Why do we do these things
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Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Design Decisions that I Disagree with</div>These aren't necessarily things that I want changed, the reasoning behind the design decisions is probably enough.
<ol type='1'><li>After taking a tech point we also have to upgrade a station/hive. Isn't it enough to just require X tech points to be captured? </li><li>Why does Tram have those natural expansions so close to the start points? Shouldn't there be difficulty and risk involved in teching up?</li><li>Skulks can't leap mid-air. Now that mini-leap isn't usable while moving, this restriction should be removed, for the sake of fun tier 2 gameplay.</li><li>Fade second attack can't hit moving targets and deals less DPS. What situation was it meant for?</li><li>Gorge infestation fades even if connected to overmind infestation. It takes ages to make a "bridge" using those small patches, isn't that enough of a disadvantage? Make them cost 1 plasma each if you have to, being able to assist the overmind directly would be so much fun.</li><li>How come we don't get more information on our HUDs, such as upgrade levels? Even essential things like team and personal resource counts are missing... I don't mind the healthbar hiding for aliens when outside of combat though.</li><li>After purchasing a weapon at the armoury, shouldn't the menu close immediately? Even once we have exo/jp we'll be buying single items the vast majority of the time (tier 1&2).</li><li>Weren't alien players supposed to be able to use the "trigger" abilities of structures, like Crag Umbra? That sounded like a neat idea, expanding from the old NS1 functionality, but it's nowhere to be seen.</li><li>Why was the Arms Lab cut in favour of placing every important marine upgrade on the Armoury? It's already a critical structure, what with buying weapons with personal resources.</li><li>Gorges place hydras/infestation immediately in front of them, with a delay for the uh, disgorging animation. This means that you can't move and place structures where you actually want them at the same time. If this is desired, just stop all movement while placing; if it's undesired, either place instantly or lob an "egg" projectile a very short distance that grows into the hydra/infestation.</li></ol>
edit: added numerical listing for ease of reference
<ol type='1'><li>After taking a tech point we also have to upgrade a station/hive. Isn't it enough to just require X tech points to be captured? </li><li>Why does Tram have those natural expansions so close to the start points? Shouldn't there be difficulty and risk involved in teching up?</li><li>Skulks can't leap mid-air. Now that mini-leap isn't usable while moving, this restriction should be removed, for the sake of fun tier 2 gameplay.</li><li>Fade second attack can't hit moving targets and deals less DPS. What situation was it meant for?</li><li>Gorge infestation fades even if connected to overmind infestation. It takes ages to make a "bridge" using those small patches, isn't that enough of a disadvantage? Make them cost 1 plasma each if you have to, being able to assist the overmind directly would be so much fun.</li><li>How come we don't get more information on our HUDs, such as upgrade levels? Even essential things like team and personal resource counts are missing... I don't mind the healthbar hiding for aliens when outside of combat though.</li><li>After purchasing a weapon at the armoury, shouldn't the menu close immediately? Even once we have exo/jp we'll be buying single items the vast majority of the time (tier 1&2).</li><li>Weren't alien players supposed to be able to use the "trigger" abilities of structures, like Crag Umbra? That sounded like a neat idea, expanding from the old NS1 functionality, but it's nowhere to be seen.</li><li>Why was the Arms Lab cut in favour of placing every important marine upgrade on the Armoury? It's already a critical structure, what with buying weapons with personal resources.</li><li>Gorges place hydras/infestation immediately in front of them, with a delay for the uh, disgorging animation. This means that you can't move and place structures where you actually want them at the same time. If this is desired, just stop all movement while placing; if it's undesired, either place instantly or lob an "egg" projectile a very short distance that grows into the hydra/infestation.</li></ol>
edit: added numerical listing for ease of reference
Comments
Aswell as the fact that the enemy team should be able of killing the upgraded cc/hive to remove the upgrades from rines (in my opinion).
Because it makes it easyer for both teams to get to second tech level, making the game progress a bit faster.
A skulk leaping mid-air would look wierd, and make no sense. I dont really like that idea.
I think it was meant for skilled ninja attacks, but I agree, it is not very usefull.
afaik the gorge patches are supposed to merge with the other infestation, might be wrong ofc.
I would love to be able to see how much PRes I have without having to open the scoreboard, and I actually expect them to add it, as it is something very usefull.
Didnt they say in a twitter that armory got changed to do exactly that? But I disagree with your idea. It keeps open incase you want to purchase upgrades aswell, instead they should add stuff like rmb/use to exit (besides the obvious walk away).
Never heard of that, and it would create problems with ppl draining the teams resources, as last time I checked, umbra takes 20 TRes.
No idea really, guess they wanted to simplify stuff seeing as they work just aswell when merged.
Didnt even know about that ;)
If you want a structure devoted entirely to upgrades, build a second armory.
I never saw the point in having a structure just to upgrade basic marine stats, seems kind of a waste, personally I'd stick them on the comm chair.
In NS hives were very important, the entire game was centered around holding them or taking them out. Now I barely care when a hive or CC goes down, they are so cheap I can just build a new one. I usually upgrade the relatively save starting tech point first, so I even keep the tech level.
Leap in midair feels fluid, I don't care if it is unrealistic. Also never looked wierd to me in NS.
The Fade's secondary attack is pretty useless and so is blink in it's current form.
DI will probably change a lot, but comm and Gorge DI should definitely be treated uniformly.
<!--quoteo(post=1833908:date=Feb 20 2011, 04:17 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Feb 20 2011, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why exactly do you need the arms lab?
If you want a structure devoted entirely to upgrades, build a second armory.
I never saw the point in having a structure just to upgrade basic marine stats, seems kind of a waste, personally I'd stick them on the comm chair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS you had a choice: Take out the AA and delay teching or take out the arms lab and deny them the armour and weapon upgrades.
The precise nature of the advantage doesn't really matter, and the mechanism you use to gain it does not change with the different structures, so there isn't any reason to have different structures.
Why doesn't it matter? Different kind of advantages work for different purposes on different moments of game. I don't want to take out the AA if I'm going to lose the 2nd hive, at that point I go for the armslab and buy momentarily advantage that makes the hive live longer. If I trust the hive survives anyway, I kill the AA and severly hinder the marine ability to gain and hold ground against 2 hive aliens. Killing armslab at that point is mostly just 20 res, no biggie.
<b>
As for armslab and armory thingy</b>, I think the 20 res investment is also a pretty big one depending on how I want to play the opening. If I want to play overly aggressive, I don't build a 20 res skulk sandwich that doesn't live long enough to upgrade anything anyway. I might as well invest that elsewhere or even save for later base rebuilding after the smoke has settled.
Having the 20 res armslab around also affects the way you can transition to later game phases. Investing 40 res on armslab and armor 1 isn't definitely as good as 4 shotguns right away. What makes it worth is the smooth 20 res transitioning into weapons 1 with just 20 res instead of having to collect together the 40 res later on. Simple stuff really, but I'd like to see it worked further in depth rather than just completely ignored in NS2.
Also, I had some map specific timings in which it mattered how many guys I had building building the armslab so that my first upgrade finished in time. For example in Metal you can build it with your SG pressure team, build the rest of the base and cap flight and mineral areas with the same group. Armor 1 finishes right when you push into the hostile zone through mineral processing chokepoint. Sort of nice slow push opening.
On maps like veil you could also get catpacks and hit the node early on. Once again you can adjust the base building timings and such depending on when you want the catpacks finished.
The RTS timings were obviously sort of minor adjustments and in no way life changing in general and often not even viable on all levels, but it's still something I enjoyed quite a lot while figuring out with my opening strategies. There wasn't too much strategical freedom in NS, so tweaking those little things gave it quite a lot of extra longrevity.
<ul><li>After taking a tech point we also have to upgrade a station/hive. Isn't it enough to just require X tech points to be captured? </li><li>Why does Tram have those natural expansions so close to the start points? Shouldn't there be difficulty and risk involved in teching up?</li><li>Skulks can't leap mid-air. Now that mini-leap isn't usable while moving, this restriction should be removed, for the sake of fun tier 2 gameplay.</li><li>Fade second attack can't hit moving targets and deals less DPS. What situation was it meant for?</li><li>Gorge infestation fades even if connected to overmind infestation. It takes ages to make a "bridge" using those small patches, isn't that enough of a disadvantage? Make them cost 1 plasma each if you have to, being able to assist the overmind directly would be so much fun.</li><li>How come we don't get more information on our HUDs, such as upgrade levels? Even essential things like team and personal resource counts are missing... I don't mind the healthbar hiding for aliens when outside of combat though.</li><li>After purchasing a weapon at the armoury, shouldn't the menu close immediately? Even once we have exo/jp we'll be buying single items the vast majority of the time (tier 1&2).</li><li>Weren't alien players supposed to be able to use the "trigger" abilities of structures, like Crag Umbra? That sounded like a neat idea, expanding from the old NS1 functionality, but it's nowhere to be seen.</li><li>Why was the Arms Lab cut in favour of placing every important marine upgrade on the Armoury? It's already a critical structure, what with buying weapons with personal resources.</li><li>Gorges place hydras/infestation immediately in front of them, with a delay for the uh, disgorging animation. This means that you can't move and place structures where you actually want them at the same time. If this is desired, just stop all movement while placing; if it's undesired, either place instantly or lob an "egg" projectile a very short distance that grows into the hydra/infestation.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
excellent questions, i agree everywhere except midair leap.
For gorge infestation though, my interpretation was that they aren't meant to expand the main infestation, they're meant to place patches in remote places to allow the commander to drop things there.
The precise nature of the advantage doesn't really matter, and the mechanism you use to gain it does not change with the different structures, so there isn't any reason to have different structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're oversimplifying things. By tying certain unique advantages to certain unique structures, and prioritising the destruction of one in particular, you deny a certain advantage. Why does this matter? Those few seconds or minutes that they don't have a certain advantage will allow you to take out other key base positions. This way, the game isn't merely: Push, push, push. It becomes: in this particular assault, what exactly should I and my team prioritise? Even if I die, if I take this out, they'll have lost this particular advantage which is most valuable to them, so we'll have the upper hand. Then we can push.
It's akin to a game of <b>rock, paper, scissors</b> where you have the power to <b>cut off your opponent's hand</b>.
Agree with lvl2/3 tech being available once the tech nodes are capture and powered/DI. Also, I would add that if you lose the expansion(s), then you can't access those lvl2/3 tech anymore.
I think the biggest problem on tram right now is that the res nodes are too far away from the tech nodes so that it takes a really long time for aliens to DI all the way to their 2nd harvester. Also, if you're going to move the natural expansion further away, then you should at least give them each a res node.
<a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/hydra_and_gorge_dynamic_infestation_drop_at_end_of_animation_rather_than_beginning" target="_blank">http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t..._than_beginning</a>
Seems like this is on the UWE to-do list to fix.
Thought I'd quote myself here:
<!--QuoteBegin-'a brilliant man'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('a brilliant man')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're doing it wrong. Immediately throw up central-hive, then spend the energy of the main-hive and central-hive to get up to the RT overlooking central-hive (or whatever its called). You now have 2 RTs within 1 minute. Server-room can be gotten after that within about a minute as well (from the staircase), which puts you very early in the game at a respectable 3 RTs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While DI needs work, don't be so quick to dismiss it as too difficult.
While DI needs work, don't be so quick to dismiss it as too difficult.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's pretty much what I do, but it seems silly that you can get the further away res node before the one closer to alien start.
2. Never heard of that, and it would create problems with ppl draining the teams resources, as last time I checked, umbra takes 20 TRes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
RMB/use sounds good too. Some way to get rid of it instantly anyway.
Umbra uses structure energy, so that shouldn't be a problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1833913:date=Feb 20 2011, 04:49 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Feb 20 2011, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see the value in the choice though. You're still killing stuff to get an advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you can only kill so many things before you get killed, so now you have to decide. It's more interesting if you have to make an important choice depending on the situation rather than always go the same route. Gameplay that's meant to endure and keep your interest is all about having equal options.
<!--quoteo(post=1833914:date=Feb 20 2011, 04:51 PM:name=Zuriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zuriki @ Feb 20 2011, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ol type='1'><li>Running leap enables this effect if I remember correctly. Mini-leap should be removed though as it is useless and an energy drain.</li><li>Dynamic Infestation needs a lot of work, I'm sure the mechanics of it will be changed sufficiently in future builds.</li><li>I think this is a bug, the network lag means that it gets placed incorrectly. I think a growth bombs would be pretty funny, though also kind annoying to place.</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Almost certain Running leap only works on the ground, though I haven't tried it recently.
Right, but this was something they must have actively decided on - I mean like, it would have been just as much work to do it as to not do it.
It happens if you create your own game too, so it's definitely a delay in the "weapon" itself... growth bombs would take some getting used to, but should also help with building on walls, since right now you're not likely to get things more than a few feet of the ground.
I can't really answer this one, more of a question for Charlie, but I imagine it adds more depth and choices for the commander.
[*]Skulks can't leap mid-air. Now that mini-leap isn't usable while moving, this restriction should be removed, for the sake of fun tier 2 gameplay.
Mini-leap was a quick implementation to deal with the full leap being too powerful to have at the start of the game, but still wanting the aliens to have a way to get over parts of geometry that are not easy to climb over and to quickly get up to a hiding spot if a marine is coming. The way its is something we are not happy with at the moment, and is going to be revisited in the future when more of the higher priority tasks are sorted out. As far as leaping in mid air that seems a bit strange to be able to do. But remember, this stuff is all a first pass. The plans for the skulk involve a lot more complexity of movement, running more easily on walls without falling off/getting stuck (something which is being worked on at the moment) and leaping from wall to wall, etc. Most likely more air control will be added as well.
[*]Fade second attack can't hit moving targets and deals less DPS. What situation was it meant for?
Again, this is just a first pass and we realize its not working as well as we'd hoped. But it was designed for stealth assassination. To be able to blink in behind a marine and catch them off guard and take them out with an attack that takes longer to do but does a lot more damage. I believe it was also meant to use to disable buildings more quickly, as well, but at the moment I don't think the damage is set properly for that, compared to the length of time it takes to do the attack. In general the Fade is meant to be more of a stealth unit, and there are some abilities which are planned to be added that will hopefully bring him back more in line with that. The bigger core gameplay mechanics are the focus at the moment, however, and we'd rather spend time on working on getting the Onos into the game, then adding and adjusting abilities for the other aliens at the moment
[*]Gorge infestation fades even if connected to overmind infestation. It takes ages to make a "bridge" using those small patches, isn't that enough of a disadvantage? Make them cost 1 plasma each if you have to, being able to assist the overmind directly would be so much fun.
Infestation is still a WIP in progress, and these are the sorts of reasons we wanted to get it into the game in an early stage, so that gameplay issues like this can be played with and adjusted and experimented with. The Gorge infestation fading even when connected to the main DI is probably due to an attempt to keep the rate of DI growth down. If you have a team of 16 aliens and half of them decide to go gorge, they could potentially cover the entire map with DI in a very short amount of time. But, again, pretty much all aspects of infestation, how fast it fades, if it fades, the cost to grow it, how much it grows on its own, if Harvesters require it, etc., will be further tweaked during this beta phase.
[*]How come we don't get more information on our HUDs, such as upgrade levels? Even essential things like team and personal resource counts are missing... I don't mind the healthbar hiding for aliens when outside of combat though.
There is definitely some information missing from the HUDs right now, and personal resource count is a big one that is definitely meant to be there.
[*]After purchasing a weapon at the armoury, shouldn't the menu close immediately? Even once we have exo/jp we'll be buying single items the vast majority of the time (tier 1&2).
It was always intended that there would be more upgrade options for the weapons, just most of those have not been added to the game yet. So, we want the player to be able to not just buy the weapons, but also choose upgrades for them as well. So, it shouldn't close immediately after purchasing a weapon.
[*]Weren't alien players supposed to be able to use the "trigger" abilities of structures, like Crag Umbra? That sounded like a neat idea, expanding from the old NS1 functionality, but it's nowhere to be seen.
I am not sure where you are getting that from. The "trigger" abilities for structures have always been intended for the alien commander to trigger. Some of them may have an effect on surrounding alien players, but the structures have always been intended for the commander to make use of, not the players, as far as I know.
[*]Why was the Arms Lab cut in favour of placing every important marine upgrade on the Armoury? It's already a critical structure, what with buying weapons with personal resources.
We did want to consolidate the amount of different structures, and didn't think it was necessary to have a separate building just for upgrades. However we have been discussion adding a separate prototype lab building back in and moving the jetpack and exosuit out of the armory and over to that. A final decision hasn't been made on that yet, and even if it goes that way it may be some time before all the art and gameplay has been done to support that
[*]Gorges place hydras/infestation immediately in front of them, with a delay for the uh, disgorging animation. This means that you can't move and place structures where you actually want them at the same time. If this is desired, just stop all movement while placing; if it's undesired, either place instantly or lob an "egg" projectile a very short distance that grows into the hydra/infestation.
Again, this was a relatively fast implementation to get DI working for the gorge so there's bound to be issues like this. The way the DI spreading went in, it was tied to the length of the animation, but we would like the DI spreading to be more fluid and natural, and the delay is not intended for gameplay purposes. The animation will most likely be adjusted or some other fix will be done.
--Cory
I think for the crag it was the abillity to spawn babblers ?yeah?
Again, this is just a first pass and we realize its not working as well as we'd hoped. But it was designed for stealth assassination. To be able to blink in behind a marine and catch them off guard and take them out with an attack that takes longer to do but does a lot more damage. I believe it was also meant to use to disable buildings more quickly, as well, but at the moment I don't think the damage is set properly for that, compared to the length of time it takes to do the attack. In general the Fade is meant to be more of a stealth unit, and there are some abilities which are planned to be added that will hopefully bring him back more in line with that. The bigger core gameplay mechanics are the focus at the moment, however, and we'd rather spend time on working on getting the Onos into the game, then adding and adjusting abilities for the other aliens at the moment<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think a way to make the "Blinking then hitting" into the game is by allowing fades to start their hit before they blink.
Basically,
Start hit,
Blink,
Finish hit,
Like that basically.
Basically,
Start hit,
Blink,
Finish hit,
Like that basically.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i find your suggestion very smart!
Basically,
Start hit,
Blink,
Finish hit,
Like that basically.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they that you could time it to be an instantaneous hit with no way for marines to react.
Oh so you mean like marines' weapons?
+1
The fade being allowed to do what I said is a great equivalent to the shotgun killing skulks.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Shade" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Shade</a>
DISCLAIMER: REALLY? THE SHADE ISN'T IN THE GAME YET? DISCUSSING THINGS THAT AREN'T IN THE GAME, LOLUSTUPID
triggered is cloak. that's interesting. it should be passive..
we'll see how good the invisibility is, i'd switch disorient and cloak and make cloak passive and disorient be the triggered. sensory chambers were only strong cuz you didn't know they were there. as a commander, if i see a shade i'm gonna be like "lol shade, hey team, go kill that expensive structure, let me know when you get there and i'll scanner sweep for you"
but nonetheless, invisible shade with an insta-kill secondary attack will be very hard to beat regardless of your gun.
i'm just disappointed in,
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In general the Fade is meant to be more of a stealth unit, and there are some abilities which are planned to be added that will hopefully bring him back more in line with that. The bigger core gameplay mechanics are the focus at the moment, however, and we'd rather spend time on working on getting the Onos into the game, then adding and adjusting abilities for the other aliens at the moment<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really can't understand this, are you happy with the current blink? while the addition of the onos sounds great, I hate to skip the huge problem with fade's blink. They are extremely slow, cannot catch moving targets and double clicking to blink while constantly having to select an area to blink to while blinking. Lets not forget poor aiming system, and blinding effect each blink you take! While the secondary attack might be lacking, one of the abilities that defines this alien is broken. Fade needs some sort of secondary warp abilities like the long jump it had in ns1, keep primary blink for stealth but add secondary long jump it had before, seriously needed.
~10min? into the game every alien player got the res and the 2nd hive upgrade to gestate.
The more mobility(hit and run tactics/dodge death) you give, the weaker(health) the creature must be.
Imagine ns1 fades in ns2... it'd be gameover for marines the moment the 2nd hive upgrade is up. (more or less)
as for how tech points going, its all wrong, and easy mode. the game has been be dumbed-down in so many ways. You said something important, both teams are forced to tech the same way, that is another problem, two teams are more alike than they were before, this is bad, really bad.
for example all marines have to do is rush second cc, get the upgrade and recycle and hold some rts. they do not require to hold any positions on the map, upgrades aren't tied to buildings. I can keep going with more but I do not want to get side tracked from my point.
fade's are slow, and have really broken blink system. Clicking has to be reduced, able to catch moving targets and blink should not have any blinding effect. I will repeat again, all blink offers is special effects now! marines seem overpowered because they are now with current weapons but why aliens seem much weaker is because the fades in such bad shape they do not bring anything worthy into the battlefield, nothing at all. All you can do now is chase marines on foot, its pitiful.
I find myself use that often.
- Blinking behind a marine and while he is wondering where I went stab him.
- Marine getting plastered with healthpacks.. just stab him and all the medpacks won't save his ass.
- Shotgunner tries to kill you but has to stand close.. that is the chance to stab him. He is only able to shoot 2 shots until he is dead. (I blink myself right in front of him so he does not ge the idea in stepping backwards)
just my 2 cents
PS: thank you Cory for your answers!
I can't wait for the final release
I think not. Come on, Jesus Fade sucked. It looked ######, it was practically immortal, it was basically OP.
And tbh, I like the blink. I don't have any problems with it at all.
The only thing I think they should implement is being abled to:
Start secondary hit.
Blink.
Finish hit.
That way it will be more stealth like and also, it would make the secondary attack be used more.