QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
True. For example: the Power Pack seems to be minimally done, yet still very functional. It doesn't have to have complex animations to be useful or accepted by the community.
<!--quoteo(post=1834419:date=Feb 22 2011, 11:42 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Feb 22 2011, 11:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just remember the player movement/feel is one of the most sacred things in a fps if you don't capture what people loved about NS1 then NS2 will not be as successful :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well said!
current game has been reduced to easy mode, tech points and class abilities have been crippled down.
I'm just curious, what will be a good counter to jp? Onos will have to rely on low ceilings, Fades have had their blink crippled (not to mention the secondary swipe wouldn't work in air against a moving target), lerks don't have bite. Does that leave the airleapless skulk?
<!--quoteo(post=1834523:date=Feb 23 2011, 12:02 PM:name=Delphic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Delphic @ Feb 23 2011, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see why spiking JPs would be any harder than midair biting them...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Biting isn't much of a reliable answer to JPs anyway. Lerk gets really squishy for a 30 res lifeform once its mobility advantage is heavily reduced and the target is packing a heavier gun.
I guess spiking is a safer option than biting, but I still have my doubts about it being an effective counter. If it's any similar to NS1 sporelerking, it's still going to be tricky against skilled jetpackers. Often the moment you realize a jetpack is targetting you it's already way too late to run away. Spiking probably requires more exposure than sporing too.
So yeah, I guess spiking works if the jetpack flight model is slowed down, but otherwise I'm not sure whether the lerk has any good enough answer for them.
It's only my feeling or it's general think, but when you join team / respawning as alien, the camera is inside the egg and points out.. ( then you can see fragments of egg "shell" which are not clipped by normal vector, and it looks ugly :( )
Is it possible to change this camera to rotating around (self) egg, like you got when you evolve into higher forms ? Or remove (self) egg from world (of course on client side) and use texture to blur the screen as it was on NS1 ... please ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1834291:date=Feb 22 2011, 04:14 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Feb 22 2011, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AT LEAST 2 SECONDS???? Why at least? 2 seconds to kill a player is absolutely ridiculous...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You never played any FPS, did you?
Skillbased shooters like Quake I II II : shotgun does 200 dmg MAX = instant dead 0.0 seconds
Counterstrike: AWP/Headshot: 125-450 dmg = instant dead 0.0 seconds
UT: dripple rocket, sniperrifle headshot = instant dead 0.0 seconds
also in ultra newbgames like cod css and so on, there are instant kill weapons.
you ever got a headshot in RL? how long do you thin u will last after the bullet hits you? RIGHT! 0.0 seconds!
thats life, get over it.
if you are always dieing play vs ppl who are less skilled or adjust your playstyle. its survival of the fittest not of the whiniest.
it is called NATURAL SELECTION
Version 2 = a new different game, expect nothing, get everything. now shut up, go playtesting and stop whining around, because now we all know - you didn't have a clue 'bout FPS ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1834539:date=Feb 23 2011, 09:08 PM:name=derWalter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (derWalter @ Feb 23 2011, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you ever got a headshot in RL? how long do you thin u will last after the bullet hits you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Time = Distance between forehead and near-centre of brain / Speed of bullet
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[*]After taking a tech point we also have to upgrade a station/hive. Isn't it enough to just require X tech points to be captured?
(Flayra)- I wanted the ability for teams to choose a multiple-commander strategy, so this way you can choose to build stations/hives without upgrading them as a separate path from teching up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would that possibly mean that the Comm Station getting new abilities that use its energy reserve? Or perhaps each marine expansion would provide additional bonuses like the alien's (eg. receive a free Infantry Portal). There are so many interesting possibilities! :D
I hardly ever actually seen anyone use lerk bite versus JP in all my time playing NS, usually happens in desperate sacraficial moments when a jetpacker lands ontop of a hive, then its easy to get close and ambush in that small area as well as gas it prior to flying up, but if you can fly level from a distance you could snipe them off it with lerk secondary now. Whever the JP's come out most of the team including my self go lerk and spore them from a distance anyway but have to rely on a pro ace fader to pick off any elite Jetpackers that know when to get out of the spores. I have had loads of situations in ns1 where i wish a had the lerk spikes so I could gas them then shoot them down like an AA gun turret vs a Jchopper because relying on there always being some else round who is effective with another class is not an option and it should be the Lerk that is the king of taking on Jetpackers without risking getting close range shotgun owned from trying to bite that player, too easy to get killed for the cost and time it takes to become that lifeform over and over.
spikes have limited range now, at least less range than what they were in ns1. Which can help against jetpackers, but as for spores against jetpackers? well this might work if it was narrow hallway or some sort of closed area without having any place to fly up to. But normally good jetpackers will chase down the lerks, and kill them on the spot now. I can't believe you said lerk bite was hardly used against jetpackers.
But you know what was countering JP so well in ns1? fades, especially fades with focus. Many times it worked like this (depends on map and location) lerks would spore the marines try to, reduce the marines armor. Now fades just clean up, usually 1-2 hits them. But with current fade who cannot even catching sprinting marine, he will never catch jetpacker, ever, at the current state he is. I still can't believe cory said he wants fades to be more of stealth class...
<!--quoteo(post=1834454:date=Feb 22 2011, 08:26 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Feb 22 2011, 08:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know you have very high standards Cory, and your art is superb, but from the players point of view there's only so much time spent on beholding the structures in game. After the hundredth time looking at a marine building you wonder if a second rate model wouldn't have done the job too, especially if it enhances game play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you underestimate the appeal of good graphics, but if something like that were done now, it would almost certainly look terrible compared to the other buildings, making it a huge eyesore. More importantly, it would mess up the cohesive style that the rest of the games has.
Since the observatory has a very limited role now, is it possible to turn that into the high tier building? Admittedly, it'd look a little strange to be the place for exoskeletons and jetpacks, but leaving all upgrades in the armory is kind of annoying (I'd feel like I have to build a 2nd armory just to get the damage/armor upgrades done in a reasonable time), especially since alien upgrades are split up. Or maybe the CC would be a better choice...?
<!--quoteo(post=1834560:date=Feb 23 2011, 12:09 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Feb 23 2011, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hardly ever actually seen anyone use lerk bite versus JP in all my time playing NS, usually happens in desperate sacraficial moments when a jetpacker lands ontop of a hive, then its easy to get close and ambush in that small area as well as gas it prior to flying up, but if you can fly level from a distance you could snipe them off it with lerk secondary now. Whever the JP's come out most of the team including my self go lerk and spore them from a distance anyway but have to rely on a pro ace fader to pick off any elite Jetpackers that know when to get out of the spores. I have had loads of situations in ns1 where i wish a had the lerk spikes so I could gas them then shoot them down like an AA gun turret vs a Jchopper because relying on there always being some else round who is effective with another class is not an option and it should be the Lerk that is the king of taking on Jetpackers without risking getting close range shotgun owned from trying to bite that player, too easy to get killed for the cost and time it takes to become that lifeform over and over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually "pro ace" celery lerks can own jps quite well in NS1. They use vertical dimension maneuverability of lerk over jp to their survivability advantage and chomp away. It's just that fades are even better, so the "pro ace" players are usually fade at this point.
<!--quoteo(post=1834588:date=Feb 24 2011, 03:32 AM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Feb 24 2011, 03:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still can't believe cory said he wants fades to be more of stealth class...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> QQ
Well, that's pretty much all of your posts. QQing.
<!--quoteo(post=1834600:date=Feb 24 2011, 04:26 AM:name=Stele007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stele007 @ Feb 24 2011, 04:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you underestimate the appeal of good graphics, but if something like that were done now, it would almost certainly look terrible compared to the other buildings, making it a huge eyesore. More importantly, it would mess up the cohesive style that the rest of the games has.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Game should have started with placeholders. In fact, I wouldn't be averse to some placeholders still, if you make them perfectly obvious, e.g. white balls/boxes.
I still want the Gorge to have a bigger part of building structures and stuff...
I think that Drifters should not build things as fast as they do and that gorges should be NEEDED to help the commander build things. Otherwise he is feeling unused and just sicking up Hydras and puking out litte blobs of infestation...
Poor little thing...
Also, I thought that the marines were supposed to ONLY have 1 commander at a time? and that the Kharaa could have multiple. Allowing the teams to be slightly different from eachother.
<!--quoteo(post=1834520:date=Feb 23 2011, 04:48 AM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Feb 23 2011, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just curious, what will be a good counter to jp?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What makes you think JP will perform exactly the same? And as a followup, why would you then assume only old methods are capable? I think there's a good enough precedent so far to assume that it's not going to be exactly the same.
<!--quoteo(post=1834699:date=Feb 23 2011, 08:27 PM:name=Syriquez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syriquez @ Feb 23 2011, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What makes you think JP will perform exactly the same? And as a followup, why would you then assume only old methods are capable? I think there's a good enough precedent so far to assume that it's not going to be exactly the same.
And honestly, I hope it is completely different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe the fact they haven't said otherwise? Or should we hold off on all questions and assumptions because everything is subject to change? and tell me how a device that allows you to fly can be changed so drastically as to allow the secondary fade swipe to work? I mean, are you expecting the jp to be like jumppacks from hl1? Even that would be pretty ridiculous to hit.
My whole list about which lifeform was cut out to counter jp was spawned by the fact that they stripped skulks of air leap.
I hope it's not completely different at all. I loved the fast pace nature of NS, zipping around marines umbra and explosions left and right. Learning air control while maintaining aim was one of the more fun aspects not experienced in other video games. I want to fly goddamnit.
Am I the only person that finds the concept of a stealthy fade ridiculous. Don't we already have two stealth centric aliens?
I know the Onos is gonna be played aggressively, but could we have a bit more diversity between the rest of the aliens? So we've got stealthy ambusher, stealthy attrition, and stealthy ambusher 2.0 Additionally, this pervasive tendency to continually cripple the mobility of every single life-form seem to completely contradict this design direction. It's like the movement is being tuned for consoles, where tracking fast targets is severely limited. I'm perfectly aware that NS2 is not being made for consoles, which makes these decisions all the more confusing.
The only way I can describe this is just... dumbing down of gameplay.
The fact that I have the option of being a great player and rise above the average is a big part of what makes keep playing a game. I don't discard a game because it takes me and entire week to master the basics it. Maybe my attention span is freakishly long like that, but I like to hope it's the case for many players out there.
Games with low a skill-ceiling tend to die as FOTM. Hence why they release a new CoD every year. I would hate to see NS2 wither within a year passing.
What will keep this game from becoming a short-lived fad is the modding community. Regardless though I completely agree about this dumbing down of alien movement (<b>especially</b> for skulks). Instead of slowing down the aliens, lets fix hitching so the marines can accurately aim again maybe?
<!--quoteo(post=1834782:date=Feb 24 2011, 06:52 PM:name=cookman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cookman @ Feb 24 2011, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Am I the only person that finds the concept of a stealthy fade ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not very convinced of it yet, but it's a bit difficult to argue against a developer who has more than enough inside information and far better grasp of the overall concept...
It seems weird that aliens are lacking any kind of higher end combatant until onos though. It's another sort of unproven concept that NS2 has a plenty. I hope the gameplay reaches a state where they can start proving the concepts sooner rather than later.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What will keep this game from becoming a short-lived fad is the modding community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know if even modding is going to save NS2 if the general concept doesn't work. Modding requires a big starting playerbase or it'll become fragmented and die away or at least diminish heavily.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regardless though I completely agree about this dumbing down of alien movement (especially for skulks).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think there have been mentions of some kind of movement system getting added. It's definitely not the easiest thing to do properly though, so I'm not sure at which point they'll have time to focus on it as much as it takes.
<!--quoteo(post=1834782:date=Feb 24 2011, 06:52 PM:name=cookman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cookman @ Feb 24 2011, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Am I the only person that finds the concept of a stealthy fade ridiculous. Don't we already have two stealth centric aliens?
I know the Onos is gonna be played aggressively, but could we have a bit more diversity between the rest of the aliens? So we've got stealthy ambusher, stealthy attrition, and stealthy ambusher 2.0 Additionally, this pervasive tendency to continually cripple the mobility of every single life-form seem to completely contradict this design direction. It's like the movement is being tuned for consoles, where tracking fast targets is severely limited. I'm perfectly aware that NS2 is not being made for consoles, which makes these decisions all the more confusing.
The only way I can describe this is just... dumbing down of gameplay.
The fact that I have the option of being a great player and rise above the average is a big part of what makes keep playing a game. I don't discard a game because it takes me and entire week to fully dominate it. Maybe my attention span is freakishly long like that, but I like to hope it's the case for many players out there.
Games with low a skill-ceiling tend to die as FOTM. Hence why they release a now CoD every year. I would hate to see NS2 wither within a year passing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
couldn't agree more, well said.
it feels like the game was stripped down from all the challenges it had into easy mode game play, which would help anyone who hasn't played ns1 before. So yes, pretty much dumbing-down the game for new players but the older player see this as huge problem (which is it). They crippled alien abilities, and commanding become same as marine commanding.
as for the fade, many people including me have been stressing this problem the moment fade was revealed. The ability offers nothing but special effects. its for people who are new to the game who might see this as an amazing ability, or people who haven't played ns1 to see how pitiful the fade became. The only reason why fade become the way he d is because the developers spend good time talking about these ideas, but do not realize some ideas do not translate into game play at all. On paper, or talking about it, might sound promising but once its in-game it doesn't work. Blink should be fast, and quick but even aside from that not able to catch moving targets, get into vents and poor aiming system, so much problems yet to see developers talk about it. other examples is how useless the gorge became, i've played gorge for long time, and being limited to dropping offense chamber constantly has to be the worse idea, ever. And now they made the gorge rooted into the floor while he builds something. So no self heal, slow moving and rooted into the floor while he builds. can't believe this even...
<!--quoteo(post=1834782:date=Feb 24 2011, 01:52 PM:name=cookman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cookman @ Feb 24 2011, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like the movement is being tuned for consoles, where tracking fast targets is severely limited.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is just temporary, until they address performance issues. Then they'll rebalance the game after that.
<!--quoteo(post=1834782:date=Feb 24 2011, 11:52 AM:name=cookman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cookman @ Feb 24 2011, 11:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Am I the only person that finds the concept of a stealthy fade ridiculous. Don't we already have two stealth centric aliens?
I know the Onos is gonna be played aggressively, but could we have a bit more diversity between the rest of the aliens? So we've got stealthy ambusher, stealthy attrition, and stealthy ambusher 2.0 Additionally, this pervasive tendency to continually cripple the mobility of every single life-form seem to completely contradict this design direction. It's like the movement is being tuned for consoles, where tracking fast targets is severely limited. I'm perfectly aware that NS2 is not being made for consoles, which makes these decisions all the more confusing.
The only way I can describe this is just... dumbing down of gameplay.
The fact that I have the option of being a great player and rise above the average is a big part of what makes keep playing a game. I don't discard a game because it takes me and entire week to fully dominate it. Maybe my attention span is freakishly long like that, but I like to hope it's the case for many players out there.
Games with low a skill-ceiling tend to die as FOTM. Hence why they release a now CoD every year. I would hate to see NS2 wither within a year passing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, and agreed. Through years and years of NS I'm still playing this damned awesome game because I learn new things and new ways to play different aliens and marines even to this day.
What was that quote that someone put up, easy to learn, difficult to master? Learning all the basic facets of the complex game for a newb made ns just so appealing and forboding. It wasn't a task it was an adventure.
Please please inject the good dosage of fast paced nature into this game. I go for long walks and go shooting in real life already- make this an adrenaline rush.
I think most people will agree that one of NS's core pillars was movement. Movement needs to be responsive, fast, fluid and challenging. At the moment NS2's movement is not. I believe this is going to be addressed.
<!--quoteo(post=1834794:date=Feb 24 2011, 03:57 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Feb 24 2011, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So no self heal, slow moving and rooted into the floor while he builds. can't believe this even...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is also a huge concern of mine. The very notion that aliens under any circumstances should be rendered immobile, apart from gestation, is preposterous. I cannot even begin to fathom how anyone could imagine this being a good idea. It's the same with fade's alternative attack. It's just plain mind boggling.
Anyone who had a taste of NS1s combat dynamics will instantly recognize that an immobile alien is a dead alien. No exceptions. Because of how much damage you take under direct fire, the moment you stand still in the presence of a marine, you've already lost. This fundamentally bars the gorge from any front line presence. If you have to stand still to do your job, there is no chance of you accomplishing it while being pressured by incoming marines. Even when fully mobile, the gorge is already in mortal danger the moment a marine picks it as his target. So, why is it suddenly necessary to increase the gorges obvious vulnerability to absurd heights? Well, it's not. Not under any circumstances. It's just a completely contradictory design decision.
Maps are made smaller, so combat encounters are more frequent. Gorges are further impaired in combat situations, and barred from doing construction duty while in a combat situation.
It feels like the gorge has just been added to appease us NS1 nostalgics. You're not really supposed to play gorge, because the commander is gonna do all the work, but you can if you REALLY want to. It's the direction we're heading.
Please, for the love of god, no more movement impairments. What's next? Lerk can't spike while airborne? I mean, flying targets are hella hard to hit; it's no fair they can shoot back then! Kharaa are going to need wheelchairs soon.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2011
I wouldn't mind the Gorge gaining more bulk and health. The early game aliens (Skulk, Lerk, and Gorge) are all very fragile. The Gorge could be given a more powerful defensive role against marine (Shotgun) rushes, with the help of Lerks and Skulks.
IMO, the Fade (aka Stealth Ambusher 2.0) should be a creature you cannot turn your back on, without getting ripped to shreds. Perhaps the Stab attack should be replaced with a lunge attack.
<!--quoteo(post=1834652:date=Feb 23 2011, 06:42 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 23 2011, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Game should have started with placeholders. In fact, I wouldn't be averse to some placeholders still, if you make them perfectly obvious, e.g. white balls/boxes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Since we're still in a testing phase, why not make a giant orange box, call it an "arms lab," and see what happens? Does having to change between what marine advantage to eliminate add more depth to the gameplay? I don't think anyone would complain if it's obviously a test feature. I understand the need to prioritize time, but wouldn't it be incredibly time efficient to give us something really "cheap" to test? Let the testers help ya out :P
I have to admit I'm also concerned about how the aliens are gonna kill any jetpacks, unless jp mobility has been reduced drastically from NS1. My rationale:
JP wasn't used simply for vertical movement in NS1, it was also a very fast way to get around. If that holds true in NS2, I would imagine a JP has to be at least as fast as marine sprint, otherwise the marine can simply get around just fine without a JP. There'd be no real point unless you had to go up for some reason. Aliens have enough trouble catching sprinting marines as is, so if they can FLY on top of being fast, how the hell will any life form catch a JP marine? No lerk bite, current blink would fail hardcore, and no midair leap. Hydras would be.... meh. Even if they do hit the flyer, they're easy enough to take out.
Option 2, JP gets a huge nerf from NS1, and does not move quickly horizontally. Personally I don't like the idea, but it has balance merit: If a JP marine moves faster sprinting than in the air, he's more vulnerable and he has to be careful moving around on the ground, less he risk losing the res he spent. JP would be much more situational, only needed for going up or down (or camping ceilings), which means far less marines would pick it, and other strategies for marines become more interesting. Won't always be wondering when the JP rush will be coming in. Exoskeletons might see more use, or just regular marines with varied weapons. Also, it would solve some of the sillier notions, such as JP through all the vents at top speed.
I'd just like to know what UWE is thinking for the jetpack, so we can all have a better picture of what the aliens need to be able to do in order to counter it.
<!--quoteo(post=1835253:date=Feb 27 2011, 07:09 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Feb 27 2011, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since we're still in a testing phase, why not make a giant orange box, call it an "arms lab," and see what happens? Does having to change between what marine advantage to eliminate add more depth to the gameplay? I don't think anyone would complain if it's obviously a test feature. I understand the need to prioritize time, but wouldn't it be incredibly time efficient to give us something really "cheap" to test?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> At this point in development, its not so much the art time, as the programming time. We could put in a giant orange box as a stand in model, but it still needs the programming time to make it fully functional from a gameplay standpoint. Since art is no longer the bottleneck, by the time the programming time is available, the art is usually ready to go, so it often makes sense to just wait for the final art to be done.
But we still use placeholder graphics to test gameplay, as you can see in the rough implementation of DI that is in the current beta. <!--quoteo(post=1835190:date=Feb 27 2011, 05:27 AM:name=cookman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cookman @ Feb 27 2011, 05:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is also a huge concern of mine. The very notion that aliens under any circumstances should be rendered immobile, apart from gestation, is preposterous. I cannot even begin to fathom how anyone could imagine this being a good idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Charlie already responded to the gorge not moving, so I'm not sure why this continues to be debated. Charlie said "It feels pretty unresponsive to stop moving completely, but the idea here was to slow you down a whole lot while you were - disgorging. I believe this stopped working recently so it will be restored this way again shortly." It was never intended to completely stop your movement as a gorge, and it will be fixed.
Comments
well said!
current game has been reduced to easy mode, tech points and class abilities have been crippled down.
lack of replies towards fades blink isn't good.
Biting isn't much of a reliable answer to JPs anyway. Lerk gets really squishy for a 30 res lifeform once its mobility advantage is heavily reduced and the target is packing a heavier gun.
I guess spiking is a safer option than biting, but I still have my doubts about it being an effective counter. If it's any similar to NS1 sporelerking, it's still going to be tricky against skilled jetpackers. Often the moment you realize a jetpack is targetting you it's already way too late to run away. Spiking probably requires more exposure than sporing too.
So yeah, I guess spiking works if the jetpack flight model is slowed down, but otherwise I'm not sure whether the lerk has any good enough answer for them.
( then you can see fragments of egg "shell" which are not clipped by normal vector, and it looks ugly :( )
Is it possible to change this camera to rotating around (self) egg, like you got when you evolve into higher forms ?
Or remove (self) egg from world (of course on client side) and use texture to blur the screen as it was on NS1 ... please ;)
You never played any FPS, did you?
Skillbased shooters like Quake I II II : shotgun does 200 dmg MAX = instant dead 0.0 seconds
Counterstrike: AWP/Headshot: 125-450 dmg = instant dead 0.0 seconds
UT: dripple rocket, sniperrifle headshot = instant dead 0.0 seconds
also in ultra newbgames like cod css and so on, there are instant kill weapons.
you ever got a headshot in RL? how long do you thin u will last after the bullet hits you?
RIGHT! 0.0 seconds!
thats life, get over it.
if you are always dieing play vs ppl who are less skilled
or adjust your playstyle. its survival of the fittest not of the whiniest.
it is called NATURAL SELECTION
Version 2 = a new different game, expect nothing, get everything.
now shut up, go playtesting and stop whining around,
because now we all know - you didn't have a clue 'bout FPS ;)
hard but true - sry kid.
Time = Distance between forehead and near-centre of brain / Speed of bullet
Probably does round to 0.0 seconds. :L
(Flayra)- I wanted the ability for teams to choose a multiple-commander strategy, so this way you can choose to build stations/hives without upgrading them as a separate path from teching up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would that possibly mean that the Comm Station getting new abilities that use its energy reserve? Or perhaps each marine expansion would provide additional bonuses like the alien's (eg. receive a free Infantry Portal). There are so many interesting possibilities! :D
Whever the JP's come out most of the team including my self go lerk and spore them from a distance anyway but have to rely on a pro ace fader to pick off any elite Jetpackers that know when to get out of the spores. I have had loads of situations in ns1 where i wish a had the lerk spikes so I could gas them then shoot them down like an AA gun turret vs a Jchopper because relying on there always being some else round who is effective with another class is not an option and it should be the Lerk that is the king of taking on Jetpackers without risking getting close range shotgun owned from trying to bite that player, too easy to get killed for the cost and time it takes to become that lifeform over and over.
But you know what was countering JP so well in ns1? fades, especially fades with focus. Many times it worked like this (depends on map and location) lerks would spore the marines try to, reduce the marines armor. Now fades just clean up, usually 1-2 hits them. But with current fade who cannot even catching sprinting marine, he will never catch jetpacker, ever, at the current state he is. I still can't believe cory said he wants fades to be more of stealth class...
I think you underestimate the appeal of good graphics, but if something like that were done now, it would almost certainly look terrible compared to the other buildings, making it a huge eyesore. More importantly, it would mess up the cohesive style that the rest of the games has.
Since the observatory has a very limited role now, is it possible to turn that into the high tier building? Admittedly, it'd look a little strange to be the place for exoskeletons and jetpacks, but leaving all upgrades in the armory is kind of annoying (I'd feel like I have to build a 2nd armory just to get the damage/armor upgrades done in a reasonable time), especially since alien upgrades are split up. Or maybe the CC would be a better choice...?
Whever the JP's come out most of the team including my self go lerk and spore them from a distance anyway but have to rely on a pro ace fader to pick off any elite Jetpackers that know when to get out of the spores. I have had loads of situations in ns1 where i wish a had the lerk spikes so I could gas them then shoot them down like an AA gun turret vs a Jchopper because relying on there always being some else round who is effective with another class is not an option and it should be the Lerk that is the king of taking on Jetpackers without risking getting close range shotgun owned from trying to bite that player, too easy to get killed for the cost and time it takes to become that lifeform over and over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually "pro ace" celery lerks can own jps quite well in NS1. They use vertical dimension maneuverability of lerk over jp to their survivability advantage and chomp away. It's just that fades are even better, so the "pro ace" players are usually fade at this point.
QQ
Well, that's pretty much all of your posts. QQing.
<!--quoteo(post=1834600:date=Feb 24 2011, 04:26 AM:name=Stele007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stele007 @ Feb 24 2011, 04:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you underestimate the appeal of good graphics, but if something like that were done now, it would almost certainly look terrible compared to the other buildings, making it a huge eyesore. More importantly, it would mess up the cohesive style that the rest of the games has.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Game should have started with placeholders. In fact, I wouldn't be averse to some placeholders still, if you make them perfectly obvious, e.g. white balls/boxes.
I think that Drifters should not build things as fast as they do and that gorges should be NEEDED to help the commander build things. Otherwise he is feeling unused and just sicking up Hydras and puking out litte blobs of infestation...
Poor little thing...
Also, I thought that the marines were supposed to ONLY have 1 commander at a time?
and that the Kharaa could have multiple. Allowing the teams to be slightly different from eachother.
What makes you think JP will perform exactly the same? And as a followup, why would you then assume only old methods are capable? I think there's a good enough precedent so far to assume that it's not going to be exactly the same.
And honestly, I hope it is completely different.
And honestly, I hope it is completely different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe the fact they haven't said otherwise? Or should we hold off on all questions and assumptions because everything is subject to change? and tell me how a device that allows you to fly can be changed so drastically as to allow the secondary fade swipe to work? I mean, are you expecting the jp to be like jumppacks from hl1? Even that would be pretty ridiculous to hit.
My whole list about which lifeform was cut out to counter jp was spawned by the fact that they stripped skulks of air leap.
I hope it's not completely different at all. I loved the fast pace nature of NS, zipping around marines umbra and explosions left and right. Learning air control while maintaining aim was one of the more fun aspects not experienced in other video games. I want to fly goddamnit.
I know the Onos is gonna be played aggressively, but could we have a bit more diversity between the rest of the aliens?
So we've got stealthy ambusher, stealthy attrition, and stealthy ambusher 2.0
Additionally, this pervasive tendency to continually cripple the mobility of every single life-form seem to completely contradict this design direction.
It's like the movement is being tuned for consoles, where tracking fast targets is severely limited. I'm perfectly aware that NS2 is not being made for consoles, which makes these decisions all the more confusing.
The only way I can describe this is just... dumbing down of gameplay.
The fact that I have the option of being a great player and rise above the average is a big part of what makes keep playing a game. I don't discard a game because it takes me and entire week to master the basics it. Maybe my attention span is freakishly long like that, but I like to hope it's the case for many players out there.
Games with low a skill-ceiling tend to die as FOTM. Hence why they release a new CoD every year. I would hate to see NS2 wither within a year passing.
I'm not very convinced of it yet, but it's a bit difficult to argue against a developer who has more than enough inside information and far better grasp of the overall concept...
It seems weird that aliens are lacking any kind of higher end combatant until onos though. It's another sort of unproven concept that NS2 has a plenty. I hope the gameplay reaches a state where they can start proving the concepts sooner rather than later.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What will keep this game from becoming a short-lived fad is the modding community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if even modding is going to save NS2 if the general concept doesn't work. Modding requires a big starting playerbase or it'll become fragmented and die away or at least diminish heavily.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regardless though I completely agree about this dumbing down of alien movement (especially for skulks).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there have been mentions of some kind of movement system getting added. It's definitely not the easiest thing to do properly though, so I'm not sure at which point they'll have time to focus on it as much as it takes.
I know the Onos is gonna be played aggressively, but could we have a bit more diversity between the rest of the aliens?
So we've got stealthy ambusher, stealthy attrition, and stealthy ambusher 2.0
Additionally, this pervasive tendency to continually cripple the mobility of every single life-form seem to completely contradict this design direction.
It's like the movement is being tuned for consoles, where tracking fast targets is severely limited. I'm perfectly aware that NS2 is not being made for consoles, which makes these decisions all the more confusing.
The only way I can describe this is just... dumbing down of gameplay.
The fact that I have the option of being a great player and rise above the average is a big part of what makes keep playing a game. I don't discard a game because it takes me and entire week to fully dominate it. Maybe my attention span is freakishly long like that, but I like to hope it's the case for many players out there.
Games with low a skill-ceiling tend to die as FOTM. Hence why they release a now CoD every year. I would hate to see NS2 wither within a year passing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
couldn't agree more, well said.
it feels like the game was stripped down from all the challenges it had into easy mode game play, which would help anyone who hasn't played ns1 before. So yes, pretty much dumbing-down the game for new players but the older player see this as huge problem (which is it). They crippled alien abilities, and commanding become same as marine commanding.
as for the fade, many people including me have been stressing this problem the moment fade was revealed. The ability offers nothing but special effects. its for people who are new to the game who might see this as an amazing ability, or people who haven't played ns1 to see how pitiful the fade became. The only reason why fade become the way he d is because the developers spend good time talking about these ideas, but do not realize some ideas do not translate into game play at all. On paper, or talking about it, might sound promising but once its in-game it doesn't work. Blink should be fast, and quick but even aside from that not able to catch moving targets, get into vents and poor aiming system, so much problems yet to see developers talk about it. other examples is how useless the gorge became, i've played gorge for long time, and being limited to dropping offense chamber constantly has to be the worse idea, ever. And now they made the gorge rooted into the floor while he builds something. So no self heal, slow moving and rooted into the floor while he builds. can't believe this even...
I think this is just temporary, until they address performance issues. Then they'll rebalance the game after that.
I know the Onos is gonna be played aggressively, but could we have a bit more diversity between the rest of the aliens?
So we've got stealthy ambusher, stealthy attrition, and stealthy ambusher 2.0
Additionally, this pervasive tendency to continually cripple the mobility of every single life-form seem to completely contradict this design direction.
It's like the movement is being tuned for consoles, where tracking fast targets is severely limited. I'm perfectly aware that NS2 is not being made for consoles, which makes these decisions all the more confusing.
The only way I can describe this is just... dumbing down of gameplay.
The fact that I have the option of being a great player and rise above the average is a big part of what makes keep playing a game. I don't discard a game because it takes me and entire week to fully dominate it. Maybe my attention span is freakishly long like that, but I like to hope it's the case for many players out there.
Games with low a skill-ceiling tend to die as FOTM. Hence why they release a now CoD every year. I would hate to see NS2 wither within a year passing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+2
What was that quote that someone put up, easy to learn, difficult to master? Learning all the basic facets of the complex game for a newb made ns just so appealing and forboding. It wasn't a task it was an adventure.
Please please inject the good dosage of fast paced nature into this game. I go for long walks and go shooting in real life already- make this an adrenaline rush.
This is also a huge concern of mine. The very notion that aliens under any circumstances should be rendered immobile, apart from gestation, is preposterous. I cannot even begin to fathom how anyone could imagine this being a good idea. It's the same with fade's alternative attack. It's just plain mind boggling.
Anyone who had a taste of NS1s combat dynamics will instantly recognize that an immobile alien is a dead alien. No exceptions. Because of how much damage you take under direct fire, the moment you stand still in the presence of a marine, you've already lost. This fundamentally bars the gorge from any front line presence. If you have to stand still to do your job, there is no chance of you accomplishing it while being pressured by incoming marines. Even when fully mobile, the gorge is already in mortal danger the moment a marine picks it as his target. So, why is it suddenly necessary to increase the gorges obvious vulnerability to absurd heights? Well, it's not. Not under any circumstances. It's just a completely contradictory design decision.
Maps are made smaller, so combat encounters are more frequent.
Gorges are further impaired in combat situations, and barred from doing construction duty while in a combat situation.
It feels like the gorge has just been added to appease us NS1 nostalgics. You're not really supposed to play gorge, because the commander is gonna do all the work, but you can if you REALLY want to. It's the direction we're heading.
Please, for the love of god, no more movement impairments. What's next? Lerk can't spike while airborne? I mean, flying targets are hella hard to hit; it's no fair they can shoot back then! Kharaa are going to need wheelchairs soon.
IMO, the Fade (aka Stealth Ambusher 2.0) should be a creature you cannot turn your back on, without getting ripped to shreds. Perhaps the Stab attack should be replaced with a lunge attack.
I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Since we're still in a testing phase, why not make a giant orange box, call it an "arms lab," and see what happens? Does having to change between what marine advantage to eliminate add more depth to the gameplay? I don't think anyone would complain if it's obviously a test feature. I understand the need to prioritize time, but wouldn't it be incredibly time efficient to give us something really "cheap" to test? Let the testers help ya out :P
I have to admit I'm also concerned about how the aliens are gonna kill any jetpacks, unless jp mobility has been reduced drastically from NS1. My rationale:
JP wasn't used simply for vertical movement in NS1, it was also a very fast way to get around. If that holds true in NS2, I would imagine a JP has to be at least as fast as marine sprint, otherwise the marine can simply get around just fine without a JP. There'd be no real point unless you had to go up for some reason. Aliens have enough trouble catching sprinting marines as is, so if they can FLY on top of being fast, how the hell will any life form catch a JP marine? No lerk bite, current blink would fail hardcore, and no midair leap. Hydras would be.... meh. Even if they do hit the flyer, they're easy enough to take out.
Option 2, JP gets a huge nerf from NS1, and does not move quickly horizontally. Personally I don't like the idea, but it has balance merit:
If a JP marine moves faster sprinting than in the air, he's more vulnerable and he has to be careful moving around on the ground, less he risk losing the res he spent. JP would be much more situational, only needed for going up or down (or camping ceilings), which means far less marines would pick it, and other strategies for marines become more interesting. Won't always be wondering when the JP rush will be coming in. Exoskeletons might see more use, or just regular marines with varied weapons.
Also, it would solve some of the sillier notions, such as JP through all the vents at top speed.
I'd just like to know what UWE is thinking for the jetpack, so we can all have a better picture of what the aliens need to be able to do in order to counter it.
At this point in development, its not so much the art time, as the programming time. We could put in a giant orange box as a stand in model, but it still needs the programming time to make it fully functional from a gameplay standpoint. Since art is no longer the bottleneck, by the time the programming time is available, the art is usually ready to go, so it often makes sense to just wait for the final art to be done.
But we still use placeholder graphics to test gameplay, as you can see in the rough implementation of DI that is in the current beta.
<!--quoteo(post=1835190:date=Feb 27 2011, 05:27 AM:name=cookman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cookman @ Feb 27 2011, 05:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is also a huge concern of mine. The very notion that aliens under any circumstances should be rendered immobile, apart from gestation, is preposterous. I cannot even begin to fathom how anyone could imagine this being a good idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Charlie already responded to the gorge not moving, so I'm not sure why this continues to be debated. Charlie said "It feels pretty unresponsive to stop moving completely, but the idea here was to slow you down a whole lot while you were - disgorging. I believe this stopped working recently so it will be restored this way again shortly." It was never intended to completely stop your movement as a gorge, and it will be fixed.
--Cory