<!--quoteo(post=1756339:date=Mar 2 2010, 01:57 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 2 2010, 01:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can understand concerns over competitive depth but some of you guys are unbelievably resistant to change of any kind for any reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I tend to agree that some competetive players are pretty conservative. Still, I think this mostly revolves around the fact that higher the skill level, higher the bias on dynamic mobile skirmish and movement based close quarters fighting. NS is almost the last bastion of such gameplay outside the pure DM games. As Fana mentioned somewhere, he probably sees what NS2 does and if it doesn't work, he'll quit competetive gaming.
So, no wonder there's quite a bit of worry about how NS2 is going with all this casual gaming wave going on. Everything that seems to turn NS2 into more passive, stationary or simple is treated with big worry on competetive scene. I don't think alien commander was considered all that bad, most people seemed fine changes in gorge and onos and powergrid and DI are treted with a bit of worry, but also with interest. The competetive scene has also actively discussed on how the res model and system could be worked out to make the RTS smoother and more interesting. Then again when features like lockdown are presented, they seem to hurt NS exactly on the area that made it stand out in the first place for many of the players.
Posting as the worst lerk in NS I have to say that removing bite in favour of spikes is pretty dumb. Walker lerk biting is all I know how to do and now you want me to learn how to sit in vents and perched on the ceiling? How am I supposed to get knifed in matches against DL that way?
[edit] Also having gone back and read through most of the terribleness that is this thread I agree with most of what fana had to say even if he is a filthy euro.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1756351:date=Mar 2 2010, 03:41 AM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 2 2010, 03:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, it took 3 years for 3.0 Lerk to come in. You've got to remember that NS2 is a commercial game. How many commercial games have big changes after release? I'm not saying new is bad, on the contrary change is good, but I don't like lifeforms turning more monotonic and losing skill dimensions. I'm not saying this is necessarily going to happen, but I'm just not that optimistic as you are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS2, so far the fragility of the lerk is unknown, the flight model behavior is unknown, and its role in the early game is unknown. A lot of details have to match (including on the marine side) if it's to fill the same role as it did in NS.
The only real objected feature is introducing spikes as its primary weapon. I do not believe that is the same as turning it "monotonic and losing skill dimensions" or forcing anyone to sit in a vent. Aiming and shooting while flying around? If done right it can be one of the hardest roles to master.
very creative, im impressed... adds alot of depth and charisma to the short video, which ofcourse entertains and brings new onlookers to the video's. which brings me to the question, how are you guys going to advertise NS2? i and the community know its going to be a great game, but on a universal scale, who else in the world know its going to be released? Word of mouth just doesn't cut it now days...
<!--quoteo(post=1756391:date=Mar 2 2010, 08:18 AM:name=tankefugl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tankefugl @ Mar 2 2010, 08:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only real objected feature is introducing spikes as its primary weapon. I do not believe that is the same as turning it "monotonic and losing skill dimensions" or forcing anyone to sit in a vent. Aiming and shooting while flying around? If done right it can be one of the hardest roles to master.
I'm on the "hmm, interesting!" side on this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think what partitially caught people there was "He should be hiding in the rafters and in vents and attacking from range". Combine that with the sniping ability, roosting, the cinematic demonstrating lerk flying like it would in 3.2 and no mention of different flight model. I can see people forming an image of passive lerking.
I certainly hope it turns out interesting, but I felt UWE failed to demonstrate any of it on this lifeform reveal.
I would like to see an adrenaline-recharging melee attack in the game. I'm assuming the spikes are going to have a low rate of fire with large adren consumption which is going to make lerking at close range hard especially if you miss. sure you might kill a marine but getting away is the most important part of the fight.
Some sort of slashing or clawing, maybe a headbutt seems in keeping with the lerks new, blood crazed maniac personality. In the video, the lerk flies straight at a bunch of marines and fires his spikes, seems out of place that he doesn't actually make contact, there's less physical feedback from firing spikes as there is biting your prey, comprende?
The magic of the 2.0 lerk was staying close enough to your target to make it hard for him to track you. a fly by with spikes will get you killed. bloodlust would be a nice finishing move, after spiking a marine, letting you get away by giving you the adren to fly and reducing the damage you take.
johnny truantJoin Date: 2008-03-09Member: 63827Members, Reinforced - Silver
edited March 2010
Loving the new lerk - Only thing i'm not 100% on is the eyes, more squinty would be good perhaps? Also, I understand its extremely gratifying to insult strangers over the internet (apparently) but why doesn't everyone put the arguing on hold until we all start playing the alpha? You do all realise that the point of that is to gradually progress to the finished, perfect, end product and that this is just a "here's what we've done so far, it's not finished yet" post? Love and hugs, people. Also: skulk races.
Keep up the good work chaps, alpha will be sick :D
In NS1 the aliens typically had one single tactic: hit and run. With mid-range spikes the aliens gets one more distance weapon. That's variation, which means more fun. Mid-range spikes probably requires just as much skill as an LMG. You can't really compare it, true, but anyway, you don't hear anyone complaining about the risk of lone LMG'ers sitting around shooting at res towers. When NS1 had lerk spikes, the game was new and there where more newbies and the games where dumber. Spending minutes at single-handedly destroying structures with spikes is a bad tactic. Takes too long, keeps the lerk away from more important stuff. It's better to let a few skulks bite it instead.
Lerk bite meant you had to get in close and that takes more skill than to sit still and shoot spikes. That's true, but the Lerk reveal clearly says that the spikes begins to do damage at mid-range. To me that indicates that the spikes do more damage the closer you get.
People are still saying "But ehh this removes the skill factor"?!
No one is forcing you to sit in a vent for 15 minutes, jesus christ. Even if you did, you most likely wouldn't be as much of use to the team and would sooner or later die to gunfire/grenade.
Again, it's said to be mid-short range and thus would require you to be close to deal maximum damage. I do not think flying around and shooting spikes will be any easier than biting. At all. Stop jumping to conclusions just because something got changed, chill the **** out.
I do agree however that reducing Skulk speed and making them sturdier does remove some skill requirements.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is so surreal. I remember several months ago people using TF2 as an example of a game that is designed for the lowest common denominator and a game that is void of skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well it certainly has competitive appeal. I know lots of NS clanners who play the game, and it actually brought a whole bunch of ns oldschoolers back in, but on the other hand I also get the message in the end its still not nearly as good as NS1, and some were just "waiting for NS2".
<!--quoteo(post=1756391:date=Mar 2 2010, 10:18 AM:name=tankefugl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tankefugl @ Mar 2 2010, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only real objected feature is introducing spikes as its primary weapon. I do not believe that is the same as turning it "monotonic and losing skill dimensions" or forcing anyone to sit in a vent. Aiming and shooting while flying around? If done right it can be one of the hardest roles to master.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll repeat what Fana said. If its very short-range, this wouldn't be a problem but I just doubt it when the news post originally said (now removed) that the lerk should be hiding in <b>vents and shooting from range</b>. This is a phrase that kind of made me facepalm.
Also, I object this <b>roosting</b> thing aswell. Its practically just an oc in the ceiling, since when NS was about OCs, turtling and turrets. Atleast in NS1, any stationary alien is dead alien, I'm very skeptical whether this'll be useful at all. Since turrets seem to be getting stronger, and there's a power grid system, I have serious fears NS2 will resemble siege maps of NS1. Static warfare sucks, oknp, don't endorse it, please.
It doesn't even have to be high-range. Just mid-range is <b>too much</b>. Think about the vent between Cargo and Y-Junc in Veil or Vent in C12. Anyone can spore or spike from those vents, but if it comes down to bite-soloing lmg marines, skill is required (more in long corridors but that's another story). Yes maybe bad lerks will fly out open, but if you can deal damage from vent, there's no reason to risk. Its just spore but with centered damage instead of area effect. Since marines can't even bhop, hitting them will be easy.
Besides the idea with Bite is high-rate DPS unlike spore, which can be more or less easily countered with meds. Bite can be countered aswell but it requires fast reflexes from the com and doesn't work always.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 the aliens typically had one single tactic: hit and run. With mid-range spikes the aliens gets one more distance weapon. That's variation, which means more fun. Mid-range spikes probably requires just as much skill as an LMG. You can't really compare it, true, but anyway, you don't hear anyone complaining about the risk of lone LMG'ers sitting around shooting at res towers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I always liked the fact aliens were melee and marines ranged. You needed agility to avoid lmg fire. In current NS1, skulks could wallhop, bhop, circle strafe etc. to avoid lmg fire. Hitting marines on the other hand is rather easy because they don't really move fast or bhop around.
ps. I was gonna do a funny competitive edition of the lerk reveal but my crap Sony Vegas can't handle mp4.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Look, if there's one thing I learned with absolute certainty as my time as an NS dev is that you cannot argue with people who have crystal balls. They, through some miracle of creation, can see the future, and they will NOT listen to any call for calm reasoned and open minded curiosity to the possibilities of change, but will constantly cripple any argument you bring to them with the inadequacies of the past.
I would suggest we just move on and ignore them, but that's the other thing I learned, people can't ignore them ;)
Yeah if devs post alpha is going to start with ns2_siege007 we should just say hey got no crystal balls, stop whining. Seriously puzl, I don't see whats the harm of theoretical argument because it'll produce more information to make more educated decisions. As long as its not "yesnoyesnoyesno" -argument, it'll be useful. Its not like NS2 devs have the energy, <b>time</b> and money to waste. At some point you have to realize, they we cannot do 30 weapons and see what works and what doesn't. They didn't even have the resources (I reckon) to add knife, thus taser was born. If we can optimize it to the best possible with alternatives with lessons learned from NS2, would it not be useful?
I've never said it was 100% mistake, I just said I have a bad feeling about this. With reason. It took 5 years to get NS1 to proper state, at some point, you'll have to make educated decisions with educated reasoning for the development path. Do I have the right to blame you if roosting flops and NS2 devs say, "hey we know its not that good, but sorry, we're out of money to make a replacement weapon, so its going to be in".
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2010
<!--QuoteBegin-Jiriki+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll repeat what Fana said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't have to, I think it has been repeated quite a lot already ;)
You have your fears, fair enough, but I do believe they are grossly exagerated and argued from an (understandably) firmly rooted NS1 viewpoint. I do not believe the details in the gameplay dynamics will be similar enough in NS1 and NS2 for it to be a valid comparison.
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would suggest we just move on and ignore them, but that's the other thing I learned, people can't ignore them ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It won't work, I'm too emotionally engaged ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1756421:date=Mar 2 2010, 03:08 PM:name=tankefugl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tankefugl @ Mar 2 2010, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't have to, I think it has been repeated quite a lot already ;)
You have your fears, fair enough, but I do believe they are grossly exagerated and argued from an (understandably) firmly rooted NS1 viewpoint. <b>I do not believe the details in the gameplay dynamics will be similar enough in NS1 and NS2 for it to be a valid comparison. </b> [emphasis added]
It won't work, I'm too emotionally engaged ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm afraid that you are right. Most of the news we've gotten paints the picture of a completely new game with new gameplay and different player mechanics in NS2. Those of us who wish for a revival of ns1 with an increased player base, a ns 4.0 if you wish, will probably be sorely disappointed.
On a somewhat related point, here's a <a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114301" target="_blank">link</a> to an article discussing Starcraft 2 in relation to SC: BW from a competetive and progaming fan standpoint. It's an interesting read I figure, especially the second part.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Roost We plan on allowing the Lerk to hold his crouch key when near a ceiling to flip upside down and roost there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Roost is like crouch for marines you dont have to use it if you don't want to. It's to help you aim spikes without sitting on the ground but also makes you vulnerable because you are stationary...
I think TF2 is a fantastic example of an extremely casual accessible braindead kiddy game for children, that still manages to have a competitive scene. Sure it's no Starcraft and it has some balance problems(namely half the classes being useless at those team sizes and skill level, which I'm sure NS can improve on), but it's plenty competitive for 90% of the people who are concerned about skill caps. Don't get me wrong, NS2 is a very different game especially in the teamwork department, but from an accessibility perspective that's about as good as success stories get.
If Lerk spikes actually do end up being made for sitting around in vents spamming at marines from a distance, I promise I'll join you guys in complaining about it on internet forums all day. In the mean time all I ask is that people recognize that it's possible to do it right, and there's no reason it can't be made that way after beta starts whatever your crystal balls are showing about the devs' intentions right now.
I don't think we can start discussing balance and gameplay issues, without first actually playing the game. As NS2 introduces a lot of new gameplay changes, it would be best for us to play the alpha first, so we can then give feedback. Doing it now is just pointless as NS1 wont give us a decent enough reference.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1756412:date=Mar 2 2010, 01:38 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 2 2010, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look, if there's one thing I learned with absolute certainty as my time as an NS dev is that you cannot argue with people who have crystal balls. They, through some miracle of creation, can see the future, and they will NOT listen to any call for calm reasoned and open minded curiosity to the possibilities of change, but will constantly cripple any argument you bring to them with the inadequacies of the past.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's funny how you seem to assume that just because we're voicing concerns, somehow we've completely forgotten that NS2 is a new game. Yes, I know NS2 won't be NS1, nor do I want it to be. No, I don't pretend I can see the future, nor do I claim that experience from NS1 will necessarily be applicable to NS2. That is also why I've made my arguments with reference to gameplay and balance constraints. Of course, in order to illustrate my points, I've used references to how the Lerk works in NS1.
I'm not claiming that I'm necessarily right in everything I say, but I'm going to do my damned best to make the argument for what I believe in. I find it strange that instead of attacking my arguments, you're attacking me for voicing them.
I also disagree with what seems to be the pervasive notion on these boards, that any criticism is somehow a directed attack against the developers. I find it hard to believe that they need you defending them from differing opinions, made with the best intentions. Having a forum full of "yes men" certainly isn't going to do anyone any favours in the long run.
What I wanted to say in my first post is that some people come here and talk like the game is going to suck because of the changes, but they didn't even play the game yet. Wait till you play the alpha to say that the changes sucks. I guess sometimes we don't like the some changes because we think about NS 3.0 with that change. But we can't think that way because it's a totally different engine here.
And if the game really sucks for us, we will be able to just change it to the way we want it, since LUA is easy to work with.
I'm not saying we can't dislike the changes, but some people exaggerate too much.
For example, for me the idea of reducing Skulk speed is horrible. But I guess I should wait and play the game since a lot of things are changed (engine, models, gameplay, damage of weapons/attacks...). After it I will really be able to say if it sucked or was a good change.
That's just what I think, I really don't care if someone doesn't like/agree with my thoughts.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited March 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1756481:date=Mar 2 2010, 09:17 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Mar 2 2010, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756481"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not claiming that I'm necessarily right in everything I say, but I'm going to do my damned best to make the argument for what I believe in. I find it strange that instead of attacking my arguments, you're attacking me for voicing them. Not only is it bad debate practice, but it's extremely rude. Especially coming from someone I've previously had a lot of respect for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was talking to jiriki actually. And there is no argument to attack anyway, just rampant speculation. I've already stated that I have concerns about lerk spikes, I think it is a bad design direction, but I'm keeping an open mind until I've played the class. That's all I'm suggesting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also disagree with the pervasive notion on these boards, that seems to be that any criticism is somehow a directed attack against the developers. I find it hard to believe that they need you defending them from differing opinions, made with the best intentions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The tinfoil hat doesn't suit you. I'm just having a conversation on the forums. Am I not entitled to post my opinion?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having a forum full of "yes men" certainly isn't going to do anyone any favours in the long run.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A forum full of "yes men" is not going to do any favours for the game, but neither is a forum of "no men".
In my honest opinion, anyone jumping to conclusions about the lerk classed based on a few lines on the front page before anyone has actually played the game is not being objective.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1756500:date=Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was talking to jiriki actually. And there is no argument to attack anyway, just rampant speculation. I've already stated that I have concerns about lerk spikes, I think it is a bad design direction, but I'm keeping an open mind until I've played the class. That's all I'm suggesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure how much clearer I can be, but I'll try one more time: Voicing our theoretical concerns doesn't mean we can't change our minds in the future after trying it out. I've made a rational argument for why the developers shouldn't (as I see it) waste their time continuing down this path. What they decide to do is obviously up to them.
<!--quoteo(post=1756500:date=Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Am I not entitled to post my opinion?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's what I was asking, although not as directly. Don't you think this is a bit hypocritical, considering what you're saying boils down to "shut up"?
<!--quoteo(post=1756500:date=Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A forum full of "yes men" is not going to do any favours for the game, but neither is a forum of "no men".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Try counting and comparing the amount of positive and negative replies in this thread -- or any thread on this forum for that matter. We're not exactly having a balanced debate of pros and cons.
<!--quoteo(post=1756500:date=Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my honest opinion, anyone jumping to conclusions about the lerk classed based on a few lines on the front page before anyone has actually played the game is not being objective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If what I've been doing is "jumping to conclusions", then we can pretty much scrap these forums as there's nothing to post other than oohs and aahs, and perhaps a few spore mine requests.
In any case I'm quite happy with the way this thread has progressed. Now we actually have a reasonable debate about how we want the Lerk to perform, even if some of our assumptions don't necessarily have any basis in reality. I think it's sad that so many of you would prefer it if this debate never happened just because we don't know for sure how the alpha will play.
This is incredibly amatuer. Why are you releasing this unfinished ingame footage. Could you imagine valve or gearbox ever churning out crap like this. Also releasing these class specifications without any real testing does nothing but generate useless discussion. Why not wait till you've tested some of these ideas and save yourself the hassle of all this BS.
<!--quoteo(post=1756519:date=Mar 2 2010, 10:47 PM:name=MrBen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrBen @ Mar 2 2010, 10:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is incredibly amatuer. Why are you releasing unfinished ingame footage. Also releasing these class specifications without any real testing does nothing but generate useless discussion. Why not wait till you've tested some of these ideas and save yourself the hassle of all this BS. It seems clear to me that many lessons in development haven't been completely taken onboard<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Poor UWE... people yell at them when they don't release any information, and then when they do people call them morons and yell at them some more.
<!--quoteo(post=1756523:date=Mar 2 2010, 10:50 PM:name=Cricket)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cricket @ Mar 2 2010, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Poor UWE... people yell at them when they don't release any information, and then when they do people call them morons and yell at them some more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, maybe we should all take a chill pill...I know I will O_O
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1756519:date=Mar 2 2010, 11:47 PM:name=MrBen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrBen @ Mar 2 2010, 11:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is incredibly amatuer. Why are you releasing unfinished ingame footage. Also releasing these class specifications without any real testing does nothing but generate useless discussion. Why not wait till you've tested some of these ideas and save yourself the hassle of all this BS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think you'll find much support for that. I for one like being kept somewhat in the loop with regards to what's happening behind the scenes and I certainly don't agree that this discussion is useless.
<!--quoteo(post=1756519:date=Mar 2 2010, 05:47 PM:name=MrBen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrBen @ Mar 2 2010, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is incredibly amatuer. Why are you releasing this unfinished ingame footage. Could you imagine valve or gearbox ever churning out crap like this. Also releasing these class specifications without any real testing does nothing but generate useless discussion. Why not wait till you've tested some of these ideas and save yourself the hassle of all this BS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is insane, UWE is not Valve or Gearbox. In particular they don't have anybody whose job it is to make PR material or high quality cinematics. They are an indie developer, and it's because they're not held to the same standards that they can get away with being so much more open with their community. Most of us have wanted more information on the game's development from the start and we're getting it. Valve and Gearbox would never even dream of releasing an alpha, let alone an engine test, to the public.
Comments
I tend to agree that some competetive players are pretty conservative. Still, I think this mostly revolves around the fact that higher the skill level, higher the bias on dynamic mobile skirmish and movement based close quarters fighting. NS is almost the last bastion of such gameplay outside the pure DM games. As Fana mentioned somewhere, he probably sees what NS2 does and if it doesn't work, he'll quit competetive gaming.
So, no wonder there's quite a bit of worry about how NS2 is going with all this casual gaming wave going on. Everything that seems to turn NS2 into more passive, stationary or simple is treated with big worry on competetive scene. I don't think alien commander was considered all that bad, most people seemed fine changes in gorge and onos and powergrid and DI are treted with a bit of worry, but also with interest. The competetive scene has also actively discussed on how the res model and system could be worked out to make the RTS smoother and more interesting. Then again when features like lockdown are presented, they seem to hurt NS exactly on the area that made it stand out in the first place for many of the players.
[edit] Also having gone back and read through most of the terribleness that is this thread I agree with most of what fana had to say even if he is a filthy euro.
In NS2, so far the fragility of the lerk is unknown, the flight model behavior is unknown, and its role in the early game is unknown. A lot of details have to match (including on the marine side) if it's to fill the same role as it did in NS.
The only real objected feature is introducing spikes as its primary weapon. I do not believe that is the same as turning it "monotonic and losing skill dimensions" or forcing anyone to sit in a vent. Aiming and shooting while flying around? If done right it can be one of the hardest roles to master.
I'm on the "hmm, interesting!" side on this.
adds alot of depth and charisma to the short video, which ofcourse entertains and brings new onlookers to the video's. which brings me to the question, how are you guys going to advertise NS2? i and the community know its going to be a great game, but on a universal scale, who else in the world know its going to be released? Word of mouth just doesn't cut it now days...
can't wait to play the alpha!~~ [;
I'm on the "hmm, interesting!" side on this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think what partitially caught people there was "He should be hiding in the rafters and in vents and attacking from range". Combine that with the sniping ability, roosting, the cinematic demonstrating lerk flying like it would in 3.2 and no mention of different flight model. I can see people forming an image of passive lerking.
I certainly hope it turns out interesting, but I felt UWE failed to demonstrate any of it on this lifeform reveal.
I would like to see an adrenaline-recharging melee attack in the game. I'm assuming the spikes are going to have a low rate of fire with large adren consumption which is going to make lerking at close range hard especially if you miss. sure you might kill a marine but getting away is the most important part of the fight.
Some sort of slashing or clawing, maybe a headbutt seems in keeping with the lerks new, blood crazed maniac personality.
In the video, the lerk flies straight at a bunch of marines and fires his spikes, seems out of place that he doesn't actually make contact, there's less physical feedback from firing spikes as there is biting your prey, comprende?
The magic of the 2.0 lerk was staying close enough to your target to make it hard for him to track you. a fly by with spikes will get you killed.
bloodlust would be a nice finishing move, after spiking a marine, letting you get away by giving you the adren to fly and reducing the damage you take.
Keep up the good work chaps, alpha will be sick :D
Lerk bite meant you had to get in close and that takes more skill than to sit still and shoot spikes. That's true, but the Lerk reveal clearly says that the spikes begins to do damage at mid-range. To me that indicates that the spikes do more damage the closer you get.
No one is forcing you to sit in a vent for 15 minutes, jesus christ. Even if you did, you most likely wouldn't be as much of use to the team and would sooner or later die to gunfire/grenade.
Again, it's said to be mid-short range and thus would require you to be close to deal maximum damage. I do not think flying around and shooting spikes will be any easier than biting. At all.
Stop jumping to conclusions just because something got changed, chill the **** out.
I do agree however that reducing Skulk speed and making them sturdier does remove some skill requirements.
Well it certainly has competitive appeal. I know lots of NS clanners who play the game, and it actually brought a whole bunch of ns oldschoolers back in, but on the other hand I also get the message in the end its still not nearly as good as NS1, and some were just "waiting for NS2".
<!--quoteo(post=1756391:date=Mar 2 2010, 10:18 AM:name=tankefugl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tankefugl @ Mar 2 2010, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only real objected feature is introducing spikes as its primary weapon. I do not believe that is the same as turning it "monotonic and losing skill dimensions" or forcing anyone to sit in a vent. Aiming and shooting while flying around? If done right it can be one of the hardest roles to master.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll repeat what Fana said. If its very short-range, this wouldn't be a problem but I just doubt it when the news post originally said (now removed) that the lerk should be hiding in <b>vents and shooting from range</b>. This is a phrase that kind of made me facepalm.
Also, I object this <b>roosting</b> thing aswell. Its practically just an oc in the ceiling, since when NS was about OCs, turtling and turrets. Atleast in NS1, any stationary alien is dead alien, I'm very skeptical whether this'll be useful at all. Since turrets seem to be getting stronger, and there's a power grid system, I have serious fears NS2 will resemble siege maps of NS1. Static warfare sucks, oknp, don't endorse it, please.
It doesn't even have to be high-range. Just mid-range is <b>too much</b>. Think about the vent between Cargo and Y-Junc in Veil or Vent in C12. Anyone can spore or spike from those vents, but if it comes down to bite-soloing lmg marines, skill is required (more in long corridors but that's another story). Yes maybe bad lerks will fly out open, but if you can deal damage from vent, there's no reason to risk. Its just spore but with centered damage instead of area effect. Since marines can't even bhop, hitting them will be easy.
Besides the idea with Bite is high-rate DPS unlike spore, which can be more or less easily countered with meds. Bite can be countered aswell but it requires fast reflexes from the com and doesn't work always.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 the aliens typically had one single tactic: hit and run. With mid-range spikes the aliens gets one more distance weapon. That's variation, which means more fun. Mid-range spikes probably requires just as much skill as an LMG. You can't really compare it, true, but anyway, you don't hear anyone complaining about the risk of lone LMG'ers sitting around shooting at res towers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I always liked the fact aliens were melee and marines ranged. You needed agility to avoid lmg fire. In current NS1, skulks could wallhop, bhop, circle strafe etc. to avoid lmg fire. Hitting marines on the other hand is rather easy because they don't really move fast or bhop around.
ps. I was gonna do a funny competitive edition of the lerk reveal but my crap Sony Vegas can't handle mp4.
They, through some miracle of creation, can see the future, and they will NOT listen to any call for calm reasoned and open minded curiosity to the possibilities of change, but will constantly cripple any argument you bring to them with the inadequacies of the past.
I would suggest we just move on and ignore them, but that's the other thing I learned, people can't ignore them ;)
I've never said it was 100% mistake, I just said I have a bad feeling about this. With reason. It took 5 years to get NS1 to proper state, at some point, you'll have to make educated decisions with educated reasoning for the development path. Do I have the right to blame you if roosting flops and NS2 devs say, "hey we know its not that good, but sorry, we're out of money to make a replacement weapon, so its going to be in".
Babblers.
You don't have to, I think it has been repeated quite a lot already ;)
You have your fears, fair enough, but I do believe they are grossly exagerated and argued from an (understandably) firmly rooted NS1 viewpoint. I do not believe the details in the gameplay dynamics will be similar enough in NS1 and NS2 for it to be a valid comparison.
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would suggest we just move on and ignore them, but that's the other thing I learned, people can't ignore them ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It won't work, I'm too emotionally engaged ;)
You have your fears, fair enough, but I do believe they are grossly exagerated and argued from an (understandably) firmly rooted NS1 viewpoint. <b>I do not believe the details in the gameplay dynamics will be similar enough in NS1 and NS2 for it to be a valid comparison.
</b> [emphasis added]
It won't work, I'm too emotionally engaged ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm afraid that you are right. Most of the news we've gotten paints the picture of a completely new game with new gameplay and different player mechanics in NS2. Those of us who wish for a revival of ns1 with an increased player base, a ns 4.0 if you wish, will probably be sorely disappointed.
On a somewhat related point, here's a <a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114301" target="_blank">link</a> to an article discussing Starcraft 2 in relation to SC: BW from a competetive and progaming fan standpoint. It's an interesting read I figure, especially the second part.
Roost is like crouch for marines you dont have to use it if you don't want to. It's to help you aim spikes without sitting on the ground but also makes you vulnerable because you are stationary...
If Lerk spikes actually do end up being made for sitting around in vents spamming at marines from a distance, I promise I'll join you guys in complaining about it on internet forums all day. In the mean time all I ask is that people recognize that it's possible to do it right, and there's no reason it can't be made that way after beta starts whatever your crystal balls are showing about the devs' intentions right now.
They, through some miracle of creation, can see the future, and they will NOT listen to any call for calm reasoned and open minded curiosity to the possibilities of change, but will constantly cripple any argument you bring to them with the inadequacies of the past.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's funny how you seem to assume that just because we're voicing concerns, somehow we've completely forgotten that NS2 is a new game. Yes, I know NS2 won't be NS1, nor do I want it to be. No, I don't pretend I can see the future, nor do I claim that experience from NS1 will necessarily be applicable to NS2. That is also why I've made my arguments with reference to gameplay and balance constraints. Of course, in order to illustrate my points, I've used references to how the Lerk works in NS1.
I'm not claiming that I'm necessarily right in everything I say, but I'm going to do my damned best to make the argument for what I believe in. I find it strange that instead of attacking my arguments, you're attacking me for voicing them.
I also disagree with what seems to be the pervasive notion on these boards, that any criticism is somehow a directed attack against the developers. I find it hard to believe that they need you defending them from differing opinions, made with the best intentions. Having a forum full of "yes men" certainly isn't going to do anyone any favours in the long run.
And if the game really sucks for us, we will be able to just change it to the way we want it, since LUA is easy to work with.
I'm not saying we can't dislike the changes, but some people exaggerate too much.
For example, for me the idea of reducing Skulk speed is horrible. But I guess I should wait and play the game since a lot of things are changed (engine, models, gameplay, damage of weapons/attacks...). After it I will really be able to say if it sucked or was a good change.
That's just what I think, I really don't care if someone doesn't like/agree with my thoughts.
I was talking to jiriki actually. And there is no argument to attack anyway, just rampant speculation. I've already stated that I have concerns about lerk spikes, I think it is a bad design direction, but I'm keeping an open mind until I've played the class. That's all I'm suggesting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also disagree with the pervasive notion on these boards, that seems to be that any criticism is somehow a directed attack against the developers. I find it hard to believe that
they need you defending them from differing opinions, made with the best intentions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The tinfoil hat doesn't suit you. I'm just having a conversation on the forums. Am I not entitled to post my opinion?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having a forum full of "yes men" certainly isn't going to do anyone any favours in the long run.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A forum full of "yes men" is not going to do any favours for the game, but neither is a forum of "no men".
In my honest opinion, anyone jumping to conclusions about the lerk classed based on a few lines on the front page before anyone has actually played the game is not being objective.
I'm not sure how much clearer I can be, but I'll try one more time: Voicing our theoretical concerns doesn't mean we can't change our minds in the future after trying it out. I've made a rational argument for why the developers shouldn't (as I see it) waste their time continuing down this path. What they decide to do is obviously up to them.
<!--quoteo(post=1756500:date=Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Am I not entitled to post my opinion?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I was asking, although not as directly. Don't you think this is a bit hypocritical, considering what you're saying boils down to "shut up"?
<!--quoteo(post=1756500:date=Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A forum full of "yes men" is not going to do any favours for the game, but neither is a forum of "no men".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try counting and comparing the amount of positive and negative replies in this thread -- or any thread on this forum for that matter. We're not exactly having a balanced debate of pros and cons.
<!--quoteo(post=1756500:date=Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my honest opinion, anyone jumping to conclusions about the lerk classed based on a few lines on the front page before anyone has actually played the game is not being objective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If what I've been doing is "jumping to conclusions", then we can pretty much scrap these forums as there's nothing to post other than oohs and aahs, and perhaps a few spore mine requests.
In any case I'm quite happy with the way this thread has progressed. Now we actually have a reasonable debate about how we want the Lerk to perform, even if some of our assumptions don't necessarily have any basis in reality. I think it's sad that so many of you would prefer it if this debate never happened just because we don't know for sure how the alpha will play.
Poor UWE... people yell at them when they don't release any information, and then when they do people call them morons and yell at them some more.
Indeed, maybe we should all take a chill pill...I know I will O_O
I don't think you'll find much support for that. I for one like being kept somewhat in the loop with regards to what's happening behind the scenes and I certainly don't agree that this discussion is useless.
That is insane, UWE is not Valve or Gearbox. In particular they don't have anybody whose job it is to make PR material or high quality cinematics. They are an indie developer, and it's because they're not held to the same standards that they can get away with being so much more open with their community. Most of us have wanted more information on the game's development from the start and we're getting it. Valve and Gearbox would never even dream of releasing an alpha, let alone an engine test, to the public.
<img src="http://jiriki.kapsi.fi/img/ns/entering%20hidden%20level.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Not to mention a particular invisible wall in eclipse blocking my fade wtf, ggmrben.