In defense of alpha testing (Or please stop suggesting gameplay changes)
Walfisch
Join Date: 2010-03-08 Member: 70883Members
Join Date: 2010-03-08 Member: 70883Members
Please stop. For the love of god please stop suggesting gameplay changes. Yes you, the person with a suggestion about lerks, or MACs, or whatever it is that involves gameplay stuff. Please, just stop for now. Phew, thank god I got all those out of my system before I actually started writing this up, otherwise this might have been a rage filled tirade.
Now, I know everyone feels that the game can be improved in this way or that way and we've all got our ideas of what NS2 should eventually be. Heck, everyone who pre-ordered definitely feel at least partially responsible for the game ever making it to this point. As the devs said, without us they wouldn't be here today. I know I've done alpha and beta testing for companies in the past, and I can tell you games change throughout the development cycle. Games can change from numbers games to actual full fledged gameplay from just a few suggestions. More importantly, however, is games can sometimes devolve into an experience that is so far removed from the original idea that it stops being fun. I've seen it happen before (which has cost me a few paychecks when they cut you off before testing's finished.) Do I think this is going to happen with NS2? Doubtful, since the dev team seem to have an excellent idea of where they want to go with the game, and from the Power Grid to Dynamic Infestation, the game has a ton of ideas that will evolve the game for years and years to come.
I can't help but notice a growing trend on the forums however that makes me feel...disappointed in the playerbase at the time being. Yes, we all can say we helped fund the project to this point, but can we at least let the dev team get to beta the game they originally intended players to try? I know I was on the devil's advocate side during the player building arguments (and yes I am well aware the pro-builders won that battle) but I can't help but feel we're lessening the game every time we think we know better than the developers. I know it's been said before by many players, but it's important to realize that an alpha does not have every feature that the game plans to release with, and in fact only features a small amount of gameplay ideas that will evolve as the game grows closer to closed beta and even open beta. Yes, you have ideas, but the purpose of the alpha was in the spirit of players who felt the game and more importantly the developers were supported in a wonderful idea. The developers let you in to a small, unfinished product in an effort to help them build the game up from a testing standpoint. In their eyes, one hundred eyes can find bugs faster than ten in house testers. The problem, however, is that players aren't looking for those bugs, and are only reporting what they feel is or isn't the game they want it to be. It worries me that so many people won't let the game become what it could potentially be by implying that you know more about what the game should be than the developers. I'm sorry you don't feel that the game reflects building well enough, but can we at least let it get to that point of proper testing first by finding the bugs that will push us closer to a proper gameplay test, then suggest things? Can we not say that sense impairment is a horrible idea until we find that glitch that makes the game unplayable for some people, then when we can have proper games test the system out?
I'm not saying your ideas are bad, or even that you're off base, but can we please come together as community and properly test before we cross into the dangerous territory of know-it-alls and better than thous? Unknown Worlds has given us a golden opportunity to fix problems and help them release the game some of us have been waiting for since we first played Natural Selection. NS1 created a love for a game developer that can we at least trust them enough to see what their final idea for the game is before we condemn them for not getting to our ideas in time? Heck, the fact that these arguments have grown so much have made me disillusioned to test with actual players, as it seems every argument descends into what gameplay elements they'd change. Truth is, yes we helped get to this point, but it's not our game, and we should trust that Unknown Worlds at least knows how to make a game. After all, we loved Natural Selection, lets help them get the game that we love so much out to the masses. Then we'll have truly helped Unknown Worlds make the game they've loved and shared with us.
Now, I know everyone feels that the game can be improved in this way or that way and we've all got our ideas of what NS2 should eventually be. Heck, everyone who pre-ordered definitely feel at least partially responsible for the game ever making it to this point. As the devs said, without us they wouldn't be here today. I know I've done alpha and beta testing for companies in the past, and I can tell you games change throughout the development cycle. Games can change from numbers games to actual full fledged gameplay from just a few suggestions. More importantly, however, is games can sometimes devolve into an experience that is so far removed from the original idea that it stops being fun. I've seen it happen before (which has cost me a few paychecks when they cut you off before testing's finished.) Do I think this is going to happen with NS2? Doubtful, since the dev team seem to have an excellent idea of where they want to go with the game, and from the Power Grid to Dynamic Infestation, the game has a ton of ideas that will evolve the game for years and years to come.
I can't help but notice a growing trend on the forums however that makes me feel...disappointed in the playerbase at the time being. Yes, we all can say we helped fund the project to this point, but can we at least let the dev team get to beta the game they originally intended players to try? I know I was on the devil's advocate side during the player building arguments (and yes I am well aware the pro-builders won that battle) but I can't help but feel we're lessening the game every time we think we know better than the developers. I know it's been said before by many players, but it's important to realize that an alpha does not have every feature that the game plans to release with, and in fact only features a small amount of gameplay ideas that will evolve as the game grows closer to closed beta and even open beta. Yes, you have ideas, but the purpose of the alpha was in the spirit of players who felt the game and more importantly the developers were supported in a wonderful idea. The developers let you in to a small, unfinished product in an effort to help them build the game up from a testing standpoint. In their eyes, one hundred eyes can find bugs faster than ten in house testers. The problem, however, is that players aren't looking for those bugs, and are only reporting what they feel is or isn't the game they want it to be. It worries me that so many people won't let the game become what it could potentially be by implying that you know more about what the game should be than the developers. I'm sorry you don't feel that the game reflects building well enough, but can we at least let it get to that point of proper testing first by finding the bugs that will push us closer to a proper gameplay test, then suggest things? Can we not say that sense impairment is a horrible idea until we find that glitch that makes the game unplayable for some people, then when we can have proper games test the system out?
I'm not saying your ideas are bad, or even that you're off base, but can we please come together as community and properly test before we cross into the dangerous territory of know-it-alls and better than thous? Unknown Worlds has given us a golden opportunity to fix problems and help them release the game some of us have been waiting for since we first played Natural Selection. NS1 created a love for a game developer that can we at least trust them enough to see what their final idea for the game is before we condemn them for not getting to our ideas in time? Heck, the fact that these arguments have grown so much have made me disillusioned to test with actual players, as it seems every argument descends into what gameplay elements they'd change. Truth is, yes we helped get to this point, but it's not our game, and we should trust that Unknown Worlds at least knows how to make a game. After all, we loved Natural Selection, lets help them get the game that we love so much out to the masses. Then we'll have truly helped Unknown Worlds make the game they've loved and shared with us.
Comments
Seriously though I'm in complete agreement with you Walfisch. People may make the above argument, but you know, great artists didn't listen to the critics and what they thought of their work, and then modify their work to please them. They created the work, and the critics and the admirers came afterward - wasn't that the same with NS1?
Why should it be any different with NS2?
If UWE directly asks the community for an opinion, then fine, but otherwise we shouldn't really stick our noses where they don't belong. Suggesting features for the future (without expectation) is fine, but suggesting <b>changes</b> to the current 'gameplay' simply isn't.
I should have gone with another approach to this subject speaking plain.
Regardless of what is said, the game will be the game.
Look people complained about taser long before it was released or seen in action. Because there was discussion back in the day, devs didn't have to waste time changing it now. They didn't spend money modeling it (afaik?) because they knew what people thought of it back then. If there had not been such discussion (like your advice), they might have finished in the silence and when it were release, people would have complained but devs might have had to response something along the lines "sorry but we spend too much money on this, we have to have it in the game". Discussion produces more information which will help developers make better decisions.
I don't like the lerk spikes and my opinion, it'll be a wasted development path and I'm here just trying to raise my voice and save their money and effort.
Besides, it's already in alpha. They're doing both gameplay changes and bugfixes, so I'm sure they appreciate feedback on the former since the latter are supposed to be posted on getsatisfaction.
I agree as it is alpha there still is alot of issues on the gameplay side that has to be fixed first, and complaining on a planned feature is not really smart before you atleast seen how it turns out. Altough you can obviously relate to how some stuff were in other games, and thus say your opinion on something.
In the end however the people doing the game is the ones doing the game. This means your suggestion is nothing more then a suggestion.
IIRC people were suggesting gameplay changes even before we recieved the engine test, and noone complained about the fact people changed stuff then, they just complained that the ideas were bad, or in a few rare cases they actually liked them.
tl;dr
Altough it is not a high chance of your suggestion being implemented, especially before the beta, there is nothing bad with actually voicing your opinion. It makes you feel like you contribute, and you might actually end up changing the game into something better. Just dont expect anything at all.
If thats the case they did the right thing, NS went only better.
They have many, many sources for inspiration already...movies, other games, even the forums. It's up to them to separate the wheat from the chaff, and the OP seems to want to remove both.
the OP is also silly if he thinks he can stop people from posting on an internet forum.
Maybe you missed a recent podcast where charlie said that they kinda missed out on a few things and he's happy the community did deliver them instead. Talking about servermods like lerklift, pg select and such stuff. He certainly didn't sound like he's been happy that they didn't add it and ignored suggestings for it. He rather sounded like he's happy that the community added it when they didn't add it.
And too many people around here forget something: WE are the community, if we don't like the game than something is wrong after all we are the people who are supposed to buy/like it (leaving aside that we allready bought it ^^). Charlie may be great, but he is by no way a god and unfailing. That's why there is a place for the community in gameplay and feature discussions and why there should be one.
This also goes for changes like building and the MAC's, people don't expect a "NS HD" but people at least expect a game that builds on the strong points of NS1 and not remove them in favor for something generic that might or might not sell better but in the end water down/remove the original NS experience.
To the OP: First you say we shouldn't suggest gameplay changes and next you say "wait till beta" and you have been a paid beta tester? If you really had been one than you should know that in beta gameplay is pretty much set in stone and it's way more difficult to change gameplay issues in beta compared to alpha. And exactly because of this i think right now is the time to at least discuss about gameplay changes.
For instance when the game first went into alpha there were at least 2 full pages full of threads about everyone's opinions of what building should consist of. It spawned so much that every topic devolved into I'm right and you're wrong arguments. The current air is on the impairment of senses and lerks. The only posts about actual testing or organization? Bad framerate which has been a topic post umpteen times. The bug submission site is full of more gameplay suggestions than there are gameplay elements. It's become something out of a Dean Koontz novel, where the real horror is suffering through each and every page trying to find a reasonable voice in which to work. I'd love to organize bug fix playthroughs, but all I see is whining about things that are hear-say and ideas. Fighting an idea is stupid. Wooo, you guys got tasers canned before the game even made test. Let's just can every idea we disagree with. Sorry, but that just gets me in a rage and I'm going to stop here.
And no rebirth, I said alpha or beta, just any time between bug test and feature lock. Paid Alpha testing is what I've done and it's all about breaking the game to fix it up again. If something doesn't work, you tell them, but you don't tell a developer that their idea which isn't in game is stupid. That's a sure way to get yourself canned. Hell, they don't care enough about what you think to probably get yourself canned since they won't tell you their ideas. You're a peon.
TL;DR Everyone saying I'm against gameplay discussion didn't bother to read my post and you're a worse person for it by thinking I hate change.
They did miss quite a lot stuff which is reasonable but most of the stuff including any combat mods / lerklift / gorgemines are plague to the NS1 ruining the gameplay UWE managed to achieve. Thanks to these its impossible to find a vanilla server without any extra crap.
Most of people here are very shortsighted regarding updates / features, "it sounds cool lets do this" kinda doesnt cut if you plan on making LONG lasting esports game. Really sad to see features already get dumbed down for sake of accessability, just for lazy people.
Actually, I haven't played NS1 for years and quite likely won't buy NS2 if it doesn't change a lot of things that made NS1 too much of a frag'em'up (e.g: 5 minute rounds). That doesn't mean I can't enjoy talking about the game before it dies out again.
You talk as if the Devs are the end all be all and need absolutely no advise at all, just sit back and accept what they do and still pay for it. Do you really believe the devs didn't expect feedback on every aspect of what was released, maybe they are using such feedback to their advantage. Most companies don't release early work because they don't want feedback on unfinished work, but to release and not expect feedback is just stupid.
One of the reasons most people don't bring up technical aspects of the game which need to be fixed is because they are quite obvious. It's obvious there are lag and connection issues, warping and such, it doesn't need to be debated. Though aspects of gameplay that have already been put in and been explained what the devs intended, can be debated and discussed. No one is debating aspects of the fade are they..... no..... but the MAC building which was already put in and said to be set in stone, was strongly debated.
I'm starting to just rant here... but overall your post sounds like a poor attempt to suppress the opposing views which you don't agree with.
That's not really what i meant, you had your reasons for playing NS1 in the beginning, things you liked, things that made it unique. Wouldn't it be stupid to remove those things?
Like i said: I'm not talking about "NS now with HD graphics!" i'm talking about some gameplay elements that made it unique and not just placing the game in the same setting and adding the same units but removing the gameplay so far from NS1 that it's basicly team deathmatch with different teams. Personaly i don't really want to see that happen..
You talk as if the Devs are the end all be all and need absolutely no advise at all, just sit back and accept what they do and still pay for it. Do you really believe the devs didn't expect feedback on every aspect of what was released, maybe they are using such feedback to their advantage. Most companies don't release early work because they don't want feedback on unfinished work, but to release and not expect feedback is just stupid.
One of the reasons most people don't bring up technical aspects of the game which need to be fixed is because they are quite obvious. It's obvious there are lag and connection issues, warping and such, it doesn't need to be debated. Though aspects of gameplay that have already been put in and been explained what the devs intended, can be debated and discussed. No one is debating aspects of the fade are they..... no..... but the MAC building which was already put in and said to be set in stone, was strongly debated.
I'm starting to just rant here... but overall your post sounds like a poor attempt to suppress the opposing views which you don't agree with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again, I'd like it if you bothered to read it. I'm not talking about things implemented. Rant away about how much you hate the look of black armor, or how much you hate the idea that you can or can't build, but taking up 2 pages of posts about how much you think the audio deafening system will or won't work is asinine and makes you seem like a know it all instead of a critic. You're not even rating a product by a preview, but by a minor description on how a function works. Great, you don't like the audio system how it's described, we have 13 threads on the forum about it, we don't need a 14th. We get it, you want them to implement *insert function here*, can we please keep it to less than 2 full forum pages of what you do or don't like about it? And have you looked at the getsatisfaction posts? It's all gameplay changes. I'm not saying don't post them. Read everything I wrote in which I say again and again POST GAMEPLAY CHANGES. But when we get 13 threads all saying a minor diversion of one idea or another, you're wasting space that could be used to talk about 100 other changes, both gameplay and technical. It's turned to bullying rather than criticism, and bullying a non-implemented idea is down right idiotic and arrogant.
And again, I wasn't talking about things implemented, or about what's in the engine test, but things that are on the tweets, or a random blurb in a podcast. When you get up in fumes about that, you're a moron. Plain and simple. And yes, people are debating aspects of the fade. People are debating aspects of dynamic infestation. People are debating things that aren't implemented. THATS MY POINT.
And just to make a final point: There are certain to be bugs that aren't lag and that aren't framerate. Again, if you read you would have seen that I was talking about actual testing in game for NEW things. Testing is the only way those things get found, otherwise we have people building off the map that you'll then claim should have been found before beta. You'll complain about how lerks actually can gas a comm in the chair after he's in the chair and that that should have been found. And you know what? It should have been.
whats wrong with people debating and discussing? of course sometimes things get heated but thats life.
the reason people don't debate and discuss the engine is because a lot of the issues are quite obvious at this point in time... so gameplay elements are discussed.
This whole "let's show our community stuff and debate everything" is great for keeping a community alive but when developers seriously consider community debates I have a feeling it's really bad for development. That, along with many other reasons I'm sure, is why it's almost never done.
Communities will always do what we're seeing now, debate and talk about features, because we have nothing else to do. Dev's, especially at this stage in game development where the fundamentals are being created, need to be confident in their vision of whatever game they're making. If devs listen to a community it should be on smaller issues based around refinement (ex: balance) but not the fundamentals.
This whole "let's show our community stuff and debate everything" is great for keeping a community alive but when developers seriously consider community debates I have a feeling it's really bad for development. That, along with many other reasons I'm sure, is why it's almost never done.
Communities will always do what we're seeing now, debate and talk about features, because we have nothing else to do. Dev's, especially at this stage in game development where the fundamentals are being created, need to be confident in their vision of whatever game they're making. If devs listen to a community it should be on smaller issues based around refinement (ex: balance) but not the fundamentals.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Steve, if you were a woman, or I was a woman, or one of us wasn't uncomfortable with the prospect...I would have your babies. I don't know how that would work with you being a woman though. Maybe we could have some sort of Arnold S. in Junior situation.
I do worry that Flayra's going to start worrying what the few start screaming, just because they scream it enough. I don't mind one post on how players feel about one element of gameplay, but it's getting/gotten way out of hand. I really hate getting on Getsatisfaction or even joining MP games because there seems to be no end to belly aching about non-existent or partially fleshed out features. I've actually heard players complain about the armory not working in quite the way they want or expected, and that devolving the whole server into gripe gripe gripe. Hell, the one topic I wish people would debate (the power grid) doesn't even get acknowledged (just my luck as it sounds like an amazing dynamic system.)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2LpeA3jcEU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2LpeA3jcEU</a>
not even close to an error report, a positive feedback or a good idea to implement
so I agree with Nilar, Eyeless and ssjyoda
not even close to an error report, a positive feedback or a good idea to implement
so I agree with Nilar, Eyeless and ssjyoda<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I missed the part where General Discussion was Ideas and Suggestions. Thanks for the point. You're a credit to the Constellation program.
I think they've been inoculated enough to know when the forum-ites are just being morons versus there's something wrong.
That being said, I do agree there does tend to be some very heated discussions about sometimes trivial subjects or too much speculation. That being said, I don't think it's fair to intentionally put a lid on suggesting new and interesting ideas. I know of a few instances where the original idea was totally crap, but during the progression of the thread some really cool ideas sprung up. Granted, these are rare, but getting those few nuggets of awesome make me passing over 10 other thread without even posting about how bad they are worth it.
I'm also slightly amused of GetSatisfaction becoming a suggestion locale instead of the I&S forums...