<!--QuoteBegin--Big Game Hunter+Dec 18 2002, 01:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Big Game Hunter @ Dec 18 2002, 01:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would like to add some new input. Without taking sides, just let me say that I and many others really, really enjoy using custom models and artwork. I think custom models enrich the community, and can drastically improve the game. Locking the models to prevent cheating unfairly punishes the rest of us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really doubt you'll find better HL engine models that fit NS than whats already in NS, so that kind of ..... isn't too true. In many mods this may be true, but NS is a game where the sides are utterly different and balance is a very tipsey scale. VERY tipsey. A single round can last a long time, and a slight advantage can thusly become magnified in its effect over the course of a round. Any model change that upsets the balance the slightest bit cannot be allowed.
Make bite animation faster and reduce the muzzle flash to something like an MP5 in CS. When I first played NS I found the muzzle flash very obstructive and still do! Keep the bite model, it is very cool, just maybe faster, but I really never had a problem.
But you talking to a guy who can play CS with 20 FPS and still do good. So I can handle the slideshow. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I really doubt you'll find better HL engine models that fit NS than whats already in NS, so that kind of ..... isn't too true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is simply not true, go check out the modeling forum.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Any model change that upsets the balance the slightest bit cannot be allowed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not talking about either the muzzle flash or the bite animation, I am talking about everything else that would be affected by disallowing custom models.
I like the comment about trying to take a screenshot of a muzzle flash in another game... basically it was not possible cause either the flash was too transparent, or too quick.
And this is true. No game has ever tried to handicap a players view in a FPS before. I mean look at what your sitting in front of right now. Visual stimuli. The majority of video games is based on visuals. This is why people are getting upset and finding ways to remove the obstructions. And they are surprised to find that they are being called cheaters for wanting to play how they "normally" play; with the whole view of the screen, no obstructions.
The unfortunate thing about custom models is that it can be used as a blatant cheat. This is why mp_consistency is needed. I think we all agree that replacing the skulk's model with a flourescent green hitbox with 4 foot poles extending out on all axes is crossing the line that BM was refering to. Sadly this is categorized under "custom model" yet is a cheat, which in turn means mp_consistency is needed. But then again, most pubs could care less about mp_consistency, and will probably be defaulted to 0 upon patch release. This is really only a concern for tournaments and competitive servers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Imagine, the guy who invents a game actually thinking that that gives him the right to define rules for it! Talk about nerve! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How pointless this discussion is.
The funny thing is, while the development team has all moral and legal rights to define the rules of their game, they do not have the POWER.
Display of view_models and muzzle flashes are CLIENT-SIDE options. That means the client chooses how to behave.
The NS development team has control only over the servers, not the clients. No matter how difficult they make it to adjust a client option, it CAN be adjusted and this change cannot be detected. All they can do is increasing the challenge for the code reversers, but ultimately they are fighting a lost battle.
I know this is frustrating and I symphatize with their struggle to retain some kind of control over their own game; however, sometime they must realize that code spread to hundredthousands of private households worldwide cannot be controlled anymore.
Again: Turning off muzzle flashes or other client-side stuff might be cheating, or it might not. It doesn't matter at all, because it cannot be detected. Stop worrying about things beyond your control, or the paranoia will kill your joy.
Although no one will read my post and if any one does they will probably not care, here goes.
There are in my opinion 3 kinds of players: Quakers, CS-players and UT'ers.
When a Quaker dies in a game he isn't used to, he goes: "Man, if I only could tweak this game a bit so I could use my full potential."
When a CS-player dies in a game he's never played before (tho, CS-players usually stick to CS), he says: "**obscenity** **obscenity** LUCKY **obscenity** THAT'S BS! IT'S TOO EASY TO KILL IN THIS GAME!"
When a UT'er is killed, he smiles and says: "What a beautiful explosion that was."
The case with this 'feature', if you could call it that, is that the CS-players and UT'ers is perfectly happy while the Quakers feel frustrated. It makes killing lots of marines in a row harder (as stated by some guy in another thread some weeks ago) and marines have almost half their screen covered to prevent John Woo-heroics from getting in the way of teamplay. And it looks 'good' (not imo, but others apparently thinks so). As Mark Rein, dispiced by pro-gamers around the globe, stated: "Eye candy = gameplay".
That leaves one audience discontent, the Quakers. Sure, you can leave it at that and lose a relatively small number of players, or you could just leave r_drawviewmodel as a cvar variable for those that doesn't like getting owned by the engine itself.
This is currently considered a cheat, for some obscure reason (I would like to see who first stated this). That's really weird when you consider that even UT2k3 allows the 'eye candy' to be turned off. Balance purposes? Cheap way to balance a game, honestly. It's like... hmm... I can't think of anything as weird as this. Balancing a game by making gameplay (for some people) worse? Sure, anyone can play without it, but it still feels as a ball and chain that you cannot see for an instant while biting and that your muzzle flash has a larger animation than the RtCW flamethrower.
And lastly, for the people saying, "They made the game, stfu and play.": If this game wasn't great, then no one would complain. The fact is that the game is the best MP-game in a very long time now and everyone just loves it! These are just polite suggestions and I hope the dev's will take some time to think about the issue.
We all want a piece of the cake, 'cause it's so damn good.
I for one think that diminishing the muzzleflash AND altering the skulk bite would be an excellent idea. And since both features would be changed, the balance would remain.
Changing the crosshair is allowed as far as I've heard. So change your crosshair. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Changing the crosshair is allowed as far as I've heard. So change your crosshair. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Technically there is no difference between a crosshair and a muzzle flash. Both are sprites. If you can change one, you can change the other.
Big difference betwen changing a crosshair, which is just the location your gun is pointing at allowing you to fire more accurately, and deleting/modifying an obstruction sprite which removes it of its function. The crosshair will still remain a kind of "laser sight."
Here's my crosshair, which is basically a mouse cursor that's transparent in the inside. Does it really allow me a better tracking of my targets? Not necessarily. <img src='http://www10.brinkster.com/beauce/crosshair.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
While crosshairs are not enforced by cyberathlete leagues, muzzle flashes and most models are. And there's a reason to that.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
edited December 2002
<!--QuoteBegin--SoBe.Dragon+Dec 17 2002, 10:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoBe.Dragon @ Dec 17 2002, 10:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i dont believe you that its going to be locked in the next patch. and if they are, I/we will find a way around it.
Show me your proof, dont call yourself lazy. I think that I am just calling out your bluff...prove me wrong<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nanogridlock which is the official server persay disables r_drawviewmodel but amongst other interesting things on that server you get kicked/threatened with banning if you rush and motion tracking is disabled.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited December 2002
<!--QuoteBegin--Minstrel Knight+Dec 18 2002, 11:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Dec 18 2002, 11:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nanogridlock which is the official server persay disables r_drawviewmodel but amongst other interesting things on that server you get kicked/threatened with banning if you rush and motion tracking is disabled.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just to clear up a few things...
1) Nano-Gridlock is <a href='http://www.box7.co.uk/ec/' target='_blank'>my clan</a>'s server; it is not the "official" server, just a favorite among many of the IRC regulars, a few of the more well-known clans, and a fairly substantial number of playtesters.
2) Yes, r_drawviewmodel has been disabled on NG. I think it's a beautiful, beautiful thing.
3) Motion Tracking is not disabled; it does not work on Linux servers and will be fixed in a future patch.
4) [edit] The incident of an admin threatening to ban for rushing was an isolated incident, and certainly not "common practice" on NG. If I have anything to say about it, it's never going to happen again.
In my opinion there is a big difference between muzzle flash and a crosshair. A crosshairs purpose is to show you where you shots go, changing what it looks like shouldn't make any difference (However, enabling a crosshair where the game normally doesn't let you have one, EG CS AWP unzoomed would be an 'exploit').
A muzzleflash is visual feedback of your gun firing and really just a pretty graphics effect. However it does block some of your view and in my opinion changing it to something far less obstructing would also be an exploit similar to r_drawviewmodel.
Basically, I believe changing anything that was meant to have an effect on the gameplay, such as dark models, obstructive view models etc... is an exploit as you are not playing on a level playing field as everyone else, it might not give you a great huge advantage like using an aimbot but you are tilting the game balance in your favour.
I don't care how frustrated you are, if you can't reply to a topic without insulting someone, or a group of people, do me a favor and click the little x in the top right instead of add reply.
Norm, I already stated that no devs have said they aren't going to change the muzzle flash or bite model, and no devs have said they are going to change the muzzle flash or bite model. That doesn't make this a dead issue, it only means the devs are open to the players opinions. Which in turn means this thread will continue.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if it's not broken don't fix it plz... i find i can shoot and bite just fine and i suck at the game. just learn to deal with it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the issue isnt about learning to cope with it, and it not about "dealing". I NEVER said it was hard to play with the models in place, EVER. For me its easier to play with them off, yes. But for someone else, it might be easier for them to play with the models on. Thats why this is not a balance issue, cause every case is different.
All I was saying is that with them off, you get better frames, and its less obstructive, so you can see the entire playing field.
ok 1.04 IS ANNOUNCED...in this patch will be the hardcode that will lock r_drawviewmodel to 1 ..hahahaha no more disabling muzzle flash and skulk teeth for you....your days are numbered.
thats what i said on page 7 or 8 i think....didnt stop them though. oh well...we can only hope they will understand that r_drawviewmodel will be locked to 1 in the next patch and that there is no point in whining about it now.
Comments
I really doubt you'll find better HL engine models that fit NS than whats already in NS, so that kind of ..... isn't too true.
In many mods this may be true, but NS is a game where the sides are utterly different and balance is a very tipsey scale. VERY tipsey.
A single round can last a long time, and a slight advantage can thusly become magnified in its effect over the course of a round.
Any model change that upsets the balance the slightest bit cannot be allowed.
But you talking to a guy who can play CS with 20 FPS and still do good. So I can handle the slideshow. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is simply not true, go check out the modeling forum.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Any model change that upsets the balance the slightest bit cannot be allowed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not talking about either the muzzle flash or the bite animation, I am talking about everything else that would be affected by disallowing custom models.
And this is true. No game has ever tried to handicap a players view in a FPS before. I mean look at what your sitting in front of right now. Visual stimuli. The majority of video games is based on visuals. This is why people are getting upset and finding ways to remove the obstructions. And they are surprised to find that they are being called cheaters for wanting to play how they "normally" play; with the whole view of the screen, no obstructions.
How pointless this discussion is.
The funny thing is, while the development team has all moral and legal rights to define the rules of their game, they do not have the POWER.
Display of view_models and muzzle flashes are CLIENT-SIDE options. That means the client chooses how to behave.
The NS development team has control only over the servers, not the clients. No matter how difficult they make it to adjust a client option, it CAN be adjusted and this change cannot be detected. All they can do is increasing the challenge for the code reversers, but ultimately they are fighting a lost battle.
I know this is frustrating and I symphatize with their struggle to retain some kind of control over their own game; however, sometime they must realize that code spread to hundredthousands of private households worldwide cannot be controlled anymore.
Again: Turning off muzzle flashes or other client-side stuff might be cheating, or it might not. It doesn't matter at all, because it cannot be detected. Stop worrying about things beyond your control, or the paranoia will kill your joy.
There are in my opinion 3 kinds of players: Quakers, CS-players and UT'ers.
When a Quaker dies in a game he isn't used to, he goes: "Man, if I only could tweak this game a bit so I could use my full potential."
When a CS-player dies in a game he's never played before (tho, CS-players usually stick to CS), he says: "**obscenity** **obscenity** LUCKY **obscenity** THAT'S BS! IT'S TOO EASY TO KILL IN THIS GAME!"
When a UT'er is killed, he smiles and says: "What a beautiful explosion that was."
The case with this 'feature', if you could call it that, is that the CS-players and UT'ers is perfectly happy while the Quakers feel frustrated. It makes killing lots of marines in a row harder (as stated by some guy in another thread some weeks ago) and marines have almost half their screen covered to prevent John Woo-heroics from getting in the way of teamplay. And it looks 'good' (not imo, but others apparently thinks so). As Mark Rein, dispiced by pro-gamers around the globe, stated: "Eye candy = gameplay".
That leaves one audience discontent, the Quakers. Sure, you can leave it at that and lose a relatively small number of players, or you could just leave r_drawviewmodel as a cvar variable for those that doesn't like getting owned by the engine itself.
This is currently considered a cheat, for some obscure reason (I would like to see who first stated this). That's really weird when you consider that even UT2k3 allows the 'eye candy' to be turned off. Balance purposes? Cheap way to balance a game, honestly. It's like... hmm... I can't think of anything as weird as this. Balancing a game by making gameplay (for some people) worse? Sure, anyone can play without it, but it still feels as a ball and chain that you cannot see for an instant while biting and that your muzzle flash has a larger animation than the RtCW flamethrower.
And lastly, for the people saying, "They made the game, stfu and play.": If this game wasn't great, then no one would complain. The fact is that the game is the best MP-game in a very long time now and everyone just loves it! These are just polite suggestions and I hope the dev's will take some time to think about the issue.
We all want a piece of the cake, 'cause it's so damn good.
If you have nothing nice to say...</span>
Technically there is no difference between a crosshair and a muzzle flash. Both are sprites. If you can change one, you can change the other.
Here's my crosshair, which is basically a mouse cursor that's transparent in the inside. Does it really allow me a better tracking of my targets? Not necessarily.
<img src='http://www10.brinkster.com/beauce/crosshair.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
While crosshairs are not enforced by cyberathlete leagues, muzzle flashes and most models are. And there's a reason to that.
as for the eyes being in his mouth... does it really make that big of a difference? it's only a game... not meant to make sense.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Show me your proof, dont call yourself lazy. I think that I am just calling out your bluff...prove me wrong<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nanogridlock which is the official server persay disables r_drawviewmodel but amongst other interesting things on that server you get kicked/threatened with banning if you rush and motion tracking is disabled.
Just to clear up a few things...
1) Nano-Gridlock is <a href='http://www.box7.co.uk/ec/' target='_blank'>my clan</a>'s server; it is not the "official" server, just a favorite among many of the IRC regulars, a few of the more well-known clans, and a fairly substantial number of playtesters.
2) Yes, r_drawviewmodel has been disabled on NG. I think it's a beautiful, beautiful thing.
3) Motion Tracking is not disabled; it does not work on Linux servers and will be fixed in a future patch.
4) [edit] The incident of an admin threatening to ban for rushing was an isolated incident, and certainly not "common practice" on NG. If I have anything to say about it, it's never going to happen again.
In my opinion there is a big difference between muzzle flash and a crosshair. A crosshairs purpose is to show you where you shots go, changing what it looks like shouldn't make any difference (However, enabling a crosshair where the game normally doesn't let you have one, EG CS AWP unzoomed would be an 'exploit').
A muzzleflash is visual feedback of your gun firing and really just a pretty graphics effect. However it does block some of your view and in my opinion changing it to something far less obstructing would also be an exploit similar to r_drawviewmodel.
Basically, I believe changing anything that was meant to have an effect on the gameplay, such as dark models, obstructive view models etc... is an exploit as you are not playing on a level playing field as everyone else, it might not give you a great huge advantage like using an aimbot but you are tilting the game balance in your favour.
I don't care how frustrated you are, if you can't reply to a topic without insulting someone, or a group of people, do me a favor and click the little x in the top right instead of add reply.
the issue isnt about learning to cope with it, and it not about "dealing". I NEVER said it was hard to play with the models in place, EVER. For me its easier to play with them off, yes. But for someone else, it might be easier for them to play with the models on. Thats why this is not a balance issue, cause every case is different.
All I was saying is that with them off, you get better frames, and its less obstructive, so you can see the entire playing field.
no more disabling muzzle flash and skulk teeth for you....your days are numbered.
r_drawviewmodel will be locked to 1 in the next patch and that there is no point in whining about it now.
Got boredom?