ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
did you even read that article walfisch? just about every developer in that article states that they've fired weapons before or someone else in the dev team has the knowledge. Hell... the Gearbox developer on there talks about a range they go to often.
Doesn't that website strike as a bit biased when it comes to weapons? I don't know...
In any case, the key sentence here is: "Not every game developer who makes games with firearms has handled an actual weapon, just like not every film director who makes movies with guns has handled a real gun."
Useful? Probably. Necessary? Certainly not, especially in a space shooter. NS2 is not America's Army.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
I was referring to more as the team of devs as a whole.. Yes, a film director him/herself may not have handled weapons but I can guarantee you that someone who has handled them would contribute information. Research is always necessary, and to have that experience personally makes it easier for a team of developers to get a better idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1797759:date=Sep 6 2010, 08:34 PM:name=ssjyoda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjyoda @ Sep 6 2010, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was referring to more as the team of devs as a whole.. Yes, a film director him/herself may not have handled weapons but I can guarantee you that someone who has handled them would contribute information. Research is always necessary, and to have that experience personally makes it easier for a team of developers to get a better idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> At least you corrected yourself, because otherwise <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->weapon proficiency IS in fact necessary...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> would come off as devs must know guns or they can't be devs. I would assume a good portion of gun game developers have no idea how a gun works or have ever fired one. Hell, I'd bet it just on the fact that noone seems to know what recoil is.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
thats your assumption as you say... I would assume most HAVE some proficiency and experience with fire arms. Simple example, and remember this is an example, many hollywood studios pay to send actors off to firing ranges, or boot camp, or whatever would help them better to get into character. The same holds true for a game developer. I you're developing weapons in a game world, you better have had some experience to draw on to make a better experience. Those developers that think they can get away with it, don't develop very good games.
To say that being proficient is NOT a skill that a dev would benefit greatly from is flat out wrong.
Well my opinion comes from actually working in the gaming community, and all I pointed out was saying it's necessary (which means requires) is different from what you're now saying, that it's beneficial. I wasn't saying they don't benefit from it, so again don't know where you're pulling that from, but saying that if you want to make a gun game, you have to know guns would probably hold true if most games followed even the most basic of logics of gun physics.
Also way to imply Doom and Quake weren't good games because the developer never shot a gun.
Holy mother of Dog. Trudging through this thread was a real grind. If you, like me appreciate the humor of Monty Python then you know how funny you are. If the Devs have time from their long hours of work to read the forums I’m sure it’s for the entertainment value. While reading the thread two old cliches came to mind. “A camel is a horse designed by a committee†and “opinions are like a$$holes everybody has one†I prepaid because of years of enjoyment of NS. I trust the development team to come through and eventually reward us all with a great game. The forums are a good place to blow off steam until NS2 becomes playable. It is also a place to find good ideas from a very talented community. It’s going to be a while before the gamma version so report any bugs you find (and funnies like floating armories), keep up with the forums and be patient. For Dog’s sake be patient.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
how in gods name did you get that I implied doom and quake weren't good games. stop taking what people say and twisting it around, playing word games, and then claiming that you never say such things. keep your facts straight, I started out defending someone saying being proficient in firearms is necessary in game design. you rip me and then claim you agree, wtf.
its good you have your own opinion from as you say working in the game community.. so do many other people on these boards, myself included. though you have no reason or right to treat people like they are less than you. To me you sound like a lil 12 yr old kid getting his kicks off.
<!--quoteo(post=1797772:date=Sep 7 2010, 02:00 AM:name=ssjyoda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjyoda @ Sep 7 2010, 02:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->how in gods name did you get that I implied doom and quake weren't good games. stop taking what people say and twisting it around, playing word games, and then claiming that you never say such things. keep your facts straight, I started out defending someone saying being proficient in firearms is necessary in game design. you rip me and then claim you agree, wtf.
its good you have your own opinion from as you say working in the game community.. so do many other people on these boards, myself included. though you have no reason or right to treat people like they are less than you. To me you sound like a lil 12 yr old kid getting his kicks off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You <!--quoteo(post=0:date=Sep 7 2010, 02:00 AM:name=ssjyoda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjyoda @ Sep 7 2010, 02:00 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Those developers that think they can get away with it, don't develop very good games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> John Romero quote (guy who made Doom and Quake) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, I'm afraid of guns. If there's a gun around, there is the possibility that someone's going to get killed or shot. I just do not want to be around them. Those are real. The ones that are in games are fake. They're fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You, just for emphasis again <!--quoteo(post=0:date=Sep 7 2010, 02:00 AM:name=ssjyoda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjyoda @ Sep 7 2010, 02:00 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Those developers that think they can get away with it, don't develop very good games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where did I twist your words?
Also you're still saying it's necessary. Think I disproved that. I didn't agree with you. I said it's nice if they do; Didn't say it's necessary. Maybe just bad vocabulary choice on your part? I'm willing to let it go.
And how'd we get here anyways? Because I insulted Focusedwolf? Someone said everyone on these boards could be devs. I said they can't. Am I wrong in saying that not 100% of this community should be allowed to put input into something that could be make or break later? I want the game the devs promised, not the game Focusedwolf and every other numbskull out there wants them to make for them. Hell, half of Focusedwolf's ideas are "LETS MAKE FACEHUGGERS" or "LETS MAKE XENOMORPHS" or "ALGEBRAIC." And I sure as hell don't want 30 topics on the same damn subject. That's my point. Keep it to one thread, and quit complaining when the devs don't care about your super cool ideas from that one movie you saw.
And as for treating people like people? That ship has sailed. I tried apologizing. Every time I get out, you keep pulling me in.
<!--quoteo(post=1797751:date=Sep 6 2010, 06:18 PM:name=Walfisch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Walfisch @ Sep 6 2010, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://kotaku.com/5626214/what-do-game-developers-know-about-real-guns" target="_blank">http://kotaku.com/5626214/what-do-game-dev...about-real-guns</a> So no, weapon proficiency isn't necessary. Thanks for playing the game. The door's over there. You can let yourself out.
...what? So your example of how you're Dev material is because you know what just about anyone who spends a week on a subject knows, which qualifies you for Dev material. Wow, you bridged the gap between C++ C# and DirectShow? WOW. I mean, sure, directshow is a library that is available on both C# and C++, but since you put it together to make a semi-coherent sentence, WOW man. Just wow. Just for the icing on the cake, thanks for saying Humanities classes are hard. I would never have thought that anyone could use the word hard to define a humanities class. You are an inspiration to us all. You guys really think UWE just skate by on fairies and simple knowledge.
Anyways, thanks, I'll go back to using you as an example now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is going to be long so forgive the semi-off-topicness...
Yes i did say 85% of the people here, not 90% or anything like that. Sure someone that has actual game making experience could hit the ground running faster then me, but that's not to say that ALL dev work = working on the game engine, and you don't need to be a super game-making genius to contribute. For example, their is support tools to create, maintain, and debug, and tons of artwork to fabricate, and thousands of lines of lua script to write and document etc etc.
Weapon experience is important. In the most limited way it would help the guy making the weapon sounds, because quite honestly youtube (and probably all gun videos in general) are often a bad source for this. It also helps to have a sense of recoil, and properly conveying the WEIGHT of the gun, in the weapon and player animations. Also if their's any chance that some realism is appropriate, then it would help to know exactly what the appropriate range is for a particular class of weapon should <u>FEEL</u> like, and how it should group (how big the cone of fires is) at distances closer and farther then the maximum effective range. OR you can say ###### IT we don't have the time or interest to create anything other then pop-gun sounding sniper-accurate weapons, and maybe just maybe a community consisting entirely of 10 year olds won't ever be bothered by this.
It was a while since i dealt with DirectShow (wikipedia has this nice quote: "It is regarded as one of Microsoft's most complex development libraries/APIs", but if i remember right, i needed to create a custom (.net friendly) wrapper for Directshow (where C++/CLI was the language of choice for this), while at the same time making use of a custom capture-filter (C++) that i wrote and had to learn to shoe-horn this class into the CLI code, plus at the same time learning this CLI language, + a couple weeks of research to figure out how to specify capture resolution and exposure rate for the logitech webcam we were using, [where NONE of the nice little wrapper projects people post on the internet were capable of any of this... all of the tricks came from reading logitechs dev forum]. Also i'd like to add that i'd say ALL of the microsoft example code pertaining to DShow seems to lack proper practices in terms of error checking, memory freeing, etc so that made it more work to <u>learn</u>. Bottom line is depending on what you want to do, if DirectShow appears as a requirement, then prepare for about a month of research, website-searching, and very slow coding, unless of course you can find someone thats already been there or by some miracle find code on the internet that accomplishes all that you want.
You see the DShow-webcam-capture stuff was part of a larger senior project where we were trying to control a computer with a sort of sign language (LEDs mounted on gloves + recognition of gestures). Did i mention it only took me a week to develop a VERY fast blob-detection algorithm, it's a couple thousand lines because of how i had to optimize it for speed. [no i didn't create it from scratch... it started with a basic description + drawing i found on some website... and then i had to fix all the problems with this algorithm that the original author encountered, but failed to resolve], + create a program from scratch for the express purpose of testing this algorithm and optimizing it (maybe i'll get a screenshot of this). The best thing about it was the fact it was <u>non-recursive</u> which is requirement when writing CUDA code (ya multi-core gpu acceleration was the idea, and that platform doesn't allow recursive algorithms... which is the "easy" first way people assume they will do blob detection... but edge-tracing is like 99% faster then that!).
Unfortunately it took me too long to learn the CUDA platform, (it requires two computers to debug, or two gpus, or you can do a limited software simulation), and i think their was a problem between the C++/CLI and the C++ wrapper of the C cuda code, and how the nvidia compiler was treating the project. In the end me and my team passed, and i learned a lot, the end.
<!--quoteo(post=1797751:date=Sep 6 2010, 06:18 PM:name=Walfisch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Walfisch @ Sep 6 2010, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://kotaku.com/5626214/what-do-game-developers-know-about-real-guns" target="_blank">http://kotaku.com/5626214/what-do-game-dev...about-real-guns</a> WOW man. Just wow. Just for the icing on the cake, thanks for saying Humanities classes are hard. I would never have thought that anyone could use the word hard to define a humanities class. You are an inspiration to us all. You guys really think UWE just skate by on fairies and simple knowledge.
Anyways, thanks, I'll go back to using you as an example now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doing math, circuit analysis, and programming (in assembly even) are all more fun and interesting then writing a report about anything not associated with those topics xD
But this semester is differant...
My "humanities" teacher, besides the fact that he is a pathological liar or something (he did say "i tend to lie a lot so don't believe anything i say", and he was being sincere...), and wow found this online [chronic lying in adults is often a manifestation of antisocial personality disorder (also known as sociopathy)], who likes to say random stories (interrupting the book discussion which we were in the middle of, which he started) to say something insane like about "how hard it is to get someone fired.... you have to document his daily routine.... or you can goto K-mart and buy a gun [where k-mart doesn't actually sell guns from what i know of the store]. Seriously this guy is a fruit-loop.
O ya, after a 30 minute speech about why we shouldn't plagiarize, he tells us this story (or maybe he was lying), that the students that go to Annapolis teach themselves, where the teacher is only present in the room as an observer of the class. Ya whatever, but that is the reason he wants US to teach the class <u>to the class</u>, while he just watches (and interrupts with weird stories about building bridges and ######, whenever he gets bored). So yes it's one hard as hell humanities course, that is most definitely harder then any other engineering/math course i have taken, because of how hard it will be to seriously interpret the book to the point that we can teach it to the class!!!. Maybe i can get the teacher committed.
It amazes me how you manage to be a proficient mathematician, programmer, electronic engineer and humanist, yet can't manage to convey properly your thoughts. It's painful to read, and I'm supposed to be well aware of programming basics.
Besides, what does that have to do anything? If it takes you two weeks to figure out how to set the resolution of a webcam, and that for you, research consists of finding code on Internet, then I regret to say you're not dev worthy material.
<!--quoteo(post=1797816:date=Sep 7 2010, 02:07 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Sep 7 2010, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>Besides, what does that have to do anything?</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't start this. See post 56 and 57. I guess my sense of pride kicked in.
<!--quoteo(post=1797816:date=Sep 7 2010, 02:07 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Sep 7 2010, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it takes you two weeks to figure out how to set the resolution of a webcam, and that for you, <u>research consists of finding code on Internet</u>, then I regret to say you're not dev worthy material.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Go find me a developer that <u>doesn't</u> use the internet for research. The requirements are they must have never used a website like codeproject or MSDN.
2. With regards to this particular challenge you brought up, the situation dealt with a particular family of webcam made by Logitech, where the vast collection of information that Logitech publishes for developers is limited to a few header files and a pdf or two, and i think a html page. I didn't have the time to hardcore learn everything about DirectShow. Only what i needed to know was more then enough, and if microsoft follows the practice of publishing short c++ code snippets to help you use DirectShow (plus a full-blown opensource DShow-Capture program in one of the windows sdks, which was a big help when i started this project), then i can't see what's wrong with learning from the code examples of other people.
I can't even be bothered to copy Focusedwolf's rant since half the ###### he says doesn't make any sense. Just a brief breakdown of DURRR though 1) Only an idiot would use "CONE OF FIRE" as their gun proficiency knowledge. I can't be bothered to laugh at either your shotgun or machine gun hunting experience. 2) I refer you back to the "good games have been made by devs with no gun experience." 3) Complex libraries != hard. 4) Libraries don't do memory checking for you. That's why exception handling was created. And the direct series has an entire tree dedicated to exception handling. Not it's fault you didn't know to call. 5) Why the hell were you using CUDA, directshow, and some random description off the internet. Sounds like you made more work for yourself. Also not really a DURR moment, just don't get why you would bother with CUDA when you've already dragged your balls over gesture computing. 6) Engineering classes are not hard. They're tedious as ######, but not hard. 7) Math can be hard for some people, I guess. I love physics. Also The Money Pit. 8) Sounds like a retardedly easy humanities course, and a fairly typical humanities teacher. HURR STORY TIME is not hard. Dumb, but not hard. Where do you go to school, ECPI? 9) The reason logitech doesn't publish their actual code is the same reason 90% of library descriptions don't get published. It's also the reason C programmers can get screwed over. It's the reason header files exist in the first place. It's because an entire program can be written without ever actually bothering to know wtf is going on in their code. Abstraction is a ###### and a slayer of men. 10) You weren't the one to say all the people on the forums could be devs. That was some jackass.
But sorry if I insulted you. Really you seem like a decent person and I'm sorry if you feel offended.
And ssj, I posted exactly what you said. If I misread or misinterpreted, please do show me where.
Well my "real" programming is very limited as it's purely academic, however I have extensively used Matlab. And I, for one, design my own algorithms and code. True, I do copy stuff from the Internet, but they are very specific functionalities ; much like what can be found in libraries. That is nothing like taking over a feature detection program.
And from what you've said ( "I didn't have the time to hardcore learn everything about DirectShow. Only what i needed to know was more then enough" ) you've agreed that you do not master the environment, you learn on the fly. By that logic I'm as much a software engineer as you are. It's not learning the language that's hard, it's knowing how to work with it, and it's not by rummaging through web pages that you can get that knowledge. So ok, you can video capture and detect features on said video. Can you integrate game dev team of UWE's calibre?
I will agree on a partial point that the majority of people on the internet/forums, while they may be extremely proficient gamers, are not cut out to be game developers. Good understanding of what makes good and fun mechanics is something often lost on many individuals. However, almost all of us know when something is unfun (assuming complete picture given). It's just that most can't articulate why or how to fix it.
FocusedWolf I think got distracted with trying to pump out a resume, and he missed the point that that still doesn't qualify him to be a game developer. Knowledge of firearms from real-life experience? Helpful. Programming experience beyond "Hello World" and able to do from scratch development? Kinda a requirement. Ability to identify, implement, and explain good mechanics? CRUCIAL.
Game developer? There's noone hiring "a game developer who knows how to develop games." There are specific roles for development, ranging from engine programming, gameplay programming, scripting, level design, sound design, modelling/animation, etc., etc... there is no mysteriously amalgamated "game developer." This is a myth. Stop arguing about a myth.
<!--quoteo(post=1797832:date=Sep 7 2010, 04:00 PM:name=ssjyoda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjyoda @ Sep 7 2010, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yeah. john romero says he doesn't like guns but still says he has experience with them.. stop picking and choosing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> BB guns and .22s do not a gun experience make. Hey, I've used a super-soaker, nerf gun, an ak-47 airsoft, a .22 and a Bow. I am an expert gunsmith. Thank you for your genius. I feel dumber having ever argued with you. Please stop trolling my thread with your stupidity. Flesh out an idea next time before you speak and maybe you won't be so easily ridiculed.
<!--quoteo(post=1797828:date=Sep 7 2010, 03:30 PM:name=Walfisch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Walfisch @ Sep 7 2010, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Only an idiot would use "CONE OF FIRE" as their gun proficiency knowledge. I can't be bothered to laugh at either your shotgun or machine gun hunting experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If i push the reality button to hard then people freak out saying stuff like "NS is not Americas Army" or something. So i decided to hold back on that and just try to justify a good reason for having weapon experience being that you can recreate the "feel" of guns more accurately in a game. And ya i used the phrase "cone of fire" because this is a game forum, and people could understand this. I would think that minute of angle would be the correct name for "cone of fire", but i figure we keep it simple.
<!--quoteo(post=1797831:date=Sep 7 2010, 03:52 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Sep 7 2010, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you integrate game dev team of UWE's calibre?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They only hire people that are in the San Fransisco area from what i last read on the subject. So the answer is "Impossible" if this is a primary requirement. Otherwise the answer is yes, i'd love to help. Would even consider helping them out for free, as i'm sure many people here would.
<!--quoteo(post=1797819:date=Sep 7 2010, 02:28 PM:name=mayer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mayer @ Sep 7 2010, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I admit, the guy is the cherry on a cake, or something close to that :)
pseudologica phantastica, an evil mental disease, and he's your teacher?
anyway, this topic keeps me busy until we have beta :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1797860:date=Sep 7 2010, 05:31 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Sep 7 2010, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They only hire people that are in the San Fransisco area from what i last read on the subject. So the answer is "Impossible" if this is a primary requirement. Otherwise the answer is yes, i'd love to help. Would even consider helping them out for free, as i'm sure many people here would.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Want to help them out for free and prove that you're awesome and good at everything all at the same time? Make a mod for NS2. Make a level for NS2. I'll be the first to agree that anyone who produces a quality mod has some bite to back up their bark. In fact, mod development is pretty standard resume fodder for a lot of newcomers breaking into the game industry.
So, if any of you are actually interested in proving that you know what makes a good developer, step up. Lua docs are that way --->
<!--quoteo(post=1796666:date=Aug 28 2010, 03:29 PM:name=Wirhe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wirhe @ Aug 28 2010, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These boards were a goldmine when it came to good ideas during NS1. The devs ignored all of it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reminds me of Planetside. Early on some ambitious guys got together a massive design document explaining ways to expand the continental warfare and how to shape assets to allow frontlines to be established. Things like breaking up the whole base warfare thing into smaller assets with distributed effects.
The best gameplay in Planetside were the outdoor battles far away from bases and towers. Epic day-long battles to control a single bridge. We all wanted more of that.
Instead we got Big ###### Robots.
I like to think that developers should always keep an open mind - sometimes you *don't* know what's best for your own product. If you think that sounds crazy, I point to George Lucas. The best Star Wars movies weren't even written by him.
And as for planetside...I miss tribes. No game has ever made me happier than Tribes. Tribes 2 too I suppose. And as for you, wolf, I assume you're somewhere in the Maryland D.C. VA boulevard since your professor brought up whatever it was he was ranting about. Care to work on a mod for NS2? We need an art guy, since I have the art skills of a 4 year old with no arms, legs, and a ham fist for a mouth. I can do stick art like no ones business though.
<!--quoteo(post=1797839:date=Sep 7 2010, 01:36 PM:name=cmc5788)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cmc5788 @ Sep 7 2010, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Game developer? There's noone hiring "a game developer who knows how to develop games." There are specific roles for development, ranging from engine programming, gameplay programming, scripting, level design, sound design, modelling/animation, etc., etc... there is no mysteriously amalgamated "game developer." This is a myth. Stop arguing about a myth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However, most of this thread is about people trying to be a game designer by making gameplay judgements/suggestions.
Also, as I pointed out, I included the requirements to be able to program, indicating that I was aiming at the game developer role that included a heavy programming component.
Yes it is true there are many other aspects, specifically the art design teams which are very different than the programmers. In fact, one could imagine where in a large enough development team the artists and many coders have no clue as to how the gameplay mechanics actually work and only have to deal with what is given to them. UWE doesn't fall under this category, and Riot Games I happen to know makes sure every member of their team can come up with creative characters and mechanics for League of Legends.
But, FW specifically was gunning for the gameplay developer + programmer role, and I was pointing out he still doesn't qualify for such a position.
<!--quoteo(post=1797895:date=Sep 8 2010, 01:14 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Sep 8 2010, 01:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But, FW specifically was gunning for the gameplay developer + programmer role, and I was pointing out he still doesn't qualify for such a position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not actually my intention. If you look back at post #58, i was just trying to say i have skills that could be useful, in response to post #56 & #57.
And at the start of post #74, i was sort of hinting at the the low-profile grunt sections of the work, instead of "gameplay developer + programmer role".
<!--quoteo(post=1797807:date=Sep 7 2010, 01:42 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Sep 7 2010, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes i did say 85% of the people here, not 90% or anything like that. Sure someone that has actual game making experience could hit the ground running faster then me, but that's not to say that ALL dev work = working on the game engine, and you don't need to be a super game-making genius to contribute. <u>For example, their is support tools to create, maintain, and debug, and tons of artwork to fabricate, and thousands of lines of lua script to write and document etc etc</u>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1797992:date=Sep 8 2010, 07:08 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Sep 8 2010, 07:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797992"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not actually my intention. If you look back at post #58, i was just trying to say i have skills that could be useful, in response to post #56 & #57.
And at the start of post #74, i was sort of hinting at the the low-profile grunt sections of the work, instead of "gameplay developer + programmer role".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I heard they were looking to pay somebody to spam the forums all day with useless bs.
Comments
In any case, the key sentence here is:
"Not every game developer who makes games with firearms has handled an actual weapon, just like not every film director who makes movies with guns has handled a real gun."
Useful? Probably. Necessary? Certainly not, especially in a space shooter. NS2 is not America's Army.
At least you corrected yourself, because otherwise
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->weapon proficiency IS in fact necessary...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
would come off as devs must know guns or they can't be devs. I would assume a good portion of gun game developers have no idea how a gun works or have ever fired one. Hell, I'd bet it just on the fact that noone seems to know what recoil is.
Simple example, and remember this is an example, many hollywood studios pay to send actors off to firing ranges, or boot camp, or whatever would help them better to get into character. The same holds true for a game developer. I you're developing weapons in a game world, you better have had some experience to draw on to make a better experience. Those developers that think they can get away with it, don't develop very good games.
To say that being proficient is NOT a skill that a dev would benefit greatly from is flat out wrong.
Also way to imply Doom and Quake weren't good games because the developer never shot a gun.
I prepaid because of years of enjoyment of NS. I trust the development team to come through and eventually reward us all with a great game.
The forums are a good place to blow off steam until NS2 becomes playable. It is also a place to find good ideas from a very talented community. It’s going to be a while before the gamma version so report any bugs you find (and funnies like floating armories), keep up with the forums and be patient.
For Dog’s sake be patient.
its good you have your own opinion from as you say working in the game community.. so do many other people on these boards, myself included. though you have no reason or right to treat people like they are less than you. To me you sound like a lil 12 yr old kid getting his kicks off.
its good you have your own opinion from as you say working in the game community.. so do many other people on these boards, myself included. though you have no reason or right to treat people like they are less than you. To me you sound like a lil 12 yr old kid getting his kicks off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Sep 7 2010, 02:00 AM:name=ssjyoda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjyoda @ Sep 7 2010, 02:00 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Those developers that think they can get away with it, don't develop very good games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
John Romero quote (guy who made Doom and Quake)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, I'm afraid of guns. If there's a gun around, there is the possibility that someone's going to get killed or shot. I just do not want to be around them. Those are real. The ones that are in games are fake. They're fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You, just for emphasis again
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Sep 7 2010, 02:00 AM:name=ssjyoda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjyoda @ Sep 7 2010, 02:00 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Those developers that think they can get away with it, don't develop very good games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where did I twist your words?
Also you're still saying it's necessary. Think I disproved that. I didn't agree with you. I said it's nice if they do; Didn't say it's necessary. Maybe just bad vocabulary choice on your part? I'm willing to let it go.
And how'd we get here anyways? Because I insulted Focusedwolf? Someone said everyone on these boards could be devs. I said they can't. Am I wrong in saying that not 100% of this community should be allowed to put input into something that could be make or break later? I want the game the devs promised, not the game Focusedwolf and every other numbskull out there wants them to make for them. Hell, half of Focusedwolf's ideas are "LETS MAKE FACEHUGGERS" or "LETS MAKE XENOMORPHS" or "ALGEBRAIC." And I sure as hell don't want 30 topics on the same damn subject. That's my point. Keep it to one thread, and quit complaining when the devs don't care about your super cool ideas from that one movie you saw.
And as for treating people like people? That ship has sailed. I tried apologizing. Every time I get out, you keep pulling me in.
So no, weapon proficiency isn't necessary. Thanks for playing the game. The door's over there. You can let yourself out.
...what? So your example of how you're Dev material is because you know what just about anyone who spends a week on a subject knows, which qualifies you for Dev material. Wow, you bridged the gap between C++ C# and DirectShow? WOW. I mean, sure, directshow is a library that is available on both C# and C++, but since you put it together to make a semi-coherent sentence, WOW man. Just wow. Just for the icing on the cake, thanks for saying Humanities classes are hard. I would never have thought that anyone could use the word hard to define a humanities class. You are an inspiration to us all. You guys really think UWE just skate by on fairies and simple knowledge.
Anyways, thanks, I'll go back to using you as an example now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is going to be long so forgive the semi-off-topicness...
Yes i did say 85% of the people here, not 90% or anything like that. Sure someone that has actual game making experience could hit the ground running faster then me, but that's not to say that ALL dev work = working on the game engine, and you don't need to be a super game-making genius to contribute. For example, their is support tools to create, maintain, and debug, and tons of artwork to fabricate, and thousands of lines of lua script to write and document etc etc.
Weapon experience is important. In the most limited way it would help the guy making the weapon sounds, because quite honestly youtube (and probably all gun videos in general) are often a bad source for this. It also helps to have a sense of recoil, and properly conveying the WEIGHT of the gun, in the weapon and player animations. Also if their's any chance that some realism is appropriate, then it would help to know exactly what the appropriate range is for a particular class of weapon should <u>FEEL</u> like, and how it should group (how big the cone of fires is) at distances closer and farther then the maximum effective range. OR you can say ###### IT we don't have the time or interest to create anything other then pop-gun sounding sniper-accurate weapons, and maybe just maybe a community consisting entirely of 10 year olds won't ever be bothered by this.
It was a while since i dealt with DirectShow (wikipedia has this nice quote: "It is regarded as one of Microsoft's most complex development libraries/APIs", but if i remember right, i needed to create a custom (.net friendly) wrapper for Directshow (where C++/CLI was the language of choice for this), while at the same time making use of a custom capture-filter (C++) that i wrote and had to learn to shoe-horn this class into the CLI code, plus at the same time learning this CLI language, + a couple weeks of research to figure out how to specify capture resolution and exposure rate for the logitech webcam we were using, [where NONE of the nice little wrapper projects people post on the internet were capable of any of this... all of the tricks came from reading logitechs dev forum]. Also i'd like to add that i'd say ALL of the microsoft example code pertaining to DShow seems to lack proper practices in terms of error checking, memory freeing, etc so that made it more work to <u>learn</u>. Bottom line is depending on what you want to do, if DirectShow appears as a requirement, then prepare for about a month of research, website-searching, and very slow coding, unless of course you can find someone thats already been there or by some miracle find code on the internet that accomplishes all that you want.
You see the DShow-webcam-capture stuff was part of a larger senior project where we were trying to control a computer with a sort of sign language (LEDs mounted on gloves + recognition of gestures). Did i mention it only took me a week to develop a VERY fast blob-detection algorithm, it's a couple thousand lines because of how i had to optimize it for speed. [no i didn't create it from scratch... it started with a basic description + drawing i found on some website... and then i had to fix all the problems with this algorithm that the original author encountered, but failed to resolve], + create a program from scratch for the express purpose of testing this algorithm and optimizing it (maybe i'll get a screenshot of this). The best thing about it was the fact it was <u>non-recursive</u> which is requirement when writing CUDA code (ya multi-core gpu acceleration was the idea, and that platform doesn't allow recursive algorithms... which is the "easy" first way people assume they will do blob detection... but edge-tracing is like 99% faster then that!).
Unfortunately it took me too long to learn the CUDA platform, (it requires two computers to debug, or two gpus, or you can do a limited software simulation), and i think their was a problem between the C++/CLI and the C++ wrapper of the C cuda code, and how the nvidia compiler was treating the project. In the end me and my team passed, and i learned a lot, the end.
<!--quoteo(post=1797751:date=Sep 6 2010, 06:18 PM:name=Walfisch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Walfisch @ Sep 6 2010, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://kotaku.com/5626214/what-do-game-developers-know-about-real-guns" target="_blank">http://kotaku.com/5626214/what-do-game-dev...about-real-guns</a>
WOW man. Just wow. Just for the icing on the cake, thanks for saying Humanities classes are hard. I would never have thought that anyone could use the word hard to define a humanities class. You are an inspiration to us all. You guys really think UWE just skate by on fairies and simple knowledge.
Anyways, thanks, I'll go back to using you as an example now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doing math, circuit analysis, and programming (in assembly even) are all more fun and interesting then writing a report about anything not associated with those topics xD
But this semester is differant...
My "humanities" teacher, besides the fact that he is a pathological liar or something (he did say "i tend to lie a lot so don't believe anything i say", and he was being sincere...), and wow found this online [chronic lying in adults is often a manifestation of antisocial personality disorder (also known as sociopathy)], who likes to say random stories (interrupting the book discussion which we were in the middle of, which he started) to say something insane like about "how hard it is to get someone fired.... you have to document his daily routine.... or you can goto K-mart and buy a gun [where k-mart doesn't actually sell guns from what i know of the store]. Seriously this guy is a fruit-loop.
O ya, after a 30 minute speech about why we shouldn't plagiarize, he tells us this story (or maybe he was lying), that the students that go to Annapolis teach themselves, where the teacher is only present in the room as an observer of the class. Ya whatever, but that is the reason he wants US to teach the class <u>to the class</u>, while he just watches (and interrupts with weird stories about building bridges and ######, whenever he gets bored). So yes it's one hard as hell humanities course, that is most definitely harder then any other engineering/math course i have taken, because of how hard it will be to seriously interpret the book to the point that we can teach it to the class!!!. Maybe i can get the teacher committed.
Besides, what does that have to do anything? If it takes you two weeks to figure out how to set the resolution of a webcam, and that for you, research consists of finding code on Internet, then I regret to say you're not dev worthy material.
I didn't start this. See post 56 and 57. I guess my sense of pride kicked in.
<!--quoteo(post=1797816:date=Sep 7 2010, 02:07 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Sep 7 2010, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it takes you two weeks to figure out how to set the resolution of a webcam, and that for you, <u>research consists of finding code on Internet</u>, then I regret to say you're not dev worthy material.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Go find me a developer that <u>doesn't</u> use the internet for research. The requirements are they must have never used a website like codeproject or MSDN.
2. With regards to this particular challenge you brought up, the situation dealt with a particular family of webcam made by Logitech, where the vast collection of information that Logitech publishes for developers is limited to a few header files and a pdf or two, and i think a html page. I didn't have the time to hardcore learn everything about DirectShow. Only what i needed to know was more then enough, and if microsoft follows the practice of publishing short c++ code snippets to help you use DirectShow (plus a full-blown opensource DShow-Capture program in one of the windows sdks, which was a big help when i started this project), then i can't see what's wrong with learning from the code examples of other people.
pseudologica phantastica, an evil mental disease, and he's your teacher?
anyway, this topic keeps me busy until we have beta :p
1) Only an idiot would use "CONE OF FIRE" as their gun proficiency knowledge. I can't be bothered to laugh at either your shotgun or machine gun hunting experience.
2) I refer you back to the "good games have been made by devs with no gun experience."
3) Complex libraries != hard.
4) Libraries don't do memory checking for you. That's why exception handling was created. And the direct series has an entire tree dedicated to exception handling. Not it's fault you didn't know to call.
5) Why the hell were you using CUDA, directshow, and some random description off the internet. Sounds like you made more work for yourself. Also not really a DURR moment, just don't get why you would bother with CUDA when you've already dragged your balls over gesture computing.
6) Engineering classes are not hard. They're tedious as ######, but not hard.
7) Math can be hard for some people, I guess. I love physics. Also The Money Pit.
8) Sounds like a retardedly easy humanities course, and a fairly typical humanities teacher. HURR STORY TIME is not hard. Dumb, but not hard. Where do you go to school, ECPI?
9) The reason logitech doesn't publish their actual code is the same reason 90% of library descriptions don't get published. It's also the reason C programmers can get screwed over. It's the reason header files exist in the first place. It's because an entire program can be written without ever actually bothering to know wtf is going on in their code. Abstraction is a ###### and a slayer of men.
10) You weren't the one to say all the people on the forums could be devs. That was some jackass.
But sorry if I insulted you. Really you seem like a decent person and I'm sorry if you feel offended.
And ssj, I posted exactly what you said. If I misread or misinterpreted, please do show me where.
And from what you've said ( "I didn't have the time to hardcore learn everything about DirectShow. Only what i needed to know was more then enough" ) you've agreed that you do not master the environment, you learn on the fly. By that logic I'm as much a software engineer as you are. It's not learning the language that's hard, it's knowing how to work with it, and it's not by rummaging through web pages that you can get that knowledge.
So ok, you can video capture and detect features on said video. Can you integrate game dev team of UWE's calibre?
I will agree on a partial point that the majority of people on the internet/forums, while they may be extremely proficient gamers, are not cut out to be game developers. Good understanding of what makes good and fun mechanics is something often lost on many individuals. However, almost all of us know when something is unfun (assuming complete picture given). It's just that most can't articulate why or how to fix it.
FocusedWolf I think got distracted with trying to pump out a resume, and he missed the point that that still doesn't qualify him to be a game developer. Knowledge of firearms from real-life experience? Helpful. Programming experience beyond "Hello World" and able to do from scratch development? Kinda a requirement. Ability to identify, implement, and explain good mechanics? CRUCIAL.
BB guns and .22s do not a gun experience make. Hey, I've used a super-soaker, nerf gun, an ak-47 airsoft, a .22 and a Bow. I am an expert gunsmith. Thank you for your genius. I feel dumber having ever argued with you. Please stop trolling my thread with your stupidity. Flesh out an idea next time before you speak and maybe you won't be so easily ridiculed.
If i push the reality button to hard then people freak out saying stuff like "NS is not Americas Army" or something. So i decided to hold back on that and just try to justify a good reason for having weapon experience being that you can recreate the "feel" of guns more accurately in a game. And ya i used the phrase "cone of fire" because this is a game forum, and people could understand this. I would think that minute of angle would be the correct name for "cone of fire", but i figure we keep it simple.
<!--quoteo(post=1797831:date=Sep 7 2010, 03:52 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Sep 7 2010, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you integrate game dev team of UWE's calibre?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They only hire people that are in the San Fransisco area from what i last read on the subject. So the answer is "Impossible" if this is a primary requirement. Otherwise the answer is yes, i'd love to help. Would even consider helping them out for free, as i'm sure many people here would.
<!--quoteo(post=1797819:date=Sep 7 2010, 02:28 PM:name=mayer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mayer @ Sep 7 2010, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I admit, the guy is the cherry on a cake, or something close to that :)
pseudologica phantastica, an evil mental disease, and he's your teacher?
anyway, this topic keeps me busy until we have beta :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
xD
Want to help them out for free and prove that you're awesome and good at everything all at the same time? Make a mod for NS2. Make a level for NS2. I'll be the first to agree that anyone who produces a quality mod has some bite to back up their bark. In fact, mod development is pretty standard resume fodder for a lot of newcomers breaking into the game industry.
So, if any of you are actually interested in proving that you know what makes a good developer, step up. Lua docs are that way --->
Reminds me of Planetside. Early on some ambitious guys got together a massive design document explaining ways to expand the continental warfare and how to shape assets to allow frontlines to be established. Things like breaking up the whole base warfare thing into smaller assets with distributed effects.
The best gameplay in Planetside were the outdoor battles far away from bases and towers. Epic day-long battles to control a single bridge. We all wanted more of that.
Instead we got Big ###### Robots.
I like to think that developers should always keep an open mind - sometimes you *don't* know what's best for your own product. If you think that sounds crazy, I point to George Lucas. The best Star Wars movies weren't even written by him.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDAPGLO-r4s&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDAPGLO-r4s...feature=related</a>
Chicks dig giant robots.
And as for planetside...I miss tribes. No game has ever made me happier than Tribes. Tribes 2 too I suppose. And as for you, wolf, I assume you're somewhere in the Maryland D.C. VA boulevard since your professor brought up whatever it was he was ranting about. Care to work on a mod for NS2? We need an art guy, since I have the art skills of a 4 year old with no arms, legs, and a ham fist for a mouth. I can do stick art like no ones business though.
However, most of this thread is about people trying to be a game designer by making gameplay judgements/suggestions.
Also, as I pointed out, I included the requirements to be able to program, indicating that I was aiming at the game developer role that included a heavy programming component.
Yes it is true there are many other aspects, specifically the art design teams which are very different than the programmers. In fact, one could imagine where in a large enough development team the artists and many coders have no clue as to how the gameplay mechanics actually work and only have to deal with what is given to them. UWE doesn't fall under this category, and Riot Games I happen to know makes sure every member of their team can come up with creative characters and mechanics for League of Legends.
But, FW specifically was gunning for the gameplay developer + programmer role, and I was pointing out he still doesn't qualify for such a position.
Not actually my intention. If you look back at post #58, i was just trying to say i have skills that could be useful, in response to post #56 & #57.
And at the start of post #74, i was sort of hinting at the the low-profile grunt sections of the work, instead of "gameplay developer + programmer role".
<!--quoteo(post=1797807:date=Sep 7 2010, 01:42 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Sep 7 2010, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes i did say 85% of the people here, not 90% or anything like that. Sure someone that has actual game making experience could hit the ground running faster then me, but that's not to say that ALL dev work = working on the game engine, and you don't need to be a super game-making genius to contribute. <u>For example, their is support tools to create, maintain, and debug, and tons of artwork to fabricate, and thousands of lines of lua script to write and document etc etc</u>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And at the start of post #74, i was sort of hinting at the the low-profile grunt sections of the work, instead of "gameplay developer + programmer role".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I heard they were looking to pay somebody to spam the forums all day with useless bs.