I'm a little disappointed that marines will no longer be building structures...like many of the others here, for me making the marines responsible for getting the structures up was one of the things that differentiated NS from other shooters.
However, I'll reserve judgment until the game is in a more playable state. For now, I don't think i'm gonna like waiting for these slow, dumb AI robots to meander their way over to where I want them, no doubt constantly getting lost on the way, hung up on corners and obstacles, and wandering into enemy territory. But we'll see.
Has anyone actually had issues with the bots pathing in game?
I don't mean them getting out of the map, or not building when you tell them to, but taking a crazy route to get from A to B?
Flayra posted the other day about the pathing working well, and I haven't seen any issues with it in game. Also, stopping them wandering into enemy territory is pretty easy - the game already knows which team controls each area via the Power Grid/Infestation status. The pathing function for the builders can take this into account when planning a route - you just assign enemy controlled areas a high cost in the pathfinding code, and it will automatically build paths that avoid them, taking the long way round to stay in friendly territory.
As Power Grid and DI aren't in the alpha yet, bots probably aren't paying attention to it when pathing, but it is a trivial thing to add.
Yeah the pathing is actually well done and I'm sure will only get better. Now I don't want anyone getting me wrong I love the MAC's I would just like to see both marine and MAC building. Although like others have stated it is hard to judge how it will play out from this point because it is only alpha and so much of the game isn't available to us, that is why this is really a hard topic to debate as of now. But just going by what I can assume, played from alpha, read, experienced from NS1, and mapping out strategies in my head I would, at this point rather see both options available but who knows perhaps this way is better in the end.
<!--quoteo(post=1789983:date=Jul 31 2010, 09:45 AM:name=shad3r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shad3r @ Jul 31 2010, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Has anyone actually had issues with the bots pathing in game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Works perfectly on ns2_tram, but not at all on one of the other, I forget which. Couldn't get MACs out of the marine spawn, or drifters out of the hive room, without sort of wiggling them around a lot and trying to order them to different kinds of floor or elevations. When I tried to build with either they'd either not move or go to the noted location, sink to the floor and do nothing...
<!--quoteo(post=1789760:date=Jul 31 2010, 08:22 AM:name=scott.exe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (scott.exe @ Jul 31 2010, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really hope they dont change the macs, because i think they will create more interaction between coms and marines. I wanna see it play out.
I will cry if they take out the builders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most of us are not suggesting to take out the builders, we just don't want to be completely dependent on them like we are now.
Whether they create more interaction with marines is highly debatable considering there's a bot in between the two roles now, as opposed to direct teamwork. I'd rather have the option of carrying out a build order myself than simply following a bot around guarding it while it does it's business.
<!--quoteo(post=1789760:date=Jul 31 2010, 08:22 AM:name=scott.exe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (scott.exe @ Jul 31 2010, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you could help the bot build faster, meta game would evolve to that being the standard, if im chilling next to a bot thats building something the com would yell at me to help it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your concern for meta gaming seems specific to the suggestion of speeding up build time, which is only just an idea thrown out as a possible way to further distinguish players from bots in the building role.
<!--quoteo(post=1789760:date=Jul 31 2010, 08:22 AM:name=scott.exe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (scott.exe @ Jul 31 2010, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So theres no way to please both crowds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That pessimistic assumption has already been made, still without backing.
<!--quoteo(post=1789807:date=Jul 31 2010, 09:49 AM:name=TempesT487)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TempesT487 @ Jul 31 2010, 09:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand how building the commanders structure is such an involving experience. If you think staring at a structure and holding E was an involving experience then defending the commanders weldbots should be more so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Revi.uk basically said the same thing, what you both seem to be overlooking is that it's not about holding down a button it's about having the ability to build yourself without relying on bots and actually following out an engineering order straight from the commander. You might not of appreciated that in NS1 but we did and we miss it now and don't believe it has to be sacrificed. The bots should just be a supporting tool or another option when players won't listen.
<!--quoteo(post=1789807:date=Jul 31 2010, 09:49 AM:name=TempesT487)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TempesT487 @ Jul 31 2010, 09:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason for this change is to give the commander more control of the battle<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The commander still has control if players can build, he has to place structures himself first remember.
<!--quoteo(post=1789838:date=Jul 31 2010, 10:49 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jul 31 2010, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like pressing "e" on a building for 15 seconds to build it. That's boring. Having AI builder bots do the necessary yet boring work is good in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No ones saying you should be forced to build, if you find it boring go shoot some stuff. Don't confuse our request to maintain the ability to build with removing the AI builder either.
<!--quoteo(post=1789854:date=Jul 31 2010, 11:19 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jul 31 2010, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think allowing marines to "build" (hold down e) again would totally ruin the new system and make MACs pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How would it ruin the new system? How would it make MACs pointless? Have you read the whole thread?
There are different advantages between using bots and using players to complete tasks.
If there's such a discussion to let the players do the building, then just let the commander assign an marine with an exo-skeleton (or whatever) that provides the same functionality as the builder-bot. Upon death, the exoskeleton is dropped so another player can pick it up, but it can also easily be destroyed by an alien when it lies on the ground.
Effectively the player becomes one (with all the benefits of being a marine) but maybe at a slight cost of some sort such as slight movement impair and res-cost for the commander to place <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->[1]<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. In commander view, the player is then selected and works the same way as a builder-bot that can be assigned to build a building. And for the player he sees a ghost-image of the building to be constructed and can then build it at that location.
That way there's MACs that can do the job the automated way in-base or in the near vicinity (or simply if the marines are just too dumb to accept the role), and for offensive and squad-movement you can just cut out the bot in between and go with a player.
And to further make it an option the player that the commander wants to become a builder for the team can get the option of declining - if he wants to - when the request is made.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->[1]<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> - Speculatively, it could be same cost as a MAC. Then it's only logical to use the MAC-exo on a marine when it's likely to get into danger or die in the process (such as when attacking), and when it's only for building inside bases then it's better to free a player by using the MACs instead.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=1789983:date=Jul 31 2010, 09:45 AM:name=shad3r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shad3r @ Jul 31 2010, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Has anyone actually had issues with the bots pathing in game?
I don't mean them getting out of the map, or not building when you tell them to, but taking a crazy route to get from A to B?
Flayra posted the other day about the pathing working well, and I haven't seen any issues with it in game. Also, stopping them wandering into enemy territory is pretty easy - the game already knows which team controls each area via the Power Grid/Infestation status. The pathing function for the builders can take this into account when planning a route - you just assign enemy controlled areas a high cost in the pathfinding code, and it will automatically build paths that avoid them, taking the long way round to stay in friendly territory.
As Power Grid and DI aren't in the alpha yet, bots probably aren't paying attention to it when pathing, but it is a trivial thing to add.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No not at all, in fact the bots have remarkably good pathing as far as I can tell for maps this complex and such an early stage. It also wasn't on tram, it was one what I think was one of the firing range maps or possibly a custom map, familiar but can't remember what it was exactly.
Hence my confusion about everyone saying that pathing will be terrible and ruin the game.
The bots move so quickly and efficiently that I keep losing them due to them being further ahead than I thought.
I also want to bring up this suggestion I made: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=110420" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=110420</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1785856:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:55 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 27 2010, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1785856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Was thinking about builder bots and thought it might be rather helpful if you could assign them to follow a player or squad and help them out. Basically they have the player set as their waypoint, they try to stay close to them at all times.
In addition, this idea should be expanded on by allowing bots in this mode to:
1. Stay behind the player in combat, if the player runs into enemies, the bot can give an alarm and will try to get behind the player, basically just shift the waypoint about 10 feet behind the player's back. This keeps it out of the way. You could also expand this to have the bot yell out if an enemy runs towards the player from behind, basically giving it a view cone pointing behind the player which triggers a sound clip if enemies enter it. This allows players to escort it easier and also gives them a benefit for doing so.
2. Weld anyone the player runs into/the player himself, this depends on if weldbots can weld players, but if they can, they should try to fix up anyone they run into.
3. Weld doors the player indicates, again dependent on whether they can actually do that, but the player can run up and press E on the door and the weldbot will weld it.
4. Build res nodes for players, if the player caps a res node and presses E on it when the weldbot is nearby, the weldbot will place a ref and build it, so commanders can simply give a squad a weldbot and tell them to go cap refs.
5. Players can reassign the weldbot to other players, press E twice on a player will make the weldbot follow them instead, so players can hand it off if they are hurt or need to do something else, weldbots should also 'stick' to players who are around if their current leader dies, so squads don't end up with a stuck weldbot if the guy in charge of it gets killed.
6. Go to places the player indicates, again perhaps a double E press would make the weldbot move to the location indicated, holding E would make it return, holding E would also override any other orders if the player needs it to get going again, while looking and pressing E on something like a refinery would cause it to resume building it.
Basically all of these are fairly simple AI additions which would make weldbots a much more interesting unit than the basic peon builder that they might otherwise turn out to be. Essentially making them a bonus squad member in their own right. Squad based fighting is fairly integral to NS, and things that enhance it are always welcome.
You could also maybe include other things along these lines like a moveable turret which can drive around and be commanded to set up, or even make the MASCs be useable in this manner. It removes the need for extensive micromanagement by the commander, although of course the option to do so remains, but I find that good players are often in a better position to do these things than the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Additions as simple as those would largely eliminate any micromanagement or AI problems with the builders, so I really cannot agree with those being brought up as points against the system.
<!--quoteo(post=1789973:date=Jul 31 2010, 09:17 AM:name=bob2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bob2 @ Jul 31 2010, 09:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, read half through this thread, lots of good ideas!
I'm sorry but I can't get over the way <b>Revi.uk</b> is talking to everyone. Dude, you are a TROLL. If you want to contribute, do so. What you are doing is looking like a brown noser and annoying people who are trying to help develop an awesome game. I for one LOVE the tension that comes from building that RT and wondering if you are going to have yoru ass bitten off in the next second.
I wake up and again I find my name being mentioned. Yet again being called a 'troll' for disagreeing with the ideas of people with knee jerk reactions to game mechanics that have yet to be fully tested. If you'd actually read through the thread you'd see that I'm not the only person who shares the same opinion as me.
Troll : To disagree with some ones point of view. In that case I guess you're right, I am troll - in the sense that I refuse acknowledge any of your ideas as good ones.
I'd just like to say WOW what a debate across multiple threads the AI-building has generated. I wonder what the UW team is thinking? They're probably too busy making the game run properly to address it just now, but I think soon they'll have to say something about it.
Max - Flayra are you listening ? Weldbots.... Destiny or the "Kiss of Death" often appearing good and well-meaning, which in reality is destructive or fatal; the instrument of one’s downfall or ruination. Looking forward to some real interaction .
I still find it a bad idea to have marines build, and will be so much better with the MAC doing it.
Beginning of the game commander drops 2 MACs one to build the armory while the other one leaves directly to the nearest RT. The marines will already be running past that RT to do whatever they want to do, one guy stays back at the RT, MAC gets there, builds it within 10 seconds. BAM. Now you have your base built already from the MAC there, and he's already on his way to the other RT which is on the other side, and you already have your other RT built. Continue on with your 2 macs, they get setup by the commander to follow a certain group, that group runs into lerks/skulks, they shoot commander drops meds, while the MAC welds the players. By this time the Commander has upgraded the MAC with Lay Mines, the MACs go infront of the players, and drop their mines, then fall back inback of the marines, and begin to build their turrets and seige.
And during this entire time that the marines are assaulting their hive, the commander is free to toss MACs around in groups to build whatever they need. MACs cant attack right now we don't know how much damage they do, but imagine having 3 macs going around a map, with lay mines and whatever other upgrades that they'll have to defende/attack with. You could literally have 2-3 MACs in base to cover. Oh no there's a skulk or two coming in, get the MACs on them, commander jumps out, they are already hurt from the MACs attacking, few shots to the skulks by the commander, kharaa are now dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1790067:date=Aug 1 2010, 02:10 AM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Aug 1 2010, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still find it a bad idea to have marines build, and will be so much better with the MAC doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What we're suggesting would allow the use of both, so if you personally prefer to use MACs you can whilst we can build ourselves.
<!--quoteo(post=1790042:date=Aug 1 2010, 12:14 AM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Aug 1 2010, 12:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->disagreeing with the ideas of people with knee jerk reactions to game mechanics that have yet to be fully tested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I doubt that extensive testing of the buildbot will change our minds about wanting to build ourselves. Your reasoning only really applies to this if they've completely left the feature we want out of the alpha.
<!--quoteo(post=1790055:date=Aug 1 2010, 01:46 AM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Aug 1 2010, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the best solution is for someone to make an NS1 mod. There seem to be many people who want NS1 with NS2 graphics rather than a sequal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I want a sequel that keeps and expands on the features I enjoyed from the original, I realize some things have to change but this particular change seems negative and unnecessary to me.
A NS1 mod would probably split up the community, which may not be very strong in the first place. So that's not an ideal solution IMO.
So there is a marine hand-held welder model that was apart of this newest update. I guess I can empathize with some of these 'let us build' people, but I think MACs should have to initiate any building. Only marines with a welder could help speed building that a MAC is already involved in. The idea that lone marines should be able to build with out a MAC is very unbalanced to the NS2 build system.
The drifters seem to expire on building. MACs stick around after building. If you allow marines to build without a MAC, this really makes building much more overpowered for the marine side. If welder carrying marines to assist build with a MAC, as well as gorges assist building/growing, that might be more balanced. The assist building scheme just seems kind of silly to me though. If you think about it, you end up with teams of players sitting around assist building stuff instead of engaging the enemy. This seems like a devolution.
Things change. Change is not necessarily bad. Learn to cope or life will be very unhappy for you.
<!--quoteo(post=1790079:date=Jul 31 2010, 06:09 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Jul 31 2010, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Snazz, I know exactly what you are all suggesting. I just don't agree with it, obviously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't the fact that you disagree, but that you completely failed to even acknowledge the decent arguments put forward for a different way of doing things (that would work just as well and leave more people satisfied), that makes you seem like a troll.
<!--quoteo(post=1790081:date=Jul 31 2010, 06:44 PM:name=Ezekiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ezekiel @ Jul 31 2010, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It wasn't the fact that you disagree, but that you completely failed to even acknowledge the decent arguments put forward for a different way of doing things (that would work just as well and leave more people satisfied), that makes you seem like a troll.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should we / I acknowledge them as good ideas when we are completely opposed to the idea?
In our OPINION they're poor ideas. We like the way that UWE have it present and would like it remain as such, this fact doesn't make us 'trolls' or 'brown nosers'. We're just on the opposite side of the fence.
What you're (still) failing to take into account is that making the switch to having macs and marines able to build would satisfy a lot of people. That's all a lot of the posts are saying. They explain the idea, say why they think the change would benefit the players and the game. You just put your fingers in your ears and go "nonononononon". See the difference?
I'm not saying the fact you have a different opinion is the reason why you come across as trolling. You don't appear to have actually read what I wrote before posting, simply furthering the appearance of you being a troll.
<!--quoteo(post=1790085:date=Jul 31 2010, 06:53 PM:name=Ezekiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ezekiel @ Jul 31 2010, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What you're (still) failing to take into account is that making the switch to having macs and marines able to build would satisfy a lot of people. That's all a lot of the posts are saying. They explain the idea, say why they think the change would benefit the players and the game. You just put your fingers in your ears and go "nonononononon". See the difference?
I'm not saying the fact you have a different opinion is the reason why you come across as trolling. You don't appear to have actually read what I wrote before posting, simply furthering the appearance of you being a troll.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I.like.the.way.it.is.now.
Exactly how it is now with absolutely no changes. You are confused, I have never once closed my ears to their arguments, I have produced counter-points to all. My opinion on the matter though is unchanged and will remain unchanged regardless of any points raised, I will shoot them down.
Calling me a troll in a post doesn't actually benefit your argument, it simply reduces what you say down into name calling regardless of the content.
Am not calling you anything, merely explaining why others have. I haven't read a single counter argument from you other than "this is the way it is, i like it".
And now back to the intended topic, I really think a common ground can be found here, A lot of people want to play support roles, a lot of people want to keep it the way it is
Have Marines be able to give up a weapon or two in order to take a build kit that has a limited construction ability. IE it can build a turret, *other turret like structures if they come out with them* and Resource Nodes *takes as much time as a tower to build, lesser income, less hp , can be upgraded with a MAC* and the pack also containers a welder for patching armor
So people who want to play a support role can do so, however MACs will still be the main builders in the sense that they are the only real builders can upgrade the base and build full fledged resource towers.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Still like the build tool idea best, it has been explained in those posts. Of what it can introduce and solves any problems there are now and might be if it is wrongly introduced.
Say what you will, it will not take away from your game play if you just want to shoot stuff, it will only add something for people who actually like to be a support marine. Adding more options to the game does not hurt the FPS only people at all. So saying "I don't like it" has no value at all.
I'm done with this thread, no use trying to convince a brick wall <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I still have yet to see what is good with MACs being the only ones building? Just cause a SMALL minority of people like escort missions isn't going to make escort missions any more appealing to the rest. The current MAC mechanics is just not fun and until marines are capable of building too there is going to be a lot of frustrated players.
I mean seriously, as a comm its one thing to tell a marine to go to such and such RT (or even yet find a random free one somewhere) but to then instruct the marine ok follow this bot to where he takes you instead? The marine is going to just ignore you and run off ramboing most of the time. I actually have yet to see a single alpha game where players actually try to escort the build bot rather than just defending the one in base as skulks rush and a couple lone marines sneak off, find an RT, and then say oh wait **** we can't build anymore sneaking out was useless.
So just because you like how this new system is supposed to work doesn't mean it is being used this way or that other people even enjoy using it the way its supposed to be. It just isn't working out how it was planned and really needs to be examined and adjusted.
<!--quoteo(post=1790088:date=Jul 31 2010, 06:00 PM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 31 2010, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#008000--><span style="color:#008000"><!--/coloro-->...I have never once closed my ears to their arguments, I have produced counter-points to all. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->My opinion on the matter though is unchanged and <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->will remain unchanged regardless of any points raised, <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->I will shoot them down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#008000--><span style="color:#008000"><!--/coloro-->how incredibly open minded<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->how incredibly closed minded<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> as my parents used to say when I was 13: it isn't what you say, but how you say it...
<u>Quick Idea:</u> Marines should be allowed to build - however much slower compared to the MAC's. (players must work together to build, there's your stupid teamwork) MAC's should still build - however much faster and efficiently. (com is still integrated, there ya go) MAC's should offer bonus'/pumps to nearby players - i.e. free welding, rare ammo and health drops (bam, there is your stupid escort missions)
Or hell, make the freaking buildbot playable so that it isn't stupid and can contribute during escort missions. Escorting one lone HA in NS1 was awesome - 3 lmgers supporting your only HA/HMG because you're strapped for cash. That escort mission was fun because the HA wasn't some inept fckuing retard. Even in CounterStrike, the VIP maps like oilrig could be fun because if you had a legit VIP, then it was totally doable...
But having an AI target as the one escorted is so<b> frustrating</b>. Anyone remember the escort mission in Ocarina of Time with that stupid little Zora girl? Telma and Ilia during Twilight Princess? Some games can get away with it because they are small parts of the game - but NS2 has become an escort mission marinewise. (at least if you want to win matches)
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited July 2010
I'm just glad air controlling bunnyhoppers, pancaking melee-lerks and 99-1 fades aren't any longer the only ones missing ns1 gameplay :D
"You just want ns1 with better graphics"..oh yeah, I did it, and it feels good!
And in regards to the whole escorting thing you might wanna read shad3r's posts; he has a point after all. If at all, it will be frustrating to the commanders that noone escorts and protects their builders, but as shad3r mentioned, the whole thing might not end up in escort missions.
For all those who say they can't see any negatives if marine are allowed to build as well, can you please address the argument of how MACs make for roving choke-points, which gives the battles a more defined front -- making them more intense and the game more e-sports compatible. Both of which I believe have been stated to be part of the basic design philosophy of NS2.
The other argument that I haven't seen refuted well is that the exact same thing is happening on the alien side, where builders are commander controlled. Giving all marines the ability to build while forcing all of the responsibility for alien building to fall on one player does not seem balanced.
Also, can we just drop the whole "I don't want to escort a dumb AI argument" because as has been pointed out, the pathfinding isn't dumb, and beyond that, it's not a dumb AI, it's a commander controlled unit. If you don't like the way it's moving, blame your commander. Would you people have similar arguments if building was restricted to a certain class of marine? If not, then there's your answer, jump in the com chair, and hey, you're that marine class.
<!--quoteo(post=1790112:date=Jul 31 2010, 03:44 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 31 2010, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The other argument that I haven't seen refuted well is that the exact same thing is happening on the alien side, where builders are commander controlled. Giving all marines the ability to build while forcing all of the responsibility for alien building to fall on one player does not seem balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See the aliens always had their own builder class. By adding the hive the gorge can STILL build other chambers and work more as a front lines defense while the builder role is simply shifted to a different class. This doesn't change dynamics as much (gorges were pretty useless if caught off guard by a marine anyway so might as well send the drifters to cap)
The marines on the other hand WERE the builders and by making them REQUIRE an AI for any expansion is really disconnecting the team from the commander. Instead of directly working with the team, the commander is working with bots that the marines need to ESCORT around the map. Marines don't even need to listen to the commander as long as they are following a bot around (which I doubt new players are going to want to do, and older ones are finding annoying). Before at the least marines could scout out RTs and then REQUEST them from the comm. I guess you can do the same now but you have to wait for the poor vulnerable bot to travel the map and hopefully make it to your position. So not only are MACs being the only builders slowing the game down, it is disconnecting the marines from their comm since all the comm cares about is the yellow noisy things surviving.
"Team deathmatch with commanders doing their own thing" seems to be the current state of this system and by arguing "you shoulda known better to follow the bot" doesn't change the fact people don't want to HAVE to do this. Smart or dumb AI it is still frustrating to not get to build yourself. The task of building in itself required alertness and skill, now you just shoot at anything that moves and hope they don't touch the bot...
At the moment, since it is an alpha I am sure that there is a lot that is missing. Are Welders (PC usable) going to be implemented into the game? If so, why wouldn't they be able to create a building where the bot can...?
<!--QuoteBegin-"http://www.naturalselection2.com/overview"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("http://www.naturalselection2.com/overview")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->REAL-TIME STRATEGY Commanders play from overhead to lead their team to victory. Build structures anywhere, collect resources and research upgrades. Marines buy weapons at an Armoury or build sentry turrets and siege cannons to assault the enemy. Aliens build upgrade chambers, evolve special abilities and plant traps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Judging by this, they don't plan on implementing the forward bases and such.... which is something i noticed when i couldn't place a commander console.
Having the commander being the only one place buildings and being able to construct them basically places them in two different games. What if the aliens are being quite pesky and killing the MCU's just as they leave where they are made? The game will basically come to a stand still for the marines and i would expect... early game griefing will be common.
As an alien simply rush to the marines resource points (since the maps are much smaller), and hide, wait until the marines pass and either suicide attack the MCU when it comes or survive however you can. Simply by this action though, will have crippled the marines quite dramatically...
While I am willing to wait, if they wish to drastically change the dynamics of natural selection that much then it would be good to know what they’re planning, because these are not changes I am willing to support. At the moment it feels like they want to have maps only 3-4 inter-connected rooms big and just have constant fighting?
I really enjoyed being able to build things myself in NS1, there are also many things I liked in NS1 that I would like them to bring over and I hope that they do: Players can build buildings too. The big maps with many rooms... 8v8 is fun i guess.... but if there isn’t 16vs16 or so then I'm not going to be playing online very often. Teleporting, tf2 does it quite well and still manages to be quite fast. Teleports focus the battle once the player is ready to fight, not counting on a random encounter. Many other things too.
"One of my best memories was when I first got a gaming computer, I had just found out how to put bot in a local ns1 server. So I asked my dad randomly one day if he wanted to play too.... I forget which map it was but we would always just screw around with servers full of bots, sometimes it was pointless cause after 1hr they hadn't built anything, other times they put up a good fight. Now we basically had always played the RTS genre, and NS1 allowed us to basically have someone place buildings and then have someone else build them and such" That is an important memory for me and NS2... if it continues down this path, i don't know...
Having to watch your commander fiddle around and place buildings and then actually get an MCU there while you are just sitting there on the RP, and if you don't realise that the MCU's are being killed on the way then you just wasted however long.
Comments
However, I'll reserve judgment until the game is in a more playable state. For now, I don't think i'm gonna like waiting for these slow, dumb AI robots to meander their way over to where I want them, no doubt constantly getting lost on the way, hung up on corners and obstacles, and wandering into enemy territory. But we'll see.
I don't mean them getting out of the map, or not building when you tell them to, but taking a crazy route to get from A to B?
Flayra posted the other day about the pathing working well, and I haven't seen any issues with it in game. Also, stopping them wandering into enemy territory is pretty easy - the game already knows which team controls each area via the Power Grid/Infestation status. The pathing function for the builders can take this into account when planning a route - you just assign enemy controlled areas a high cost in the pathfinding code, and it will automatically build paths that avoid them, taking the long way round to stay in friendly territory.
As Power Grid and DI aren't in the alpha yet, bots probably aren't paying attention to it when pathing, but it is a trivial thing to add.
Works perfectly on ns2_tram, but not at all on one of the other, I forget which. Couldn't get MACs out of the marine spawn, or drifters out of the hive room, without sort of wiggling them around a lot and trying to order them to different kinds of floor or elevations. When I tried to build with either they'd either not move or go to the noted location, sink to the floor and do nothing...
I will cry if they take out the builders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of us are not suggesting to take out the builders, we just don't want to be completely dependent on them like we are now.
Whether they create more interaction with marines is highly debatable considering there's a bot in between the two roles now, as opposed to direct teamwork. I'd rather have the option of carrying out a build order myself than simply following a bot around guarding it while it does it's business.
<!--quoteo(post=1789760:date=Jul 31 2010, 08:22 AM:name=scott.exe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (scott.exe @ Jul 31 2010, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you could help the bot build faster, meta game would evolve to that being the standard, if im chilling next to a bot thats building something the com would yell at me to help it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your concern for meta gaming seems specific to the suggestion of speeding up build time, which is only just an idea thrown out as a possible way to further distinguish players from bots in the building role.
<!--quoteo(post=1789760:date=Jul 31 2010, 08:22 AM:name=scott.exe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (scott.exe @ Jul 31 2010, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So theres no way to please both crowds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That pessimistic assumption has already been made, still without backing.
<!--quoteo(post=1789807:date=Jul 31 2010, 09:49 AM:name=TempesT487)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TempesT487 @ Jul 31 2010, 09:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand how building the commanders structure is such an involving experience. If you think staring at a structure and holding E was an involving experience then defending the commanders weldbots should be more so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Revi.uk basically said the same thing, what you both seem to be overlooking is that it's not about holding down a button it's about having the ability to build yourself without relying on bots and actually following out an engineering order straight from the commander. You might not of appreciated that in NS1 but we did and we miss it now and don't believe it has to be sacrificed. The bots should just be a supporting tool or another option when players won't listen.
<!--quoteo(post=1789807:date=Jul 31 2010, 09:49 AM:name=TempesT487)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TempesT487 @ Jul 31 2010, 09:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason for this change is to give the commander more control of the battle<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The commander still has control if players can build, he has to place structures himself first remember.
<!--quoteo(post=1789838:date=Jul 31 2010, 10:49 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jul 31 2010, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like pressing "e" on a building for 15 seconds to build it. That's boring. Having AI builder bots do the necessary yet boring work is good in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No ones saying you should be forced to build, if you find it boring go shoot some stuff. Don't confuse our request to maintain the ability to build with removing the AI builder either.
<!--quoteo(post=1789854:date=Jul 31 2010, 11:19 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jul 31 2010, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think allowing marines to "build" (hold down e) again would totally ruin the new system and make MACs pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would it ruin the new system? How would it make MACs pointless? Have you read the whole thread?
There are different advantages between using bots and using players to complete tasks.
Effectively the player becomes one (with all the benefits of being a marine) but maybe at a slight cost of some sort such as slight movement impair and res-cost for the commander to place <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->[1]<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. In commander view, the player is then selected and works the same way as a builder-bot that can be assigned to build a building. And for the player he sees a ghost-image of the building to be constructed and can then build it at that location.
That way there's MACs that can do the job the automated way in-base or in the near vicinity (or simply if the marines are just too dumb to accept the role), and for offensive and squad-movement you can just cut out the bot in between and go with a player.
And to further make it an option the player that the commander wants to become a builder for the team can get the option of declining - if he wants to - when the request is made.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->[1]<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> - Speculatively, it could be same cost as a MAC. Then it's only logical to use the MAC-exo on a marine when it's likely to get into danger or die in the process (such as when attacking), and when it's only for building inside bases then it's better to free a player by using the MACs instead.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I don't mean them getting out of the map, or not building when you tell them to, but taking a crazy route to get from A to B?
Flayra posted the other day about the pathing working well, and I haven't seen any issues with it in game. Also, stopping them wandering into enemy territory is pretty easy - the game already knows which team controls each area via the Power Grid/Infestation status. The pathing function for the builders can take this into account when planning a route - you just assign enemy controlled areas a high cost in the pathfinding code, and it will automatically build paths that avoid them, taking the long way round to stay in friendly territory.
As Power Grid and DI aren't in the alpha yet, bots probably aren't paying attention to it when pathing, but it is a trivial thing to add.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No not at all, in fact the bots have remarkably good pathing as far as I can tell for maps this complex and such an early stage. It also wasn't on tram, it was one what I think was one of the firing range maps or possibly a custom map, familiar but can't remember what it was exactly.
Hence my confusion about everyone saying that pathing will be terrible and ruin the game.
The bots move so quickly and efficiently that I keep losing them due to them being further ahead than I thought.
I also want to bring up this suggestion I made: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=110420" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=110420</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1785856:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:55 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 27 2010, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1785856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Was thinking about builder bots and thought it might be rather helpful if you could assign them to follow a player or squad and help them out. Basically they have the player set as their waypoint, they try to stay close to them at all times.
In addition, this idea should be expanded on by allowing bots in this mode to:
1. Stay behind the player in combat, if the player runs into enemies, the bot can give an alarm and will try to get behind the player, basically just shift the waypoint about 10 feet behind the player's back. This keeps it out of the way. You could also expand this to have the bot yell out if an enemy runs towards the player from behind, basically giving it a view cone pointing behind the player which triggers a sound clip if enemies enter it. This allows players to escort it easier and also gives them a benefit for doing so.
2. Weld anyone the player runs into/the player himself, this depends on if weldbots can weld players, but if they can, they should try to fix up anyone they run into.
3. Weld doors the player indicates, again dependent on whether they can actually do that, but the player can run up and press E on the door and the weldbot will weld it.
4. Build res nodes for players, if the player caps a res node and presses E on it when the weldbot is nearby, the weldbot will place a ref and build it, so commanders can simply give a squad a weldbot and tell them to go cap refs.
5. Players can reassign the weldbot to other players, press E twice on a player will make the weldbot follow them instead, so players can hand it off if they are hurt or need to do something else, weldbots should also 'stick' to players who are around if their current leader dies, so squads don't end up with a stuck weldbot if the guy in charge of it gets killed.
6. Go to places the player indicates, again perhaps a double E press would make the weldbot move to the location indicated, holding E would make it return, holding E would also override any other orders if the player needs it to get going again, while looking and pressing E on something like a refinery would cause it to resume building it.
Basically all of these are fairly simple AI additions which would make weldbots a much more interesting unit than the basic peon builder that they might otherwise turn out to be. Essentially making them a bonus squad member in their own right. Squad based fighting is fairly integral to NS, and things that enhance it are always welcome.
You could also maybe include other things along these lines like a moveable turret which can drive around and be commanded to set up, or even make the MASCs be useable in this manner. It removes the need for extensive micromanagement by the commander, although of course the option to do so remains, but I find that good players are often in a better position to do these things than the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Additions as simple as those would largely eliminate any micromanagement or AI problems with the builders, so I really cannot agree with those being brought up as points against the system.
I'm sorry but I can't get over the way <b>Revi.uk</b> is talking to everyone. Dude, you are a TROLL. If you want to contribute, do so. What you are doing is looking like a brown noser and annoying people who are trying to help develop an awesome game. I for one LOVE the tension that comes from building that RT and wondering if you are going to have yoru ass bitten off in the next second.
Please dude, quit trolling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wake up and again I find my name being mentioned. Yet again being called a 'troll' for disagreeing with the ideas of people with knee jerk reactions to game mechanics that have yet to be fully tested. If you'd actually read through the thread you'd see that I'm not the only person who shares the same opinion as me.
Troll : To disagree with some ones point of view. In that case I guess you're right, I am troll - in the sense that I refuse acknowledge any of your ideas as good ones.
Beginning of the game commander drops 2 MACs one to build the armory while the other one leaves directly to the nearest RT. The marines will already be running past that RT to do whatever they want to do, one guy stays back at the RT, MAC gets there, builds it within 10 seconds. BAM. Now you have your base built already from the MAC there, and he's already on his way to the other RT which is on the other side, and you already have your other RT built. Continue on with your 2 macs, they get setup by the commander to follow a certain group, that group runs into lerks/skulks, they shoot commander drops meds, while the MAC welds the players. By this time the Commander has upgraded the MAC with Lay Mines, the MACs go infront of the players, and drop their mines, then fall back inback of the marines, and begin to build their turrets and seige.
And during this entire time that the marines are assaulting their hive, the commander is free to toss MACs around in groups to build whatever they need. MACs cant attack right now we don't know how much damage they do, but imagine having 3 macs going around a map, with lay mines and whatever other upgrades that they'll have to defende/attack with. You could literally have 2-3 MACs in base to cover. Oh no there's a skulk or two coming in, get the MACs on them, commander jumps out, they are already hurt from the MACs attacking, few shots to the skulks by the commander, kharaa are now dead.
What we're suggesting would allow the use of both, so if you personally prefer to use MACs you can whilst we can build ourselves.
<!--quoteo(post=1790042:date=Aug 1 2010, 12:14 AM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Aug 1 2010, 12:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->disagreeing with the ideas of people with knee jerk reactions to game mechanics that have yet to be fully tested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt that extensive testing of the buildbot will change our minds about wanting to build ourselves. Your reasoning only really applies to this if they've completely left the feature we want out of the alpha.
<!--quoteo(post=1790055:date=Aug 1 2010, 01:46 AM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Aug 1 2010, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the best solution is for someone to make an NS1 mod. There seem to be many people who want NS1 with NS2 graphics rather than a sequal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want a sequel that keeps and expands on the features I enjoyed from the original, I realize some things have to change but this particular change seems negative and unnecessary to me.
A NS1 mod would probably split up the community, which may not be very strong in the first place. So that's not an ideal solution IMO.
The drifters seem to expire on building. MACs stick around after building. If you allow marines to build without a MAC, this really makes building much more overpowered for the marine side. If welder carrying marines to assist build with a MAC, as well as gorges assist building/growing, that might be more balanced. The assist building scheme just seems kind of silly to me though. If you think about it, you end up with teams of players sitting around assist building stuff instead of engaging the enemy. This seems like a devolution.
Things change. Change is not necessarily bad. Learn to cope or life will be very unhappy for you.
Watch out, you'll get called a troll.
Why should we / I acknowledge them as good ideas when we are completely opposed to the idea?
In our OPINION they're poor ideas. We like the way that UWE have it present and would like it remain as such, this fact doesn't make us 'trolls' or 'brown nosers'. We're just on the opposite side of the fence.
I'm not saying the fact you have a different opinion is the reason why you come across as trolling. You don't appear to have actually read what I wrote before posting, simply furthering the appearance of you being a troll.
He's read what you and others wrote. He understands what you're saying. He simply doesn't agree.
Just because allowing Marines to help build would make some people happy, doesn't mean it's a good idea.
I'm with him.
Plus I think this whole conversation is useless at this point, lets actually play a few rounds of NS2 as intended and then discuss.
I'm not saying the fact you have a different opinion is the reason why you come across as trolling. You don't appear to have actually read what I wrote before posting, simply furthering the appearance of you being a troll.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I.like.the.way.it.is.now.
Exactly how it is now with absolutely no changes. You are confused, I have never once closed my ears to their arguments, I have produced counter-points to all. My opinion on the matter though is unchanged and will remain unchanged regardless of any points raised, I will shoot them down.
Calling me a troll in a post doesn't actually benefit your argument, it simply reduces what you say down into name calling regardless of the content.
Have Marines be able to give up a weapon or two in order to take a build kit that has a limited construction ability. IE it can build a turret, *other turret like structures if they come out with them* and Resource Nodes *takes as much time as a tower to build, lesser income, less hp , can be upgraded with a MAC* and the pack also containers a welder for patching armor
So people who want to play a support role can do so, however MACs will still be the main builders in the sense that they are the only real builders can upgrade the base and build full fledged resource towers.
Say what you will, it will not take away from your game play if you just want to shoot stuff, it will only add something for people who actually like to be a support marine. Adding more options to the game does not hurt the FPS only people at all. So saying "I don't like it" has no value at all.
I'm done with this thread, no use trying to convince a brick wall <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I mean seriously, as a comm its one thing to tell a marine to go to such and such RT (or even yet find a random free one somewhere) but to then instruct the marine ok follow this bot to where he takes you instead? The marine is going to just ignore you and run off ramboing most of the time. I actually have yet to see a single alpha game where players actually try to escort the build bot rather than just defending the one in base as skulks rush and a couple lone marines sneak off, find an RT, and then say oh wait **** we can't build anymore sneaking out was useless.
So just because you like how this new system is supposed to work doesn't mean it is being used this way or that other people even enjoy using it the way its supposed to be. It just isn't working out how it was planned and really needs to be examined and adjusted.
<!--coloro:#008000--><span style="color:#008000"><!--/coloro-->how incredibly open minded<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->how incredibly closed minded<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
as my parents used to say when I was 13: it isn't what you say, but how you say it...
<u>Quick Idea:</u>
Marines should be allowed to build - however much slower compared to the MAC's. (players must work together to build, there's your stupid teamwork)
MAC's should still build - however much faster and efficiently. (com is still integrated, there ya go)
MAC's should offer bonus'/pumps to nearby players - i.e. free welding, rare ammo and health drops (bam, there is your stupid escort missions)
Or hell, make the freaking buildbot playable so that it isn't stupid and can contribute during escort missions. Escorting one lone HA in NS1 was awesome - 3 lmgers supporting your only HA/HMG because you're strapped for cash. That escort mission was fun because the HA wasn't some inept fckuing retard. Even in CounterStrike, the VIP maps like oilrig could be fun because if you had a legit VIP, then it was totally doable...
But having an AI target as the one escorted is so<b> frustrating</b>. Anyone remember the escort mission in Ocarina of Time with that stupid little Zora girl? Telma and Ilia during Twilight Princess? Some games can get away with it because they are small parts of the game - but NS2 has become an escort mission marinewise. (at least if you want to win matches)
"You just want ns1 with better graphics"..oh yeah, I did it, and it feels good!
And in regards to the whole escorting thing you might wanna read shad3r's posts; he has a point after all.
If at all, it will be frustrating to the commanders that noone escorts and protects their builders, but as shad3r mentioned, the whole thing might not end up in escort missions.
The other argument that I haven't seen refuted well is that the exact same thing is happening on the alien side, where builders are commander controlled. Giving all marines the ability to build while forcing all of the responsibility for alien building to fall on one player does not seem balanced.
Also, can we just drop the whole "I don't want to escort a dumb AI argument" because as has been pointed out, the pathfinding isn't dumb, and beyond that, it's not a dumb AI, it's a commander controlled unit. If you don't like the way it's moving, blame your commander. Would you people have similar arguments if building was restricted to a certain class of marine? If not, then there's your answer, jump in the com chair, and hey, you're that marine class.
See the aliens always had their own builder class. By adding the hive the gorge can STILL build other chambers and work more as a front lines defense while the builder role is simply shifted to a different class. This doesn't change dynamics as much (gorges were pretty useless if caught off guard by a marine anyway so might as well send the drifters to cap)
The marines on the other hand WERE the builders and by making them REQUIRE an AI for any expansion is really disconnecting the team from the commander. Instead of directly working with the team, the commander is working with bots that the marines need to ESCORT around the map. Marines don't even need to listen to the commander as long as they are following a bot around (which I doubt new players are going to want to do, and older ones are finding annoying). Before at the least marines could scout out RTs and then REQUEST them from the comm. I guess you can do the same now but you have to wait for the poor vulnerable bot to travel the map and hopefully make it to your position. So not only are MACs being the only builders slowing the game down, it is disconnecting the marines from their comm since all the comm cares about is the yellow noisy things surviving.
"Team deathmatch with commanders doing their own thing" seems to be the current state of this system and by arguing "you shoulda known better to follow the bot" doesn't change the fact people don't want to HAVE to do this. Smart or dumb AI it is still frustrating to not get to build yourself. The task of building in itself required alertness and skill, now you just shoot at anything that moves and hope they don't touch the bot...
Are Welders (PC usable) going to be implemented into the game?
If so, why wouldn't they be able to create a building where the bot can...?
<!--QuoteBegin-"http://www.naturalselection2.com/overview"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("http://www.naturalselection2.com/overview")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->REAL-TIME STRATEGY
Commanders play from overhead to lead their team to victory. Build structures anywhere, collect resources and research upgrades. Marines buy weapons at an Armoury or build sentry turrets and siege cannons to assault the enemy. Aliens build upgrade chambers, evolve special abilities and plant traps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Judging by this, they don't plan on implementing the forward bases and such.... which is something i noticed when i couldn't place a commander console.
Having the commander being the only one place buildings and being able to construct them basically places them in two different games. What if the aliens are being quite pesky and killing the MCU's just as they leave where they are made?
The game will basically come to a stand still for the marines and i would expect... early game griefing will be common.
As an alien simply rush to the marines resource points (since the maps are much smaller), and hide, wait until the marines pass and either suicide attack the MCU when it comes or survive however you can. Simply by this action though, will have crippled the marines quite dramatically...
While I am willing to wait, if they wish to drastically change the dynamics of natural selection that much then it would be good to know what they’re planning, because these are not changes I am willing to support. At the moment it feels like they want to have maps only 3-4 inter-connected rooms big and just have constant fighting?
I really enjoyed being able to build things myself in NS1, there are also many things I liked in NS1 that I would like them to bring over and I hope that they do:
Players can build buildings too.
The big maps with many rooms... 8v8 is fun i guess.... but if there isn’t 16vs16 or so then I'm not going to be playing online very often.
Teleporting, tf2 does it quite well and still manages to be quite fast. Teleports focus the battle once the player is ready to fight, not counting on a random encounter.
Many other things too.
"One of my best memories was when I first got a gaming computer, I had just found out how to put bot in a local ns1 server. So I asked my dad randomly one day if he wanted to play too.... I forget which map it was but we would always just screw around with servers full of bots, sometimes it was pointless cause after 1hr they hadn't built anything, other times they put up a good fight. Now we basically had always played the RTS genre, and NS1 allowed us to basically have someone place buildings and then have someone else build them and such"
That is an important memory for me and NS2... if it continues down this path, i don't know...
Having to watch your commander fiddle around and place buildings and then actually get an MCU there while you are just sitting there on the RP, and if you don't realise that the MCU's are being killed on the way then you just wasted however long.
Yes/No? Is this a cod4 skin?