I didn't know they were future based. Futuristic sure but I can't remember ever seeing anything about them being all future as in lasers pew pew pew. Heck, they're using projectiles and missiles still.
<!--quoteo(post=1832447:date=Feb 15 2011, 04:11 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Feb 15 2011, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heck, they're using projectiles and missiles still.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, and they can instantly transport matter across great distances with the ease of loading bread into a toaster, they can use microscopic robots to build large complex machines just as quickly and we can't forget inter galactic travel.
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
I had an idea: How about they use the rotating yellow warning light effect, as presently used only near the power node, at various locations around the maps that only enable when power is out. They already have the orange cone shaped light prop, and these flashing and rotating relatively bright lights would be much more distracting and visually interesting than static red lighting. Mapper control of the placement would ensure proper coverage and perhaps some interesting patterns for hallways or other things.
<!--quoteo(post=1831944:date=Feb 13 2011, 07:21 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Feb 13 2011, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think as has been suggested knocking out the power nodes should work as is - but after 4/5 minutes the lighting just completely shuts off on battery power. So Marines can't mess with their settings, and are forced to use flash lights in these areas making for a much more interesting game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS! A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!
The only way to ensure there is no gamma abuse in competitive situations is to do total pitch blackness, except for flashlights, etc. This means that aliens have to destroy the power node and hold the room until emergency lights run out. At the same time the marines have to push while they have emergency lights for that increased advantage.
There can be counters for assaulting a dark room as well, like a scanner sweep will light up all the aliens in that room on the HUD for 30seconds or so, evening the playing field for that initial push.
You have to assume when applying low, but non-zero lighting, that someone who has altered their monitor settings will be able to see in that lighting perfectly. Using this lights out idea will create atmosphere/tension, more definitively highlight who controls what area, and even out the competitive playing field.
One other idea is that the emergency lights could stay on forever after a power node goes not, however if some dynamic infestation reaches the destroyed power node, it shuts off the lights entirely. There are so many ways you can make use of the lighting to create more atmosphere and more mini-objectives and gameplay mechanics for both teams. Leaving it as it is now would be a shame.
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
edited February 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1832513:date=Feb 15 2011, 08:16 PM:name=NoEggs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NoEggs @ Feb 15 2011, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->THIS! A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!
The only way to ensure there is no gamma abuse in competitive situations is to do total pitch blackness, except for flashlights, etc. This means that aliens have to destroy the power node and hold the room until emergency lights run out. At the same time the marines have to push while they have emergency lights for that increased advantage.
There can be counters for assaulting a dark room as well, like a scanner sweep will light up all the aliens in that room on the HUD for 30seconds or so, evening the playing field for that initial push.
You have to assume when applying low, but non-zero lighting, that someone who has altered their monitor settings will be able to see in that lighting perfectly. Using this lights out idea will create atmosphere/tension, more definitively highlight who controls what area, and even out the competitive playing field.
One other idea is that the emergency lights could stay on forever after a power node goes not, however if some dynamic infestation reaches the destroyed power node, it shuts off the lights entirely. There are so many ways you can make use of the lighting to create more atmosphere and more mini-objectives and gameplay mechanics for both teams. Leaving it as it is now would be a shame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, total black as you are suggesting is NOT the answer. That is clipping data and harming all users. The way to solve the issue is to increase the dynamics such that if someone is adjusting their monitor then the bright stuff would then clip horribly and they would suffer. Penalization should happen only in cases where it is deserved, blanket clipping is just a bad idea.
edit- this of course applies if you mean real black out, if you mean simply to disable the majority of the red lighting to make the areas *darker* then that isn't so bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1832513:date=Feb 16 2011, 01:16 AM:name=NoEggs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NoEggs @ Feb 16 2011, 01:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->THIS! A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!
The only way to ensure there is no gamma abuse in competitive situations is to do total pitch blackness, except for flashlights, etc. This means that aliens have to destroy the power node and hold the room until emergency lights run out. At the same time the marines have to push while they have emergency lights for that increased advantage.
There can be counters for assaulting a dark room as well, like a scanner sweep will light up all the aliens in that room on the HUD for 30seconds or so, evening the playing field for that initial push.
You have to assume when applying low, but non-zero lighting, that someone who has altered their monitor settings will be able to see in that lighting perfectly. Using this lights out idea will create atmosphere/tension, more definitively highlight who controls what area, and even out the competitive playing field.
One other idea is that the emergency lights could stay on forever after a power node goes not, however if some dynamic infestation reaches the destroyed power node, it shuts off the lights entirely. There are so many ways you can make use of the lighting to create more atmosphere and more mini-objectives and gameplay mechanics for both teams. Leaving it as it is now would be a shame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In order to do that however you would also have to turn off fog, and all self illumination on textures in the room, and any lights that really shouldn't be turned off like say, fire lights, or lights from alien structures, or day lighting. You would also have to make the flashlight illumnate to full brightness within its radius and cut off instantly at the edge, as well as giving it a perfectly sharp falloff so it wouldn't gradually fade out at a distance, because otherwise you could substantially improve the flashlight by turning up the gamma to make it illuminate better at the edges of its range. You would also have to find some way of making it so that aliens don't benefit from gamma tweaks because they would have their own view modes and the marine lighting effects to see by.
Basically you'd have to entirely cripple the visual appeal of the game in order to make a situation where it's impossible to gain an advantage by messing with gamma in dark areas.
It isn't really a solution at all if you think about it.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1832553:date=Feb 15 2011, 09:00 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Feb 15 2011, 09:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically you'd have to entirely cripple the visual appeal of the game in order to make a situation where it's impossible to gain an advantage by messing with gamma in dark areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but we don't, remember? a few pages back screenshots were made as to the differences between low and high gamma settings in a dark room and there is no difference
<!--quoteo(post=1832258:date=Feb 14 2011, 10:55 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 14 2011, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My suggestion is to increase the contrast in lighting conditions: Mappers should remove <b>emergency lighting</b> from <b>some</b> of the corners, vents, and ceilings spaces, while maintaining the existing level of emergency lighting in most of the areas in each room. Hopefully, this will be a good middle ground for game balance. Marines will have the opportunity to check dark spaces for aliens, but at a slower and cautious pace. While the aliens will still have ample locations from which to ambush marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This.
I think once a powernode goes down the aliens need to have strong advantage in that room. That's the gameplay idea.
As nearly all off us agree, the current redlight is not doing this and twiliteblue's suggestion is exactly what I support. Hopefully the mappers are allowed control of what lights go off and which one's go red by adding a variable or separate light class for emergency lighting.
The important point in this suggestion is contrast. If the room has high contrast when node if off then gamma settings will not help all the while the aliens can use their special vision mode so the lighting contrast does not bother them.
Wild idea I've mentioned before is to give skulk the ability to auto cloak if they are in a dark enough area. This is simply a suggestion to counter the gamma argument. If the skulk sits in a dark corner then you just see dark. Turn up gamma then you just see grey. Maybe not cloak but if the game can detect when the skulk is in a dark enough area then give some sort of bonus maybe insta cloak given he has the ability acquired or something like the umbra effect... run wild!
What does clipping mean when talking about lighting? I saw that mentioned in earlier posts.
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1832563:date=Feb 16 2011, 01:37 AM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Feb 16 2011, 01:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What does clipping mean when talking about lighting? I saw that mentioned in earlier posts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It concerned a hypothetical post-processing "fix" that would do something like a nasty high-pass, blacking out the image because rather than have detail but have it dark some people want it totally gone.
<!--quoteo(post=1832563:date=Feb 15 2011, 10:37 PM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Feb 15 2011, 10:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1832258:date=Feb 14 2011, 06:55 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 14 2011, 06:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> My suggestion is to increase the contrast in lighting conditions: Mappers should remove <b>emergency lighting</b> from <b>some</b> of the corners, vents, and ceilings spaces, while maintaining the existing level of emergency lighting in most of the areas in each room. Hopefully, this will be a good middle ground for game balance. Marines will have the opportunity to check dark spaces for aliens, but at a slower and cautious pace. While the aliens will still have ample locations from which to ambush marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
I think once a powernode goes down the aliens need to have strong advantage in that room. That's the gameplay idea.
As nearly all off us agree, the current redlight is not doing this and twiliteblue's suggestion is exactly what I support. Hopefully the mappers are allowed control of what lights go off and which one's go red by adding a variable or separate light class for emergency lighting.
The important point in this suggestion is contrast. If the room has high contrast when node if off then gamma settings will not help all the while the aliens can use their special vision mode so the lighting contrast does not bother them. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. In short <ol type='1'><li>Complete darkness is bad. It makes it impossible for players to navigate.</li><li>We want lighting contrast and to give Aliens a distinct advantage in regions they control. So, the ability to hide in more regions.</li><li>Marines still need to be able to navigate and engage threats. Feeling completely helpless is a BAD game design. If this means forced use of infinite flashlights, so be it.</li><li>If it means forced reliance on a consumable resource (flares, limited energy flashlights, etc) this is BAD. You can use expendables as augmentation, but NEVER as the crux of gameplay for something as fundamental as navigation and being able to see your enemy.</li></ol>
somewhat related, but does anyone know if they plan on importing maps from ns1 once the game is released? i feel like they've answered that before, but i can't seem to find anything about it even with the search function.
I don't know about complete pitch black total darkness. You want a little light so marines can orientate themselves enough to navigate the environment. However, you can still have very, very little light and still allow aliens to use darkness to surprise attack marines. This false dichotomy between lights and no lights needs to stop. This could be accomplished by turning down the emergency lights a huge amount so they only light up a very small area around them, and then using small props like computer screens, buttons, and any other light emitting equipment to build environment and also allow marines a little bit of an idea of where they are and are going without allowing them any real vision. An example of well used props for guidance in darkness is the server room in Tram; the blue dots don't give off enough light to allow marines to see everything around them, but they do give off enough of a glow that marines can know where the servers are so they don't run into them.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1832701:date=Feb 16 2011, 05:36 PM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Feb 16 2011, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about complete pitch black total darkness. You want a little light so marines can orientate themselves enough to navigate the environment. However, you can still have very, very little light and still allow aliens to use darkness to surprise attack marines. This false dichotomy between lights and no lights needs to stop. This could be accomplished by turning down the emergency lights a huge amount so they only light up a very small area around them, and then using small props like computer screens, buttons, and any other light emitting equipment to build environment and also allow marines a little bit of an idea of where they are and are going without allowing them any real vision. An example of well used props for guidance in darkness is the server room in Tram; the blue dots don't give off enough light to allow marines to see everything around them, but they do give off enough of a glow that marines can know where the servers are so they don't run into them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok fine, but if the aliens have vision mode and the marines have a flash light.... what does it matter to what "Degree" or "brightness" lights are? they can battle it out in the light or dark currently. vision mode does give just a slight advantage imo.. but it should, as sneakiness is the aliens' strategy.
so if it doesnt matter really, and it wont be a game killer, why not give - as others have agreed with - purpose to taking out a power node / power grid by making it<i> Dark<b>ER</b></i>?
Comments
Yeah, and they can instantly transport matter across great distances with the ease of loading bread into a toaster, they can use microscopic robots to build large complex machines just as quickly and we can't forget inter galactic travel.
THIS! A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!
The only way to ensure there is no gamma abuse in competitive situations is to do total pitch blackness, except for flashlights, etc. This means that aliens have to destroy the power node and hold the room until emergency lights run out. At the same time the marines have to push while they have emergency lights for that increased advantage.
There can be counters for assaulting a dark room as well, like a scanner sweep will light up all the aliens in that room on the HUD for 30seconds or so, evening the playing field for that initial push.
You have to assume when applying low, but non-zero lighting, that someone who has altered their monitor settings will be able to see in that lighting perfectly. Using this lights out idea will create atmosphere/tension, more definitively highlight who controls what area, and even out the competitive playing field.
One other idea is that the emergency lights could stay on forever after a power node goes not, however if some dynamic infestation reaches the destroyed power node, it shuts off the lights entirely. There are so many ways you can make use of the lighting to create more atmosphere and more mini-objectives and gameplay mechanics for both teams. Leaving it as it is now would be a shame.
The only way to ensure there is no gamma abuse in competitive situations is to do total pitch blackness, except for flashlights, etc. This means that aliens have to destroy the power node and hold the room until emergency lights run out. At the same time the marines have to push while they have emergency lights for that increased advantage.
There can be counters for assaulting a dark room as well, like a scanner sweep will light up all the aliens in that room on the HUD for 30seconds or so, evening the playing field for that initial push.
You have to assume when applying low, but non-zero lighting, that someone who has altered their monitor settings will be able to see in that lighting perfectly. Using this lights out idea will create atmosphere/tension, more definitively highlight who controls what area, and even out the competitive playing field.
One other idea is that the emergency lights could stay on forever after a power node goes not, however if some dynamic infestation reaches the destroyed power node, it shuts off the lights entirely. There are so many ways you can make use of the lighting to create more atmosphere and more mini-objectives and gameplay mechanics for both teams. Leaving it as it is now would be a shame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, total black as you are suggesting is NOT the answer. That is clipping data and harming all users. The way to solve the issue is to increase the dynamics such that if someone is adjusting their monitor then the bright stuff would then clip horribly and they would suffer. Penalization should happen only in cases where it is deserved, blanket clipping is just a bad idea.
edit- this of course applies if you mean real black out, if you mean simply to disable the majority of the red lighting to make the areas *darker* then that isn't so bad.
The only way to ensure there is no gamma abuse in competitive situations is to do total pitch blackness, except for flashlights, etc. This means that aliens have to destroy the power node and hold the room until emergency lights run out. At the same time the marines have to push while they have emergency lights for that increased advantage.
There can be counters for assaulting a dark room as well, like a scanner sweep will light up all the aliens in that room on the HUD for 30seconds or so, evening the playing field for that initial push.
You have to assume when applying low, but non-zero lighting, that someone who has altered their monitor settings will be able to see in that lighting perfectly. Using this lights out idea will create atmosphere/tension, more definitively highlight who controls what area, and even out the competitive playing field.
One other idea is that the emergency lights could stay on forever after a power node goes not, however if some dynamic infestation reaches the destroyed power node, it shuts off the lights entirely. There are so many ways you can make use of the lighting to create more atmosphere and more mini-objectives and gameplay mechanics for both teams. Leaving it as it is now would be a shame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In order to do that however you would also have to turn off fog, and all self illumination on textures in the room, and any lights that really shouldn't be turned off like say, fire lights, or lights from alien structures, or day lighting. You would also have to make the flashlight illumnate to full brightness within its radius and cut off instantly at the edge, as well as giving it a perfectly sharp falloff so it wouldn't gradually fade out at a distance, because otherwise you could substantially improve the flashlight by turning up the gamma to make it illuminate better at the edges of its range. You would also have to find some way of making it so that aliens don't benefit from gamma tweaks because they would have their own view modes and the marine lighting effects to see by.
Basically you'd have to entirely cripple the visual appeal of the game in order to make a situation where it's impossible to gain an advantage by messing with gamma in dark areas.
It isn't really a solution at all if you think about it.
but we don't, remember? a few pages back screenshots were made as to the differences between low and high gamma settings in a dark room and there is no difference
Hopefully, this will be a good middle ground for game balance. Marines will have the opportunity to check dark spaces for aliens, but at a slower and cautious pace. While the aliens will still have ample locations from which to ambush marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This.
I think once a powernode goes down the aliens need to have strong advantage in that room. That's the gameplay idea.
As nearly all off us agree, the current redlight is not doing this and twiliteblue's suggestion is exactly what I support. Hopefully the mappers are allowed control of what lights go off and which one's go red by adding a variable or separate light class for emergency lighting.
The important point in this suggestion is contrast. If the room has high contrast when node if off then gamma settings will not help all the while the aliens can use their special vision mode so the lighting contrast does not bother them.
Wild idea I've mentioned before is to give skulk the ability to auto cloak if they are in a dark enough area. This is simply a suggestion to counter the gamma argument. If the skulk sits in a dark corner then you just see dark. Turn up gamma then you just see grey. Maybe not cloak but if the game can detect when the skulk is in a dark enough area then give some sort of bonus maybe insta cloak given he has the ability acquired or something like the umbra effect... run wild!
What does clipping mean when talking about lighting? I saw that mentioned in earlier posts.
It concerned a hypothetical post-processing "fix" that would do something like a nasty high-pass, blacking out the image because rather than have detail but have it dark some people want it totally gone.
Marine areas should be well lit. Because aliens know the marines will tear them a new one in the open.
Maybe the unclaimed areas could have the emergency lights.
My suggestion is to increase the contrast in lighting conditions: Mappers should remove <b>emergency lighting</b> from <b>some</b> of the corners, vents, and ceilings spaces, while maintaining the existing level of emergency lighting in most of the areas in each room.
Hopefully, this will be a good middle ground for game balance. Marines will have the opportunity to check dark spaces for aliens, but at a slower and cautious pace. While the aliens will still have ample locations from which to ambush marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
I think once a powernode goes down the aliens need to have strong advantage in that room. That's the gameplay idea.
As nearly all off us agree, the current redlight is not doing this and twiliteblue's suggestion is exactly what I support. Hopefully the mappers are allowed control of what lights go off and which one's go red by adding a variable or separate light class for emergency lighting.
The important point in this suggestion is contrast. If the room has high contrast when node if off then gamma settings will not help all the while the aliens can use their special vision mode so the lighting contrast does not bother them.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. In short
<ol type='1'><li>Complete darkness is bad. It makes it impossible for players to navigate.</li><li>We want lighting contrast and to give Aliens a distinct advantage in regions they control. So, the ability to hide in more regions.</li><li>Marines still need to be able to navigate and engage threats. Feeling completely helpless is a BAD game design. If this means forced use of infinite flashlights, so be it.</li><li>If it means forced reliance on a consumable resource (flares, limited energy flashlights, etc) this is BAD. You can use expendables as augmentation, but NEVER as the crux of gameplay for something as fundamental as navigation and being able to see your enemy.</li></ol>
ok fine, but if the aliens have vision mode and the marines have a flash light.... what does it matter to what "Degree" or "brightness" lights are? they can battle it out in the light or dark currently. vision mode does give just a slight advantage imo.. but it should, as sneakiness is the aliens' strategy.
so if it doesnt matter really, and it wont be a game killer, why not give - as others have agreed with - purpose to taking out a power node / power grid by making it<i> Dark<b>ER</b></i>?