Darkness of the maps.

IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
(Not trying to repeat a subject here, i know there are multiple threads discussing this, just thinking about how much more important this issue is now that alien vision will be included.)

Will the maps get any darker or will the red lights / power outage get any darker?

because currently there are very few places (read: ceiling corners) akin to NS1 darkness for a skulk..
even in the emergency red lighting, as a marine its incredibly easy to see any skulk - still or moving.

and now with the aliens getting a vision mode... it will just be visual noise if it is not clear where darkness is, and if darkness isn't, er, dark enough.

amazing video and effects btw..
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Comments

  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Members
    you're not alone, many want bit darker rooms when power nodes go down. right now marines hardly ever use flashlights in dark rooms, we need to force the use of flashlights more often. And darkness needs play better role in the game now since we have alien vision.
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    more mood lighting when the power goes out - not the blackness/darkness
  • Art2Art2 Join Date: 2011-02-11 Member: 81365Members
    I have to object this. In my opinion the maps are already too dark and lacking of proper sense of space. You can always add more dark spots but overall darkness of the maps shouldnt be increased.
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
    We've only got one proper map (tram) right now. The devs have said that the maps will all be very different from each other, and don't forget all those custom maps in development.
  • ZenoZeno Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62183Members
    i too think that the red lights are too bright. It should be only so bright to see some geometry but not more. Marines would be forced to use the flashlight. Aliens however must have an appropriate alien vision.
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to object this. In my opinion the maps are already too dark and lacking of proper sense of space. You can always add more dark spots but overall darkness of the maps shouldnt be increased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    What monitor are you running this on? The problem is that this is so dependent on PC spec.

    I have a Laptop monitor (TN Panel) with dual display running on a Dell 22" (IPS - Panel). Because the blacks on the IPS panel are awesome it looks very dark in areas, where as on the TN panel (most gamers will make use of these because of fast response times) you have less of a contrast ratio and things tend to look a lot brighter.

    To be honest I would prefer if UWE said "let's go the whole way" forcing players to use flash lights and alien vision. Rather than taking the middle ground which is dependent on factors like this, rather than intended game play mechanics.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited February 2011
    With the upcoming enhanced vision for Kharaa, I don't think there is a need to handicap marines furthur in unpowered rooms. Reduced visibility will cause frustration, and encourage marines to crank up their screen gamma.

    There is a thread for <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112711" target="_blank">alien camouflage bonus on Dynamic Infestation</a> in the suggestions forums. I would love to see that implemented instead of pitch darkness.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    Can we have a different colour to red for the emergency lighting? I really dislike it.
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I know what you mean about the emergency lighting. Everything looks really flat when you have one colour because you don't have the usual effects of light hitting a surface. Such as sub-surface scattering, light absorption or reflection.

    What needs to happen is that mappers need to be able to alter the emergency lighting effect, so they can put hues in with yellow/pink mixes to create some variation to the colour space. I could be wrong and this is occurring already, but it doesn't seem to be.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1831753:date=Feb 12 2011, 04:32 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Feb 12 2011, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know what you mean about the emergency lighting. Everything looks really flat when you have one colour because you don't have the usual effects of light hitting a surface. Such as sub-surface scattering, light absorption or reflection.

    What needs to happen is that mappers need to be able to alter the emergency lighting effect, so they can put hues in with yellow/pink mixes to create some variation to the colour space. I could be wrong and this is occurring already, but it doesn't seem to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You don't get that anyway, spark doesn't do that.

    The only thing coloured light does is mess with the colour of stuff it hits.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    i suppose you all have good points, but the bottom line to me is: the game is never ever dark enough for me to <i>not </i>see a skulk .... except for those few rare ~4 seconds of darkness before the annoying bright red lights come on.

    <b><i>whats the point of both dynamic lighting and flashlights if the game is always bright in every environment?</i></b>
    why are we not forcing the marines to use their flashlight due to darkness when the power is cut??
    other than disabling the marine structures there is currently no point in destroying a power node for darkness..

    (i am using a newish Asus 1080p 24" LCD monitor)
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    There weren't really any dark areas in NS1 after 2.x. Unless you played a custom map or one small area of Hera I can think of.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited February 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1831717:date=Feb 12 2011, 05:35 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 12 2011, 05:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831717"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reduced visibility will cause frustration, and encourage marines to crank up their screen gamma.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    reduced visibility will cause marines to use their flashlights and actually feel a sense of fear, panic, or anxiety. not frustration. who is frustrated because the skulk cleverly positioned himself in the corner above me in the darkness and eats me because i didnt look beforehand? you jump and scream and fire.. but the skulk was doing what he was supposed to be doing, being clever, cautious, and lerking in the shadows as an alien.. while you were being the marine with the gun and a flashlight.

    <i>in a well lit large room there is no equality between a marine and a skulk.</i>

    cranking up their screen gamma should be capped or limited severely to avoid this issue. everyone hates exploiters.
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't get that anyway, spark doesn't do that.

    The only thing coloured light does is mess with the colour of stuff it hits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I know it doesn't do that, that is the point. At the moment mappers have to fake this sort of thing, by creating reflected light sources behind pipes and what not. That is why the maps have over 1000 lights in them. Otherwise it would look really flat.

    That is why you need different hues of red/yellow/etc to bring more life to the emergency lighting.
  • sheena_yanaisheena_yanai Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11426Members
    oh my, bast had some neat dark areas, and such lovely vents and hidey spots
    always loved the original bast with its nostromo like theme going on
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Darkness is a terrible multiplayer game feature. See Doom 3.

    At a minimum, all darkness should be temporary and hamper both sides equally.
  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Members
    i never wanted complete darkness but diffidently rooms should be darker than they are now though. The red light helps too much to see, make the rooms where power nodes go down bit darker so marines will be forced to use flashlights more often since right now they can easily see in them. adjusting darkness and red lights would be better would be great just not pitch darkness.
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    This is a guess on my part but I believe the emergency lighting has a default value not controlled by the mapper. I imagine in the future there will be more control over it so the mapper can actually design what it is going to be like when in emergency lighting instead of a default red for all lights subject to the powergrid.
  • SkiddywinksSkiddywinks Join Date: 2011-01-12 Member: 77239Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1831799:date=Feb 12 2011, 09:15 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Feb 12 2011, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Darkness is a terrible multiplayer game feature. See Doom 3.

    At a minimum, all darkness should be temporary and hamper both sides equally.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Unless you are talking about the mod that allowed both the flash light and gun to be used at the same time, then you are missing a rather large and obvious difference between Doom 3 and NS2. And if you are talking about your opinion of the Doom 3 darkness including mod, well, I guess we just disagree.

    Fact is, the marine flashlight is useless at the moment. The emergency lighting is just normal lighting, but red, for all intents and purposes. I don't even have any trouble seeing marines as an alien, making the effort put into the alien view mode also pointless. Although it looks damn cool.

    If it was my game, I would make nodeless rooms pitch black, but give marines more light options. Obviously, this wouldn't be for everyone, so I would gladly settle for them just making it so that the flashlight is needed. I honestly don't even instinctively turn it on in a powerless room. It might as well be taken out, at least that would make it worth having emergency lighting at all. Currently, the only advantage it gives aliens is the rare corner you can actually not be seen in. What a waste of such an awesome lighting engine.
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    You bring up a good point Skiddywinks. The gameplay idea behind the flashlight and the gameplay idea behind emergency lighting is at the moment unclear.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1831790:date=Feb 12 2011, 08:46 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Feb 12 2011, 08:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know it doesn't do that, that is the point. At the moment mappers have to fake this sort of thing, by creating reflected light sources behind pipes and what not. That is why the maps have over 1000 lights in them. Otherwise it would look really flat.

    That is why you need different hues of red/yellow/etc to bring more life to the emergency lighting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    All emergency lighting does is turn the lights red and make them pulse, you still get the reflected lights and suchlike, they're just red, which makes sense because the light it is 'reflecting' is red.

    Literally the only thing you lose is the colour, you aren't going to get that back unless you make emergency lights dark grey or have three or four different primary colours of light.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1831847:date=Feb 12 2011, 08:00 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Feb 12 2011, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You bring up a good point Skiddywinks. The gameplay idea behind the flashlight and the gameplay idea behind emergency lighting is at the moment unclear.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    ::facepalm::
    he just re iterated my whole point of why i made this thread lol
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All emergency lighting does is turn the lights red and make them pulse, you still get the reflected lights and suchlike, they're just red, which makes sense because the light it is 'reflecting' is red.

    Literally the only thing you lose is the colour, you aren't going to get that back unless you make emergency lights dark grey or have three or four different primary colours of light.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If a (perfect) red light hits a red object, depending on its properties it may actually reflect light that is more saturated. Therefore the reflected light will be a more saturated red.

    If a (perfect) red light hits a (perfect) green object, it will not reflect colour because it is absorbed. Therefore appearing black or grey.

    The problem is that filtered light is not perfect, you will still get other frequencies getting through and mixing occurring and producing different frequencies of colour.

    Because the complexities of colour absorption, diffusion, reflection, etc can not be replicated by Spark, they need to be faked.

    Therefore having a variety of red hues in areas that have emergency lighting would make a difference to the overall appearance of the effect. Given artistic license, it will make the emergency lighting more dramatic and the scene less flat.

    It is similar to how listening to live music is different to recorded, because you have subtle harmonics that are cut out of the recording due to compression. They add to the overall sound, but you don't really notice them.

    Light physics in a scene is infinitely more complex then 'the light is red' therefore 'every reflected source is the same red'.
  • AltF4AltF4 Join Date: 2003-11-11 Member: 22587Members
    there is no ns1 map where you can hide in shadows as alien (especially since hackpack)
    no matter dark or bright place, just the hope the noobrine wont check this spot.
  • SkiddywinksSkiddywinks Join Date: 2011-01-12 Member: 77239Members
    edited February 2011
    I don't know why people bother bringing up NS1's lack of darkness as if it means NS2 has to be the same.

    Like has been mentioned, they have made the engine from scratch themselves, and implemented an awesome dynamic light engine, and ONLY dynamic light. It seems stupid and pointless unless they actually add some seriously dark areas.

    EDIT:
    <!--quoteo(post=1831905:date=Feb 13 2011, 01:10 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 13 2011, 01:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->::facepalm::
    he just re iterated my whole point of why i made this thread lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No offense, I think I just covered a few more points in more detail. I don't know why you bothered facepalming though, it's not like this is the first thread on the topic, or you are the first person raising the points.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    A multiplayer game should not rely on darkness having any impact on gameplay for many obvious reasons.

    That said, NS2 maps are already too dark.
  • SkiddywinksSkiddywinks Join Date: 2011-01-12 Member: 77239Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1831932:date=Feb 13 2011, 05:36 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Feb 13 2011, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A multiplayer game should not rely on darkness having any impact on gameplay for many obvious reasons.

    That said, NS2 maps are already too dark.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    What might these obvious reasons be? 'Cause I don't see them.

    As for maps already being too dark, wth are you on? Are your monitor settings right? You don't need to use the flashlight 99% of the time, how can this possibly be too dark?
  • Bad News BearBad News Bear Join Date: 2011-02-08 Member: 80944Members
    edited February 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1831934:date=Feb 13 2011, 05:39 PM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Feb 13 2011, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What might these obvious reasons be? 'Cause I don't see them.

    As for maps already being too dark, wth are you on? Are your monitor settings right? You don't need to use the flashlight 99% of the time, how can this possibly be too dark?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Exactly what you said is the best reason to not use darkness as part of gameplay. Whats too dark for him, is just right for you, is too bright for Dave from down the road. It's incredibly variable between hardware setups.
  • SkiddywinksSkiddywinks Join Date: 2011-01-12 Member: 77239Members
    edited February 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1831938:date=Feb 13 2011, 05:46 PM:name=Bad News Bear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bad News Bear @ Feb 13 2011, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly what you said is the best reason to not use darkness as part of gameplay. Whats too dark for him, is just right for you, is too bright for Dave from down the road. It's incredibly variable between hardware setups.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So the developers are restricted from doing something awesome and immersive because people can't set their monitors correctly? What a bull###### excuse! All it needs is one of those screens in the options that allows you to adjust gamma, brightness etc with several images and the instruction "Adjust the brightness until the far left image disappears and the middle image is difficult to see".

    As for the subjective argument that some people just don't like dark games, well, tough. I am assuming that what UWE mean to do is make the game darker, since it only makes sense given the work they have put in to the engine/dynamic lighting and giving us flashlights at all (sure, we had them in NS1, but that was a mod and so more or less came with them as standard. With NS2 they have clearly had to actually code them in on purpose, with it being a new engine and all).

    Of course, if I am wrong and that was all a waste of time on UWE's part, well, tough for me instead I guess.

    EDIT:
    Any more reasons? I have yet to hear a good one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If that is the best one that people can think of thought, then I find it a really poor reason.
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