<!--quoteo(post=1811498:date=Nov 28 2010, 06:00 PM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Nov 28 2010, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If something can remove parasite at all, it should be something rarely available on the field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> -> Parasite Removal Kit please
I thought the whole point of parasite is that it offers reliable and consistent information that you can use in decisionmaking, not some random little boon that can help a bit if you get lucky. Basically I feel that parasite becomes too unreliable to have any decisionmaking depth value in it.
Parasite is also notably one of the most valuable tools for giving skulk late game value. Often it's almost better to have 3 fades, lerk and a skulk than 4 fades and lerk, since the parasite gives lifeforms so much more survivability. Isn't that exactly what the devs have been looking for?
The benefit I see in removable parasite is that it emphasizes alien comm abillity to see the big picture effectively and gives the whole role much needed value. However, that doesn't really justify leaving parasite at an insignificant state. I don't think there's any point in keeping a shadow of the former ability if the ability has lost all it's meaning. I feel you either go big with the parasite or don't have it in the game at all. If para can't be exist as a powerful ability, I'd rather have it replaced by something completely different and innovative.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
I have a proposal.
As i mentioned before, medpack spamming is not fun. So i think giving a medpack should be a "ability" of a marine, like stim in SC2.
Now, another ability, "cure parasite" could be added, that costs res, and makes the marine loose health. Or just cost res, perhaps it's not that fun for the marine if he suddenly loses health.
<!--quoteo(post=1811367:date=Nov 28 2010, 11:14 AM:name=thecowsaysmoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thecowsaysmoo @ Nov 28 2010, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've always hated motion tracking(map hacks) and parasite, as it kills the early game. No more reason to climb on walls or hide in corners as a skulk, CAUSE THEY ###### KNOW YOUR THERE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Motion Tracking early game? wat?
To stay on topic though, on the realism side of things I thought it was a bit retarded that the marines didn't have something in their arsenal to remove parasites (such as simply cutting the damn thing out with their knife) but gameplay wise I really like it. Parasiting is definitely not maphacks, with decent marine play it doesn't matter if the opposite team know where you are, you should be able to defend yourself (against skulks anyway).
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.. will the ongoing cost of dropping medpacks to be worth curing parasites over and over when, clearly, the aliens know where the marines are anyway? (Given one of them is parasiting the squad which is getting healed)
Parasite removal kit? How much micromanaging do you want exactly? What is the difference between removal kit and a med kit? Nothing but a different model.
I dont know how much micromanaging i want because i never play comm :P But if UWE will make the Parasite removable it should at least hurt the marine team enough to make the removal rare. So it would rather be applied on HAs and JPs but at least not on common marines. It could be done with a special Parasite removal kit, that would cost ...say, 3 times as much as a medkit. But it's even better if the Para isn't removable at all. /my 2ct
Would make an awesome com / player dynamic if only the com had motion tracking. Also gives some strategic reason for multiple coms and sacrificing the man on the field.. so to speak.
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
hm. I like the idea of marines traveling all the way back to the armory to remove it there, but fixing it in the field seems like it would make it a little too easy. We'll have to see how it goes, it could work just fine.
oh jesus, that first post was Priceless! didn't have such a good laugh in a long time! don't get me wrong, it wasn't a bad laugh, infact, I am completely on the side of the thread starter! I laughed because it was true, and how the post was written. you can see that it really means something to him/her judging on the length.
+1 on taking out Parasite heal and Motion tracking.
parasite is a tactical tool to organise yourself and tell the team that there are enemies troops there, a task a constant marine commander does, but Aliens substituted with parasite. to be fair, I don't know if Parasite should stay in or not. I remain neutral in that regard. it only affects 1 player and a brave alien has to "tag" him and risk himself.
Motiontracking was just bad. really bad. read how bad in the first post. I can not see a single redeeming thing on it that merits its Reimplementation. Marines got Scan, and Scan is a good, balanced and useful thing. to compensate for the Lack of MT you can lower the cost to deploy it, or even make it free with a cool down time.
How about making MT a timered ability? Something like 20 seconds of MT with a 3 minute cooldown. Possibly with some visual/sound alerting the alien team that it's on.
How map hacking gets into NS2, I have no idea. It's a terrible, terrible idea which needs to axed now, now, now.
Unknown Worlds Entertainment, I love you. You get my support and I cut you slack because I know you listen to the community and are making a great game many people will spend years mastering. Map hacking is not and cannot be good in RTS games. It is simply much too information for any team to possess. And no, both teams getting map hacking doesn't fix the issue.
If the map hacking was limited (false signatures/missing signatures, high refresh time (10 seconds minimum), only works in powered areas), it <i>might</i> not suck terribly from a fundamental perspective. Zero latency perfectly accurate map wide map hacks is just map hacks. Pure and simple.
If map hacking gets into NS2, I'll probably be rendered speechless for a good 10 seconds and just have to put it out of my mind for a day. I don't know what the eventual reaction post will look like, but it won't be pretty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[a] It's not a hack if it's a feature, by definition. [b] If it's such a grievance, then parasite should be nixed too.
man, MT never helped me much, just cluttered up my screen, and I STILL died even when I knew something was there. I don't care if it stays in and honestly don't feel like it's a deciding game factor at all.
On a side note, I thought the new AvP game did Motion tracking very well. Rest of the game blew, but the motion tracking was pretty awesome.....
I do dislike the motion tracking in NS1, as even if you are not moving you cannot rely on whether the marine knows exactly where you stopped and can basically wall hack.
My opinion is, lets try it. This is the beta after all, and it may or may not be good for the game... and we can all moan/support it then, as I don't think this one can be argued out easily.
What is with everyone bashing motion tracking? It's not easy to get, by the time marines are able to research motion tracking the aliens should be just as far along and easily be able to counter it with higher lifeforms and chamber upgrades. They should certainly have a second hive as well, which will also of course unlock tier 2 abilities.
You're either bads or you're talking about combat. Which would make you a bad either way.
<!--quoteo(post=1811646:date=Nov 29 2010, 12:25 AM:name=BAshh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BAshh @ Nov 29 2010, 12:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[a] It's not a hack if it's a feature, by definition. [b] If it's such a grievance, then parasite should be nixed too.
man, MT never helped me much, just cluttered up my screen, and I STILL died even when I knew something was there. I don't care if it stays in and honestly don't feel like it's a deciding game factor at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey, parasite can be removed too for all I care. If that's the cost of map hacking not being in NS2, I'd gladly pay.
If MT didn't help you much, you didn't pay enough attention to the minimap. It helps a lot. Let me explain.
With very little attention, you know if skulks are coming from front or behind. This is... alright. Not too crazy for the rest of the game to be balanced around.
With devotion to the mini map, you must walk into a cloaked or hiding alien for anything to catch you by surprise. This is kinda ######. If nothing can sneak up behind you (a skulk with celerity does not walk faster than a marine runs and that's the fastest walking alien class), the tension, mystery, and thus horror of NS2 is lost by a lot. No need to look over your shoulder every five seconds. I don't like this.
You also know all troop movement of the enemy side with zero latency map wide zero error map hacking. This is retarded and a deal breaker. It reduces risk of base rush to practically zero because no alien team on the average public server can successfully walk all the way to marine start from one of their hives. The risk is not zero, but it's so close to zero it might as well be zero. Alien map hacking (scent of fear or just having sensory chambers) is unbeatable by walking. Um... No.
Side Note: Yes, I know map hacking isn't map hacking if its a feature implemented by the developers. You're absolutely correct on that point. I just like calling it map hacking because in many RTS games, benefiting from NS1's motion tracking would get your account suspended or banned. It's more controversial and galvanizing than using the correct term. I really care about NS2 not being a terrible game, so I'm going to use a provocative word so the issue sounds important to people reading ("Wait, there was something retarded in NS1?!"), making them more likely to form opinions (either agreeing or disagreeing) and voice those opinions. Then I destroy the opposing arguments because they're wrong and there're more people who agree with me posting, thus increasing the chance Unknown Worlds Entertainment doesn't put Motion Tracking or Scent of Fear in NS2.
NS1's motion tracking is just too powerful. So is NS1's scent of fear (probably more so because aliens benefit much more from knowing enemy locations because of their higher movement speeds and access to vents as perfect escape paths). I know my rate of death dropped significantly when I had alien map hacking and was just biting Resource Towers (a very viable alternative to killing marines). The risks I had to take were much less.
Again I'd like to stress that NS2 and Unknown Worlds Entertainment are awesome. NS1 was a free mod, a labor of love with its understandable imperfections. I cannot stress how awesome Natural Selection as a franchise is, and how awesome and talented its developers and designers are. Now that a sequel is being made, improvements can be added. The same thing happened in the transition from SC1 and SC2. Macromanaging and micromanaging became much easier. Grognards whined because the "skill requirement" was lessened (and by lessened, I mean "Made less insane"), but they eventually came to their senses (We don't SC2's UI difficulty to be a "feature"). SC2 is slated to be the longest played, most well received, <i>most socially important</i> video game we have. So if Unknown Worlds Entertainment can learn from Blizzard and keep making awesome games gamers love, all the better.
I do not wish to nitpick, but consider that SC2 also has "map hacking", to some extent (sensor towers). Coupled with scans, a Terran player can get the information he wants, when he wants. Anyone facing a Terran opponent is aware of that and should adapt his play consequently. I view MT, SoF and Parasite similarly: once you know they are in play, you act accordingly, just like your example about RT munching. I agree MT it's one hell of an upgrade and it could maybe use a few downsides to make it a little more complex, like limiting it to non-DI zones or something, but even then, it's not like you can't use the opponent's upgrade to your advantage (force an all-out retreat/beacon, bait as a parasited marine, etc.)
edit: I see medpacks removing parasites somehow like spending a scan to take out an observer (SC), you trade income for "secrecy". Sure the comparison isn't the best, but I'm sure you get it.
I don't know why I'm raging so hard about this, but, do you play RTS at all yourbonesakin? It's about countering your enemies strategy. Right? k, now, going by your logic, if scent of fear (or just having SC's spotted around the map) is so OP as you say MT is, then they cancel each other out and there's no problem.
If the marines have MT and the aliens are too retarded to do anything about it or vice versa then they don't deserve to win anyway.
PS:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It reduces risk of base rush to practically zero because no alien team on the average public server can successfully walk all the way to marine start from one of their hives<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This made me lol. Show me one time where the "average public server alien team" has executed a coordinated base rush with or without MT and I will send you a lollipop. Make that two. The only time this type of thing happens is in competitive NS (long dead, unfortunately). Your point is still invalid though, given at this level of play teams actually know how to play the game instead of whinging about MT or SoF.
<!--quoteo(post=1811664:date=Nov 29 2010, 04:15 PM:name=Corporal_Fortier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corporal_Fortier @ Nov 29 2010, 04:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->once you know they are in play, you act accordingly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/thread
This is exactly right. This is RTS. If you don't like RTS type play you shouldn't be playing NS/NS2.
Sure, MT means you can't walk around the map as a lone skulk anymore but tough luck. Counter it with your own abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1811665:date=Nov 29 2010, 08:18 AM:name=xposed-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xposed- @ Nov 29 2010, 08:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the marines have MT and the aliens are too retarded to do anything about it or vice versa then they don't deserve to win anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't do anything about it, other than 'never move' which makes winning quite difficult.
That's the point. It'd be like playing an RTS without the fog of war.
<!--quoteo(post=1811674:date=Nov 29 2010, 04:51 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 29 2010, 04:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't do anything about it, other than 'never move' which makes winning quite difficult.
That's the point. It'd be like playing an RTS without the fog of war.
Kinda stupid in other words.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sure you can. base rush and kill the obs. silence can still trip up marines even if they have MT - it wasn't a real time wallhack so you could still abuse the update delay.
<!--quoteo(post=1811676:date=Nov 29 2010, 08:53 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 29 2010, 08:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sure you can. base rush and kill the obs. silence can still trip up marines even if they have MT - it wasn't a real time wallhack so you could still abuse the update delay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's kinda like saying 'the way to beat the wallhacks is to win before they happen'.
If you're in a position to take out the marine base even when they know you're coming why aren't you already doing it?
The fundamental point is that motion tracking gives the marines essentially perfect knowledge. They show where all members of the team whose only strength is mobility are at all times. Unless you plan to spend all your time in hives or not moving, you will reveal yourself, and once you do the marines know where you are. The only things they don't know is exactly what class you are, which is kind of irrelevant because marines always bring their best weapons and gear anyway, and your position down to the millisecond, which is also unneccesary because if you see an alien moving along a corridor I'm pretty sure you can aim at where it's going to come out. Update delay doesn't really help you.
It's a stupid mechanic, it doesn't add anything to the game, and it doesn't need to exist, so why put it in?
<!--quoteo(post=1811677:date=Nov 29 2010, 04:59 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 29 2010, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're in a position to take out the marine base even when they know you're coming why aren't you already doing it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Observatories don't have much HP at all. It would only take two lousy skulks a good 4 or 5 seconds to kill. It's not about winning the game at that one point.
Secondly, if you haven't got a second hive up by this point you're screwed anyway. If you do, get SC's for crying out loud. Further, use leap and higher lifeforms. Even further, just keep parasiting any advancing marines and fall back while a lerk drops gas. MT is useless at range unless you're absolutely terrible. Any team worth their salt will then be able to murder them once they clump up and try to build a TF to attempt a siege or something.
Have any of you anti MT/SoF lot played a proper competitive game?
<!--quoteo(post=1811678:date=Nov 29 2010, 09:04 AM:name=xposed-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xposed- @ Nov 29 2010, 09:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Observatories don't have much HP at all. It would only take two lousy skulks a good 4 or 5 seconds to kill. It's not about winning the game at that one point.
Secondly, if you haven't got a second hive up by this point you're screwed anyway. If you do, get SC's for crying out loud. Further, use leap and higher lifeforms. Even further, just keep parasiting any advancing marines and fall back while a lerk drops gas. MT is useless at range unless you're absolutely terrible. Any team worth their salt will then be able to murder them once they clump up and try to build a TF to attempt a siege or something.
Have any of you anti MT/SoF lot played a proper competitive game?
There's plenty that can be done to counter MT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm fairly sure the marines will just build another one if you destroy the observatory, coms often get more than one anyway for pings if they're going to siege.
Put it this way.
With MT, those tactics work, they also work without MT.
With MT, stealth tactics and early lifeforms don't work.
Which state allows for more variety, and which is therefore the better state?
If they build another obs, kill it again. If MT is proving to be difficult to play against, then by definition the marines must be out on the field killing you, correct? This makes it exceptionally easy to get into their spawn and kill the obs as many times as you need.
By the point in the game where MT is up and causing a problem for the aliens, stealth and early lifeforms are majorly useless anyway. Unless the marine commander has fast teched straight to MT without getting any other sort of upgrades. If this is the case though, it'll be easy to counter by chewing down all of their nodes which will be an auto win.
The amount of counter strategies available are only limited by the players skill level. If they aren't good enough to counter it then that's just the way it is. They need to improve. Next time they might realise MT is on the way and change their play accordingly, which is what RTS is all about.
Stealth works perfectly at any point in the game, as long as you can do it.
Being able to use the enemy's lack of knowledge of your location in order to cut the distance between you and them is useful and doable with any class, the only reason it wouldn't work is if you get something stupid like motion tracking which tells the marines where you are.
It removes a whole set of tactics which involve that, in the early game you can set up somewhere as a skulk and drop on marines to kill them, or you can push along a little used path in the map to set up and catch the marines off guard in a strategic sense.
Motion tracking simply makes them impossible, because it's a bad mechanic. UWE is already doing intelligent things like buffing the base classes more as the game goes on to keep them useful, as well as making the later classes more niche based so that a combination of many classes is best. Skulks however are still oriented around not being detected until it's too late, they can use vents easily to appear in unusual locations, they don't make teleporty noises when they move like fades, and they have parasite to help them track marines and pull of ambushes more easily. If you put motion tracking back in the skulk becomes useless, it really is the only thing that would make the skulk entirely useless in NS2.
And again, the marines don't need wallhacks, they aren't unable to compete without them, they have other, more interesting ways to find aliens, they have the flashlight and their eyes, which have visible limitations fot the aliens to exploit, the aliens know if the marine can see them because they will be looking at them. That sort of feedback is essential in FPS games.
The alien stealth mechanic is a good one, motion tracking serves only to destroy it, and adds nothing, because things like using silence and other lifeforms and taking out important marine structures and all the things you listed are good ideas without motion tracking. You don't need MT to facilitate them, but you do need to get rid of it to keep the fundamental and most basic element of NS in play, the idea that both players need a brain to gain advantage. 'Be in the area of a sensory tower' or 'be an onos' are not intelligent, they stupid and unneccesary restrictions on the late game.
<!--quoteo(post=1811665:date=Nov 29 2010, 04:18 AM:name=xposed-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xposed- @ Nov 29 2010, 04:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know why I'm raging so hard about this, but, do you play RTS at all yourbonesakin? It's about countering your enemies strategy. Right? k, now, going by your logic, if scent of fear (or just having SC's spotted around the map) is so OP as you say MT is, then they cancel each other out and there's no problem.
If the marines have MT and the aliens are too retarded to do anything about it or vice versa then they don't deserve to win anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Balanced does not equal fun. If that were true, we'd just flip coins all day and try to guess which side lands up. We'd be ecstatically enthralled with flipping coins, have national, no GLOBAL coin flip guessing competitions. Because that's 50/50 even chances of winning, right? And balance equal fun.
Have you ever thought about making games, xposed? Ever? Even once in your life?
Now let's delve into why you are wrong in the instance after completely thrashing you in the general case.
No team should be immune to losing an overwhelming advantage to a slight mistake. Otherwise games will be "over" in terms of tension and excitement <i>long</i> before they actually finish. Commanders will have to keep playing in auto-pilot. TheLittleOne describes it as "Bunker mode". He switched his main in-game team as a competitive professional gamer because of this auto-pilot mode, <i>not because the team he switched to was stronger, but because it required more attention and action</i>. This is a big deal. In normal life terms, TLO lost two months worth of wages because of the switch.
I've set up a reliable anecdotal example to prove my point. Let me prove it in theory.
If playing the game is good, not playing the game is bad! Going into "bunker mode" once you've got an enormous lead is boring! You completely stop making reactionary strategic decisions, watch the minimap and brainlessly click "distress beacon" if you see blips moving in a certain way in a certain location. The game becomes no longer a fast paced, difficult RTS, but a single button game toddlers could beat. All the while, you must still go through routine motions like a robot. No choice, all chore.
Bad game design 101.
<!--quoteo(post=1811665:date=Nov 29 2010, 04:18 AM:name=xposed-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xposed- @ Nov 29 2010, 04:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PS: (Something from my post)
This made me lol. Show me one time where the "average public server alien team" has executed a coordinated base rush with or without MT and I will send you a lollipop. Make that two. The only time this type of thing happens is in competitive NS (long dead, unfortunately). Your point is still invalid though, given at this level of play teams actually know how to play the game instead of whinging about MT or SoF.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I said the "average public server alien team" can't execute a coordinated base rush with marine map hacking. You just missed a "not" in my post. Excusable mistake.
I never said the game was unplayable with in-game map hacking. It certainly is playable (and even winnable if one side has map hacking and the other doesn't). Just no fun once you know the game is decided but still have to play it for fifteen minutes.
Now, SC2 has this problem too. The game is technically not "over" until all your buildings are dead. This could take minutes after your foe's only defenses are defeated. If your foe doesn't surrender, you could literally attack-move your entire army with two actions, make a sandwich, eat it, and come back five minutes later with another win under your belt. But in SC2, only one enemy player has to quit before the game's over. In NS1, 5 or even more enemy players must quit. Games last longer when they get decided and boring. This boring state is a much more intense, much more common phenomenon. It's something Unknown Worlds Entertainment has to worry about and hope to avert with good game design.
Comments
-> Parasite Removal Kit
please
Parasite is also notably one of the most valuable tools for giving skulk late game value. Often it's almost better to have 3 fades, lerk and a skulk than 4 fades and lerk, since the parasite gives lifeforms so much more survivability. Isn't that exactly what the devs have been looking for?
The benefit I see in removable parasite is that it emphasizes alien comm abillity to see the big picture effectively and gives the whole role much needed value. However, that doesn't really justify leaving parasite at an insignificant state. I don't think there's any point in keeping a shadow of the former ability if the ability has lost all it's meaning. I feel you either go big with the parasite or don't have it in the game at all. If para can't be exist as a powerful ability, I'd rather have it replaced by something completely different and innovative.
As i mentioned before, medpack spamming is not fun. So i think giving a medpack should be a "ability" of a marine, like stim in SC2.
Now, another ability, "cure parasite" could be added, that costs res, and makes the marine loose health. Or just cost res, perhaps it's not that fun for the marine if he suddenly loses health.
Motion Tracking early game? wat?
To stay on topic though, on the realism side of things I thought it was a bit retarded that the marines didn't have something in their arsenal to remove parasites (such as simply cutting the damn thing out with their knife) but gameplay wise I really like it. Parasiting is definitely not maphacks, with decent marine play it doesn't matter if the opposite team know where you are, you should be able to defend yourself (against skulks anyway).
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.. will the ongoing cost of dropping medpacks to be worth curing parasites over and over when, clearly, the aliens know where the marines are anyway? (Given one of them is parasiting the squad which is getting healed)
But if UWE will make the Parasite removable it should at least hurt the marine team enough to make the removal rare. So it would rather be applied on HAs and JPs but at least not on common marines. It could be done with a special Parasite removal kit, that would cost ...say, 3 times as much as a medkit.
But it's even better if the Para isn't removable at all.
/my 2ct
Oh and if it is too good make parasite spread among touching marines.
Parasite removal = /Kill
don't get me wrong, it wasn't a bad laugh, infact, I am completely on the side of the thread starter! I laughed because it was true, and how the post was written.
you can see that it really means something to him/her judging on the length.
+1 on taking out Parasite heal and Motion tracking.
parasite is a tactical tool to organise yourself and tell the team that there are enemies troops there, a task a constant marine commander does, but Aliens substituted with parasite.
to be fair, I don't know if Parasite should stay in or not. I remain neutral in that regard. it only affects 1 player and a brave alien has to "tag" him and risk himself.
Motiontracking was just bad. really bad. read how bad in the first post. I can not see a single redeeming thing on it that merits its Reimplementation.
Marines got Scan, and Scan is a good, balanced and useful thing. to compensate for the Lack of MT you can lower the cost to deploy it, or even make it free with a cool down time.
I wasn't uneducated and actually read the post.
I wholeheartedly agree with you OP.
I saw it on the progress bar and my head hit the desk.
Parasite should not be removed until death.
But mostly this:
How map hacking gets into NS2, I have no idea. It's a terrible, terrible idea which needs to axed now, now, now.
Unknown Worlds Entertainment, I love you. You get my support and I cut you slack because I know you listen to the community and are making a great game many people will spend years mastering. Map hacking is not and cannot be good in RTS games. It is simply much too information for any team to possess. And no, both teams getting map hacking doesn't fix the issue.
If the map hacking was limited (false signatures/missing signatures, high refresh time (10 seconds minimum), only works in powered areas), it <i>might</i> not suck terribly from a fundamental perspective. Zero latency perfectly accurate map wide map hacks is just map hacks. Pure and simple.
If map hacking gets into NS2, I'll probably be rendered speechless for a good 10 seconds and just have to put it out of my mind for a day. I don't know what the eventual reaction post will look like, but it won't be pretty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[a] It's not a hack if it's a feature, by definition.
[b] If it's such a grievance, then parasite should be nixed too.
man, MT never helped me much, just cluttered up my screen, and I STILL died even when I knew something was there. I don't care if it stays in and honestly don't feel like it's a deciding game factor at all.
I do dislike the motion tracking in NS1, as even if you are not moving you cannot rely on whether the marine knows exactly where you stopped and can basically wall hack.
My opinion is, lets try it. This is the beta after all, and it may or may not be good for the game... and we can all moan/support it then, as I don't think this one can be argued out easily.
You're either bads or you're talking about combat. Which would make you a bad either way.
[b] If it's such a grievance, then parasite should be nixed too.
man, MT never helped me much, just cluttered up my screen, and I STILL died even when I knew something was there. I don't care if it stays in and honestly don't feel like it's a deciding game factor at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, parasite can be removed too for all I care. If that's the cost of map hacking not being in NS2, I'd gladly pay.
If MT didn't help you much, you didn't pay enough attention to the minimap. It helps a lot. Let me explain.
With very little attention, you know if skulks are coming from front or behind. This is... alright. Not too crazy for the rest of the game to be balanced around.
With devotion to the mini map, you must walk into a cloaked or hiding alien for anything to catch you by surprise. This is kinda ######. If nothing can sneak up behind you (a skulk with celerity does not walk faster than a marine runs and that's the fastest walking alien class), the tension, mystery, and thus horror of NS2 is lost by a lot. No need to look over your shoulder every five seconds. I don't like this.
You also know all troop movement of the enemy side with zero latency map wide zero error map hacking. This is retarded and a deal breaker. It reduces risk of base rush to practically zero because no alien team on the average public server can successfully walk all the way to marine start from one of their hives. The risk is not zero, but it's so close to zero it might as well be zero. Alien map hacking (scent of fear or just having sensory chambers) is unbeatable by walking. Um... No.
Side Note: Yes, I know map hacking isn't map hacking if its a feature implemented by the developers. You're absolutely correct on that point. I just like calling it map hacking because in many RTS games, benefiting from NS1's motion tracking would get your account suspended or banned. It's more controversial and galvanizing than using the correct term. I really care about NS2 not being a terrible game, so I'm going to use a provocative word so the issue sounds important to people reading ("Wait, there was something retarded in NS1?!"), making them more likely to form opinions (either agreeing or disagreeing) and voice those opinions. Then I destroy the opposing arguments because they're wrong and there're more people who agree with me posting, thus increasing the chance Unknown Worlds Entertainment doesn't put Motion Tracking or Scent of Fear in NS2.
NS1's motion tracking is just too powerful. So is NS1's scent of fear (probably more so because aliens benefit much more from knowing enemy locations because of their higher movement speeds and access to vents as perfect escape paths). I know my rate of death dropped significantly when I had alien map hacking and was just biting Resource Towers (a very viable alternative to killing marines). The risks I had to take were much less.
Again I'd like to stress that NS2 and Unknown Worlds Entertainment are awesome. NS1 was a free mod, a labor of love with its understandable imperfections. I cannot stress how awesome Natural Selection as a franchise is, and how awesome and talented its developers and designers are. Now that a sequel is being made, improvements can be added. The same thing happened in the transition from SC1 and SC2. Macromanaging and micromanaging became much easier. Grognards whined because the "skill requirement" was lessened (and by lessened, I mean "Made less insane"), but they eventually came to their senses (We don't SC2's UI difficulty to be a "feature"). SC2 is slated to be the longest played, most well received, <i>most socially important</i> video game we have. So if Unknown Worlds Entertainment can learn from Blizzard and keep making awesome games gamers love, all the better.
edit: I see medpacks removing parasites somehow like spending a scan to take out an observer (SC), you trade income for "secrecy". Sure the comparison isn't the best, but I'm sure you get it.
If the marines have MT and the aliens are too retarded to do anything about it or vice versa then they don't deserve to win anyway.
PS:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It reduces risk of base rush to practically zero because no alien team on the average public server can successfully walk all the way to marine start from one of their hives<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This made me lol. Show me one time where the "average public server alien team" has executed a coordinated base rush with or without MT and I will send you a lollipop. Make that two. The only time this type of thing happens is in competitive NS (long dead, unfortunately). Your point is still invalid though, given at this level of play teams actually know how to play the game instead of whinging about MT or SoF.
/thread
This is exactly right. This is RTS. If you don't like RTS type play you shouldn't be playing NS/NS2.
Sure, MT means you can't walk around the map as a lone skulk anymore but tough luck. Counter it with your own abilities.
You can't do anything about it, other than 'never move' which makes winning quite difficult.
That's the point. It'd be like playing an RTS without the fog of war.
Kinda stupid in other words.
That's the point. It'd be like playing an RTS without the fog of war.
Kinda stupid in other words.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sure you can. base rush and kill the obs. silence can still trip up marines even if they have MT - it wasn't a real time wallhack so you could still abuse the update delay.
That's kinda like saying 'the way to beat the wallhacks is to win before they happen'.
If you're in a position to take out the marine base even when they know you're coming why aren't you already doing it?
The fundamental point is that motion tracking gives the marines essentially perfect knowledge. They show where all members of the team whose only strength is mobility are at all times. Unless you plan to spend all your time in hives or not moving, you will reveal yourself, and once you do the marines know where you are. The only things they don't know is exactly what class you are, which is kind of irrelevant because marines always bring their best weapons and gear anyway, and your position down to the millisecond, which is also unneccesary because if you see an alien moving along a corridor I'm pretty sure you can aim at where it's going to come out. Update delay doesn't really help you.
It's a stupid mechanic, it doesn't add anything to the game, and it doesn't need to exist, so why put it in?
Observatories don't have much HP at all. It would only take two lousy skulks a good 4 or 5 seconds to kill. It's not about winning the game at that one point.
Secondly, if you haven't got a second hive up by this point you're screwed anyway. If you do, get SC's for crying out loud. Further, use leap and higher lifeforms. Even further, just keep parasiting any advancing marines and fall back while a lerk drops gas. MT is useless at range unless you're absolutely terrible. Any team worth their salt will then be able to murder them once they clump up and try to build a TF to attempt a siege or something.
Have any of you anti MT/SoF lot played a proper competitive game?
There's plenty that can be done to counter MT.
Secondly, if you haven't got a second hive up by this point you're screwed anyway. If you do, get SC's for crying out loud. Further, use leap and higher lifeforms. Even further, just keep parasiting any advancing marines and fall back while a lerk drops gas. MT is useless at range unless you're absolutely terrible. Any team worth their salt will then be able to murder them once they clump up and try to build a TF to attempt a siege or something.
Have any of you anti MT/SoF lot played a proper competitive game?
There's plenty that can be done to counter MT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm fairly sure the marines will just build another one if you destroy the observatory, coms often get more than one anyway for pings if they're going to siege.
Put it this way.
With MT, those tactics work, they also work without MT.
With MT, stealth tactics and early lifeforms don't work.
Which state allows for more variety, and which is therefore the better state?
By the point in the game where MT is up and causing a problem for the aliens, stealth and early lifeforms are majorly useless anyway. Unless the marine commander has fast teched straight to MT without getting any other sort of upgrades. If this is the case though, it'll be easy to counter by chewing down all of their nodes which will be an auto win.
The amount of counter strategies available are only limited by the players skill level. If they aren't good enough to counter it then that's just the way it is. They need to improve. Next time they might realise MT is on the way and change their play accordingly, which is what RTS is all about.
Being able to use the enemy's lack of knowledge of your location in order to cut the distance between you and them is useful and doable with any class, the only reason it wouldn't work is if you get something stupid like motion tracking which tells the marines where you are.
It removes a whole set of tactics which involve that, in the early game you can set up somewhere as a skulk and drop on marines to kill them, or you can push along a little used path in the map to set up and catch the marines off guard in a strategic sense.
Motion tracking simply makes them impossible, because it's a bad mechanic. UWE is already doing intelligent things like buffing the base classes more as the game goes on to keep them useful, as well as making the later classes more niche based so that a combination of many classes is best. Skulks however are still oriented around not being detected until it's too late, they can use vents easily to appear in unusual locations, they don't make teleporty noises when they move like fades, and they have parasite to help them track marines and pull of ambushes more easily. If you put motion tracking back in the skulk becomes useless, it really is the only thing that would make the skulk entirely useless in NS2.
And again, the marines don't need wallhacks, they aren't unable to compete without them, they have other, more interesting ways to find aliens, they have the flashlight and their eyes, which have visible limitations fot the aliens to exploit, the aliens know if the marine can see them because they will be looking at them. That sort of feedback is essential in FPS games.
The alien stealth mechanic is a good one, motion tracking serves only to destroy it, and adds nothing, because things like using silence and other lifeforms and taking out important marine structures and all the things you listed are good ideas without motion tracking. You don't need MT to facilitate them, but you do need to get rid of it to keep the fundamental and most basic element of NS in play, the idea that both players need a brain to gain advantage. 'Be in the area of a sensory tower' or 'be an onos' are not intelligent, they stupid and unneccesary restrictions on the late game.
If the marines have MT and the aliens are too retarded to do anything about it or vice versa then they don't deserve to win anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Balanced does not equal fun. If that were true, we'd just flip coins all day and try to guess which side lands up. We'd be ecstatically enthralled with flipping coins, have national, no GLOBAL coin flip guessing competitions. Because that's 50/50 even chances of winning, right? And balance equal fun.
Have you ever thought about making games, xposed? Ever? Even once in your life?
Now let's delve into why you are wrong in the instance after completely thrashing you in the general case.
No team should be immune to losing an overwhelming advantage to a slight mistake. Otherwise games will be "over" in terms of tension and excitement <i>long</i> before they actually finish. Commanders will have to keep playing in auto-pilot. TheLittleOne describes it as "Bunker mode". He switched his main in-game team as a competitive professional gamer because of this auto-pilot mode, <i>not because the team he switched to was stronger, but because it required more attention and action</i>. This is a big deal. In normal life terms, TLO lost two months worth of wages because of the switch.
I've set up a reliable anecdotal example to prove my point. Let me prove it in theory.
If playing the game is good, not playing the game is bad! Going into "bunker mode" once you've got an enormous lead is boring! You completely stop making reactionary strategic decisions, watch the minimap and brainlessly click "distress beacon" if you see blips moving in a certain way in a certain location. The game becomes no longer a fast paced, difficult RTS, but a single button game toddlers could beat. All the while, you must still go through routine motions like a robot. No choice, all chore.
Bad game design 101.
<!--quoteo(post=1811665:date=Nov 29 2010, 04:18 AM:name=xposed-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xposed- @ Nov 29 2010, 04:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PS:
(Something from my post)
This made me lol. Show me one time where the "average public server alien team" has executed a coordinated base rush with or without MT and I will send you a lollipop. Make that two. The only time this type of thing happens is in competitive NS (long dead, unfortunately). Your point is still invalid though, given at this level of play teams actually know how to play the game instead of whinging about MT or SoF.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said the "average public server alien team" can't execute a coordinated base rush with marine map hacking. You just missed a "not" in my post. Excusable mistake.
I never said the game was unplayable with in-game map hacking. It certainly is playable (and even winnable if one side has map hacking and the other doesn't). Just no fun once you know the game is decided but still have to play it for fifteen minutes.
Now, SC2 has this problem too. The game is technically not "over" until all your buildings are dead. This could take minutes after your foe's only defenses are defeated. If your foe doesn't surrender, you could literally attack-move your entire army with two actions, make a sandwich, eat it, and come back five minutes later with another win under your belt. But in SC2, only one enemy player has to quit before the game's over. In NS1, 5 or even more enemy players must quit. Games last longer when they get decided and boring. This boring state is a much more intense, much more common phenomenon. It's something Unknown Worlds Entertainment has to worry about and hope to avert with good game design.