were the first thing I saw when I went aliens and everytime I am a skulk they add a lot to the experience.
The muzzle flash thing for marines is a non-issue unless for some reason you enjoy full-auto.. which you shouldn't really. Coming from CS and having the 'burst fire' habit.. this muzzle flash thing hasn't been a problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--Aaron+Dec 15 2002, 01:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aaron @ Dec 15 2002, 01:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hey! I have another idea, maybe we should change the muzzle flash and skulk teeth models! I should make a new thread!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is a very legitimate concern. He is absolutely right. He has developed the ability to play without b*tching about the muzzle flash or skulk bite... what's more is that he has developed this ability and is EFFECTIVE at the same time (WOW!). You ask who would be mad and you got your answer, but you didn't like it so you brush it aside with a simple "Oh, you'll get over it after playing a few days." This is the most hypocritical thing I have ever heard. Why does he, who has learned a very valuable skill that follows the current view of the developers, have to have his abilities cheapened just because certain people could gain that same skill? Get real people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hahahaa, that is a horrible argument. In 1.00 I learned valuable skills in helping me take on the marine horde as an alien when I was out-numbered and out-gunned. The skills others and I learned during this period were not wasted in any way. They made me a much better alien player when teams were evened. To tone down the skulk bite and muzzle flash would not take away from the skills you have already gained.
And to say, "The NS team developed this game out of the kindness of their hearts, they weren't paid. If you don't like it you can leave and play another game," is just rediculous. These boards have a suggestion forum for a reason. No game is perfect, and the input that players bring into these boards are all geared toward making this game as enjoyable as possible. Their intent is not to sabotage this game, to anger forum members, or to beat a dead horse. They merely want to make their gaming experience as enjoyable as possible.
01Chrono
P.S. Only some sharks roll their eyes while attacking, others use a clear eyelid to protect their eyes from thrashing victims.
<!--QuoteBegin--01Chrono+Dec 15 2002, 10:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (01Chrono @ Dec 15 2002, 10:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hahahaa, that is a horrible argument. In 1.00 I learned valuable skills in helping me take on the marine horde as an alien when I was out-numbered and out-gunned. The skills others and I learned during this period were not wasted in any way. They made me a much better alien player when teams were evened. To tone down the skulk bite and muzzle flash would not take away from the skills you have already gained.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You obviously do not understand what is being said. We never said that the skills we've learned would not be helpfull if either was toned down or taken way. We said they would be cheapened. They would no longer be as much of a sought after skill. Please try to understand the argument before you respond to it next time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> These boards have a suggestion forum for a reason. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd think they'd learn to read first then....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> god bless r_drawviewmodel 0 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't get too used to it.
I have a theory about why you can't see when you bite. It's sort of similar to sneezing. When you sneeze you can't keep your eyes open because of the force. Maybe is the same with the Skulk. The chomp is so hard it causes the Skulk to blink.
As for the muzzle flash I have never noticed it and I play 800*600. Crosshairs are the only thing that gets in my way.
You said that lessing the muzzle and bite animation would "cheapen" the skills that others have learned to deal with this problem. That would mean that the skills that they learned would be wasted in some way, which is what I said. So don't tell me not to reply to your post because I cannot comprehend what you were saying. I understood you perfectly.
So as you said, <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please try to understand the argument before you respond to it next time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--01Chrono+Dec 15 2002, 10:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (01Chrono @ Dec 15 2002, 10:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You said that lessing the muzzle and bite animation would "cheapen" the skills that others have learned to deal with this problem. That would mean that the skills that they learned would be wasted in some way, which is what I said. So don't tell me not to reply to your post because I cannot comprehend what you were saying. I understood you perfectly.
So as you said, <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please try to understand the argument before you respond to it next time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
K, thx.
01Chrono<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're still quite mistaken. You're assuming that just because something is cheapened that it was a waste. Two things that do not necessarily have to go together. The skills themselves would never be a waste (unless auto-aim was ever implemented). They would just be less important to the NS experience, thus the idea of them being cheapened. Not wasted. So in fact you have not understood what is being said. You do keep making assumptions that are not true though. At least you're consistent.
Ok, i just read this entire thread and i have a few things to say:
1) No matter what you think, setting r_drawviewmodel to 0 IS a cheat. The dev team considers it a cheat, leagues consider it a cheat. case closed.
2) Making scripts to turn off your teeth/weapon models when you attack and then restoring them after you attack is also without doubt a lame script. Think about it, if they made it so that when you turned your viewmodel off you couldnt see half of the stuff going on around you(aliens lose hivesight, marines lose waypoints and perhaps more things, i have yet to try it) dont you think they did that for a reason? They could have just left it on even if the viewmodel was off if they had intended for this sort of thing to happen.
3) Custom models that reduce mussleflash, bite size, and generally make it easier for a person to aim that most others can with regular models is not accepted in ANY leagues. If you want to play with custom models that include this kind of thing go play in a server that allows custom models, dont force the decision of "making teeth less intrusive" on other players. If you want you can get one of the many models out there people who cant get used to the bite play with that wont let you be in a respectable clan or a respectable league.
4) I play on 800x600 on a very low end computer, i could argue and say "well, it would increase my fps!" I would be wrong. I tested this, my fps gain was 0, thast right 0. NS models are very well made and efficient, they dont considerably lower your fps rate. And if it did, im sure most of the people complaining about the issue play on high end computers, so theres no way you can use this argument now since you would have brought it up earlier if you really cared about it. The mussleflash or the skulk bite do not bother me, i learned to control my bites.
5) NS is not a realism mod, nobody cares (at least not the developers and myself) if the skulk's eyes appear to be outside their mouth while they attack from the inside, this adds to the inmersion and is the only reason it was put it. I have played mods where melee combat is simply boring and i just erased the mod from my very small HardDrive after the second time i played that mod. Bite model adds to inmersion and should not be taken out.
Finally, im just going to say that everyone who complains about the models and "impairing your playing ability" and other such things needs to just get used ot it. NS is a different mod that requires different skills from all others, learning to get over such "handicaps" as you call them is what "skill" is about. This is NOT CS(and im not bashing it, im just pointing out the differences between mods) you cant expect to be good at NS only because you learned how to aim without a gun model.
<!--QuoteBegin--{US-DF}Rico+Dec 15 2002, 11:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ({US-DF}Rico @ Dec 15 2002, 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, i just read this entire thread and i have a few things to say:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> wow
I guess someone had to say it... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--sLaM+Dec 15 2002, 11:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sLaM @ Dec 15 2002, 11:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow.... your kind of sarcastic **obscenity**.
Well...
I guess someone had to say it... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think he was being sarcastic.
Keep in mind that sarcasm and genuity are extremely hard to convey in written form.
Nah i wasnt being sarcastic, and about the "few" things, well, i guess i got carried away while writing <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
PS: Please tell where i was rude so i can try to improve on that in the future, i reread the post and saw nothing wrong with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--sLaM+Dec 15 2002, 12:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sLaM @ Dec 15 2002, 12:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually Rico, I was speaking of othell and the majority of his posts...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, got that. Refer to my post above.
Comments
That might explain why it doesnt bother me. I play 1600*1200.
yes...i agree the muzzle flash doesnt bug me at all....neither does the skulk teeth, so get used to it...
erm...did world war 1 or 2 make sense? not really..humanity is most often its own worst enemy..unless it is coming up against something with acidic blood and wall climbing abilities...
I've had trouble with this problem from the very start, and even had to resort to using Adv. Hive Sight as a Skulk, which is fairly unnessacary in my opinion (as a Skulk). The Teeth, I have less of a problem with them, but if these were to be changed, wouldn't it also be an idea to fix the Lerk's as well? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit------
Spelling corrections and grammar.
there is no point...the dev team has spoken...THEY SHALL NOT BE REMOVED...
and what would be the point of removing the flare and the teeth?
sure you would see slightly better (in your opinion anyway) but you can see better if you fire in short bursts.
and strafe! and skulks, if you have difficulty seeing your target, dont continuously CHOMP! it can be heard like five miles away. just hide and leap behind a marine and two or three chomps will kill him!
there is no point writing anymore cos im not going to change your mind...and you are not going to change the Dev teams mind...so stop your whining pleease...just reading it is giving me a headache.
Both ALL for keeping them in.. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As a comparison: in playtesting, we once tried to lengthen firefights by reducing ALL damage by 20%. If you reduce *everyone's* damage it should rebalance itself, right? Not so much! All of a sudden marines couldn't kill skulks before they closed to melee range; small, hard-to-hit Lerks took even longer to kill; buildings took far too long to destroy (because their health hadn't been changed)... there were a HUGE number of problems that couldn't be foreseen from this change that wasn't supposed to alter balance at ALL.
So what happens when you make a change that alters the balance, like removing the muzzle flash or changing the skulk's bite? Who knows... but it's NOT as easy as you'd like people to think.
Once upon a time there was a man who created a product for Verant named EverQuest and he had what he called his "vision". Basically it was that if what players wanted in the game went against his "vision", then they would not be implemented; it was harsh times for EQ. Well after some internal conflict he finally decided to quit. From that day forward EQ became ever so much more successful with the disreguarding of the "vision" - and the players were happy again. Sure the product was not the players, but it was FOR the players, and to further their enjoyment. However EQ also was looking to earn a buck, so there was that drive also. NS stands apart in that (as stated) the devs are not just out to make a buck.
And the comments about it being realistic and "teeth look cool leave em in!" are way out there. Noone said we wanna remove teeth, just change it to be less obstructing. And thats just great that someone found a species on this earth that bites with it's eyes closed. Cause I have no idea what that has to do with eyes being in the mouth, let alone the fact that 99% of this planet's species bite with their eyes open.
As far as balance goes, thats something that will be tweaked till the end of NS's life. Even the holy Starcraft was tweaked years into it's exsistance. Making this single change will not be like throwing a wrench into the gears. Making small changes here and there is what balancing is all about. And that's what this is exactly - making small changes.
Ah and of course the Lerk getting the same treatment as the skulk would be nice. It's just that most people don't use the Lerk bite as often so forget it has the same issues. Lerk bite and skulks bite are one and the same.
an astounding similar thing happened to tribes 2, hehe.
my stance on this whole issue is that both the muzzle flash and skulk bite create a lot of movement on the screen, which is very distracting. i do deal with it, however, so i'm not complaining whichever way this goes.
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I would be mad if this was done.
I would be mad that whining little pansies who cant be bothered learning to overcome obstacles starting yelling their "nerf!" battlecry had won the battle.
I would be mad that my skill and my hard practise all of a sudden meant so much less to how effective I was at killing.
I would be mad that the effort I had put into forcing myself to burst firing until it eventually became a habit was a complete waste of time and would now actualy disadvantage me because I was now doing damage more slowly than other people who didn't try and adapt their playing style to the difficulties of the game.
Bottom line: I would be mad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a very legitimate concern. He is absolutely right. He has developed the ability to play without b*tching about the muzzle flash or skulk bite... what's more is that he has developed this ability and is EFFECTIVE at the same time (WOW!). You ask who would be mad and you got your answer, but you didn't like it so you brush it aside with a simple "Oh, you'll get over it after playing a few days." This is the most hypocritical thing I have ever heard. Why does he, who has learned a very valuable skill that follows the current view of the developers, have to have his abilities cheapened just because certain people could gain that same skill? Get real people.
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Do you realize how short sighted this really is? Removing these visual obstructions would distract from the atmosphere significantly as well as removing a certain element of SKILL ("OMG, he used the 's' word!!"). Get real people. Removing it for both sides won't necessarily balance anything out. In all likelihood it'll create other problems that are not worth the effort.
The muzzle flash and jaw closing are not real problems. They are easily overcome if you'd actually practice instead of b*tch and moan over every little thing that makes your game difficult (in your eyes).
Skill... it's more than just a great idea! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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People complain that there is no reason *to* leave them in. Well, there is. You argue that tweaking both the flash and the teeth will keep it from being unbalanced after the change is made. It's never that easy, sorry. Changing the LMG will also affect marines' ability to take out lerks especially, and all the other aliens as well - but changing the skulk *only* improves the skulk, and all the other aliens are suddenly more vulnerable to LMGs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here is a response I made and one by coil against the (silly) idea that removing the muzzle flash and the skulk bite would make things balanced. Again, this is an answer as to why they will not and cannot be changed and you brush them both aside. You want to know WHY they were implemented in the first place? Well that's been said a dozen times also. There are two main reasons:<ul>
<li>Balance
<li>Immersion</ul>
But why do I think you'll not understand either one of those? Or that you'll just brush them aside as unimportant?
Also... I would like to point something out... Immersion is a VERY important part of the NS experience, but by removing or even reducing either of these the immersion factor will take a very steep fall. If you don't care about immersion, that's fine, but I do not think you should be entitled to an opinion if you cannot accept one of the most important parts of the NS experience, because that one idea helped decide so many things in the game.
Now for the other posts....
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If this DOESN'T bother you, (and I'm talking to everyone) you shouldn't be in this thread flaming people who are voicing their concerns about the gaming experience of NS. This is a legitimate complaint that should be looked at. It can't hurt the game. (it'll only hurt the people who feel like they lost a battle they shouldn't have taken up in the first place)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are totally missing the point of those people who are expressing their OPPOSING OPINIONS. But to try to help you out, please refer the the first quote in my post, maybe then you'll understand.
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The developers never intended it to be a handicap and probably haven't even considered it until full release when some people complained. This doesn't mean they MEANT for it to be this way and should be kept for their sake. It means now they can modify and improve the game for a larger audience, because people ARE speaking out. I'm sort of ashamed of the forumers who are shunning the players for addressing this issue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where do you think this? The developers DID intend for these so called "issues" to be handicaps, that's why they're used for balancing purposes. And why do you even think for a second that they did not mean for it to be this way? Have you not even been reading BM's posts?? They meant for it to be exactly this way.
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But the most significant thing I saw on this thread was mentioned back on page 3 - that the muzzle flash changes apparent size with screen resolution. Now THAT's a significant problem, and possibly why lots of people (possibly playing at 1600x1200) have no problem it, and people like me (running at 800x600) find it quite disconcerting. This should be fixed - it's clearly a bug, and it's not fair to have it covering 4 times as much screen area because you have to run at a lower resolution.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All this means is that it is relative. It will cover the same percentage of screen space at different resolutions. Making it so that different resolutions would not have any advantages over others.
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Personally, I never thought of complaining about these issues until some people brought it up here. I'm fine with either way, but I would like these players to have a better gaming experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, we can all wish that everyone will have a great gaming experience, but I hope that will not come at too high of a cost (e.g. changing the game to cheapen skills learned and reducing the immersion factor at the same time).
You opinions have been heard. Your reasons have been shot down. It would not improve the game, it would actually detract significantly from it. At least that is what those of us who have adapted and can play quite well with them believe. To be honest, I do not think there is even a valid gripe here. The complaint boils down to:
<ul>
<li>It makes it harder to aim/bite.
<li>I do not like it.
</ul>
There are others, I just can't think of them at the moment. Either way, they totally overlook the intentions of the developers. Not to mention the actual success of implementing these handicaps. I'll say it again... Removing or reducing either would severely change the NS experience in detrimental aspects.
/me refers everyone to the first part of my last post.
I've played with r_drawviewmodel 0 (befor I was told they're taking it out and befor I tested and discoverd that they've made the model scale with the res), and sure it helps me hit stuff but only stupid stuff I can hit anyway if I'm not on a really bad day. It doesn't help me hit that skulk who's got into the room and is charging around me while I leap about like a mad thing trying to shoot it off my boots.
At the end of the day it's the devs game and its their call on how they want the game to play, BUT it does annoy the hell out of me, vision imparement is just such a bizzare and unusual way of making the game harder.
You could get the same effect for the marines by having the gun lose accuracy as you fire it by having the 'cone' that your gun fires in expand as it fires. I'd also like to see that cone change with you sitting, standing, running or jumping. I know this is a fair amount of coding for the devs but toning down muzzle flash for some accuracy changes would be cool. It really bugs me when i'm a bug that the marines can be accurate while leaping around. Marines leaping about and firing look daft.
BlueGhost
The muzzle flash thing for marines is a non-issue unless for some reason you enjoy full-auto.. which you shouldn't really. Coming from CS and having the 'burst fire' habit.. this muzzle flash thing hasn't been a problem.
LOL!
And nice post, othell.
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Hahahaa, that is a horrible argument. In 1.00 I learned valuable skills in helping me take on the marine horde as an alien when I was out-numbered and out-gunned. The skills others and I learned during this period were not wasted in any way. They made me a much better alien player when teams were evened. To tone down the skulk bite and muzzle flash would not take away from the skills you have already gained.
And to say, "The NS team developed this game out of the kindness of their hearts, they weren't paid. If you don't like it you can leave and play another game," is just rediculous. These boards have a suggestion forum for a reason. No game is perfect, and the input that players bring into these boards are all geared toward making this game as enjoyable as possible. Their intent is not to sabotage this game, to anger forum members, or to beat a dead horse. They merely want to make their gaming experience as enjoyable as possible.
01Chrono
P.S. Only some sharks roll their eyes while attacking, others use a clear eyelid to protect their eyes from thrashing victims.
You obviously do not understand what is being said. We never said that the skills we've learned would not be helpfull if either was toned down or taken way. We said they would be cheapened. They would no longer be as much of a sought after skill. Please try to understand the argument before you respond to it next time.
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These boards have a suggestion forum for a reason. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd think they'd learn to read first then....
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god bless r_drawviewmodel 0 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't get too used to it.
As for the muzzle flash I have never noticed it and I play 800*600. Crosshairs are the only thing that gets in my way.
So as you said,
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please try to understand the argument before you respond to it next time.
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K, thx.
01Chrono
So as you said,
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please try to understand the argument before you respond to it next time.
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K, thx.
01Chrono<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're still quite mistaken. You're assuming that just because something is cheapened that it was a waste. Two things that do not necessarily have to go together. The skills themselves would never be a waste (unless auto-aim was ever implemented). They would just be less important to the NS experience, thus the idea of them being cheapened. Not wasted. So in fact you have not understood what is being said. You do keep making assumptions that are not true though. At least you're consistent.
1) No matter what you think, setting r_drawviewmodel to 0 IS a cheat. The dev team considers it a cheat, leagues consider it a cheat. case closed.
2) Making scripts to turn off your teeth/weapon models when you attack and then restoring them after you attack is also without doubt a lame script. Think about it, if they made it so that when you turned your viewmodel off you couldnt see half of the stuff going on around you(aliens lose hivesight, marines lose waypoints and perhaps more things, i have yet to try it) dont you think they did that for a reason? They could have just left it on even if the viewmodel was off if they had intended for this sort of thing to happen.
3) Custom models that reduce mussleflash, bite size, and generally make it easier for a person to aim that most others can with regular models is not accepted in ANY leagues. If you want to play with custom models that include this kind of thing go play in a server that allows custom models, dont force the decision of "making teeth less intrusive" on other players. If you want you can get one of the many models out there people who cant get used to the bite play with that wont let you be in a respectable clan or a respectable league.
4) I play on 800x600 on a very low end computer, i could argue and say "well, it would increase my fps!" I would be wrong. I tested this, my fps gain was 0, thast right 0. NS models are very well made and efficient, they dont considerably lower your fps rate. And if it did, im sure most of the people complaining about the issue play on high end computers, so theres no way you can use this argument now since you would have brought it up earlier if you really cared about it. The mussleflash or the skulk bite do not bother me, i learned to control my bites.
5) NS is not a realism mod, nobody cares (at least not the developers and myself) if the skulk's eyes appear to be outside their mouth while they attack from the inside, this adds to the inmersion and is the only reason it was put it. I have played mods where melee combat is simply boring and i just erased the mod from my very small HardDrive after the second time i played that mod. Bite model adds to inmersion and should not be taken out.
Finally, im just going to say that everyone who complains about the models and "impairing your playing ability" and other such things needs to just get used ot it. NS is a different mod that requires different skills from all others, learning to get over such "handicaps" as you call them is what "skill" is about. This is NOT CS(and im not bashing it, im just pointing out the differences between mods) you cant expect to be good at NS only because you learned how to aim without a gun model.
wow
lol
Well...
I guess someone had to say it... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well...
I guess someone had to say it... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think he was being sarcastic.
Keep in mind that sarcasm and genuity are extremely hard to convey in written form.
PS: Please tell where i was rude so i can try to improve on that in the future, i reread the post and saw nothing wrong with it.
Yeah, got that. Refer to my post above.