The game depends too much on commander
Deagle2
Join Date: 2010-11-30 Member: 75360Members
Join Date: 2010-11-30 Member: 75360Members
I know opinions must be very different on this subject, but Unknown World said they would make NS2 more user friendly than the previous one.
So old NS2 players are probably going to disagree with me, but I think that the commander currently has too much influence on the game.
If a noob commander (like me) jumps into an hive, you are sure to lose the game, and even if there can be several hives, the first commander still have to build it.
I know NS2 is a mix of RTS/FPS and I like it, but currently this means that the game depends on one guy, and it'll be even worse when it'll be on 16v16
So I don't know how to make it better, but that's my feedback about the commander stuff.
So old NS2 players are probably going to disagree with me, but I think that the commander currently has too much influence on the game.
If a noob commander (like me) jumps into an hive, you are sure to lose the game, and even if there can be several hives, the first commander still have to build it.
I know NS2 is a mix of RTS/FPS and I like it, but currently this means that the game depends on one guy, and it'll be even worse when it'll be on 16v16
So I don't know how to make it better, but that's my feedback about the commander stuff.
Comments
The Commander is the most important position on each team and the full team depends on it. It's not easy and sad poor players will always complain (and insult) on you when you are still learning how to do it. It happens on simple games where you only have to build with blocks, so imagine that here will happen too.
Every aspect of the game is going to be balanced and re-balanced until final version.
1. The game does not start until both commanders have either;
a) Entered the commander's chair
b) Been voted for by the team
c) Something else
2. Methods of easing the learning curve, so people understand the game and feel comfortable jumping in the seat.
This could be anything from straight up tutorials (which I think are bad) through to visual/audible/text based hints. There are points of interaction from joining the ready room, through to possible cinematics before the game starts, etc, etc.
If you placed cinematic and story based moments into these points that helped explain certain aspects, it would help to solidify things in a players mind.
This could be anything from being told the basic tech tree, the mort important structures, etc within the time it takes to load yourself into the command chair. Be it 10 seconds of visuals with some sexy sci-fi female voice.
Obviously this is only needed the first few times, but things like this at certain points would really help imo. Even if it was just:
"Place resource towers to increase your income, and fight for tech nodes to increase your technology. Remember, without income you will not progress."
if this leads to a loss (say an ejected commander is the last guy on the team alive and can't get in to drop a new ip) then oh well, shouldn't have been a bad commander in the first place, you were probably going to lose anyway.
"eject commander" vote system +1
this could be set up in a commander tutorial map where you play with all bots. you hop in the cc and designate bots into squads and give them waypoints and build/attack/defend orders.
basic ai bots here on both sides so it plays pretty boring and nothing fancy happens, but you get the gist of your tech trees and how to expand. bots are in but i'm not sure how smart they are yet.
alien commanders should be limited if anything, gorges must have more options what to do. For example gorges can drop same chambers as they did in ns1, but only alien commander can enhance those chambers, in other words upgrade them further. Gorges can drop rts as well not just alien commanders. They made alien commanding too much like marine commanding, it has only slight difference, not much honestly.
aside from this rent, commanding is always be challenging if its not it will not be fun.
Although since many things about aliens are either broken or gimped, I share your problems as well, this needs to improve but commanding isn't for everyone, make local host game, and study it, this is how you learn. Also remembering to bind keys, and remembering hotkeys for your interface would help you to be quick to respond to problems, this what was needed in ns1.
Commanding should be for everyone, because when you buy the game you'd expect to be able to play it in it's full force, right now it's realy hard to learn, but even though a tutorial would help a bit, I think the main thing that is hard to learn is how to play strategically, and I don't think tutorials would help you a lot with that.
I personnaly think that the commander should give an advantage to the team that plays it well, but not a big disadvantage when people doesn't play it well.
Sometimes noone jumps into commander, and since nothing is built, the team has zero chance to win. they can't push forward, they can't evolve, they can't get upgrades. So some people feel obligated to go commander, wich I think is not good at all, you should always be able to do what you want to.
To me the main solution would be like ScardyBob said, make the commander role more automated, but allow players to "accelerate" the process.
Of couse the Hard part would be about balancing it so it is still usefull but not necessary. I personnaly prefer the FPS side of NS2 and I know I'm not the only one, even though I like to play commander from type to type, but I am a bad commander so... I feel like I shouldn't even jump in.
Alien winning on rockdown is really easy with DI. Marine winning on tram is really easy too if you follow some basic tactics at the start (armoury, marine expansion, shotguns, upgrade ext, take double res, expand)
This would then make them different, kind of like saying that the Kharaa are stupid and don't have organisation and the Marines and intelligent and they do have organisation. This makes the Kharaa players less dependent on their command and allow them to do their own thing. (Like in NS1) and people liked that.
just follow these simple tips
1. make localhost game, learn the commands
2. start using microphone
3. remember hotkeys for your commanding interface, binding keys comes into play as well
4. understand how the game works, what counters what
5. understand key positions on the map, which to hold which to take
i'm sure more ideas can be added, these were just top of my head. I used to command in ns1, and i still do sometimes in ns2, but i do not find ns2 commanding much fun with current big balance problems, and gimped abilities. Much of the game is still missing from ns2, and many abilities are still work in progress, its basically take it or leave it currently until they iron out stability issues, and fix all the abilities/balance issues.
ants and bees and other swarming insects may have a pyramidic structure with the mother at the top, but taking a player out from the melee based team is creating a crap load of trouble in regards to balancing. make them too weak, they complain. make them too beefy, the marines complain. ok, who am i kidding. individuals of each side allways complain, but with the flamer… its getting out of hand lately.
of course, the other option is to ignore upgrading and constructing, but everyone should know what that results in.
+1 giving gorges the constructor role, else make switching between skulk and gorge free of charge.
I for one liked hopping into a game and not having to always follow a commanders instructions, I did like the way you would occasioanlyl get a surprise with the tech researched (ie sense before def)....but primarily I liked not having 1 person who could lose a game for you (or win it for that matter).
Whilst I know UWE want to keep the alien comm I think reconsidering how to integrate is a good idea.
Unlike the marines I do not believe the aliens should be as reliant on the comm role due to the hive mind.
The alien comm should not be as critical as it is currently to the alien side, aliens should vote in a comm and their role is to simply to select tech advances (via a pop up window when the time comes and they are on DI (no reason for alien comm to be stuck in one spot like the marines...after all they have the hive mind)).
This would allow the aliens to have the extra melee player which imo helped make the balancing work.
Leave the placement of items to gorges (possibly with the exception of hives), I dont know why but only being able to put down hydras and di seems limited and its as if they have stripped the gorge down too much to try to create a full time comm role with enough to keep them amused.
Oh and DI should enhance buildings (increased ROF, Regen etc) not restrict them...buildings not on DI operate at say 1/2 or 1/4 of those built on DI.
my 2c...keep up the great work...we are all just a bunch of whingers who will never be 100% happy ;)
Please don't post comments like this. No offence, but they are ignorant.
CS which had the smallest learning curve in any game I have played, yet player skill was probably the most diverse and varied than any other game I have played.
Games that require one person to play at a high level are limited, in that you are not dealing with a team of players who have to organise themselves, communicate and rely on one another. This is where the internet, team play and the like take gaming to that next level and should be encouraged further.
As for saying that it should be hard to 'learn' the game, that is a stupid comment. You'll take the games industry back in time like Marty McFly saying things like that.
The only complex thing that this game should have is the game play mechanics, but they should be easy to wrap your head around, understand and learn.
You repeatedly get threads on here regarding 'consoles are this', 'pc games are that' and it is truly rubbish.
As casual gamer wants to jump on and play, the market understands that demographic and therefore designs around it.
The hardcore / PC community like more depth, so the game takes longer to learn.
But in no way should you make the learning process harder for any game. I believe it is possible to have a complex game and yet create a learning curve (this has nothing to do with the games complexity) that allows any person to sit down and start effectively learning the game from the moment they open the application until they are in a CC.
Well, then get an AI commander that is able to do things on its own. This probably won't ever happen and if it did it would take a while for them to program but yea, that would balance everything out.
People will still be able to take the commander position but if no one is able to do it properly and everyone is being a buttmonkey then leave it to AI.
My 2 cents.
With time, commanders will become better, strategies will emerge etc. I wouldn't worry too much.
Marine commander using strategies, squads, and stuff like that.
Kharaa commander just upgrading the players allowing them to better. No tactics, or squads. The Kharaa commander just helps out the players.
This makes the Marine commander and the Kharaa commander different.
And I would like to see that.
I agree.
Mixing RTS and FPS isn't easy. Relying on your humanoid team mates in a public server for example, will drive people away as that's not how the RTS structure works. RTS is you click, your units go, no questions, no quarrals, 100% aim/hit chance too.
I'd rather see commander mode really dumbed down, placing structures. Offering additional support via packs, upgrades, nodes, unlocking/locking doors. Nothing too fancy on either side, particularly as managing DI on the alien commander side will be a challenge enough for most public players.
Yes it sucks, yes it ruins games, yes it is difficult to defend, no it's not likely to change.
<!--quoteo(post=1834036:date=Feb 21 2011, 01:13 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Feb 21 2011, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All I want to see in the game is:
Marine commander using strategies, squads, and stuff like that.
Kharaa commander just upgrading the players allowing them to better. No tactics, or squads. The Kharaa commander just helps out the players.
This makes the Marine commander and the Kharaa commander different.
And I would like to see that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It also sort of requires the alien team to be played by actual aliens.
Human tactics exist for a reason, because they are the kinds of things we can pull off, and we benefit from them, as the alien team is played by human players, they are going to use human tactics like squads and flanking and division of roles in order to win, you can't stop that unless you force players to be lobotomised before playing the alien team.
I take offense to this :O
I very much hate COD, but i did love combat, mainly because of the fact i didnt know what i was doing in NS1 and i didnt care or want to take the time to learn, no one wanted to help, so i just played combat, you need far more skill in combat mode then any COD game.
Human tactics exist for a reason, because they are the kinds of things we can pull off, and we benefit from them, as the alien team is played by human players, they are going to use human tactics like squads and flanking and division of roles in order to win, you can't stop that unless you force players to be lobotomised before playing the alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but, without a commander to lead the aliens around they will most likely just do thier own thing. In the games that I play the commander doesn't do much to tell us what to do (Kharaa side) they just advance the infestation and build things. I find this useful and it also means that the commander doesn't rely on the players. So, that means you have freewill in the game as an Alien.
In the marine game that I played I had a very good marine commander who was leading us around. I like to be told what to do on the marine side but if that happens on the Kharaa side I won't be very happy.
Basically, I like the kharaa because I have freewill in killing who I want and what I want.
I like the marine side because there is organisation and it seems to fit well when you are told what to do as a group.
+1
fixed.
wait, what am I saying? that's just wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1833973:date=Feb 21 2011, 05:05 AM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Feb 21 2011, 05:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i've never been a fan of the "2" in "NS2" to begin with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fixed.