Is anyone really surprised? i mean this is what happens here now. They put out a patch that doesnt work and we wait for another month or 2 for another one that doesnt work. ###### they ask us for help, the developers of the ask the customers how to adjust something or fix something. How are things going to work if they dont even seem to know what to do......
Maybe we need more test servers in different geo locations for testing....I think net code issue would be easier to test if the clients and server were geographically farther apart. I'm happy to participate in this if it means the net code issues will be easier to diagnose.
Network code is much improved. Still needs a lot of work, but I can tell the responsiveness is a million times better. It's still so bad that you are really guessing to hit the other player since it only updates their positions every few seconds, but it really feels like the weapons are more responsive, at least on the kharaa side. The lerk's spores actually appear right when I shoot them! I'm not sure if that's just my client rendering it because I fired it or if the server actually responded that quickly, but it gives me hope. Seems to be more of an issue updating player locations and interpolation.
If these issues aren't reproducible at a LAN, shouldn't you just have some people load up a server elsewhere (like possibly another city) then have a few people in the office connect and monitor what happens?
<!--quoteo(post=1803306:date=Oct 27 2010, 08:10 PM:name=Eyeless)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Eyeless @ Oct 27 2010, 08:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is anyone really surprised? i mean this is what happens here now. They put out a patch that doesnt work and we wait for another month or 2 for another one that doesnt work. ###### they ask us for help, the developers of the ask the customers how to adjust something or fix something. How are things going to work if they dont even seem to know what to do......<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b> The game is an A-L-P-H-A</b><i></i><u></u> and its amazing that a Developer will go to the customers so help and suggestions. Ever played a EA game? Nuff said.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1803308:date=Oct 28 2010, 12:16 AM:name=Stele007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stele007 @ Oct 28 2010, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Network code is much improved. Still needs a lot of work, but I can tell the responsiveness is a million times better. It's still so bad that you are really guessing to hit the other player since it only updates their positions every few seconds, but it really feels like the weapons are more responsive, at least on the kharaa side. The lerk's spores actually appear right when I shoot them! I'm not sure if that's just my client rendering it because I fired it or if the server actually responded that quickly, but it gives me hope. Seems to be more of an issue updating player locations and interpolation.
If these issues aren't reproducible at a LAN, shouldn't you just have some people load up a server elsewhere (like possibly another city) then have a few people in the office connect and monitor what happens?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed, the local fps takes a dive when more players join. But the latency and hit accuracy still is pretty much the same. somehow the engine is doing something locally, perhaps it's having trouble with the latency compensation when more players join with latency around 60+ and then floods your cpu beyond what it can do...
For me the magic stops at about 5-8 players, I've heard for other people it is playable beyond that even. CPU is the bottleneck currently
As a release engineer where I work, I am very much not surprised by this. Agile code releasing (which Valve's Steam isn't fast enough to offer.. also UWE would require a release engineer to offload the work of current development) is the only way to really get the public involved in rapid bug testing/fixing. The more monolithic a release is, the less likely it will "just work" the way people expect. Essentially, UWE doesn't have a "fully realized" QA team because their internal team isn't large enough and the public alpha players aren't given rapid enough iterations. It's not their fault, either; they certainly don't have the cash to hire a professional team and pulling in the public to do the work is more difficult than you think (NDAs and unprofessionalism rear their ugly heads here) but rather the fault of Steam's inability to allow a faster code iteration pipe.
I highly doubt you need my suggestions, Flayra and the rest, but just consider having build 153 not include additional features and bug fixes, but rather <i>just</i> a network fix? At least that way you could isolate the code you believe is the cause of current problems rather than have a pile of other code obfuscate the source. Considering you're willing to wait 2 months to release a patch "that people will want to play" I'm sure you're willing to branch off your trunk for a pure network fix release, yeah?
Edit: Ah this all assumes it really does end up being just one or two fixable issues. Reading the thread it seems like there are a few different things that may have just all come together to screw performance over.
Bit disappointing for a number of reasons, though I have faith you guys can fix them.
Here is a list of Bugs I found in about 20 mins test time on LAN:
FPS has gone from average 60-95 fps on a i7 920 with 6GB DDR3 and GeForce 470 all the way down to 15-29 FPS, being very consistantly 25ish. *sadface* Cant connect to servers, when I do, cant move at all. FPS counter still going strong. Had to test further on LAN. Drifters/Build Bot build bug is STILL there, they wont build most of the time. Just sit on the RT port and jitter, or go through the floor. Eggs still float above the ground when gestating When placing Hydras as gorge white polygons appear about 20 feet away on the ground. Only disappear when you de-select Hydra. Gorge spit still not smooth firing. Mini-Map jittering around like it's on crack. (Alien) Camera-Jitters still when clicking and dragging around the mini-map (but it fixed for normal edge-of-monitor scrolling) Drifters still skipping over the walls/ceiling to get places rather than walk down the corridors. As Alien Comm researching bacteria causes Marine 'Research complete' sound, not alien. Ammo texture on main gun now replaced by random animated texture, not ammo count. (This fixes itself if you alt-tab out and back in game) Random animated/still texture as selection ring. After building, MAC will still do 'building' animation even though he's finished. Ammo Screen (Flash-based) is flickering in and out of it's socket by about half an inch.
Noticed: NS2.exe was using 1.4GB of RAM. More than SC2 on highest Ultra settings.
I hope this helps, but I cant help feeling that you need to expand your PT team if you didn't pick up on some of the more obvious bugs. I have every confidence you will get everything fixed eventually, but please don't be afraid to ask your community for more help. :)
I have a pretty good computer, and playing a game by myself fullscreen on minimum settings, my framerate is still really poor, often single digits. Has anybody found any good general purpose tweaks to improve it?
<!--quoteo(post=1803324:date=Oct 27 2010, 07:52 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Oct 27 2010, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a pretty good computer, and playing a game by myself fullscreen on minimum settings, my framerate is still really poor, often single digits. Has anybody found any good general purpose tweaks to improve it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. The performance is just really bad right now. I have the same situation and my FPS is hovering around 20. I can play pretty much every other modern games with medium/good FPS.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2010
Heh, all I can say is play it in window mode (1280x720p) and set the graphics to awful. No need to be shiny, it's alpha. but it does allow me to play on servers...
I find window mode somehow puts less strain on the computer somehow. That and I have dual screens and not playing on 1680x1050 (which is an impossible task for my cpu/gpu combo currently) screws up mah desktop...
In the ready room just looking in one particular corner the draw calls sky rocket 8000+ also the occlusion queries go into the thousands, as does the object count and the polygon count hits 2.5 million..
I think in some conditions the occlusion culling isn't working...
I've sent Flayra a screen grab hopefully it helps....
<!--quoteo(post=1803330:date=Oct 27 2010, 07:59 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Oct 27 2010, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just found a pretty major issue..
In the ready room just looking in one particle corner the draw calls sky rocket 8000+ also the occlusion queries go into the thousands, as does the object count and the polygon count hits 2.5 million..
I think in some conditions the occlusion culling isn't working...
I've sent Flayra a screen grab hopefully it helps....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1803332:date=Oct 28 2010, 01:05 AM:name=Mr. Epic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Epic @ Oct 28 2010, 01:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->server ops out there did the maximum players setting work for you guys?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For those looking for a more positive view of the patch, it might be your cup of tea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Great job! Makes me all the more excited to finish work, go home, and hopefully find a server that isn't death to play on! :)
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1803333:date=Oct 27 2010, 09:07 PM:name=Martin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Martin @ Oct 27 2010, 09:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes mine is set to 16 and seems to work<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Anyone else?
For those looking for a more positive view of the patch, it might be your cup of tea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I tried to do a bug-report on NS2 and the Gorge spit which bounces off the edges of props in pinball mode style. Trying to record it on video... My computer looked at me as if I was insane! I did manage to record it though, but the file in the end was corrupte T_T
Me kicking it didn't help either. Gawd I'm envious of your performance <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/shifty.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Haha don't be too envious, the encode is disguising a frame rate poking around 22-27 in this build. I actually saw you in the second server I joined, it was frozen and I was just staring at this marine named Kouji_San. I tried to say hi but I think the server was having a brain explosion.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1803343:date=Oct 28 2010, 01:37 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Oct 28 2010, 01:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Haha don't be too envious, the encode is disguising a frame rate poking around 22-27 in this build. I actually saw you in the second server I joined, it was frozen and I was just staring at this marine named Kouji_San. I tried to say hi but I think the server was having a brain explosion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I played on those UK man down servers, I tink. But I read on Get Satisfaction that the player list doesn't always remove players from there... I did play on the map in your video, so I probably was there in spirit <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/youreallwrong.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Flayra; maybe it would help if a few people could join an MP game you're hosting at the office (for example) just to make it easier for you to debug these problems without so much pressure.
<!--quoteo(post=1803332:date=Oct 27 2010, 09:05 PM:name=Mr. Epic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Epic @ Oct 27 2010, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->server ops out there did the maximum players setting work for you guys?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could be wrong, but I believe it is working. When players leave, it's not updating the player list properly. The list of players just seems to go up and up, but you can tell only a few of them are actually in the game.
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1803352:date=Oct 27 2010, 09:55 PM:name=Stele007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stele007 @ Oct 27 2010, 09:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I could be wrong, but I believe it is working. When players leave, it's not updating the player list properly. The list of players just seems to go up and up, but you can tell only a few of them are actually in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> interesting
Is it possible that all collision queries/sounds/etc. that are happening against/in the game world are being thrown at some clients? Maybe the algorithm to divide the level up into sections for occluding/sounds/collision detection are not working as expected on some CPU/GPUs?
I still have to wait a few seconds from hearing a sound (usually the build bot talking) and seeing the game world in the RR and after, I usually have to wait a long time for the keyboard input to work (how are you grabbing that by the way? I know if you poll keyboard input in SDL more than once in a tick, BAD THINGS HAPPEN!) and when it does I can sometimes look around a bit but as soon a I move all input shuts down again.
I assume it isn't my client lagging at least because all special effects/animations that I see go by my viewport fast (i.e. Hive animation+Foggy Steam).
Has anyone with problems tried re-installing NS2 completely? I think I may try that.
Comments
If these issues aren't reproducible at a LAN, shouldn't you just have some people load up a server elsewhere (like possibly another city) then have a few people in the office connect and monitor what happens?
<b> The game is an A-L-P-H-A</b><i></i><u></u> and its amazing that a Developer will go to the customers so help and suggestions. Ever played a EA game? Nuff said.
If these issues aren't reproducible at a LAN, shouldn't you just have some people load up a server elsewhere (like possibly another city) then have a few people in the office connect and monitor what happens?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, the local fps takes a dive when more players join. But the latency and hit accuracy still is pretty much the same. somehow the engine is doing something locally, perhaps it's having trouble with the latency compensation when more players join with latency around 60+ and then floods your cpu beyond what it can do...
For me the magic stops at about 5-8 players, I've heard for other people it is playable beyond that even. CPU is the bottleneck currently
I highly doubt you need my suggestions, Flayra and the rest, but just consider having build 153 not include additional features and bug fixes, but rather <i>just</i> a network fix? At least that way you could isolate the code you believe is the cause of current problems rather than have a pile of other code obfuscate the source. Considering you're willing to wait 2 months to release a patch "that people will want to play" I'm sure you're willing to branch off your trunk for a pure network fix release, yeah?
Edit: Ah this all assumes it really does end up being just one or two fixable issues. Reading the thread it seems like there are a few different things that may have just all come together to screw performance over.
Here is a list of Bugs I found in about 20 mins test time on LAN:
FPS has gone from average 60-95 fps on a i7 920 with 6GB DDR3 and GeForce 470 all the way down to 15-29 FPS, being very consistantly 25ish. *sadface*
Cant connect to servers, when I do, cant move at all. FPS counter still going strong. Had to test further on LAN.
Drifters/Build Bot build bug is STILL there, they wont build most of the time. Just sit on the RT port and jitter, or go through the floor.
Eggs still float above the ground when gestating
When placing Hydras as gorge white polygons appear about 20 feet away on the ground. Only disappear when you de-select Hydra.
Gorge spit still not smooth firing.
Mini-Map jittering around like it's on crack. (Alien)
Camera-Jitters still when clicking and dragging around the mini-map (but it fixed for normal edge-of-monitor scrolling)
Drifters still skipping over the walls/ceiling to get places rather than walk down the corridors.
As Alien Comm researching bacteria causes Marine 'Research complete' sound, not alien.
Ammo texture on main gun now replaced by random animated texture, not ammo count. (This fixes itself if you alt-tab out and back in game)
Random animated/still texture as selection ring.
After building, MAC will still do 'building' animation even though he's finished.
Ammo Screen (Flash-based) is flickering in and out of it's socket by about half an inch.
Noticed:
NS2.exe was using 1.4GB of RAM. More than SC2 on highest Ultra settings.
I hope this helps, but I cant help feeling that you need to expand your PT team if you didn't pick up on some of the more obvious bugs. I have every confidence you will get everything fixed eventually, but please don't be afraid to ask your community for more help. :)
No. The performance is just really bad right now. I have the same situation and my FPS is hovering around 20. I can play pretty much every other modern games with medium/good FPS.
I find window mode somehow puts less strain on the computer somehow. That and I have dual screens and not playing on 1680x1050 (which is an impossible task for my cpu/gpu combo currently) screws up mah desktop...
In the ready room just looking in one particular corner the draw calls sky rocket 8000+ also the occlusion queries go into the thousands, as does the object count and the polygon count hits 2.5 million..
I think in some conditions the occlusion culling isn't working...
I've sent Flayra a screen grab hopefully it helps....
In the ready room just looking in one particle corner the draw calls sky rocket 8000+ also the occlusion queries go into the thousands, as does the object count and the polygon count hits 2.5 million..
I think in some conditions the occlusion culling isn't working...
I've sent Flayra a screen grab hopefully it helps....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That might explain some spiking.
Yes mine is set to 16 and seems to work
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5p3uVZzcak" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5p3uVZzcak</a>
For those looking for a more positive view of the patch, it might be your cup of tea.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5p3uVZzcak" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5p3uVZzcak</a>
For those looking for a more positive view of the patch, it might be your cup of tea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great job! Makes me all the more excited to finish work, go home, and hopefully find a server that isn't death to play on! :)
Anyone else?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5p3uVZzcak" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5p3uVZzcak</a>
For those looking for a more positive view of the patch, it might be your cup of tea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tried to do a bug-report on NS2 and the Gorge spit which bounces off the edges of props in pinball mode style. Trying to record it on video... My computer looked at me as if I was insane! I did manage to record it though, but the file in the end was corrupte T_T
Me kicking it didn't help either. Gawd I'm envious of your performance <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/shifty.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I played on those UK man down servers, I tink. But I read on Get Satisfaction that the player list doesn't always remove players from there... I did play on the map in your video, so I probably was there in spirit <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/youreallwrong.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I could be wrong, but I believe it is working. When players leave, it's not updating the player list properly. The list of players just seems to go up and up, but you can tell only a few of them are actually in the game.
interesting
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5p3uVZzcak" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5p3uVZzcak</a>
For those looking for a more positive view of the patch, it might be your cup of tea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Work has banned Youtube... Feel like uploading a version to Google Video just to get me through the day? :D
I still have to wait a few seconds from hearing a sound (usually the build bot talking) and seeing the game world in the RR and after, I usually have to wait a long time for the keyboard input to work (how are you grabbing that by the way? I know if you poll keyboard input in SDL more than once in a tick, BAD THINGS HAPPEN!) and when it does I can sometimes look around a bit but as soon a I move all input shuts down again.
I assume it isn't my client lagging at least because all special effects/animations that I see go by my viewport fast (i.e. Hive animation+Foggy Steam).
Has anyone with problems tried re-installing NS2 completely? I think I may try that.