<!--quoteo(post=1789830:date=Jul 30 2010, 08:25 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Jul 30 2010, 08:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not even just that, if you really think about it, so many strategies open up if you have both MAC's and Marines building for example at the start of the game, you could either send out the marines and have MAC's build base, or power build base first with marines, saving res and getting an upgrade sooner. Or you could branch out to control the map, send a squad of marines to one RT and a MAC/marine to another rt, and which ever one survives is where you will build an rt and etc. etc. etc..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep this is what I thought they were initially going to be used for :[
I don't like pressing "e" on a building for 15 seconds to build it. That's boring. Having AI builder bots do the necessary yet boring work is good in my opinion.
The whole adrenaline dilemma of weather to turn around and shoot or keep bulding that teleporter was amazing. Sometimes you could rely on the guys covering your ass while building other times you had to help out. That seems gone. Now it's just IT'S BUILDING SHOOT AT ANYTHING THAT MOVES!
I can see why they use the bots in NS2, but i loved building in NS1.
There was always that moment when your building an RT and you know a skulk is nearby, so you get yourself in position for when he comes around the corner, you come off building and he tests the corner, basically in a game of chicken. It was really good for practicing timings and obviously added the excitement. It's not pressing E, it's everything else thats happening while your pressing E.
I think allowing marines to "build" (hold down e) again would totally ruin the new system and make MACs pointless. That would be sad. The idea has so much potential.
When I first heard about MACs I thought they'd be a back-up option; Commander has all his marines out in the field, but he needs something built back at base, so he calls up a MAC and lets them do it. Turning the base building experience in NS2 into a series of escort missions, that most hated of mission types, strikes me as quite unwise. At least impliment both options.
<!--quoteo(post=1789856:date=Jul 31 2010, 02:21 AM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Jul 31 2010, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I first heard about MACs I thought they'd be a back-up option; Commander has all his marines out in the field, but he needs something built back at base, so he calls up a MAC and lets them do it. Turning the base building experience in NS2 into a series of escort missions, that most hated of mission types, strikes me as quite unwise. At least impliment both options.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THE MOST HATED OF MISSION TYPES. Couldn't agree more.
I believe MACs originally started as a backup option. Giving MACs a bigger role isn't bad, but taking away marine abilities isn't fun either. Someone stated earlier: it makes marines have 2 job - kill skulks and defend MACs.
NS2 is trying to have quick games, however the game has slowed down dramatically since the implementation of MACs being the only ones that can build. I think it has slowed down, can't tell so early in the alpha with so much left to do.
But yes - not allowing marines to build is utter bullshtit. A change needs to be made, because this has drastically taken away from the fun factor...
<!--quoteo(post=1789840:date=Jul 31 2010, 01:52 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jul 31 2010, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of my most intense moments in old ns was pressing e.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm extremely pessimistic at my own ideas, but how about when the MAC is not on an order, turn him into a MAC Personell Assisted Carrying Kit? (MAC P.A.C.K.) This allows the marines to attempt to steathily deploy a MAC at a position the commander may not be aware of, and if the marine is lost on the way, so is the MAC. Along with this would be the "standby" (default) option for MAC control, this disables the MAC PACK option while idle in case the commander wants a position secure before sending the MAC, or keeps marines from dtealing the only MAC the comm can afford at the moment. However, jetpacks and a MAC PACK are not both equippable at the same time.
Another idea along these lines is allowing marines to purchase the MAC PACK, or even better, the MINI plugin (Marine Information Navigational Interface plugin,) which from there, allows a limited menu to the marines on the field to build something, but only if the commander has enabled that option. (Hey, some commanders want things done "their way," and to take that from them would be selfish.)
Please be constructive with the posts in this thread, I'd prefer if it was kept rather clean, none of the "I'm just trying to say you're an idiot" kind of response.
<!--quoteo(post=1789840:date=Jul 31 2010, 01:52 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jul 31 2010, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of my most intense moments in old ns was pressing e.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+3
I'd also like to chime in that "escort missions" are, at least in my opinion, one of the more despised gameplay scenarios of video games. Especially when the "escortee" is an A.I. unit. Again, just my personal opinion on the matter.
Allow marines to carry a MAC. Maybe not have them be able to pick one up (griefing), but have it where the commander can send a MAC to a marine and it folds up and stows away on his back, or have a command that folds it up for the marine to grab. Marines can then ninja into a place (per usual), but instead of building they have to guard the MAC. Tense moments can still happen, especially if the MAC carrier in a two man squad goes down, now he has to defend the thing while the commander maneuvers it for pickup. Now you don't have to jump around like a monkey on crack to look in all directions while building. It still keeps the commander in control of the building process, but gives the player a more active role in the ninja caps we all love.
Possibly as a balance aspect, have the marine drop his pistol to carry the thing.
Allow marines to carry a MAC. Maybe not have them be able to pick one up (griefing), but have it where the commander can send a MAC to a marine and it folds up and stows away on his back, or have a command that folds it up for the marine to grab. Marines can then ninja into a place (per usual), but instead of building they have to guard the MAC. Tense moments can still happen, especially if the MAC carrier in a two man squad goes down, now he has to defend the thing while the commander maneuvers it for pickup. Now you don't have to jump around like a monkey on crack to look in all directions while building. It still keeps the commander in control of the building process, but gives the player a more active role in the ninja caps we all love.
Possibly as a balance aspect, have the marine drop his pistol to carry the thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A similar idea was put forward <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=110709&view=findpost&p=1789876" target="_blank">here</a>. It wouldn't remove MACs, but would help solve part of the problem of pathing and guarding it through the map. Just remember to deploy it.
<!--quoteo(post=1789527:date=Jul 30 2010, 05:10 PM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 30 2010, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no need to have both, you can't please both crowds. I've said it plenty of times this is not about giving or taking away from the marine on the ground it's about making the commanders game more interesting.
In NS1 everyone hated being the commander, at the start of every game there would be "who wants to comm..." then someone would almost have to forfeit their game in order to do something they disliked. The point of the MACs is to make being a commander more rewarding and exciting.
I highly doubt it's going to change, UWE is obviously set on this path.
Deal with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excellent point, building is at best a minor nuisance (immersion?) for some people, while a micro managing commander will enjoy the increased interactivity.
<!--quoteo(post=1789838:date=Jul 30 2010, 07:49 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jul 30 2010, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love the MAC's and Drifters.
I don't like pressing "e" on a building for 15 seconds to build it. That's boring. Having AI builder bots do the necessary yet boring work is good in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Annd guess what, if you have both you still don';t have the build because the MAC's can still do it.. I see absolutely zero negatives to having both marines and MAC's building, only pros.
And Revi.uk, instead of just stating their is no need, can you care to explain it, because if you read the post I have stated reasons why it is needed, among many others.
I also miss the ability to build structures as a marine. Whether or not MAC's stay in the game, I want to be able to build structures. I also want to be able to weld. Having the options to build and weld in addition to fighting are what diversifies and deepens the game. This isnt counterstrike. This is a strategy game. Just like having SCV's, medics, and marines in StarCraft, an NS2 marine team needs players with different roles (or at least performing different actions).
As for the Aliens, although the drifters look cool, I'd like to suggest a totally different commander model. Similar to creep in Starcraft, structures can only be built on Dynamic Infestation. Dynamic Infestation is spread by Gorges every time they drop a Hydra (like creep tumors in SC2). As the DI grows around the Hydra, the alien commander can drop structures. Or more like the commander can raise structures out of the DI. This gives the Gorge a sort of pioneer role while the commander is responsible for overall economy and structures. Also, the commander could heal any aliens standing on DI (and possibly other buffs). This gives the commander plenty of things to do and ties the alien team together. As it is now, the commander just sends the drones around to build things.
I realize it's still early to judge properly, but it <i>seems</i> like sending automated builders out from your CC/Hive takes too much time to build anything on the far side of the map and also takes the fun out of players fighting for a foothold on the edge of their territory.
<!--quoteo(post=1789930:date=Jul 31 2010, 01:32 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Jul 31 2010, 01:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see absolutely zero negatives to having both marines and MAC's building, only pros.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have a differenence of opinion. If marines are allowed to build structures, marines may become the only builders due to meta game even if builder bots are optional.
So both of our desires may not be met in the future even if there are in-game options for both.
<!--quoteo(post=1789943:date=Jul 31 2010, 02:20 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jul 31 2010, 02:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have a differenence of opinion. If marines are allowed to build structures, marines may become the only builders due to meta game even if builder bots are optional.
So both of our desires may not be met in the future even if there are in-game options for both.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not necessarily; it depends on how it's balanced. and if MACs serve their auto-welding purpose well, they will still have a role in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1789943:date=Jul 31 2010, 01:20 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jul 31 2010, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have a differenence of opinion. If marines are allowed to build structures, marines may become the only builders due to meta game even if builder bots are optional.
So both of our desires may not be met in the future even if there are in-game options for both.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically.. if both are in and the people CHOOSE not to use them.. doesn't that kinda tell you something then? IF that was the case in the scenario your trying to create which I highly, highly doubt would ever happen unless the com was new and has no idea he can build robots.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
I think a lot of ppl in here kinda miss the fact that ns2 gameplay is going to be different to ns1 gameplay.
There are no more phasegates, so why would you need someone to ninja behind enemy lines to build something. The only thing left to build are turrets(?) and I don't like the idea of marines spamming turrets towards an enemy node/tech point in order to capture it. Due to the shorter distances, a team is supposed to attack in a group and all those commander controlled units are there to support them. No phasegate needed. So the only purpose of ninjas is to ambush (a retreating lifeform, as marine) or gain some intel on the enemy and, new in ns2, to pick off unprotected drifters/macs.
That doesn't mean I agree with this change, but I'm willing to wait for a proper gameplay build (late alpha/beta) before I really start not to like it.
It just seems to me that with all these changes to things that could be frustrating, game breaking or be exploited occasionally (commander role, building, relocated, and more), they completely forgot that these things also made ns1 so unique and added so much variation and fun to each game and map. Maybe there was no proper solution to get rid of most of the cons without limiting the freedom you had in ns1, we'll see...
All this stuff about ninja building and relocation is based on the NS1 style maps, that had long distances, endless corridors to traverse before getting to res points, and 3 possible hive locations allowing for lots of gameplay based around secretly setting up buildings in one of them.
NS2 maps don't really have any of these features, the devs obviously have something different in mind, and I'm willing to wait until I get to play a few proper games before judging the changes.
Some things I've been thinking about - I imagine the marine/MAC interaction not being so much escort as cover mechanics. EG on game start, marines cover the approaches to marine start for the early skulk rush while MACs get the armory up. Then marines move out to hold down key locations so it's safe for comm to send the MAC thru to cap a res node. I can see a lot more teamwork possibilities if done right.
Also - are IPs in NS2 restricted to being built within range of a comm chair? Could you possibly relo everything except the comm chair - eg on tram you set a few turrets to guard the chair, and the armory, ips and the rest get set up in the double res room.
Well like I've said on another post, this is the only change they've made that I don't agree with. So them changing the game play is fine with me, it is just I am having a very hard time seeing any benefit to this outside of having to worry less about base management or more about killing which to me is a negative aspect. As others have stated, it is that short break up of the action, fighting and playing multiple roles, that keeps things interesting and different.
Another thing is, there is nothing in any action/fps/rpg game that I hate more then escorting, honestly it is my most hated mode, quest, stage or whatever in a game.. a long with timers. That is essentially what this is, and not only that but we have to do it with sieges as well, which I have no opposition with, but can foresee a lot of anger and rage coming from times of escorting some bots to build, and the aliens making priority of killing those robots, leaving the marines.. sitting their worthless because the ONLY thing that can build, died in 4 hits and now well like I said your worthless because you can't do anything but maybe kill a few aliens before dying now because well.. your completely helpless without a robot their to build anything.
Just remember when your raging their helpless, unable to build next to a hive, perfectly healthy and able to.. but can't because the robot you escorted got killed and your objective is now meaningless. Unless you can survive and stay alive until another one comes.. but during that time of waiting, I can imagine getting a little peeved that your sitting RIGHT THERE unable to do anything about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1789953:date=Jul 31 2010, 05:25 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Jul 31 2010, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another thing is, there is nothing in any action/fps/rpg game that I hate more then escorting, honestly it is my most hated mode, quest, stage or whatever in a game.. a long with timers. That is essentially what this is, and not only that but we have to do it with sieges as well, which I have no opposition with, but can foresee a lot of anger and rage coming from times of escorting some bots to build, and the aliens making priority of killing those robots, leaving the marines.. sitting their worthless because the ONLY thing that can build, died in 4 hits and now well like I said your worthless because you can't do anything but maybe kill a few aliens before dying now because well.. your completely helpless without a robot their to build anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said, if done right I don't think this will be escorting, but map control - MAC is operating in a particular area, marines must cover all the approaches.
Main concern I have is that it creates a situation where marines can not afford for aliens to get through their lines. Once any alien gets in melee range of a MAC, it's probably all over for the MAC. In NS1 you could survive a bunch of skulks dropping on your squad's head if you had good aim and dodging skills.
Still, I guess if the MACs have reasonable hit points it should work the same.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1789954:date=Jul 31 2010, 09:33 AM:name=shad3r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shad3r @ Jul 31 2010, 09:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said, if done right I don't think this will be escorting, but map control - MAC is operating in a particular area, marines must cover all the approaches.
Main concern I have is that it creates a situation where marines can not afford for aliens to get through their lines. Once any alien gets in melee range of a MAC, it's probably all over for the MAC. In NS1 you could survive a bunch of skulks dropping on your squad's head if you had good aim and dodging skills.
Still, I guess if the MACs have reasonable hit points it should work the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Valid concern.
I guess that's why vents are mainly supposed to be in alien territory and each corridor/route should have its purpose so players aren't spread all over the map.
<!--quoteo(post=1789954:date=Jul 31 2010, 02:33 AM:name=shad3r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shad3r @ Jul 31 2010, 02:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said, if done right I don't think this will be escorting, but map control - MAC is operating in a particular area, marines must cover all the approaches.
Main concern I have is that it creates a situation where marines can not afford for aliens to get through their lines. Once any alien gets in melee range of a MAC, it's probably all over for the MAC. In NS1 you could survive a bunch of skulks dropping on your squad's head if you had good aim and dodging skills.
Still, I guess if the MACs have reasonable hit points it should work the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yeah that is true, I mean it is hard to really judge at this point, all I can go by is what I've play so far, and as it is now, it's escorting or sending them solo but.. again like I said this really can't judge how the game will end up.
Yeah you could be right, but what I am saying is it can still be that way if both can build.. it's not like marine building makes MAC"s obsolete.. not in the least especially with a good com who can utilized both.. again this only opens up MORE options and strategies not less because ANYTHING you can do with MAC's you can still do with marines building and well obviously more. So if someone can state how this will create less variety, and strategy please post how and give an example.
I haven't read one reasonable counter-argument to why both marine and bots should not be able to both build - given it's balanced accordingly. Marines not being able to build ANYTHING, and becoming escorts just feels too off-kilt for this title.
What I eventually hope they do is not really have to escort them, but kind of have one of them follow your squad around. And for the large part while you don't need them they're either doing nothing or maybe doing something useful as in automatically welding armor or dispensing ammo.
Wow, read half through this thread, lots of good ideas!
I'm sorry but I can't get over the way <b>Revi.uk</b> is talking to everyone. Dude, you are a TROLL. If you want to contribute, do so. What you are doing is looking like a brown noser and annoying people who are trying to help develop an awesome game. I for one LOVE the tension that comes from building that RT and wondering if you are going to have yoru ass bitten off in the next second.
Comments
Yep this is what I thought they were initially going to be used for :[
I don't like pressing "e" on a building for 15 seconds to build it. That's boring. Having AI builder bots do the necessary yet boring work is good in my opinion.
There was always that moment when your building an RT and you know a skulk is nearby, so you get yourself in position for when he comes around the corner, you come off building and he tests the corner, basically in a game of chicken. It was really good for practicing timings and obviously added the excitement. It's not pressing E, it's everything else thats happening while your pressing E.
THE MOST HATED OF MISSION TYPES. Couldn't agree more.
I believe MACs originally started as a backup option. Giving MACs a bigger role isn't bad, but taking away marine abilities isn't fun either. Someone stated earlier: it makes marines have 2 job - kill skulks and defend MACs.
NS2 is trying to have quick games, however the game has slowed down dramatically since the implementation of MACs being the only ones that can build. I think it has slowed down, can't tell so early in the alpha with so much left to do.
But yes - not allowing marines to build is utter bullshtit. A change needs to be made, because this has drastically taken away from the fun factor...
<!--quoteo(post=1789840:date=Jul 31 2010, 01:52 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jul 31 2010, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of my most intense moments in old ns was pressing e.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Another idea along these lines is allowing marines to purchase the MAC PACK, or even better, the MINI plugin (Marine Information Navigational Interface plugin,) which from there, allows a limited menu to the marines on the field to build something, but only if the commander has enabled that option. (Hey, some commanders want things done "their way," and to take that from them would be selfish.)
Just a thought, probably a fail though.
Please be constructive with the posts in this thread, I'd prefer if it was kept rather clean, none of the "I'm just trying to say you're an idiot" kind of response.
+3
I'd also like to chime in that "escort missions" are, at least in my opinion, one of the more despised gameplay scenarios of video games. Especially when the "escortee" is an A.I. unit. Again, just my personal opinion on the matter.
Allow marines to carry a MAC. Maybe not have them be able to pick one up (griefing), but have it where the commander can send a MAC to a marine and it folds up and stows away on his back, or have a command that folds it up for the marine to grab. Marines can then ninja into a place (per usual), but instead of building they have to guard the MAC. Tense moments can still happen, especially if the MAC carrier in a two man squad goes down, now he has to defend the thing while the commander maneuvers it for pickup. Now you don't have to jump around like a monkey on crack to look in all directions while building. It still keeps the commander in control of the building process, but gives the player a more active role in the ninja caps we all love.
Possibly as a balance aspect, have the marine drop his pistol to carry the thing.
Allow marines to carry a MAC. Maybe not have them be able to pick one up (griefing), but have it where the commander can send a MAC to a marine and it folds up and stows away on his back, or have a command that folds it up for the marine to grab. Marines can then ninja into a place (per usual), but instead of building they have to guard the MAC. Tense moments can still happen, especially if the MAC carrier in a two man squad goes down, now he has to defend the thing while the commander maneuvers it for pickup. Now you don't have to jump around like a monkey on crack to look in all directions while building. It still keeps the commander in control of the building process, but gives the player a more active role in the ninja caps we all love.
Possibly as a balance aspect, have the marine drop his pistol to carry the thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A similar idea was put forward <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=110709&view=findpost&p=1789876" target="_blank">here</a>. It wouldn't remove MACs, but would help solve part of the problem of pathing and guarding it through the map. Just remember to deploy it.
In NS1 everyone hated being the commander, at the start of every game there would be "who wants to comm..." then someone would almost have to forfeit their game in order to do something they disliked. The point of the MACs is to make being a commander more rewarding and exciting.
I highly doubt it's going to change, UWE is obviously set on this path.
Deal with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excellent point, building is at best a minor nuisance (immersion?) for some people, while a micro managing commander will enjoy the increased interactivity.
I don't like pressing "e" on a building for 15 seconds to build it. That's boring. Having AI builder bots do the necessary yet boring work is good in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Annd guess what, if you have both you still don';t have the build because the MAC's can still do it.. I see absolutely zero negatives to having both marines and MAC's building, only pros.
And Revi.uk, instead of just stating their is no need, can you care to explain it, because if you read the post I have stated reasons why it is needed, among many others.
I also miss the ability to build structures as a marine. Whether or not MAC's stay in the game, I want to be able to build structures. I also want to be able to weld. Having the options to build and weld in addition to fighting are what diversifies and deepens the game. This isnt counterstrike. This is a strategy game. Just like having SCV's, medics, and marines in StarCraft, an NS2 marine team needs players with different roles (or at least performing different actions).
As for the Aliens, although the drifters look cool, I'd like to suggest a totally different commander model. Similar to creep in Starcraft, structures can only be built on Dynamic Infestation. Dynamic Infestation is spread by Gorges every time they drop a Hydra (like creep tumors in SC2). As the DI grows around the Hydra, the alien commander can drop structures. Or more like the commander can raise structures out of the DI. This gives the Gorge a sort of pioneer role while the commander is responsible for overall economy and structures. Also, the commander could heal any aliens standing on DI (and possibly other buffs). This gives the commander plenty of things to do and ties the alien team together. As it is now, the commander just sends the drones around to build things.
I realize it's still early to judge properly, but it <i>seems</i> like sending automated builders out from your CC/Hive takes too much time to build anything on the far side of the map and also takes the fun out of players fighting for a foothold on the edge of their territory.
We have a differenence of opinion. If marines are allowed to build structures, marines may become the only builders due to meta game even if builder bots are optional.
So both of our desires may not be met in the future even if there are in-game options for both.
So both of our desires may not be met in the future even if there are in-game options for both.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not necessarily; it depends on how it's balanced. and if MACs serve their auto-welding purpose well, they will still have a role in the game.
So both of our desires may not be met in the future even if there are in-game options for both.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically.. if both are in and the people CHOOSE not to use them.. doesn't that kinda tell you something then? IF that was the case in the scenario your trying to create which I highly, highly doubt would ever happen unless the com was new and has no idea he can build robots.
There are no more phasegates, so why would you need someone to ninja behind enemy lines to build something. The only thing left to build are turrets(?) and I don't like the idea of marines spamming turrets towards an enemy node/tech point in order to capture it.
Due to the shorter distances, a team is supposed to attack in a group and all those commander controlled units are there to support them. No phasegate needed.
So the only purpose of ninjas is to ambush (a retreating lifeform, as marine) or gain some intel on the enemy and, new in ns2, to pick off unprotected drifters/macs.
That doesn't mean I agree with this change, but I'm willing to wait for a proper gameplay build (late alpha/beta) before I really start not to like it.
It just seems to me that with all these changes to things that could be frustrating, game breaking or be exploited occasionally (commander role, building, relocated, and more), they completely forgot that these things also made ns1 so unique and added so much variation and fun to each game and map.
Maybe there was no proper solution to get rid of most of the cons without limiting the freedom you had in ns1, we'll see...
All this stuff about ninja building and relocation is based on the NS1 style maps, that had long distances, endless corridors to traverse before getting to res points, and 3 possible hive locations allowing for lots of gameplay based around secretly setting up buildings in one of them.
NS2 maps don't really have any of these features, the devs obviously have something different in mind, and I'm willing to wait until I get to play a few proper games before judging the changes.
Some things I've been thinking about - I imagine the marine/MAC interaction not being so much escort as cover mechanics. EG on game start, marines cover the approaches to marine start for the early skulk rush while MACs get the armory up. Then marines move out to hold down key locations so it's safe for comm to send the MAC thru to cap a res node. I can see a lot more teamwork possibilities if done right.
Also - are IPs in NS2 restricted to being built within range of a comm chair? Could you possibly relo everything except the comm chair - eg on tram you set a few turrets to guard the chair, and the armory, ips and the rest get set up in the double res room.
Another thing is, there is nothing in any action/fps/rpg game that I hate more then escorting, honestly it is my most hated mode, quest, stage or whatever in a game.. a long with timers. That is essentially what this is, and not only that but we have to do it with sieges as well, which I have no opposition with, but can foresee a lot of anger and rage coming from times of escorting some bots to build, and the aliens making priority of killing those robots, leaving the marines.. sitting their worthless because the ONLY thing that can build, died in 4 hits and now well like I said your worthless because you can't do anything but maybe kill a few aliens before dying now because well.. your completely helpless without a robot their to build anything.
Just remember when your raging their helpless, unable to build next to a hive, perfectly healthy and able to.. but can't because the robot you escorted got killed and your objective is now meaningless. Unless you can survive and stay alive until another one comes.. but during that time of waiting, I can imagine getting a little peeved that your sitting RIGHT THERE unable to do anything about it.
Like I said, if done right I don't think this will be escorting, but map control - MAC is operating in a particular area, marines must cover all the approaches.
Main concern I have is that it creates a situation where marines can not afford for aliens to get through their lines. Once any alien gets in melee range of a MAC, it's probably all over for the MAC. In NS1 you could survive a bunch of skulks dropping on your squad's head if you had good aim and dodging skills.
Still, I guess if the MACs have reasonable hit points it should work the same.
Main concern I have is that it creates a situation where marines can not afford for aliens to get through their lines. Once any alien gets in melee range of a MAC, it's probably all over for the MAC. In NS1 you could survive a bunch of skulks dropping on your squad's head if you had good aim and dodging skills.
Still, I guess if the MACs have reasonable hit points it should work the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Valid concern.
I guess that's why vents are mainly supposed to be in alien territory and each corridor/route should have its purpose so players aren't spread all over the map.
Main concern I have is that it creates a situation where marines can not afford for aliens to get through their lines. Once any alien gets in melee range of a MAC, it's probably all over for the MAC. In NS1 you could survive a bunch of skulks dropping on your squad's head if you had good aim and dodging skills.
Still, I guess if the MACs have reasonable hit points it should work the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yeah that is true, I mean it is hard to really judge at this point, all I can go by is what I've play so far, and as it is now, it's escorting or sending them solo but.. again like I said this really can't judge how the game will end up.
Yeah you could be right, but what I am saying is it can still be that way if both can build.. it's not like marine building makes MAC"s obsolete.. not in the least especially with a good com who can utilized both.. again this only opens up MORE options and strategies not less because ANYTHING you can do with MAC's you can still do with marines building and well obviously more. So if someone can state how this will create less variety, and strategy please post how and give an example.
I'm sorry but I can't get over the way <b>Revi.uk</b> is talking to everyone. Dude, you are a TROLL. If you want to contribute, do so. What you are doing is looking like a brown noser and annoying people who are trying to help develop an awesome game. I for one LOVE the tension that comes from building that RT and wondering if you are going to have yoru ass bitten off in the next second.
Please dude, quit trolling.