<!--quoteo(post=1833978:date=Feb 20 2011, 09:30 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Feb 20 2011, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[*]Fade second attack can't hit moving targets and deals less DPS. What situation was it meant for?
Again, this is just a first pass and we realize its not working as well as we'd hoped. But it was designed for stealth assassination. To be able to blink in behind a marine and catch them off guard and take them out with an attack that takes longer to do but does a lot more damage. I believe it was also meant to use to disable buildings more quickly, as well, but at the moment I don't think the damage is set properly for that, compared to the length of time it takes to do the attack. In general the Fade is meant to be more of a stealth unit, and there are some abilities which are planned to be added that will hopefully bring him back more in line with that. The bigger core gameplay mechanics are the focus at the moment, however, and we'd rather spend time on working on getting the Onos into the game, then adding and adjusting abilities for the other aliens at the moment
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said "I believe it was also meant to use to disable buildings more quickly, as well, but at the moment I don't think the damage is set properly for that, compared to the length of time it takes to do the attack"
There are a few ways to fix this:
-Make it do more damage as it is already a 1 hit kill against marines. -Make it like the switch axe (Double damage against buildings). -Shorten the time it takes to actually use.
These are just ideas, no trolling is meant to be implemented.
<!--quoteo(post=1834184:date=Feb 22 2011, 12:54 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Feb 22 2011, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Introduce Jesus Fade into NS2?
I think not. Come on, Jesus Fade sucked. It looked ######, it was practically immortal, it was basically OP. And tbh, I like the blink. I don't have any problems with it at all.
The only thing I think they should implement is being abled to:
Start secondary hit. Blink. Finish hit.
That way it will be more stealth like and also, it would make the secondary attack be used more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
much of the game is missing right now, especially for marines.
ARC, HMG (duel guns?), heavy armor, and jetpacks - i'm sure I might of forgot something else
if a fade cannot catch moving targets, and be fast, do you have any idea what will happen to him in endgame fights? if you can enjoy blink now, great for you but I'm thinking ahead. it seems cory trying to bring onos into the battlefield to overshadow the current bad fade they made. I really do not what to play a game where everyone has to be an onos, a fade was a special class in ns1 but right now he's walking target. We need to make the blink better now, without adding alien tier 3 to help fight tier 2 of the marines.
I'm guessing more people will realize this once marines get more tech. I just cannot accept how we go from having great class which took awhile to master to being reduced to turtle with claws.
Maybe there will be a tier3 upgrade for blink?(So you can also deal with jps etc) There is very limited info about tier 3 kharaa upgrades(tier 2 is pretty empty too) and abilitys... it wont be only onos and weapon + armor 3.
Overall there is much more missing or not revealed on alien side than on marine... Just chill wait and see.
<!--quoteo(post=1834184:date=Feb 21 2011, 05:54 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Feb 21 2011, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Introduce Jesus Fade into NS2?
I think not. Come on, Jesus Fade sucked. It looked ######, it was practically immortal, it was basically OP. And tbh, I like the blink. I don't have any problems with it at all.
The only thing I think they should implement is being abled to:
Start secondary hit. Blink. Finish hit.
That way it will be more stealth like and also, it would make the secondary attack be used more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you played too much combat, a fade in ns1 wasnt that powerful unless your team fed a good skulk/fade player who went fade early. and even then marines could EASILY counter with shotguns. i cannot stand the way you ppl go on and on about how fades were uber powerful when its obvious some of you never played much to begin with. a good fade against shotguns is anything but powerful. if youre saying the fade was super powerful because you ran off with an lmg and got owned then thats just your own stupidity.
" it was practically immortal" - nope, especially after marines got jackpacks, if you werent a good fade then a jp hmg could kill you incredibly easily. midgame a fade against shotguns basically hits and runs, same thing a fade should be doing now if it werent gimped to uselessness. early game, you needed 50 freakin res to get a fade. which meant you had to attack and get kills to get the res in the first place which meant you were either better than the marines you were playing against or just got incredibly lucky.
"it was basically OP" - not at all, a fade against a team of marines in ns1 doesnt stand a chance. a fade can pick off small squads of 2-3 MAYBE. Anymore than that and the fade better have almost 3 hives and be facing sub par marines.
And I dont agree with being blinded by your own ability. That would be like blinding the marine with a super huge muzzle flare or flame.
<!--quoteo(post=1834201:date=Feb 21 2011, 06:27 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Feb 21 2011, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834201"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I dont agree with being blinded by your own ability. That would be like blinding the marine with a super huge muzzle flare or flame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> *cough* alienvision *cough* -
...I agree with your statement. but the problem is that the aliens only have stealth and lurking units while the marines have highly offensive weapons. And some of theese weapons can't be countered that easy by stealth units... (In NS1 there were not so many marines with shotgun so I guess the fade encountered more LMG marines..)
Aliens need a agressive unit which is able to jump into direct combat. (like the onos.. or an existing unit with some battle upgrades ie. Fade with fireproof carapace, or carapace which increases its armor etc.) But it's not implemented yet and until then the complains will continue.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Just want to address two of the points.
I find the secondary attack of the fade quite useful. While it is slower, the range is also quite a bit larger, so I can more easily hit a warping jumping marine. I use it all the time. It's hard to miss with that attack.
As for the triggered abilities...they're already there. Crag umbra and whip fury. Commanders rarely use them, however. The whip fury ability is kind of worthless. The ROF increase is hardly noticeable, and it's only 10% more damage...not really worth it for an ability that only has a range of a few feet.
<!--quoteo(post=1833978:date=Feb 21 2011, 08:30 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Feb 21 2011, 08:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as leaping in mid air that seems a bit strange to be able to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Leap jump was an integral part of NS1 alien movement, whilst it might seem strange it feels right which is the most important thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1834208:date=Feb 21 2011, 08:02 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Feb 21 2011, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just want to address two of the points.
I find the secondary attack of the fade quite useful. While it is slower, the range is also quite a bit larger, so I can more easily hit a warping jumping marine. I use it all the time. It's hard to miss with that attack.
As for the triggered abilities...they're already there. Crag umbra and whip fury. Commanders rarely use them, however. The whip fury ability is kind of worthless. The ROF increase is hardly noticeable, and it's only 10% more damage...not really worth it for an ability that only has a range of a few feet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you only think the 2nd attack has a longer range is because its like you said, they are warping, their hitbox is trailing behind
...I agree with your statement. but the problem is that the aliens only have stealth and lurking units while the marines have highly offensive weapons. And some of theese weapons can't be countered that easy by stealth units... (In NS1 there were not so many marines with shotgun so I guess the fade encountered more LMG marines..)
Aliens need a agressive unit which is able to jump into direct combat. (like the onos.. or an existing unit with some battle upgrades ie. Fade with fireproof carapace, or carapace which increases its armor etc.) But it's not implemented yet and until then the complains will continue.
We will see what the future holds...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns2 has been dumbed-down in many ways, anything from tech points, classes and commanding.
1.marines and commander too much separated apart, marines do not need the commander for weapons since they can always buy it from armory. commander doesn't always need marines since he has macs. Commander and marines work independently, this isn't good. (more can be added, these are just two examples) 2.how the tech points currently work, takes no real work and upgrades aren't tied to buildings. Both teams actually more alike with only slight differences, not good at all 3.alien abilities have been nerfed/gimped from what they were in ns1. Good example is look what they have done to fade's blink. You right when you say we need a class that can jump into the battlefield, and fade was one of those classes that done this. But it looks like ns2 going to be more about how many onos aliens can have to win. (seriously bad)
when marine going to tech up, people will start to realize how crappy alien abilities further more, especially the fade class, because of its slow blink. Much of the game in ns2 has been made so user-friendly, its no longer a challenge but rather "once we got this, we won."
as cory said he wants the fade to be more about stealth, alright fine but can't you see the clear problems with current blink? class has been reduced to chasing marines on foot, seriously its sad.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1834214:date=Feb 21 2011, 08:39 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Feb 21 2011, 08:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you only think the 2nd attack has a longer range is because its like you said, they are warping, their hitbox is trailing behind<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not true. I've tested it in a controlled setting and the secondary attack of the fade is indeed quite a bit longer range. Try it yourself. Go up to an extractor and back up. There is a point where you will do damage with secondary mode but not primary.
I really think that they should <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Change the Shotgun</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> it is very easy to kill a skulk with it as the spread is too small. Other people have said that the Spread of the shotgun needs to have a larger range so it is harder to kill a skulk.
Also, the shotgun can <b>Easily</b> take down a harvester and other structures as its damage is so high.
IMHO the shotgun needs a nerf as you can easily 1 hit skulks and 1 hit lerks.
It is so easy to get as well.
Another thing is that I don't like the buying weapons system for the marines. Why did they implement that into the game? There is no reward system anymore (Like. Commander: Well done marine, you can have the first shotgun!) or anything like that.
I prefered the old weapon hand out than this one. The commander needs more control over which marines has what weapon.
I also have a problem with the flamethrower but I think this is a good way to fix it:
<!--quoteo(post=1833641:date=Feb 19 2011, 03:17 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 19 2011, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The flamethrower just <b>needs a range reduction</b>, for now. It is needed ingame to destroy DI, as well as repelling Lerks and Fades. Frankly, the flamethrower's damage is so low now (48 DPS), by itself, even killing a Skulk takes at least 2 seconds. Although I would like to see a cap on the <b>duration of the burn</b>, as well as a <b>reduction of the size of the flame cone</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I think the "The flamethrower's damage is so low now (48 DPS), by itself, even killing a Skulk takes at least 2 seconds."
AT LEAST 2 SECONDS???? Why at least? 2 seconds to kill a player is absolutely ridiculous...
<!--quoteo(post=1833895:date=Feb 20 2011, 01:33 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Feb 20 2011, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[*]Weren't alien players supposed to be able to use the "trigger" abilities of structures, like Crag Umbra? That sounded like a neat idea, expanding from the old NS1 functionality, but it's nowhere to be seen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think more "Trigger" abilities will be introduced. Like the Shade? using a Hallucination triggered ability and other things. You should see them more as the game progresses.
But I have to agree with you. The Crag umbra is not used that much as it takes such a long time to trigger. You have to select it and then click. This is too long becuase the Alien you might be trying to protect could be dead. One way of making this be used more is by increasing the time is stays.
This way, if you are the commander and you base if being attacked you can activate it and then hop of the commander position and (Attempt to) kill them.
[*]After taking a tech point we also have to upgrade a station/hive. Isn't it enough to just require X tech points to be captured?
- I wanted the ability for teams to choose a multiple-commander strategy, so this way you can choose to build stations/hives without upgrading them as a separate path from teching up.
[*]Why does Tram have those natural expansions so close to the start points? Shouldn't there be difficulty and risk involved in teching up?
- Quite possibly. It's tricky because we want to keep the maps small and simple (less effort for us, less effort for players to learn), but yes, it should be far enough away that it isn't so easily defended. Tram was our first real map and they may indeed be too close, time will tell.
[*]Skulks can't leap mid-air. Now that mini-leap isn't usable while moving, this restriction should be removed, for the sake of fun tier 2 gameplay.
- Leaping in mid-air was a bug in NS1. Leap's main purpose is to make skulks more effective against Tier 2 marines, so youhave a good point. It does break the immersion for me though, so it has to be balanced with that.
[*]Fade second attack can't hit moving targets and deals less DPS. What situation was it meant for?
- Originally this was an anti-structure attack, so it worked against stationary targets. Now it's supposed to allow a player with great timing to be even deadlier, but perhaps it's not working that way yet.
[*]Gorge infestation fades even if connected to hive (ed.) infestation. It takes ages to make a "bridge" using those small patches, isn't that enough of a disadvantage? Make them cost 1 plasma each if you have to, being able to assist the hive (ed.) directly would be so much fun.
- I've shied away from having any resources being spent from use of a first-person ability. It's too weird to be spending resources without realizing it. Maybe it should be faster/easier for him to build "bridges" though.
[*]How come we don't get more information on our HUDs, such as upgrade levels? Even essential things like team and personal resource counts are missing... I don't mind the healthbar hiding for aliens when outside of combat though.
- Oh you will! Just like NS1, you'l'l see all the current upgrades. We just haven't gotten to it yet.
[*]After purchasing a weapon at the armoury, shouldn't the menu close immediately? Even once we have exo/jp we'll be buying single items the vast majority of the time (tier 1&2).
- Good point. Originally we wanted the ability to buy upgrades at this screen as well, but that got cut. Maybe this would be better.
[*]Weren't alien players supposed to be able to use the "trigger" abilities of structures, like Crag Umbra? That sounded like a neat idea, expanding from the old NS1 functionality, but it's nowhere to be seen.
- Oh nope - the alien _commander_ can use the trigger abilities.
[*]Why was the Arms Lab cut in favour of placing every important marine upgrade on the Armoury? It's already a critical structure, what with buying weapons with personal resources.
- We were trying to conserve the amount of artwork we needed, which is what gave us the prototype attachment on the armory. It is a lot for one structure, but we have limited resources so aren't thinking of adding another structure for this yet. We are bringing back the Prototype Lab though, largely for this reason (get rid of all those ADDITIONAL tier 3 upgrades off the armory).
[*]Gorges place hydras/infestation immediately in front of them, with a delay for the uh, disgorging animation. This means that you can't move and place structures where you actually want them at the same time. If this is desired, just stop all movement while placing; if it's undesired, either place instantly or lob an "egg" projectile a very short distance that grows into the hydra/infestation.
- Heh. It feels pretty unresponsive to stop moving completely, but the idea here was to slow you down a whole lot while you were - disgorging. I believe this stopped working recently so it will be restored this way again shortly. I like your egg projectile idea though. At one point we were building that egg you see in the concept art, but not sure what the status of it is!
[/list] edit: added numerical listing for ease of reference [/quote]
<b>Oops I didn't see Cory already answered this, hope we jive!</b>
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
Flayra, about the mid-air leap... It was totally goofy but the mechanic for slightly more movement control was an interesting feature that made skulks more unique and powerful, especially for large map navigation. A leap in air didn't make sense, but a mid-air reflex of sorts for adjusting course correction would be an interesting way to keep the unique movement feel alive in ns2. It wouldn't be a mid-air leap, I agree that doesn't make sense, but I could see an in-air modifier giving the skulk a little more control.
Look at this cat: <img src="http://goofygifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/funny-gifs-cat-pops-water-balloon.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /> If this cat can do what its doing, perhaps a skulk can slightly change its leap direction after leaping.
<!--quoteo(post=1834393:date=Feb 22 2011, 01:31 PM:name=Mr. Epic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Epic @ Feb 22 2011, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834393"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If this cat can do what its doing, perhaps a skulk can slightly change its leap direction after leaping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it's a matter of aircontrol, i.e. being able to change direction midair. The problem is jumping up, then firing Leap to suddenly rocket yourself away when you were... um... in the air and no surface to jump off of.
<!--quoteo(post=1834387:date=Feb 22 2011, 04:15 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Feb 22 2011, 04:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[*]After taking a tech point we also have to upgrade a station/hive. Isn't it enough to just require X tech points to be captured?
- I wanted the ability for teams to choose a multiple-commander strategy, so this way you can choose to build stations/hives without upgrading them as a separate path from teching up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Having a second CC requires securing another tech point though. It's inconceivable that marines would do that without also choosing to take the tier 2 upgrade. Also, there isn't currently any way for marines to opt against supporting multiple commanders, which might be abusable.
Just wanted to point out that marines also get healed while interacting with the armory, so you may not always want to close it right away (unless they just end up making the armory heal as a short-range AOE)
So you'll have the option to either upgrade a single chair/hive or build at another tech point, for the same effect? (increasing tech level)
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
edited February 2011
Obviously the cat isn't violating any laws of physics, unlike the ns1 air leap, but a slight bit of air control post-leap could maintain some of the maneuverability. I'm not suggesting the ability to leap a second time in air to circumvent a skulk falling, but perhaps a short window to allow the skulk to adjust its course in air. Use the leap key after you leap to allow for that curveball like movement that ns1 allowed. Maybe that explains it better?
I really don't think you should sacrifice gameplay for realism after all NS isn't a sim game it's an action game.
No air leap is a major issue, it actually makes me not want to play NS2 out of pure frustration.
Just remember the player movement/feel is one of the most sacred things in a fps if you don't capture what people loved about NS1 then NS2 will not be as successful :/
<!--quoteo(post=1834414:date=Feb 22 2011, 11:30 PM:name=monopolowa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (monopolowa @ Feb 22 2011, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834414"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wanted to point out that marines also get healed while interacting with the armory, so you may not always want to close it right away<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't need to open the buy menu to get healed though by the armoury, just look towards it at close range.
<!--quoteo(post=1834419:date=Feb 22 2011, 05:42 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Feb 22 2011, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In regards to air leap;
I really don't think you should sacrifice gameplay for realism after all NS isn't a sim game it's an action game.
No air leap is a major issue, it actually makes me not want to play NS2 out of pure frustration.
Just remember the player movement/feel is one of the most sacred things in a fps if you don't capture what people loved about NS1 then NS2 will not be as successful :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much agree on all points here. People play for fun, not a simulation, especially with this game. Some notes:
-Bhopping is now removed (which although very fun for the user I didn't care too much about but having fully understood/mastered it made aircontrol a breeze in situations other than bhopping).
-Airleap is also removed.
-Skulks walk slower? (could be wrong)
-Tier 2 leap is now an upgrade that needs to be actively acquired (vs passively in ns1).
-Skulk's new tier 1 leap was reduced to mini-leap (and even talk of removing it entirely now?!). A good idea in theory and lets players feel like they are taring around the map even if they can't truly take advantage of the leap ability. Although I like the idea, I feel it should go just a LITTLE farther while moving and would feel 'correct'.
So basically in NS2, other than the fact skulks now have a near useless 'mini-leap', skulk movement in general has been crippled as a whole. I feel as if almost all of these nerfs have come from marines having trouble killing the skulks which has nothing to do with balance at all; it's almost strictly because trying to aim a gun while actively getting hitches is often just too hard to pull off without some element of luck.
<!--quoteo(post=1834387:date=Feb 22 2011, 10:15 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Feb 22 2011, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->we want to keep the maps small and simple<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://nooooooooooooooo.com/" target="_blank">NNNOOOOoooooo</a> <!--quoteo(post=1834387:date=Feb 22 2011, 10:15 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Feb 22 2011, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- We were trying to conserve the amount of artwork we needed [...] but we have limited resources so aren't thinking of adding another structure for this yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not that i care much about this because i'm not a RTS player at all buuut: you shouldn't cut a good gameplay/strategy idea because of artwork "intricacies". As far as i remember the hand grenade in ns1 came in as a custom model first and was then added into the game. Also the icon contest showed that this community has some talented and able people who could maybe support UW with some contributions if you would ask them. <!--quoteo(post=1834387:date=Feb 22 2011, 10:15 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Feb 22 2011, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- I've shied away from having any resources being spent from use of a first-person ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why should he spend res at all? The commander is spending only energy afaik so should the gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1834428:date=Feb 22 2011, 11:43 PM:name=Zeno)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeno @ Feb 22 2011, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->we want to keep the maps small and simple nooooooooooooooo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't worry, Tram is still, so far, the smallest and simplest of the official maps. The others are much larger and more complex. All together there should be a pretty good range of map sizes to be able to see which work the best for NS2 gameplay. <!--quoteo(post=1834428:date=Feb 22 2011, 11:43 PM:name=Zeno)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeno @ Feb 22 2011, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not that i care much about this because i'm not a RTS player at all buuut: you shouldn't cut a good gameplay/strategy idea because of artwork "intricacies". As far as i remember the hand grenade in ns1 came in as a custom model first and was then added into the game. Also the icon contest showed that this community has some talented and able people who could maybe support UW with some contributions if you would ask them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lack of available resources, whether from programming, or from art, is always a valid reason for cutting good gameplay/strategy ideas, especially when you have such a small development team as we do. New marine structures involve quite a bit of my concept design time, to design the look, figure out how to make it fold up into a more compact state like the rest of the buildings so that it can have a deploy animation, etc. Then it has to be sent to the modeler/texture artists, and that costs money and time. Then for it to get rigged and animated and programmed is another substantial chunk of time. So, yes, in the early days of creating the schedule for the entire project, when there was just 4 of us sitting in the office, cutting down on the number of buildings and weapons was extremely important, even if it meant limiting the gameplay/strategy. We've always tried to retain the essential core elements that we've felt were necessary to preserve the NS spirit and to make NS2 as full featured and compelling as possible, so we try to cut things which aren't as crucial.
As far as the community involvement goes, creating minimap icons is just not the same as designing/modeling/animating a marine structure that fits the level of quality that we are looking for. I'm not saying there aren't people out there in our community up to the challenge, but for us to find the right person, and spend a lot of our time bringing them up to speed, is just to much of a risk. --Cory
<!--quoteo(post=1834414:date=Feb 22 2011, 10:30 PM:name=monopolowa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (monopolowa @ Feb 22 2011, 10:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834414"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wanted to point out that marines also get healed while interacting with the armory, so you may not always want to close it right away (unless they just end up making the armory heal as a short-range AOE)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it already has an AOE of healing. I stood by it when I had low HP and I got healed. I didn't press E on it as I didn't need to buy anything.
I know you have very high standards Cory, and your art is superb, but from the players point of view there's only so much time spent on beholding the structures in game. After the hundredth time looking at a marine building you wonder if a second rate model wouldn't have done the job too, especially if it enhances game play.
Comments
Again, this is just a first pass and we realize its not working as well as we'd hoped. But it was designed for stealth assassination. To be able to blink in behind a marine and catch them off guard and take them out with an attack that takes longer to do but does a lot more damage. I believe it was also meant to use to disable buildings more quickly, as well, but at the moment I don't think the damage is set properly for that, compared to the length of time it takes to do the attack. In general the Fade is meant to be more of a stealth unit, and there are some abilities which are planned to be added that will hopefully bring him back more in line with that. The bigger core gameplay mechanics are the focus at the moment, however, and we'd rather spend time on working on getting the Onos into the game, then adding and adjusting abilities for the other aliens at the moment
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said "I believe it was also meant to use to disable buildings more quickly, as well, but at the moment I don't think the damage is set properly for that, compared to the length of time it takes to do the attack"
There are a few ways to fix this:
-Make it do more damage as it is already a 1 hit kill against marines.
-Make it like the switch axe (Double damage against buildings).
-Shorten the time it takes to actually use.
These are just ideas, no trolling is meant to be implemented.
I think not. Come on, Jesus Fade sucked. It looked ######, it was practically immortal, it was basically OP.
And tbh, I like the blink. I don't have any problems with it at all.
The only thing I think they should implement is being abled to:
Start secondary hit.
Blink.
Finish hit.
That way it will be more stealth like and also, it would make the secondary attack be used more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
much of the game is missing right now, especially for marines.
ARC, HMG (duel guns?), heavy armor, and jetpacks - i'm sure I might of forgot something else
if a fade cannot catch moving targets, and be fast, do you have any idea what will happen to him in endgame fights? if you can enjoy blink now, great for you but I'm thinking ahead. it seems cory trying to bring onos into the battlefield to overshadow the current bad fade they made. I really do not what to play a game where everyone has to be an onos, a fade was a special class in ns1 but right now he's walking target. We need to make the blink better now, without adding alien tier 3 to help fight tier 2 of the marines.
I'm guessing more people will realize this once marines get more tech. I just cannot accept how we go from having great class which took awhile to master to being reduced to turtle with claws.
Overall there is much more missing or not revealed on alien side than on marine... Just chill wait and see.
I think not. Come on, Jesus Fade sucked. It looked ######, it was practically immortal, it was basically OP.
And tbh, I like the blink. I don't have any problems with it at all.
The only thing I think they should implement is being abled to:
Start secondary hit.
Blink.
Finish hit.
That way it will be more stealth like and also, it would make the secondary attack be used more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you played too much combat, a fade in ns1 wasnt that powerful unless your team fed a good skulk/fade player who went fade early. and even then marines could EASILY counter with shotguns. i cannot stand the way you ppl go on and on about how fades were uber powerful when its obvious some of you never played much to begin with. a good fade against shotguns is anything but powerful. if youre saying the fade was super powerful because you ran off with an lmg and got owned then thats just your own stupidity.
" it was practically immortal" - nope, especially after marines got jackpacks, if you werent a good fade then a jp hmg could kill you incredibly easily. midgame a fade against shotguns basically hits and runs, same thing a fade should be doing now if it werent gimped to uselessness. early game, you needed 50 freakin res to get a fade. which meant you had to attack and get kills to get the res in the first place which meant you were either better than the marines you were playing against or just got incredibly lucky.
"it was basically OP" - not at all, a fade against a team of marines in ns1 doesnt stand a chance. a fade can pick off small squads of 2-3 MAYBE. Anymore than that and the fade better have almost 3 hives and be facing sub par marines.
And I dont agree with being blinded by your own ability. That would be like blinding the marine with a super huge muzzle flare or flame.
*cough* alienvision *cough*
-
...I agree with your statement.
but the problem is that the aliens only have stealth and lurking units while the marines have highly offensive weapons.
And some of theese weapons can't be countered that easy by stealth units...
(In NS1 there were not so many marines with shotgun so I guess the fade encountered more LMG marines..)
Aliens need a agressive unit which is able to jump into direct combat. (like the onos.. or an existing unit with some battle upgrades ie. Fade with fireproof carapace, or carapace which increases its armor etc.)
But it's not implemented yet and until then the complains will continue.
We will see what the future holds...
I find the secondary attack of the fade quite useful. While it is slower, the range is also quite a bit larger, so I can more easily hit a warping jumping marine. I use it all the time. It's hard to miss with that attack.
As for the triggered abilities...they're already there. Crag umbra and whip fury. Commanders rarely use them, however. The whip fury ability is kind of worthless. The ROF increase is hardly noticeable, and it's only 10% more damage...not really worth it for an ability that only has a range of a few feet.
Leap jump was an integral part of NS1 alien movement, whilst it might seem strange it feels right which is the most important thing.
I find the secondary attack of the fade quite useful. While it is slower, the range is also quite a bit larger, so I can more easily hit a warping jumping marine. I use it all the time. It's hard to miss with that attack.
As for the triggered abilities...they're already there. Crag umbra and whip fury. Commanders rarely use them, however. The whip fury ability is kind of worthless. The ROF increase is hardly noticeable, and it's only 10% more damage...not really worth it for an ability that only has a range of a few feet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you only think the 2nd attack has a longer range is because its like you said, they are warping, their hitbox is trailing behind
-
...I agree with your statement.
but the problem is that the aliens only have stealth and lurking units while the marines have highly offensive weapons.
And some of theese weapons can't be countered that easy by stealth units...
(In NS1 there were not so many marines with shotgun so I guess the fade encountered more LMG marines..)
Aliens need a agressive unit which is able to jump into direct combat. (like the onos.. or an existing unit with some battle upgrades ie. Fade with fireproof carapace, or carapace which increases its armor etc.)
But it's not implemented yet and until then the complains will continue.
We will see what the future holds...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns2 has been dumbed-down in many ways, anything from tech points, classes and commanding.
1.marines and commander too much separated apart, marines do not need the commander for weapons since they can always buy it from armory. commander doesn't always need marines since he has macs. Commander and marines work independently, this isn't good. (more can be added, these are just two examples)
2.how the tech points currently work, takes no real work and upgrades aren't tied to buildings. Both teams actually more alike with only slight differences, not good at all
3.alien abilities have been nerfed/gimped from what they were in ns1. Good example is look what they have done to fade's blink. You right when you say we need a class that can jump into the battlefield, and fade was one of those classes that done this. But it looks like ns2 going to be more about how many onos aliens can have to win. (seriously bad)
when marine going to tech up, people will start to realize how crappy alien abilities further more, especially the fade class, because of its slow blink. Much of the game in ns2 has been made so user-friendly, its no longer a challenge but rather "once we got this, we won."
as cory said he wants the fade to be more about stealth, alright fine but can't you see the clear problems with current blink? class has been reduced to chasing marines on foot, seriously its sad.
That's not true. I've tested it in a controlled setting and the secondary attack of the fade is indeed quite a bit longer range. Try it yourself. Go up to an extractor and back up. There is a point where you will do damage with secondary mode but not primary.
Also, the shotgun can <b>Easily</b> take down a harvester and other structures as its damage is so high.
IMHO the shotgun needs a nerf as you can easily 1 hit skulks and 1 hit lerks.
It is so easy to get as well.
Another thing is that I don't like the buying weapons system for the marines. Why did they implement that into the game? There is no reward system anymore (Like. Commander: Well done marine, you can have the first shotgun!) or anything like that.
I prefered the old weapon hand out than this one. The commander needs more control over which marines has what weapon.
I also have a problem with the flamethrower but I think this is a good way to fix it:
<!--quoteo(post=1833641:date=Feb 19 2011, 03:17 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 19 2011, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The flamethrower just <b>needs a range reduction</b>, for now. It is needed ingame to destroy DI, as well as repelling Lerks and Fades. Frankly, the flamethrower's damage is so low now (48 DPS), by itself, even killing a Skulk takes at least 2 seconds. Although I would like to see a cap on the <b>duration of the burn</b>, as well as a <b>reduction of the size of the flame cone</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I think the "The flamethrower's damage is so low now (48 DPS), by itself, even killing a Skulk takes at least 2 seconds."
AT LEAST 2 SECONDS???? Why at least? 2 seconds to kill a player is absolutely ridiculous...
I think more "Trigger" abilities will be introduced. Like the Shade? using a Hallucination triggered ability and other things. You should see them more as the game progresses.
But I have to agree with you. The Crag umbra is not used that much as it takes such a long time to trigger.
You have to select it and then click. This is too long becuase the Alien you might be trying to protect could be dead. One way of making this be used more is by increasing the time is stays.
This way, if you are the commander and you base if being attacked you can activate it and then hop of the commander position and (Attempt to) kill them.
- I wanted the ability for teams to choose a multiple-commander strategy, so this way you can choose to build stations/hives without upgrading them as a separate path from teching up.
[*]Why does Tram have those natural expansions so close to the start points? Shouldn't there be difficulty and risk involved in teching up?
- Quite possibly. It's tricky because we want to keep the maps small and simple (less effort for us, less effort for players to learn), but yes, it should be far enough away that it isn't so easily defended. Tram was our first real map and they may indeed be too close, time will tell.
[*]Skulks can't leap mid-air. Now that mini-leap isn't usable while moving, this restriction should be removed, for the sake of fun tier 2 gameplay.
- Leaping in mid-air was a bug in NS1. Leap's main purpose is to make skulks more effective against Tier 2 marines, so youhave a good point. It does break the immersion for me though, so it has to be balanced with that.
[*]Fade second attack can't hit moving targets and deals less DPS. What situation was it meant for?
- Originally this was an anti-structure attack, so it worked against stationary targets. Now it's supposed to allow a player with great timing to be even deadlier, but perhaps it's not working that way yet.
[*]Gorge infestation fades even if connected to hive (ed.) infestation. It takes ages to make a "bridge" using those small patches, isn't that enough of a disadvantage? Make them cost 1 plasma each if you have to, being able to assist the hive (ed.) directly would be so much fun.
- I've shied away from having any resources being spent from use of a first-person ability. It's too weird to be spending resources without realizing it. Maybe it should be faster/easier for him to build "bridges" though.
[*]How come we don't get more information on our HUDs, such as upgrade levels? Even essential things like team and personal resource counts are missing... I don't mind the healthbar hiding for aliens when outside of combat though.
- Oh you will! Just like NS1, you'l'l see all the current upgrades. We just haven't gotten to it yet.
[*]After purchasing a weapon at the armoury, shouldn't the menu close immediately? Even once we have exo/jp we'll be buying single items the vast majority of the time (tier 1&2).
- Good point. Originally we wanted the ability to buy upgrades at this screen as well, but that got cut. Maybe this would be better.
[*]Weren't alien players supposed to be able to use the "trigger" abilities of structures, like Crag Umbra? That sounded like a neat idea, expanding from the old NS1 functionality, but it's nowhere to be seen.
- Oh nope - the alien _commander_ can use the trigger abilities.
[*]Why was the Arms Lab cut in favour of placing every important marine upgrade on the Armoury? It's already a critical structure, what with buying weapons with personal resources.
- We were trying to conserve the amount of artwork we needed, which is what gave us the prototype attachment on the armory. It is a lot for one structure, but we have limited resources so aren't thinking of adding another structure for this yet. We are bringing back the Prototype Lab though, largely for this reason (get rid of all those ADDITIONAL tier 3 upgrades off the armory).
[*]Gorges place hydras/infestation immediately in front of them, with a delay for the uh, disgorging animation. This means that you can't move and place structures where you actually want them at the same time. If this is desired, just stop all movement while placing; if it's undesired, either place instantly or lob an "egg" projectile a very short distance that grows into the hydra/infestation.
- Heh. It feels pretty unresponsive to stop moving completely, but the idea here was to slow you down a whole lot while you were - disgorging. I believe this stopped working recently so it will be restored this way again shortly. I like your egg projectile idea though. At one point we were building that egg you see in the concept art, but not sure what the status of it is!
[/list]
edit: added numerical listing for ease of reference
[/quote]
<b>Oops I didn't see Cory already answered this, hope we jive!</b>
Look at this cat:
<img src="http://goofygifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/funny-gifs-cat-pops-water-balloon.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
If this cat can do what its doing, perhaps a skulk can slightly change its leap direction after leaping.
I don't think it's a matter of aircontrol, i.e. being able to change direction midair. The problem is jumping up, then firing Leap to suddenly rocket yourself away when you were... um... in the air and no surface to jump off of.
- I wanted the ability for teams to choose a multiple-commander strategy, so this way you can choose to build stations/hives without upgrading them as a separate path from teching up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having a second CC requires securing another tech point though. It's inconceivable that marines would do that without also choosing to take the tier 2 upgrade. Also, there isn't currently any way for marines to opt against supporting multiple commanders, which might be abusable.
So you'll have the option to either upgrade a single chair/hive or build at another tech point, for the same effect? (increasing tech level)
I really don't think you should sacrifice gameplay for realism after all NS isn't a sim game it's an action game.
No air leap is a major issue, it actually makes me not want to play NS2 out of pure frustration.
Just remember the player movement/feel is one of the most sacred things in a fps if you don't capture what people loved about NS1 then NS2 will not be as successful :/
You don't need to open the buy menu to get healed though by the armoury, just look towards it at close range.
I really don't think you should sacrifice gameplay for realism after all NS isn't a sim game it's an action game.
No air leap is a major issue, it actually makes me not want to play NS2 out of pure frustration.
Just remember the player movement/feel is one of the most sacred things in a fps if you don't capture what people loved about NS1 then NS2 will not be as successful :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much agree on all points here. People play for fun, not a simulation, especially with this game. Some notes:
-Bhopping is now removed (which although very fun for the user I didn't care too much about but having fully understood/mastered it made aircontrol a breeze in situations other than bhopping).
-Airleap is also removed.
-Skulks walk slower? (could be wrong)
-Tier 2 leap is now an upgrade that needs to be actively acquired (vs passively in ns1).
-Skulk's new tier 1 leap was reduced to mini-leap (and even talk of removing it entirely now?!). A good idea in theory and lets players feel like they are taring around the map even if they can't truly take advantage of the leap ability. Although I like the idea, I feel it should go just a LITTLE farther while moving and would feel 'correct'.
So basically in NS2, other than the fact skulks now have a near useless 'mini-leap', skulk movement in general has been crippled as a whole. I feel as if almost all of these nerfs have come from marines having trouble killing the skulks which has nothing to do with balance at all; it's almost strictly because trying to aim a gun while actively getting hitches is often just too hard to pull off without some element of luck.
<a href="http://nooooooooooooooo.com/" target="_blank">NNNOOOOoooooo</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1834387:date=Feb 22 2011, 10:15 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Feb 22 2011, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- We were trying to conserve the amount of artwork we needed [...] but we have limited resources so aren't thinking of adding another structure for this yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not that i care much about this because i'm not a RTS player at all buuut: you shouldn't cut a good gameplay/strategy idea because of artwork "intricacies". As far as i remember the hand grenade in ns1 came in as a custom model first and was then added into the game. Also the icon contest showed that this community has some talented and able people who could maybe support UW with some contributions if you would ask them.
<!--quoteo(post=1834387:date=Feb 22 2011, 10:15 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Feb 22 2011, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- I've shied away from having any resources being spent from use of a first-person ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should he spend res at all? The commander is spending only energy afaik so should the gorge.
/2ct
nooooooooooooooo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't worry, Tram is still, so far, the smallest and simplest of the official maps. The others are much larger and more complex. All together there should be a pretty good range of map sizes to be able to see which work the best for NS2 gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1834428:date=Feb 22 2011, 11:43 PM:name=Zeno)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeno @ Feb 22 2011, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not that i care much about this because i'm not a RTS player at all buuut: you shouldn't cut a good gameplay/strategy idea because of artwork "intricacies". As far as i remember the hand grenade in ns1 came in as a custom model first and was then added into the game. Also the icon contest showed that this community has some talented and able people who could maybe support UW with some contributions if you would ask them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lack of available resources, whether from programming, or from art, is always a valid reason for cutting good gameplay/strategy ideas, especially when you have such a small development team as we do. New marine structures involve quite a bit of my concept design time, to design the look, figure out how to make it fold up into a more compact state like the rest of the buildings so that it can have a deploy animation, etc. Then it has to be sent to the modeler/texture artists, and that costs money and time. Then for it to get rigged and animated and programmed is another substantial chunk of time. So, yes, in the early days of creating the schedule for the entire project, when there was just 4 of us sitting in the office, cutting down on the number of buildings and weapons was extremely important, even if it meant limiting the gameplay/strategy. We've always tried to retain the essential core elements that we've felt were necessary to preserve the NS spirit and to make NS2 as full featured and compelling as possible, so we try to cut things which aren't as crucial.
As far as the community involvement goes, creating minimap icons is just not the same as designing/modeling/animating a marine structure that fits the level of quality that we are looking for. I'm not saying there aren't people out there in our community up to the challenge, but for us to find the right person, and spend a lot of our time bringing them up to speed, is just to much of a risk.
--Cory
I think it already has an AOE of healing. I stood by it when I had low HP and I got healed. I didn't press E on it as I didn't need to buy anything.
Please don't shoot me, now.