korvoJoin Date: 2009-11-19Member: 69427Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1831475:date=Feb 11 2011, 08:31 PM:name=Paul-Hewson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Paul-Hewson @ Feb 11 2011, 08:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It feels like we are in a robotic lifeform that is scanning all the environment near it every second !<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. The bright green and the clear edges feels very clean and technical.
I love the effect too, but - as it is - it's not fitting with my picture of an organic (alien-style) night vision at the moment. Looks like a great idea if you want to make a marines-scan visible or things like that - it's definitly a great effect, but not for an alien-technology - or at least not for night-vision...
Edit: <!--quoteo(post=1831479:date=Feb 11 2011, 08:45 PM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Feb 11 2011, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->read again my post. I was speaking of a "observatory scan" effect, not an alien one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think he is refering - like me - to the news, not to your post.
Do not allow visual appeal to override functionality.
Let us remember that natural selection is, of course, the driving force behind evolution. Life adapting to its environment.
The entire purpose of an alternative vision mode would be maximization of important information to the organism. What wavelengths has the organism adapted to perceive in a certain way, to both distinguish it from other classes of important information, and to minimize unimportant information?
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Any visual effect that does not correlate to actual information is effectively an optical illusion that adds noise to the perception and would be selected against in nature.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The main goals of an alternative vision mode should be: <ul><li>Maximize important information</li><li>Minimize unimportant information</li><li>Distinguish classes of important information</li></ul> Classes of important information include: <ul><li>Allies (pack)</li><li>Enemies (prey)</li><li>Obstacles</li><li>Relative brightness, for example to highlight good ambush locations</li><li>Environmental hazards</li></ul> Important information classes can be distinguished by: <ol type='1'><li>Brightness to indicate priority</li><li>Flashing, used sparingly, to indicate urgency</li><li>Color to distinguish classes of information</li></ol> Unimportant information includes: <ol type='1'><li>Walls</li><li>Floors</li><li>Ceilings</li><li>Static objects</li></ol> Unimportant information should blend in to the background and not distract from important information.
<!--quoteo(post=1831485:date=Feb 11 2011, 03:57 PM:name=hyperrift)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hyperrift @ Feb 11 2011, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unimportant information includes: <ol type='1'><li>Walls</li><li>Floors</li><li>Ceilings</li><li>Static objects</li></ol> Unimportant information should blend in to the background and not distract from important information.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not entirely true, since skulks often USE walls/ceilings/static objects to maneuver. It's fine if these things blend into the background a little more than the "important" info, but skulks need to be aware of their environment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please give the Marines the ability to buy Thermal Vision Goggles!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only way I would be ok with this is if DI gave off massive heat signatures making Thermal Vision pretty much useless in infested areas so aliens still have the advantage of ambush and attack, while supported by DI generating gorges.
<!--quoteo(post=1831486:date=Feb 11 2011, 09:02 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Feb 11 2011, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is not entirely true, since skulks often USE walls/ceilings/static objects to maneuver. It's fine if these things blend into the background a little more than the "important" info, but skulks need to be aware of their environment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not advocating for them to be pure black rgb(0,0,0), merely for them to have a much lower priority. Some modes in the video put an excessive amount of visual flair on those items.
<!--quoteo(post=1831475:date=Feb 11 2011, 08:31 PM:name=Paul-Hewson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Paul-Hewson @ Feb 11 2011, 08:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really hate it. It feels like we are in a robotic lifeform that is scanning all the environment near it every second ! That's not how i would see an alien "night" vision.
Alien should easily locate organic lifeform (so all their buildings+marines) with night vision and all the environment that isn't organic turning into another static color not too bright/not too dark that helps him find the path to its target without running into a walls/crates/obstacles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. It looks like a sound based scanner, the way bats and dolphins do it. Does it need some tweaking to look more organic? Sure. But it's the right direction imo.
Conceptual problem with "sonar": Any sound wave that was used for detection would be easily detectable by marines, thus giving away the alien's position.
If used with purely line of sight feedback, it is not worth the trade off of being detected.
If it provided some sort of degrading x-ray vision, like an extremely limited x-ray, then it might be worth the risk of being detected. Example from that one daredevil movie: (only shot I could find) <a href="http://www.awn.com/files/imagepicker/1/houdini01_daredevil_shadoww.jpg" target="_blank">Example of echo-location vision</a>
That could arguably be a gameplay balance-point, with some sort of Marine equipment to detect alien echo-location.
Anyway, point being that if it is just LOS, sonar is dumb and just visual flair.
<!--quoteo(post=1831368:date=Feb 11 2011, 06:40 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Feb 11 2011, 06:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sonar has nothing to do with seeing sound<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sonar by definition produces a mental map of the surrounding area via sound. Sight does the exact same thing except with photons and the sun sends out the light waves to be reflected back into our eyes for us.
Sonar is only seeing sound.
But com'on! This is sci-fi! Seeing sounds is like, awesome! It just needs to follow the rule of cool.
<!--quoteo(post=1831530:date=Feb 12 2011, 07:43 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Feb 12 2011, 07:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sonar by definition produces a mental map of the surrounding area via sound. Sight does the exact same thing except with photons and the sun sends out the light waves to be reflected back into our eyes for us.
Sonar is only seeing sound.
But com'on! This is sci-fi! Seeing sounds is like, awesome! It just needs to follow the rule of cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112699&view=findpost&p=1831380" target="_blank">indeed, but ive already tried to explain that earlier :p</a>
Agree with this. The scan ability should be tweaked to be a continual lasting repetitive scan that works on a pulse system like the above example, instead of the single ns1 ping scan. So marines find their way into a dark infested room, ask for a scan, the commander starts a scan, it pulses outlining everything for a few moments, it pulses again outlining everything for a few moments, it pulses again outline everything. This would be sick and hella creepy. The balance would be that it drains energy from the observatory while it is active.
Love the idea of a sonar type thing, cool way of seeing in the dark, the ability would trigger a sweep and a sound.
If the sweep also somehow revealed rines and/or mechanical buildings.
Imagine going into a dark room, no idea if there are any aliens nearby, go a little further, start hearing alien 'pings' and perhaps get a little nervous. Hearing more and more 'pings' and deciding to GTFO.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien dark vision effect - delivered
what was the final vision selected?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's still beta. It will probably be heavily tweaked from feedback. It can still be adjusted even after release. probably just trying to get a playable version in for the next patch.
<!--quoteo(post=1831513:date=Feb 11 2011, 08:52 PM:name=hyperrift)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hyperrift @ Feb 11 2011, 08:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any sound wave that was used for detection would be easily detectable by marines, thus giving away the alien's position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bats?
I'm no expert on the subject, don't get me wrong, but I always thought we could not pick up their similar navigation methods without the aid of technology. Hardly "easily" detectable. Sure, doable (which raises interesting possibilities in terms of game mechanics), but not easy.
that awesome green scan effect, could be used for aliens vision in the dark, that just could see the human´s body, when the sweep pass by an enemy´s body, it will balance the game when human´s don´t have any vision in the dark (just a flashlight) and aliens will have just a sweep sense to guide them
<!--quoteo(post=1831504:date=Feb 11 2011, 09:28 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Feb 11 2011, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it need some tweaking to look more organic? Sure. But it's the right direction imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This.
<!--quoteo(post=1831530:date=Feb 11 2011, 10:43 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Feb 11 2011, 10:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But com'on! This is sci-fi! Seeing sounds is like, awesome! It just needs to follow the rule of cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And this.
Come on people, what you saw on the video was just a test, it does not show what you're going to see in the final, seeing how the game has gone so far, I think UWE know what they want. They have great artists, they probably know how to make it cool better than most of us. It's good to give feedback, but try to look further than just what you see in a fast-coded test.
The warm red effect at the very beginning of the video looks the best. I think it is very fitting for the aliens. And I don't think there needs to be a trade off. This mode shouldn't even need to be turned on or off. It just slowly fades in and out depending on the light in the room. I think this encourages aliens to cut power sources wherever and whenever possible because it would give them an advantage in combat.
The marines could buy night vision upgrades to see in the dark. This would be blue/green like later in the video. But the flashing/moving lights are too distracting. Something like a sonar sweep that the commander could trigger for an area would be useful though. But I think aliens should always have an inherent advantage in the dark, and marines in the light. This makes power nodes more valuable and also makes running into dark rooms scarier (in a fun way). I can't tell you how many times I almost crapped my pants playing the original AVP in the dark.
Personally, I think it would be really cool if you made it pulse on at first, then fade off. Right now the pulsing off looks kind of abrupt and weird when it goes through all the geometry.
Addmitedly I have not read the entire thread here but I did have an idea....
I know that certain animals have a heat like vision, which I could see working well in this senario.
Pit Vipers have organs that somehow collect heat and translate it to an infrared type vison. This could be used to explain/brain storm this new type of Alien Vision.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->[b]"[color="#FF8C00"]These loreal pits are the external openings to a pair of extremely sensitive infrared detecting organs, which in effect give the snakes a sixth sense that helps them to find and perhaps even judge the size of the small warm-blooded prey on which they feed."[b]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Quote: Wikipedia Source: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_vipers" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_vipers</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Holy moley the new alien vision mode is in and it looks AMAZING. Can't wait to release it to you guys on Tuesday! (http://dld.bz/MpHD) #fb<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
those view modes look super badass. I'm a fan. hopefully, the 'trade-off' isn't TOO bad... i want to still be able to admire the prettiness of the view effects.
also, don't you feel kinda like traitors to your own company? you all made Decoda, and yet you're using Notepad++. Something seems wrong about that (but oh so right, because NP++ is so freaking awesome)
P.S - the sonar effect after 6:00 is pretty much amazing. I am in love
<!--quoteo(post=1831513:date=Feb 12 2011, 06:52 AM:name=hyperrift)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hyperrift @ Feb 12 2011, 06:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Conceptual problem with "sonar": Any sound wave that was used for detection would be easily detectable by marines, thus giving away the alien's position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You can use that to your advantage. One skulk screams loudly from one corner of the room and runs away. 5 of his buddies sneak in from the opposite side and tear into all those tasty and exposed marine backs.
Promoting team play via intentional diversionary tactics sounds like it could be some fun.
Comments
Anyway, as the news title say they are thinking of "alien vision" in their test and not the observatory.
They are on the opposite way as what aliens represent, the organic "mother nature" life.
I agree. The bright green and the clear edges feels very clean and technical.
I love the effect too, but - as it is - it's not fitting with my picture of an organic (alien-style) night vision at the moment.
Looks like a great idea if you want to make a marines-scan visible or things like that - it's definitly a great effect, but not for an alien-technology - or at least not for night-vision...
Edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1831479:date=Feb 11 2011, 08:45 PM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Feb 11 2011, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->read again my post.
I was speaking of a "observatory scan" effect, not an alien one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he is refering - like me - to the news, not to your post.
Let us remember that natural selection is, of course, the driving force behind evolution. Life adapting to its environment.
The entire purpose of an alternative vision mode would be maximization of important information to the organism. What wavelengths has the organism adapted to perceive in a certain way, to both distinguish it from other classes of important information, and to minimize unimportant information?
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Any visual effect that does not correlate to actual information is effectively an optical illusion that adds noise to the perception and would be selected against in nature.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The main goals of an alternative vision mode should be:
<ul><li>Maximize important information</li><li>Minimize unimportant information</li><li>Distinguish classes of important information</li></ul>
Classes of important information include:
<ul><li>Allies (pack)</li><li>Enemies (prey)</li><li>Obstacles</li><li>Relative brightness, for example to highlight good ambush locations</li><li>Environmental hazards</li></ul>
Important information classes can be distinguished by:
<ol type='1'><li>Brightness to indicate priority</li><li>Flashing, used sparingly, to indicate urgency</li><li>Color to distinguish classes of information</li></ol>
Unimportant information includes:
<ol type='1'><li>Walls</li><li>Floors</li><li>Ceilings</li><li>Static objects</li></ol>
Unimportant information should blend in to the background and not distract from important information.
<ol type='1'><li>Walls</li><li>Floors</li><li>Ceilings</li><li>Static objects</li></ol>
Unimportant information should blend in to the background and not distract from important information.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not entirely true, since skulks often USE walls/ceilings/static objects to maneuver. It's fine if these things blend into the background a little more than the "important" info, but skulks need to be aware of their environment.
The only way I would be ok with this is if DI gave off massive heat signatures making Thermal Vision pretty much useless in infested areas so aliens still have the advantage of ambush and attack, while supported by DI generating gorges.
I'm not advocating for them to be pure black rgb(0,0,0), merely for them to have a much lower priority. Some modes in the video put an excessive amount of visual flair on those items.
Alien should easily locate organic lifeform (so all their buildings+marines) with night vision and all the environment that isn't organic turning into another static color not too bright/not too dark that helps him find the path to its target without running into a walls/crates/obstacles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. It looks like a sound based scanner, the way bats and dolphins do it. Does it need some tweaking to look more organic? Sure. But it's the right direction imo.
Think of the motion tracker in the film Aliens, but line of sight only.
The lights go out and it is pitch black...
Pulse... corridor outline, pulse... corridor outline, pulse... corridor outline, pulse... corridor and fade outline, pulse... corridor outline,...
If that doesn't cause panic, what will?
Ok, an Onos outline, but you get the idea!
Any sound wave that was used for detection would be easily detectable by marines, thus giving away the alien's position.
If used with purely line of sight feedback, it is not worth the trade off of being detected.
If it provided some sort of degrading x-ray vision, like an extremely limited x-ray, then it might be worth the risk of being detected.
Example from that one daredevil movie: (only shot I could find) <a href="http://www.awn.com/files/imagepicker/1/houdini01_daredevil_shadoww.jpg" target="_blank">Example of echo-location vision</a>
That could arguably be a gameplay balance-point, with some sort of Marine equipment to detect alien echo-location.
Anyway, point being that if it is just LOS, sonar is dumb and just visual flair.
Sonar by definition produces a mental map of the surrounding area via sound. Sight does the exact same thing except with photons and the sun sends out the light waves to be reflected back into our eyes for us.
Sonar is only seeing sound.
But com'on! This is sci-fi! Seeing sounds is like, awesome! It just needs to follow the rule of cool.
Sonar is only seeing sound.
But com'on! This is sci-fi! Seeing sounds is like, awesome! It just needs to follow the rule of cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112699&view=findpost&p=1831380" target="_blank">indeed, but ive already tried to explain that earlier :p</a>
Think of the motion tracker in the film Aliens, but line of sight only.
The lights go out and it is pitch black...
Pulse... corridor outline, pulse... corridor outline, pulse... corridor outline, pulse... corridor and fade outline, pulse... corridor outline,...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->we
Agree with this. The scan ability should be tweaked to be a continual lasting repetitive scan that works on a pulse system like the above example, instead of the single ns1 ping scan. So marines find their way into a dark infested room, ask for a scan, the commander starts a scan, it pulses outlining everything for a few moments, it pulses again outlining everything for a few moments, it pulses again outline everything. This would be sick and hella creepy. The balance would be that it drains energy from the observatory while it is active.
If the sweep also somehow revealed rines and/or mechanical buildings.
Imagine going into a dark room, no idea if there are any aliens nearby, go a little further, start hearing alien 'pings' and perhaps get a little nervous. Hearing more and more 'pings' and deciding to GTFO.
All in all very cool ideas.
what was the final vision selected?
what was the final vision selected?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's still beta. It will probably be heavily tweaked from feedback. It can still be adjusted even after release. probably just trying to get a playable version in for the next patch.
Bats?
I'm no expert on the subject, don't get me wrong, but I always thought we could not pick up their similar navigation methods without the aid of technology. Hardly "easily" detectable. Sure, doable (which raises interesting possibilities in terms of game mechanics), but not easy.
This.
<!--quoteo(post=1831530:date=Feb 11 2011, 10:43 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Feb 11 2011, 10:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But com'on! This is sci-fi! Seeing sounds is like, awesome! It just needs to follow the rule of cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this.
Come on people, what you saw on the video was just a test, it does not show what you're going to see in the final, seeing how the game has gone so far, I think UWE know what they want. They have great artists, they probably know how to make it cool better than most of us. It's good to give feedback, but try to look further than just what you see in a fast-coded test.
The marines could buy night vision upgrades to see in the dark. This would be blue/green like later in the video. But the flashing/moving lights are too distracting. Something like a sonar sweep that the commander could trigger for an area would be useful though. But I think aliens should always have an inherent advantage in the dark, and marines in the light. This makes power nodes more valuable and also makes running into dark rooms scarier (in a fun way). I can't tell you how many times I almost crapped my pants playing the original AVP in the dark.
Personally, I think it would be really cool if you made it pulse on at first, then fade off. Right now the pulsing off looks kind of abrupt and weird when it goes through all the geometry.
It's still awesome, though.
"BTW, keep the language clean." -lol
I know that certain animals have a heat like vision, which I could see working well in this senario.
Pit Vipers have organs that somehow collect heat and translate it to an infrared type vison. This could be used to explain/brain storm this new type of Alien Vision.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->[b]"[color="#FF8C00"]These loreal pits are the external openings to a pair of extremely sensitive infrared detecting organs, which in effect give the snakes a sixth sense that helps them to find and perhaps even judge the size of the small warm-blooded prey on which they feed."[b]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Quote: Wikipedia
Source: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_vipers" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_vipers</a>
Once Again, Awesome Work!!!!
Next Tuesday?
HELL YEA.
also, don't you feel kinda like traitors to your own company? you all made Decoda, and yet you're using Notepad++. Something seems wrong about that (but oh so right, because NP++ is so freaking awesome)
P.S - the sonar effect after 6:00 is pretty much amazing. I am in love
Any sound wave that was used for detection would be easily detectable by marines, thus giving away the alien's position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You can use that to your advantage. One skulk screams loudly from one corner of the room and runs away. 5 of his buddies sneak in from the opposite side and tear into all those tasty and exposed marine backs.
Promoting team play via intentional diversionary tactics sounds like it could be some fun.