<!--quoteo(post=1790115:date=Jul 31 2010, 02:01 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jul 31 2010, 02:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See the aliens always had their own builder class. By adding the hive the gorge can STILL build other chambers and work more as a front lines defense while the builder role is simply shifted to a different class. This doesn't change dynamics as much (gorges were pretty useless if caught off guard by a marine anyway so might as well send the drifters to cap)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Gorges can currently build Hydras. Only. That's it. We see from descriptions about the game that marines may well be able to build sentries in future. So there, problem solved, eh?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The marines on the other hand WERE the builders and by making them REQUIRE an AI for any expansion is really disconnecting the team from the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I see it enforcing the team to talk to the commander and vice versa, so that they know where the builder is going in order to get ahead of it and properly defend it. Before, commander said "Go to this res point and build the RT!" and marine said, "Yeah, no, I like this res point better.. once I'm there I'll call for an RT, and what are you gonna do, follow your strategy or follow mine?" The system now enforces teamwork. You want to build somewhere the commander doesn't? Tough nuts. Follow the strategy of the guy called the commander. That's why he's called the "Commander", btw. That you think it disconnects you suggests to me that you're used to getting where you want and having the commander react to you, rather than you having to react to the commander.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of directly working with the team, the commander is working with bots that the marines need to ESCORT around the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Or, the commander is working directly with the marines by keeping an eye on the MAC, making sure it moves with the group, falls back when it needs to, etc.. that you haven't had a commander that does that doesn't mean the system needs to change so much as the old habits of the commander from NS1. Perhaps you've heard of this game called Starcraft? It's an RTS game, apparantly, one in which a good commander is one that can control not only various upgrades and the like, but actually handle complex movements of their troops, advancing, flanking, retreating, etc. It turns out that there's apparantly some RTS stuff going on in NS2, and that NS2 commanders are going to be expected to be similarly skilled. I don't necessarily see that as a failure in the system at all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines don't even need to listen to the commander as long as they are following a bot around (which I doubt new players are going to want to do, and older ones are finding annoying).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So your argument here is essentially noob players act like noobs? Yeah, I can see how the MAC has suddenly made that come to the fore.. oh wait.. If marines just follow the bot around, marines are going to lose, as the aliens will jump on said bot and eat it. Marines need to lead the bot to make sure where it's going is clear. This requires, once again, <i>more</i> interaction with the Commander, not less.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before at the least marines could scout out RTs and then REQUEST them from the comm. I guess you can do the same now but you have to wait for the poor vulnerable bot to travel the map and hopefully make it to your position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And again we see the reality. Your problem isn't that the Commander is separated from the marine so much, (because we've shown it isn't) it's that the Commander has been put in the Commanding role and the marine has to act as.. well.. a marine under command, rather than a rambo.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So not only are MACs being the only builders slowing the game down, it is disconnecting the marines from their comm since all the comm cares about is the yellow noisy things surviving.
"Team deathmatch with commanders doing their own thing" seems to be the current state of this system and by arguing "you shoulda known better to follow the bot" doesn't change the fact people don't want to HAVE to do this. Smart or dumb AI it is still frustrating to not get to build yourself. The task of building in itself required alertness and skill, now you just shoot at anything that moves and hope they don't touch the bot...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd suggest your problem is that you need better commanders. If you really want the tension of building, you could always go face a wall for a while and see if you can manage to count to 30 before turning around. That seems to require the same level of alertness and skill.
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea that lone marines should be able to build with out a MAC is very unbalanced to the NS2 build system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What about the NS2 build system makes it 'very unbalanced'?
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The drifters seem to expire on building. MACs stick around after building. If you allow marines to build without a MAC, this really makes building much more overpowered for the marine side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally I want gorges to be able to build as well, but if drifters expiring makes the aliens unbalanced that's already an issue not one caused by the suggestion. Besides that sort of thing can be balanced asymmetrically through various ways (unit cost, strength, speed etc.).
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you think about it, you end up with teams of players sitting around assist building stuff instead of engaging the enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not how it went in my experiences playing NS1, with buildbots that can do the job if a marine doesn't it should be even less likely.
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Things change. Change is not necessarily bad. Learn to cope or life will be very unhappy for you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't mind good and necessary change, taking away players ability to build is a bad and unnecessary change.
<!--quoteo(post=1790080:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:25 AM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Aug 1 2010, 03:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Watch out, you'll get called a troll.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> When you make posts like that you're asking for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1790112:date=Aug 1 2010, 05:44 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 1 2010, 05:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For all those who say they can't see any negatives if marine are allowed to build as well, can you please address the argument of how MACs make for roving choke-points, which gives the battles a more defined front -- making them more intense and the game more e-sports compatible. Both of which I believe have been stated to be part of the basic design philosophy of NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you would please explain what you mean by roving choke-points and why limiting building to bots is necessary to achieve it.
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The other argument that I haven't seen refuted well is that the exact same thing is happening on the alien side, where builders are commander controlled. Giving all marines the ability to build while forcing all of the responsibility for alien building to fall on one player does not seem balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My 'argument' encompasses both marines and aliens, I refer to drifters and buildbots as both bots/AI and gorges/marines as players. Not sure about others in the thread though.
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, can we just drop the whole "I don't want to escort a dumb AI argument" because as has been pointed out, the pathfinding isn't dumb, and beyond that, it's not a dumb AI, it's a commander controlled unit. If you don't like the way it's moving, blame your commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The semantics of whether AI is 'dumb' or not aside, I think it's valid to state you would prefer the option to do a build job yourself instead of always having to escort a bot.
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would you people have similar arguments if building was restricted to a certain class of marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally no.
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If not, then there's your answer, jump in the com chair, and hey, you're that marine class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Being commander is not the same thing, it involves specific responsibilities and far more than just placing buildings.
He's read what you and others wrote. He understands what you're saying. He simply doesn't agree.
Just because allowing Marines to help build would make some people happy, doesn't mean it's a good idea.
I'm with him.
Plus I think this whole conversation is useless at this point, lets actually play a few rounds of NS2 as intended and then discuss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I am still waiting to hear WHY it's not a good idea, I have even asked for someone to post how this will in anyway create LESS strategies, variety and fun. I have given plenty of examples for this in previous post, I would at least like in return a few examples from the people that oppose it, outside of just saying, no.
<!--quoteo(post=1790117:date=Aug 1 2010, 06:05 AM:name=ptfff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ptfff @ Aug 1 2010, 06:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are Welders (PC usable) going to be implemented into the game? If so, why wouldn't they be able to create a building where the bot can...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Welders in NS1 were just for repairing existing structures, rather than building/finishing them. They'd probably be for sealing doors in NS2 as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1790122:date=Aug 1 2010, 06:36 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 1 2010, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see it enforcing the team to talk to the commander and vice versa, so that they know where the builder is going in order to get ahead of it and properly defend it. Before, commander said "Go to this res point and build the RT!" and marine said, "Yeah, no, I like this res point better.. once I'm there I'll call for an RT, and what are you gonna do, follow your strategy or follow mine?" The system now enforces teamwork. You want to build somewhere the commander doesn't? Tough nuts. Follow the strategy of the guy called the commander. That's why he's called the "Commander", btw. That you think it disconnects you suggests to me that you're used to getting where you want and having the commander react to you, rather than you having to react to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If your negative, generalized view of typical commander-player interaction was true players would just ignore the bots anyway. It doesn't enforce teamwork, it just limits the commander's options (needing to use a bot instead of asking a player) and player's abilities.
What we're suggesting would still allow the commander to use bots when players are not cooperating.
<!--quoteo(post=1790122:date=Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorges can currently build Hydras. Only. That's it. We see from descriptions about the game that marines may well be able to build sentries in future. So there, problem solved, eh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, not problem solved. The NS1 gorge was a class that could be switched to to do many different things. By splitting the gorge's abilities up the gorge is now a frontlines defense and the comm manages everything behind the aliens (what the gorge used to do when capping RTs since it could barely defend itself better than a drifter anyway without wasting res). This change has benefits. For the marines side this change was not needed and is just frustrating.
<!--quoteo(post=1790122:date=Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Follow the strategy of the guy called the commander. That's why he's called the "Commander", btw. That you think it disconnects you suggests to me that you're used to getting where you want and having the commander react to you, rather than you having to react to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No see, in pub play a lot of the time the comm is not so good at commanding and it HELPS to run off scout RTs on your own and request them because you know that is what you were supposed to do anyway. In competitive play obviously everyone will play their roles better, but we don't want the game to break if people aren't good at their roles. This helps scare away new players.
<!--quoteo(post=1790122:date=Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So your argument here is essentially noob players act like noobs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. At least noobs in NS1 could still be useful if they found themselves lost in some section of the map with an RT near them. The comm could then drop it, the marine would build it and feel a great sense of accomplishment <b>especially because he was a noob that accomplished something</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=1790122:date=Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines need to lead the bot to make sure where it's going is clear. This requires, once again, <i>more</i> interaction with the Commander, not less.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No this is interaction with the bot. The comm interacts with the bot which is then escorted by the marines. Most of the direct comm->marine interaction has now been eliminated (no weapon drop etc), and probably the only thing the comm has to say to the players is "ok guys im sending a bot here please take care of it because your squad is useless if you lose it".
<!--quoteo(post=1790122:date=Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd suggest your problem is that you need better commanders. If you really want the tension of building, you could always go face a wall for a while and see if you can manage to count to 30 before turning around. That seems to require the same level of alertness and skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is this supposed to be joke? If you think facing a wall for 30 seconds and building are logically equivalent... you really need to learn logic.
Exactly how it is now with absolutely no changes. You are confused, I have never once closed my ears to their arguments, I have produced counter-points to all. My opinion on the matter though is unchanged and will remain unchanged regardless of any points raised, I will shoot them down.
Calling me a troll in a post doesn't actually benefit your argument, it simply reduces what you say down into name calling regardless of the content.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow, who died and made you sole arbiter of the wishes of the NS community?
As a commander in ns1 i liked and disliked the fact that players had to build stuff. You wanted to get something build, well it happened that noone of the team actually build it. Now you can give the order to a mac and it will do it, unless not being killed before but that also could happen if giving an order to a player. That great.
As a player in the field you had the choice to either go where the action is, grouping as a team, holding strategic points, or you could be the engineer running around scouting the less frequented areas, getting up stuff, maybe sneaking up stuff behind enemy line whatsoever. For myself, having both choices was fun.
With ns2 the players in field don't have the option to build. Is that good? Is it fun? Actually I'n not sure yet. On the one hand, great. I don't need to take care of bulding stuff. On the other.. meh.. no more being the engineer. But I'm not convinced yet that this missing feature is bad for the overall feeling. Maybe it will work out when everything else is implemented.
If I am commander and marines can build stuff I will never use a single MAC. Ever. Seeing MACs would because an oddity. I rather want to keep the current NS2 mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1790204:date=Jul 31 2010, 07:43 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jul 31 2010, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I am commander and marines can build stuff I will never use a single MAC. Ever. Seeing MACs would because an oddity. I rather want to keep the current NS2 mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One thing to note is there are a variety of arguments going around. Please try to keep them straight.
My personal idea is that Marines with some tool (say a welder) will be able to speed up production and perhaps place some buildings like a RT. Similarly, Gorges should have the ability to place a RT. Players would build slower than their respective MAC/Drifter.
This restores some of the NS1 enjoyments. Power building is viable again. A solo marine can help re-capture points. While the MAC is diminished in reliance, it is not removed since the MAC is still the best way to build everything. Plus, comms are not reliant on their players to build everything for them, thereby reducing the annoyance on the commanders.
We therefore develop a compromise. Comms are still more strongly disjointed, which is beneficial to let them manage the RTS aspect better. However, players can still aid their commander and take part in the RTS aspect, which is crucial especially for players who are not as apt at fighting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I see it enforcing the team to talk to the commander and vice versa, so that they know where the builder is going in order to get ahead of it and properly defend it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incorrect. In NS1, the commander and his marines each had an extremely complimentary role. They both needed the other to do almost anything. Marines needed the commander to drop them medpacks, ammo, guns, special equipment, pretty much everything. The commander though couldn't directly do anything much on his own; he needed Marines to build his structures and carry out his strategy. In effect, the system forced the Marine team to co-ordinate at every level, creating a synergy that if broken usually lead to disaster.
Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa. And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.
<!--quoteo(post=1790204:date=Aug 1 2010, 10:43 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Aug 1 2010, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I am commander and marines can build stuff I will never use a single MAC. Ever. Seeing MACs would because an oddity. I rather want to keep the current NS2 mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd use a mixture of both, depending on the situation and coordination of the team. There isn't always players who are willing to build for you exactly where you want whenever you want.
I still don't understand why some people are against having the option.
<!--quoteo(post=1790219:date=Jul 31 2010, 09:20 PM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Jul 31 2010, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Incorrect. In NS1, the commander and his marines each had an extremely complimentary role. They both needed the other to do almost anything. Marines needed the commander to drop them medpacks, ammo, guns, special equipment, pretty much everything. The commander though couldn't directly do anything much on his own; he needed Marines to build his structures and carry out his strategy. In effect, the system forced the Marine team to co-ordinate at every level, creating a synergy that if broken usually lead to disaster.
Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa. And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1790219:date=Jul 31 2010, 08:20 PM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Jul 31 2010, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Incorrect. In NS1, the commander and his marines each had an extremely complimentary role. They both needed the other to do almost anything. Marines needed the commander to drop them medpacks, ammo, guns, special equipment, pretty much everything. The commander though couldn't directly do anything much on his own; he needed Marines to build his structures and carry out his strategy. In effect, the system forced the Marine team to co-ordinate at every level, creating a synergy that if broken usually lead to disaster.
Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa. And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well said, this is one of the points I have been missing in my arguments, the disunity it would create between marine and commander, when as you said in NS1, it was the very bond and essence of the entire marine game.
<!--quoteo(post=1790219:date=Jul 31 2010, 05:20 PM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Jul 31 2010, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Incorrect. In NS1, the commander and his marines each had an extremely complimentary role. They both needed the other to do almost anything. Marines needed the commander to drop them medpacks, ammo, guns, special equipment, pretty much everything. The commander though couldn't directly do anything much on his own; he needed Marines to build his structures and carry out his strategy. In effect, the system forced the Marine team to co-ordinate at every level, creating a synergy that if broken usually lead to disaster.
Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa. And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1790219:date=Jul 31 2010, 07:20 PM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Jul 31 2010, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Incorrect. In NS1, the commander and his marines each had an extremely complimentary role. They both needed the other to do almost anything. Marines needed the commander to drop them medpacks, ammo, guns, special equipment, pretty much everything. The commander though couldn't directly do anything much on his own; he needed Marines to build his structures and carry out his strategy. In effect, the system forced the Marine team to co-ordinate at every level, creating a synergy that if broken usually lead to disaster.
Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa. And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, I think this is a well thought out post. Indeed thats about the situation I remember the times I played NS1 on the Marine team.
However, there's a fine line between synergy and codependency which I think you touched on with the "if broken usually lead to disaster part".
As a marine I don't want to be that tied to the comm for a weapon... after all I have eyes on the ground which means I have a better chance of knowing what weapon is more useful for the current situation and what weapon I'm best with. Similarly as a comm I don't want to be "nagged" for this gun and that gun. That sort of micro-management is not helpful IMO... it has the potential to be an irritation to both.
As a comm I want to concentrate on the "bigger picture"... not spam medi-kits and beg someone to build a tower. As a marine I want to be able to focus on the threat that is the aliens first and foremost with my weapon - leaving the grand design to victory to the commander - not sneaking into a place somewhere - unauthorized chances are - and then declare that the commander should build around my position because I know better.
In other words, there _should_ be two different games going on.... the RTS and the FPS. However; there is no way to separate them completely ... commanders and marines will always be tied together. Like you said it may not be as immediately obvious to new people but all games have learning curves. Commanders and marines will learn quickly that working together is to the benefit of everyone - after all this is what distinguishes good teams from mediocre teams - and if they don't they they'll keep losing until they do... "naturally selected behaviour" if you ask me.
Marines building keeps at least one link of codependency between the two roles. Self-bought weapons have their own benefits but we don't want to completely break ties since now all forms of interaction are through the MACs and not directly between the comm and marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1790219:date=Aug 1 2010, 01:20 AM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 1 2010, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Incorrect. In NS1, the commander and his marines each had an extremely complimentary role. They both needed the other to do almost anything. Marines needed the commander to drop them medpacks, ammo, guns, special equipment, pretty much everything. The commander though couldn't directly do anything much on his own; he needed Marines to build his structures and carry out his strategy. In effect, the system forced the Marine team to co-ordinate at every level, creating a synergy that if broken usually lead to disaster.
Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa. And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
FilthyLarry - I strongly disagree with your notion of what a commander's roles are. I want to have a relationship with my fellow players. It's a <b>mutliplayer </b>game. I want to have constant feedback from all my marines. I want players to inform me there are higher life forms, there are DC's out, there are multiple hives, new RTs. I want and need feedback to be a successful commander. If there is no feedback I am just in my isolated bubble. This separation stems from the separation between commander and marine, which Ryo-Oki eloquently stated, stems from a commander's ability to build and explore (originally a marine job) and a marines ability to upgrade and arm (originally a commanders job). There is separation...
<!--quoteo(post=1789527:date=Jul 31 2010, 04:10 AM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 31 2010, 04:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no need to have both, you can't please both crowds. I've said it plenty of times this is not about giving or taking away from the marine on the ground it's about making the commanders game more interesting.
In NS1 everyone hated being the commander, at the start of every game there would be "who wants to comm..." then someone would almost have to forfeit their game in order to do something they disliked. The point of the MACs is to make being a commander more rewarding and exciting.
I highly doubt it's going to change, UWE is obviously set on this path.
Deal with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can please both crowds, you are just opting to choose not to.
I forgot this game was all about the commander. Maybe this should be a RTS game not an RTS+FPS.
In NS1 people didn't hate being commander it's just FPS people are often very poor at RTS and commanding and so there were not many people who were "good" at commanding. There was a fair bit of pressure being commander too and coming up with the strategies and winning combination.
<!--quoteo(post=1789534:date=Jul 31 2010, 04:17 AM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Jul 31 2010, 04:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can agree somewhat with how people enjoy building RTs but also a lot of people die while trying to build them. They are in someway trying to make this game simpler for those who aren't the best at backing away and killing skulks while in the middle of building up an RT, at least now you can stay in front of the Rt protect it and you still did your job of getting that RT up even if you weren't the one to press 'e' for 15 seconds to build it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That makes no sense...
If a game is hard because you have to aim, do you give everyone auto-aim? If camouflage is too hard to see do you make everyone fluorescent?
Why are we making it "n00b" friendly? People require practice to get better at a game and gain skill.
For those that don't want to build, follow a build-bot and try and keep him alive. Or let the commander try and deal with the build-bots on his own or let others build simple.
For those that can't deal with building and defending at the same time keep up with a group of marines or follow a build-bot.
For those that are competent/skilled enough they can build and defend against skulks/aliens at the same time ALA NS1 more power to them.
If skill is removed from a game it becomes boring.
<!--quoteo(post=1790091:date=Jul 31 2010, 02:11 PM:name=Killpo1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Killpo1 @ Jul 31 2010, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And now back to the intended topic, I really think a common ground can be found here, A lot of people want to play support roles, a lot of people want to keep it the way it is
Have Marines be able to give up a weapon or two in order to take a build kit that has a limited construction ability. IE it can build a turret, *other turret like structures if they come out with them* and Resource Nodes *takes as much time as a tower to build, lesser income, less hp , can be upgraded with a MAC* and the pack also containers a welder for patching armor
So people who want to play a support role can do so, however MACs will still be the main builders in the sense that they are the only real builders can upgrade the base and build full fledged resource towers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My problem is people are throwing "Well in NS1 you had welders" around which is well and good if your goal is to help build in the same sentence as "marines should be able to build structures on their own" which is something completely absent in NS1 (unless you count combat mode which you know we don't) as well as a completely new feature that isn't even in existence in any way shape or form other than gorges. I understand the welder argument, if only because it beats trodding back and forth from the armory every time a skulk scratches your dingy, but saying "we can't build, this is nothing like NS and you're stupid if you disagree" is a completely different argument. Teleporters are gone, so there's no insta-drop. Let's just pull an unreal tournament logic and say they caused craziness and death, and so are banned now in the universe. Now you need a MAC to drop something. By that logic, you assisting is great and good. I have a feeling a large number of players miss being able to do ninja drops which really seemed more a combat mode thing, and so I just feel like we need to separate the groups into "I miss welders" and "I want to build like in combat mode."
Also, since I'm too stupid to quote two people before typing this, I don't get why there will be a disconnect between marines and the commander because of the MAC. Yes, the MAC can build. That's wonderful. It's also not very durable and isn't much (and right now nothing) in a fight. It's HP is crummy and can't weld and kill at the same time. Guess why? Because it's designed to be protected by players. If you want to accomplish something, I think the necessity between marines and Commander will be even greater than if they're just "I built this ding I'm going to do something else." I've said this previously, but it needs to be said again - the MAC is a tool the commander uses to get stuff done. Most people themselves have admitted that they were the only ones who were doing building during games. Guess what, when you're not around noone's doing building, at least not without anger. This gives the team at least a slight chance of getting the resources they need to do something. Besides that, it's on the marine themselves to reserve resources to buy the proper gear that the commander specs out. It seems that now, more than ever before in NS1, your upgrades are going to have a major impact on what units come out into the field and a specialist, properly specced squad will outdo any generalist 1 of everything unit. Those points will be a big deal and a wrong investment might be more damaging than solo'ing, especially if noone's going to help the comm out when he's got to capture points. This again promotes unity. I'm tired so I'll end this hear and if it's too incoherent I'll try to clear it up.
Having these kinds of debates are just so pointless with so much not yet in the game so everything in this thread should be taken with a grain of salt. None the less, that's what forums are for. I just ended a sentence in a preposition and I'm not going to apologize for it. It's late, I'm bored, and the following are just thoughts without order.
<!--quoteo(post=1790219:date=Jul 31 2010, 09:20 PM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Jul 31 2010, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Incorrect. In NS1, the commander and his marines each had an extremely complimentary role. They both needed the other to do almost anything...In effect, the system forced the Marine team to co-ordinate at every level, creating a synergy that if broken usually lead to disaster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true, which is why the RTS aspect in NS1 was <i>horrible.</i> I could go into why but to an actual RTS player NS1's RTS shortcomings should be blatant. Allowing structures to only be built by the commanders is a major improvement to NS's RTS side and for NS's gameplay in general.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The above quote is a baseless assumption that disregards the vast majority of the public's NS1 experience. It does sound really good though.
What is the typical communication you usually saw in pubs between commanders and marines?
"Hey guys, need this node a PSJ built." 2 minutes later: "Still no one at PSJ... someone?" "Commander; I've been waiting in base for 45 seconds where is my god damn HMG!?!" "Guys, someone has to stay behind to build the node - you can't all move forward." and if you're lucky and actually get someone to build it's likely a rambo skulk is going to kill them.
This kind of communication that you seem to value so much isn't some pinnacle of teamplay that we should try to be preserving. By allowing each side to do the most basic and fundamental tasks assigned to their RTS/FPS roles you actually open up communication to allow people to talk about things that matter like general strategy or attack plans and both side can have fun while doing it.
Why you're wrong / why this is system is better than NS1:
1) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1...Marines needed the commander to drop them...pretty much everything. The commander...needed Marines to build his structures and carry out his strategy. In effect, the system forced the Marine team to co-ordinate at every level, creating a synergy that if broken usually lead to disaster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People play games to have fun. For the average gamer does any of that sound fun to you? From spending years in pubs across various games I can tell you that teamplay is rare and not to be expected no matter how easy the developer's make it. Requiring a game to force teamplay upon everyone, with the alternative "leading to disaster," is not the way you build a fun game for the public. Teamwork is good but forcing teamwork for the most basic aspects only leads to frustration and each side playing half of their respective genre.
2) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines will still need RT's for their personal income. Granted, last we heard res for kills was in NS2 however unless you're a top tier player you're not going to be getting enough kills to sustain the equipment you want. You will need those RTs and you will need to work with your commander. Oh hey look, <i>meaningful</i> teamwork. NS1 required a lot of teamwork but it required it in the wrong places. UWE is doing a great job of restructuring the game.
3) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you're just making things up and jumping to conclusions. The commander has all the tools at his disposal to win a game? Show me the commander controlled marine. By the way, it <i>is</i> the role of the marines to kill stuff and it <i>is</i> the role of the commander to build stuff. Do you know how I know this? Because the marines are playing a First Person Shooter and not a First Person Builder. Furthermore, there's even more teamplay based features such as the power grid which is going to encourage communication between the genres.
Finally, the best thing about NPC builders only? It gives purpose to the game and adds another layer. Suddenly teamwork is about scouting their worker, protecting yours, attacking theirs, setting up defense points. This is teamwork based around combat and strategy rather than holding "E" after asking someone to build something for 15 seconds. When the game gives purpose to certain things, like a room or a unit such as a MAC, it encourages teamplay naturally.
<!--quoteo(post=1790272:date=Aug 1 2010, 02:31 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Aug 1 2010, 02:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Hey guys, need this node a PSJ built." 2 minutes later: "Still no one at PSJ... someone?" "Commander; I've been waiting in base for 45 seconds where is my god damn HMG!?!" "Guys, someone has to stay behind to build the node - you can't all move forward." and if you're lucky and actually get someone to build it's likely a rambo skulk is going to kill them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-This is why MACs should stay in but not be the only means of building.
-This is why people have accepted the changes to the armory.
-Again why its nice to have MACs available.
Still doesn't explain the need for marines to be incapable of building.
<!--quoteo(post=1790256:date=Jul 31 2010, 11:16 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jul 31 2010, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines building keeps at least one link of codependency between the two roles. Self-bought weapons have their own benefits but we don't want to completely break ties since now all forms of interaction are through the MACs and not directly between the comm and marines.
Ryo-Ohki explained it perfectly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand the _all_ forms of interaction... what about voice ? Comm asks marine to escort builders.. marines reply back about enemy positions to Comm and other marines etc etc... where is the bubble ? Everyone gets to focus on the meaningful tasks they do best.
FilthyLarry - I strongly disagree with your notion of what a commander's roles are. I want to have a relationship with my fellow players. It's a <b>mutliplayer </b>game. I want to have constant feedback from all my marines. I want players to inform me there are higher life forms, there are DC's out, there are multiple hives, new RTs. I want and need feedback to be a successful commander. If there is no feedback I am just in my isolated bubble. This separation stems from the separation between commander and marine, which Ryo-Oki eloquently stated, stems from a commander's ability to build and explore (originally a marine job) and a marines ability to upgrade and arm (originally a commanders job). There is separation...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
_Meaningful input_ is fine... not nagging for guns and nagging for building to get done. I don't see the bubble you see... Comm still needs marines to protect and help expand and would do well to coordinate that if he/she wants to win.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited August 2010
Well said, SentrySteve.
Considering the gorge's tasks and abilities in ns2, I think it could be a compromise to let marines build turrets, when they have a welder or another special tool, although this makes the teams again a bit more alike.
If you let marines build everything in general, even when it's at a very slow pace, you have to balance the game around it and consider a lot more abusive situations.
<!--quoteo(post=1790276:date=Aug 1 2010, 02:41 AM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Aug 1 2010, 02:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still doesn't explain the need for marines to be incapable of building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gameplay reasons. The two most obvious that come to my mind are what I said and what Pysko just said.
1) Finally, the best thing about NPC builders only? It gives purpose to the game and adds another layer. 2) If you let marines build everything in general, even when it's at a very slow pace, you have to balance the game around it and consider a lot more abusive situations.
Preventing marines from building encourages teamwork is many different ways. It forces a team to show their intentions, which encourages scouting and communication, it provides a clear target for the other team, which encourages hit and defense squads, and it promotes teamwork between the RTS and FPS side.
Allowing marines to build would basically destroy, or severely undermine, most of those points. Another thing I think a lot of people are missing is the fact that controlling builder units really makes someone feel like they're playing an RTS more so than dropping an inactive structure while someone else builds it. Despite many attempts there isn't a RTS/FPS hybrid out there that actually feels like you're playing an RTS. This, among other improvements in NS2, could change all of that.
<!--quoteo(post=1790283:date=Aug 1 2010, 07:13 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Aug 1 2010, 07:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Allowing marines to build would basically destroy, or severely undermine, most of those points. Another thing I think a lot of people are missing is the fact that controlling builder units really makes someone feel like they're playing an RTS more so than dropping an inactive structure while someone else builds it. Despite many attempts there isn't a RTS/FPS hybrid out there that actually feels like you're playing an RTS. This, among other improvements in NS2, could change all of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this reason alot better. The fact is that during this stage in the alpha we can't really test all the balance issues with this. NS2 isn't supposed to be a port of NS1 to a better engine, unlike Blizzards strategy with Starcraft (if it ain't broke don't fix it) UWE is constantly improving gameplay and doing their best to change things up and improve them. I think alot of the balance issues need to wait until we have an alpha version that really allows for extensive balance testing, if not these forums are going to get cluttered real fast.
<!--quoteo(post=1790283:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:13 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Aug 1 2010, 03:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gameplay reasons. The two most obvious that come to my mind are what I said and what Pysko just said.
1) Finally, the best thing about NPC builders only? It gives purpose to the game and adds another layer. 2) If you let marines build everything in general, even when it's at a very slow pace, you have to balance the game around it and consider a lot more abusive situations.
Preventing marines from building encourages teamwork is many different ways. It forces a team to show their intentions, which encourages scouting and communication, it provides a clear target for the other team, which encourages hit and defense squads, and it promotes teamwork between the RTS and FPS side.
Allowing marines to build would basically destroy, or severely undermine, most of those points. Another thing I think a lot of people are missing is the fact that controlling builder units really makes someone feel like they're playing an RTS more so than dropping an inactive structure while someone else builds it. Despite many attempts there isn't a RTS/FPS hybrid out there that actually feels like you're playing an RTS. This, among other improvements in NS2, could change all of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is insufficient evidence that the metagame will suffer if marines are allowed to build. This depends very much on balancing. Seemingly redundant units can be used to devastating effect. For example, in Starcraft, the terran Valkyrie is largely considered a useless unit - it requires tier 2 tech, it's expensive, and it fills a redundant role - that of anti-air support, which is already filled by the cheaper tier 1 Wraith. However, because it is so rarely seen in pro matches, they have been used to great effect when coupled with the element of surprise. Speaking from personal experience, nothing ruins your day as a zerg like 3 valkyries running around killing all your overlords. This is even more prevalent in amateur games, as players are usually worse at scouting the opponent, unsure of exact build orders, or plain just forget crucial things like anti-air.
I see no reason why MAC-only building would increase the depth of strategy more than allowing both marines and MACs to build. Competitive matches may gravitate towards one or the other (although again, i believe that even then both will be useful), but pubbing is not that organized. I fully believe that the game should not promote the e-gaming side at the heavy expense of the pub experience. A broad playerbase is what will lead to a vibrant competitive scene, not the fact that the game is so tightly balanced for competitive play out-of-box. After all, starcraft started out as a not-so-well-balanced game, then Blizzard improved the balance consecutively through patches.
As to your second argument, I see no reason why allowing marines to build will slow the pace of the game. It allows and promotes riskier play; I dunno about you but I consider standing around defending MACs as a turtling strategy.
Comments
Gorges can currently build Hydras. Only. That's it. We see from descriptions about the game that marines may well be able to build sentries in future. So there, problem solved, eh?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The marines on the other hand WERE the builders and by making them REQUIRE an AI for any expansion is really disconnecting the team from the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I see it enforcing the team to talk to the commander and vice versa, so that they know where the builder is going in order to get ahead of it and properly defend it. Before, commander said "Go to this res point and build the RT!" and marine said, "Yeah, no, I like this res point better.. once I'm there I'll call for an RT, and what are you gonna do, follow your strategy or follow mine?" The system now enforces teamwork. You want to build somewhere the commander doesn't? Tough nuts. Follow the strategy of the guy called the commander. That's why he's called the "Commander", btw. That you think it disconnects you suggests to me that you're used to getting where you want and having the commander react to you, rather than you having to react to the commander.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of directly working with the team, the commander is working with bots that the marines need to ESCORT around the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Or, the commander is working directly with the marines by keeping an eye on the MAC, making sure it moves with the group, falls back when it needs to, etc.. that you haven't had a commander that does that doesn't mean the system needs to change so much as the old habits of the commander from NS1. Perhaps you've heard of this game called Starcraft? It's an RTS game, apparantly, one in which a good commander is one that can control not only various upgrades and the like, but actually handle complex movements of their troops, advancing, flanking, retreating, etc. It turns out that there's apparantly some RTS stuff going on in NS2, and that NS2 commanders are going to be expected to be similarly skilled. I don't necessarily see that as a failure in the system at all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines don't even need to listen to the commander as long as they are following a bot around (which I doubt new players are going to want to do, and older ones are finding annoying).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So your argument here is essentially noob players act like noobs? Yeah, I can see how the MAC has suddenly made that come to the fore.. oh wait.. If marines just follow the bot around, marines are going to lose, as the aliens will jump on said bot and eat it. Marines need to lead the bot to make sure where it's going is clear. This requires, once again, <i>more</i> interaction with the Commander, not less.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before at the least marines could scout out RTs and then REQUEST them from the comm. I guess you can do the same now but you have to wait for the poor vulnerable bot to travel the map and hopefully make it to your position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And again we see the reality. Your problem isn't that the Commander is separated from the marine so much, (because we've shown it isn't) it's that the Commander has been put in the Commanding role and the marine has to act as.. well.. a marine under command, rather than a rambo.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So not only are MACs being the only builders slowing the game down, it is disconnecting the marines from their comm since all the comm cares about is the yellow noisy things surviving.
"Team deathmatch with commanders doing their own thing" seems to be the current state of this system and by arguing "you shoulda known better to follow the bot" doesn't change the fact people don't want to HAVE to do this. Smart or dumb AI it is still frustrating to not get to build yourself. The task of building in itself required alertness and skill, now you just shoot at anything that moves and hope they don't touch the bot...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd suggest your problem is that you need better commanders. If you really want the tension of building, you could always go face a wall for a while and see if you can manage to count to 30 before turning around. That seems to require the same level of alertness and skill.
What about the NS2 build system makes it 'very unbalanced'?
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The drifters seem to expire on building. MACs stick around after building. If you allow marines to build without a MAC, this really makes building much more overpowered for the marine side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I want gorges to be able to build as well, but if drifters expiring makes the aliens unbalanced that's already an issue not one caused by the suggestion. Besides that sort of thing can be balanced asymmetrically through various ways (unit cost, strength, speed etc.).
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you think about it, you end up with teams of players sitting around assist building stuff instead of engaging the enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not how it went in my experiences playing NS1, with buildbots that can do the job if a marine doesn't it should be even less likely.
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Things change. Change is not necessarily bad. Learn to cope or life will be very unhappy for you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mind good and necessary change, taking away players ability to build is a bad and unnecessary change.
<!--quoteo(post=1790080:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:25 AM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Aug 1 2010, 03:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Watch out, you'll get called a troll.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you make posts like that you're asking for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1790112:date=Aug 1 2010, 05:44 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 1 2010, 05:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For all those who say they can't see any negatives if marine are allowed to build as well, can you please address the argument of how MACs make for roving choke-points, which gives the battles a more defined front -- making them more intense and the game more e-sports compatible. Both of which I believe have been stated to be part of the basic design philosophy of NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you would please explain what you mean by roving choke-points and why limiting building to bots is necessary to achieve it.
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The other argument that I haven't seen refuted well is that the exact same thing is happening on the alien side, where builders are commander controlled. Giving all marines the ability to build while forcing all of the responsibility for alien building to fall on one player does not seem balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My 'argument' encompasses both marines and aliens, I refer to drifters and buildbots as both bots/AI and gorges/marines as players. Not sure about others in the thread though.
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, can we just drop the whole "I don't want to escort a dumb AI argument" because as has been pointed out, the pathfinding isn't dumb, and beyond that, it's not a dumb AI, it's a commander controlled unit. If you don't like the way it's moving, blame your commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The semantics of whether AI is 'dumb' or not aside, I think it's valid to state you would prefer the option to do a build job yourself instead of always having to escort a bot.
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would you people have similar arguments if building was restricted to a certain class of marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally no.
<!--quoteo(post=1790078:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 1 2010, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If not, then there's your answer, jump in the com chair, and hey, you're that marine class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being commander is not the same thing, it involves specific responsibilities and far more than just placing buildings.
He's read what you and others wrote. He understands what you're saying. He simply doesn't agree.
Just because allowing Marines to help build would make some people happy, doesn't mean it's a good idea.
I'm with him.
Plus I think this whole conversation is useless at this point, lets actually play a few rounds of NS2 as intended and then discuss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I am still waiting to hear WHY it's not a good idea, I have even asked for someone to post how this will in anyway create LESS strategies, variety and fun. I have given plenty of examples for this in previous post, I would at least like in return a few examples from the people that oppose it, outside of just saying, no.
If so, why wouldn't they be able to create a building where the bot can...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welders in NS1 were just for repairing existing structures, rather than building/finishing them. They'd probably be for sealing doors in NS2 as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1790122:date=Aug 1 2010, 06:36 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 1 2010, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see it enforcing the team to talk to the commander and vice versa, so that they know where the builder is going in order to get ahead of it and properly defend it. Before, commander said "Go to this res point and build the RT!" and marine said, "Yeah, no, I like this res point better.. once I'm there I'll call for an RT, and what are you gonna do, follow your strategy or follow mine?" The system now enforces teamwork. You want to build somewhere the commander doesn't? Tough nuts. Follow the strategy of the guy called the commander. That's why he's called the "Commander", btw. That you think it disconnects you suggests to me that you're used to getting where you want and having the commander react to you, rather than you having to react to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your negative, generalized view of typical commander-player interaction was true players would just ignore the bots anyway. It doesn't enforce teamwork, it just limits the commander's options (needing to use a bot instead of asking a player) and player's abilities.
What we're suggesting would still allow the commander to use bots when players are not cooperating.
No, not problem solved. The NS1 gorge was a class that could be switched to to do many different things. By splitting the gorge's abilities up the gorge is now a frontlines defense and the comm manages everything behind the aliens (what the gorge used to do when capping RTs since it could barely defend itself better than a drifter anyway without wasting res). This change has benefits. For the marines side this change was not needed and is just frustrating.
<!--quoteo(post=1790122:date=Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Follow the strategy of the guy called the commander. That's why he's called the "Commander", btw. That you think it disconnects you suggests to me that you're used to getting where you want and having the commander react to you, rather than you having to react to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No see, in pub play a lot of the time the comm is not so good at commanding and it HELPS to run off scout RTs on your own and request them because you know that is what you were supposed to do anyway. In competitive play obviously everyone will play their roles better, but we don't want the game to break if people aren't good at their roles. This helps scare away new players.
<!--quoteo(post=1790122:date=Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So your argument here is essentially noob players act like noobs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. At least noobs in NS1 could still be useful if they found themselves lost in some section of the map with an RT near them. The comm could then drop it, the marine would build it and feel a great sense of accomplishment <b>especially because he was a noob that accomplished something</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=1790122:date=Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines need to lead the bot to make sure where it's going is clear. This requires, once again, <i>more</i> interaction with the Commander, not less.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No this is interaction with the bot. The comm interacts with the bot which is then escorted by the marines. Most of the direct comm->marine interaction has now been eliminated (no weapon drop etc), and probably the only thing the comm has to say to the players is "ok guys im sending a bot here please take care of it because your squad is useless if you lose it".
<!--quoteo(post=1790122:date=Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 31 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd suggest your problem is that you need better commanders. If you really want the tension of building, you could always go face a wall for a while and see if you can manage to count to 30 before turning around. That seems to require the same level of alertness and skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this supposed to be joke? If you think facing a wall for 30 seconds and building are logically equivalent... you really need to learn logic.
Exactly how it is now with absolutely no changes. You are confused, I have never once closed my ears to their arguments, I have produced counter-points to all. My opinion on the matter though is unchanged and will remain unchanged regardless of any points raised, I will shoot them down.
Calling me a troll in a post doesn't actually benefit your argument, it simply reduces what you say down into name calling regardless of the content.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow, who died and made you sole arbiter of the wishes of the NS community?
As a player in the field you had the choice to either go where the action is, grouping as a team, holding strategic points, or you could be the engineer running around scouting the less frequented areas, getting up stuff, maybe sneaking up stuff behind enemy line whatsoever.
For myself, having both choices was fun.
With ns2 the players in field don't have the option to build. Is that good? Is it fun? Actually I'n not sure yet. On the one hand, great. I don't need to take care of bulding stuff. On the other.. meh.. no more being the engineer. But I'm not convinced yet that this missing feature is bad for the overall feeling. Maybe it will work out when everything else is implemented.
Then I wouldn't want you as my com haha.
My personal idea is that Marines with some tool (say a welder) will be able to speed up production and perhaps place some buildings like a RT. Similarly, Gorges should have the ability to place a RT. Players would build slower than their respective MAC/Drifter.
This restores some of the NS1 enjoyments. Power building is viable again. A solo marine can help re-capture points. While the MAC is diminished in reliance, it is not removed since the MAC is still the best way to build everything. Plus, comms are not reliant on their players to build everything for them, thereby reducing the annoyance on the commanders.
We therefore develop a compromise. Comms are still more strongly disjointed, which is beneficial to let them manage the RTS aspect better. However, players can still aid their commander and take part in the RTS aspect, which is crucial especially for players who are not as apt at fighting.
Incorrect. In NS1, the commander and his marines each had an extremely complimentary role. They both needed the other to do almost anything. Marines needed the commander to drop them medpacks, ammo, guns, special equipment, pretty much everything. The commander though couldn't directly do anything much on his own; he needed Marines to build his structures and carry out his strategy. In effect, the system forced the Marine team to co-ordinate at every level, creating a synergy that if broken usually lead to disaster.
Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa. And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.
I'd use a mixture of both, depending on the situation and coordination of the team. There isn't always players who are willing to build for you exactly where you want whenever you want.
I still don't understand why some people are against having the option.
Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa. And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa. And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well said, this is one of the points I have been missing in my arguments, the disunity it would create between marine and commander, when as you said in NS1, it was the very bond and essence of the entire marine game.
Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa. And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This can't be quoted enough.
Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa. And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, I think this is a well thought out post. Indeed thats about the situation I remember the times I played NS1 on the Marine team.
However, there's a fine line between synergy and codependency which I think you touched on with the "if broken usually lead to disaster part".
As a marine I don't want to be that tied to the comm for a weapon... after all I have eyes on the ground which means I have a better chance of knowing what weapon is more useful for the current situation and what weapon I'm best with. Similarly as a comm I don't want to be "nagged" for this gun and that gun. That sort of micro-management is not helpful IMO... it has the potential to be an irritation to both.
As a comm I want to concentrate on the "bigger picture"... not spam medi-kits and beg someone to build a tower. As a marine I want to be able to focus on the threat that is the aliens first and foremost with my weapon - leaving the grand design to victory to the commander - not sneaking into a place somewhere - unauthorized chances are - and then declare that the commander should build around my position because I know better.
In other words, there _should_ be two different games going on.... the RTS and the FPS. However; there is no way to separate them completely ... commanders and marines will always be tied together. Like you said it may not be as immediately obvious to new people but all games have learning curves. Commanders and marines will learn quickly that working together is to the benefit of everyone - after all this is what distinguishes good teams from mediocre teams - and if they don't they they'll keep losing until they do... "naturally selected behaviour" if you ask me.
Ryo-Ohki explained it perfectly.
Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa. And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
FilthyLarry - I strongly disagree with your notion of what a commander's roles are. I want to have a relationship with my fellow players. It's a <b>mutliplayer </b>game. I want to have constant feedback from all my marines. I want players to inform me there are higher life forms, there are DC's out, there are multiple hives, new RTs. I want and need feedback to be a successful commander. If there is no feedback I am just in my isolated bubble. This separation stems from the separation between commander and marine, which Ryo-Oki eloquently stated, stems from a commander's ability to build and explore (originally a marine job) and a marines ability to upgrade and arm (originally a commanders job). There is separation...
In NS1 everyone hated being the commander, at the start of every game there would be "who wants to comm..." then someone would almost have to forfeit their game in order to do something they disliked. The point of the MACs is to make being a commander more rewarding and exciting.
I highly doubt it's going to change, UWE is obviously set on this path.
Deal with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can please both crowds, you are just opting to choose not to.
I forgot this game was all about the commander. Maybe this should be a RTS game not an RTS+FPS.
In NS1 people didn't hate being commander it's just FPS people are often very poor at RTS and commanding and so there were not many people who were "good" at commanding. There was a fair bit of pressure being commander too and coming up with the strategies and winning combination.
<!--quoteo(post=1789534:date=Jul 31 2010, 04:17 AM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Jul 31 2010, 04:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can agree somewhat with how people enjoy building RTs but also a lot of people die while trying to build them. They are in someway trying to make this game simpler for those who aren't the best at backing away and killing skulks while in the middle of building up an RT, at least now you can stay in front of the Rt protect it and you still did your job of getting that RT up even if you weren't the one to press 'e' for 15 seconds to build it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That makes no sense...
If a game is hard because you have to aim, do you give everyone auto-aim? If camouflage is too hard to see do you make everyone fluorescent?
Why are we making it "n00b" friendly? People require practice to get better at a game and gain skill.
For those that don't want to build, follow a build-bot and try and keep him alive. Or let the commander try and deal with the build-bots on his own or let others build simple.
For those that can't deal with building and defending at the same time keep up with a group of marines or follow a build-bot.
For those that are competent/skilled enough they can build and defend against skulks/aliens at the same time ALA NS1 more power to them.
If skill is removed from a game it becomes boring.
Have Marines be able to give up a weapon or two in order to take a build kit that has a limited construction ability. IE it can build a turret, *other turret like structures if they come out with them* and Resource Nodes *takes as much time as a tower to build, lesser income, less hp , can be upgraded with a MAC* and the pack also containers a welder for patching armor
So people who want to play a support role can do so, however MACs will still be the main builders in the sense that they are the only real builders can upgrade the base and build full fledged resource towers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My problem is people are throwing "Well in NS1 you had welders" around which is well and good if your goal is to help build in the same sentence as "marines should be able to build structures on their own" which is something completely absent in NS1 (unless you count combat mode which you know we don't) as well as a completely new feature that isn't even in existence in any way shape or form other than gorges. I understand the welder argument, if only because it beats trodding back and forth from the armory every time a skulk scratches your dingy, but saying "we can't build, this is nothing like NS and you're stupid if you disagree" is a completely different argument. Teleporters are gone, so there's no insta-drop. Let's just pull an unreal tournament logic and say they caused craziness and death, and so are banned now in the universe. Now you need a MAC to drop something. By that logic, you assisting is great and good. I have a feeling a large number of players miss being able to do ninja drops which really seemed more a combat mode thing, and so I just feel like we need to separate the groups into "I miss welders" and "I want to build like in combat mode."
Also, since I'm too stupid to quote two people before typing this, I don't get why there will be a disconnect between marines and the commander because of the MAC. Yes, the MAC can build. That's wonderful. It's also not very durable and isn't much (and right now nothing) in a fight. It's HP is crummy and can't weld and kill at the same time. Guess why? Because it's designed to be protected by players. If you want to accomplish something, I think the necessity between marines and Commander will be even greater than if they're just "I built this ding I'm going to do something else." I've said this previously, but it needs to be said again - the MAC is a tool the commander uses to get stuff done. Most people themselves have admitted that they were the only ones who were doing building during games. Guess what, when you're not around noone's doing building, at least not without anger. This gives the team at least a slight chance of getting the resources they need to do something. Besides that, it's on the marine themselves to reserve resources to buy the proper gear that the commander specs out. It seems that now, more than ever before in NS1, your upgrades are going to have a major impact on what units come out into the field and a specialist, properly specced squad will outdo any generalist 1 of everything unit. Those points will be a big deal and a wrong investment might be more damaging than solo'ing, especially if noone's going to help the comm out when he's got to capture points. This again promotes unity. I'm tired so I'll end this hear and if it's too incoherent I'll try to clear it up.
<!--quoteo(post=1790219:date=Jul 31 2010, 09:20 PM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Jul 31 2010, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Incorrect. In NS1, the commander and his marines each had an extremely complimentary role. They both needed the other to do almost anything...In effect, the system forced the Marine team to co-ordinate at every level, creating a synergy that if broken usually lead to disaster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true, which is why the RTS aspect in NS1 was <i>horrible.</i> I could go into why but to an actual RTS player NS1's RTS shortcomings should be blatant. Allowing structures to only be built by the commanders is a major improvement to NS's RTS side and for NS's gameplay in general.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The above quote is a baseless assumption that disregards the vast majority of the public's NS1 experience. It does sound really good though.
What is the typical communication you usually saw in pubs between commanders and marines?
"Hey guys, need this node a PSJ built." 2 minutes later: "Still no one at PSJ... someone?"
"Commander; I've been waiting in base for 45 seconds where is my god damn HMG!?!"
"Guys, someone has to stay behind to build the node - you can't all move forward." and if you're lucky and actually get someone to build it's likely a rambo skulk is going to kill them.
This kind of communication that you seem to value so much isn't some pinnacle of teamplay that we should try to be preserving. By allowing each side to do the most basic and fundamental tasks assigned to their RTS/FPS roles you actually open up communication to allow people to talk about things that matter like general strategy or attack plans and both side can have fun while doing it.
Why you're wrong / why this is system is better than NS1:
1) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1...Marines needed the commander to drop them...pretty much everything. The commander...needed Marines to build his structures and carry out his strategy. In effect, the system forced the Marine team to co-ordinate at every level, creating a synergy that if broken usually lead to disaster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People play games to have fun. For the average gamer does any of that sound fun to you? From spending years in pubs across various games I can tell you that teamplay is rare and not to be expected no matter how easy the developer's make it. Requiring a game to force teamplay upon everyone, with the alternative "leading to disaster," is not the way you build a fun game for the public. Teamwork is good but forcing teamwork for the most basic aspects only leads to frustration and each side playing half of their respective genre.
2) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, the commander can, and infact only can, build his own structures. Marines can now upgrade their own weapons. The result is that in effect, the Commander and the Marines are now playing two seperate games. Synergy has been replaced with disunity. If Commanders don't need their Marines as much, they won't communicate with them as much, and vice versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines will still need RT's for their personal income. Granted, last we heard res for kills was in NS2 however unless you're a top tier player you're not going to be getting enough kills to sustain the equipment you want. You will need those RTs and you will need to work with your commander. Oh hey look, <i>meaningful</i> teamwork. NS1 required a lot of teamwork but it required it in the wrong places. UWE is doing a great job of restructuring the game.
3) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And that's without taking into account new players. A new player to NS2 will spawn in on the Marine team, look around, and quickly come to the conclusion that it's his job to prod buttock and chew nanite gel, whilst it's the commanders' job to build stuff. He won't see any need to protect MACs because he sees the roles as entirely seperate. A new Commander won't see any need to work with his Marines either, because he has all the tools at his disposal to play entirely independantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you're just making things up and jumping to conclusions. The commander has all the tools at his disposal to win a game? Show me the commander controlled marine. By the way, it <i>is</i> the role of the marines to kill stuff and it <i>is</i> the role of the commander to build stuff. Do you know how I know this? Because the marines are playing a First Person Shooter and not a First Person Builder. Furthermore, there's even more teamplay based features such as the power grid which is going to encourage communication between the genres.
Finally, the best thing about NPC builders only? It gives purpose to the game and adds another layer. Suddenly teamwork is about scouting their worker, protecting yours, attacking theirs, setting up defense points. This is teamwork based around combat and strategy rather than holding "E" after asking someone to build something for 15 seconds. When the game gives purpose to certain things, like a room or a unit such as a MAC, it encourages teamplay naturally.
It's a good thing people.
"Commander; I've been waiting in base for 45 seconds where is my god damn HMG!?!"
"Guys, someone has to stay behind to build the node - you can't all move forward." and if you're lucky and actually get someone to build it's likely a rambo skulk is going to kill them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-This is why MACs should stay in but not be the only means of building.
-This is why people have accepted the changes to the armory.
-Again why its nice to have MACs available.
Still doesn't explain the need for marines to be incapable of building.
Ryo-Ohki explained it perfectly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand the _all_ forms of interaction... what about voice ? Comm asks marine to escort builders.. marines reply back about enemy positions to Comm and other marines etc etc... where is the bubble ? Everyone gets to focus on the meaningful tasks they do best.
FilthyLarry - I strongly disagree with your notion of what a commander's roles are. I want to have a relationship with my fellow players. It's a <b>mutliplayer </b>game. I want to have constant feedback from all my marines. I want players to inform me there are higher life forms, there are DC's out, there are multiple hives, new RTs. I want and need feedback to be a successful commander. If there is no feedback I am just in my isolated bubble. This separation stems from the separation between commander and marine, which Ryo-Oki eloquently stated, stems from a commander's ability to build and explore (originally a marine job) and a marines ability to upgrade and arm (originally a commanders job). There is separation...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
_Meaningful input_ is fine... not nagging for guns and nagging for building to get done. I don't see the bubble you see... Comm still needs marines to protect and help expand and would do well to coordinate that if he/she wants to win.
Considering the gorge's tasks and abilities in ns2, I think it could be a compromise to let marines build turrets, when they have a welder or another special tool, although this makes the teams again a bit more alike.
If you let marines build everything in general, even when it's at a very slow pace, you have to balance the game around it and consider a lot more abusive situations.
Gameplay reasons. The two most obvious that come to my mind are what I said and what Pysko just said.
1) Finally, the best thing about NPC builders only? It gives purpose to the game and adds another layer.
2) If you let marines build everything in general, even when it's at a very slow pace, you have to balance the game around it and consider a lot more abusive situations.
Preventing marines from building encourages teamwork is many different ways. It forces a team to show their intentions, which encourages scouting and communication, it provides a clear target for the other team, which encourages hit and defense squads, and it promotes teamwork between the RTS and FPS side.
Allowing marines to build would basically destroy, or severely undermine, most of those points. Another thing I think a lot of people are missing is the fact that controlling builder units really makes someone feel like they're playing an RTS more so than dropping an inactive structure while someone else builds it. Despite many attempts there isn't a RTS/FPS hybrid out there that actually feels like you're playing an RTS. This, among other improvements in NS2, could change all of that.
Both your points and Ryo's are equally valid, and I think it's a matter of finding the right balance between the two.
I like this reason alot better. The fact is that during this stage in the alpha we can't really test all the balance issues with this. NS2 isn't supposed to be a port of NS1 to a better engine, unlike Blizzards strategy with Starcraft (if it ain't broke don't fix it) UWE is constantly improving gameplay and doing their best to change things up and improve them. I think alot of the balance issues need to wait until we have an alpha version that really allows for extensive balance testing, if not these forums are going to get cluttered real fast.
1) Finally, the best thing about NPC builders only? It gives purpose to the game and adds another layer.
2) If you let marines build everything in general, even when it's at a very slow pace, you have to balance the game around it and consider a lot more abusive situations.
Preventing marines from building encourages teamwork is many different ways. It forces a team to show their intentions, which encourages scouting and communication, it provides a clear target for the other team, which encourages hit and defense squads, and it promotes teamwork between the RTS and FPS side.
Allowing marines to build would basically destroy, or severely undermine, most of those points. Another thing I think a lot of people are missing is the fact that controlling builder units really makes someone feel like they're playing an RTS more so than dropping an inactive structure while someone else builds it. Despite many attempts there isn't a RTS/FPS hybrid out there that actually feels like you're playing an RTS. This, among other improvements in NS2, could change all of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is insufficient evidence that the metagame will suffer if marines are allowed to build. This depends very much on balancing. Seemingly redundant units can be used to devastating effect. For example, in Starcraft, the terran Valkyrie is largely considered a useless unit - it requires tier 2 tech, it's expensive, and it fills a redundant role - that of anti-air support, which is already filled by the cheaper tier 1 Wraith. However, because it is so rarely seen in pro matches, they have been used to great effect when coupled with the element of surprise. Speaking from personal experience, nothing ruins your day as a zerg like 3 valkyries running around killing all your overlords. This is even more prevalent in amateur games, as players are usually worse at scouting the opponent, unsure of exact build orders, or plain just forget crucial things like anti-air.
I see no reason why MAC-only building would increase the depth of strategy more than allowing both marines and MACs to build. Competitive matches may gravitate towards one or the other (although again, i believe that even then both will be useful), but pubbing is not that organized. I fully believe that the game should not promote the e-gaming side at the heavy expense of the pub experience. A broad playerbase is what will lead to a vibrant competitive scene, not the fact that the game is so tightly balanced for competitive play out-of-box. After all, starcraft started out as a not-so-well-balanced game, then Blizzard improved the balance consecutively through patches.
As to your second argument, I see no reason why allowing marines to build will slow the pace of the game. It allows and promotes riskier play; I dunno about you but I consider standing around defending MACs as a turtling strategy.