La ChupacabraJoin Date: 2008-02-25Member: 63729Members
love the lerk, weas hoping for a shotgun-like spike attack, but a sniperish version sounds even better,
roost woot!
how about a make the alt-attack to spore a defensive cloud which prevents (or consumes?) the exlopsions of granades and extinguishes fire from flamethrowers (it's a supportive class after all right? it adds more depth on the marine side to try to hunt down gorges and lerks first)
I like the new lerk. The gameplay sounds really fun and although i liked the dogfights beween lerks and jet-packers i think bite won't be missed too much. The roost feature sounds fantastic. And i like the look of the lerk too, buuut... In the video after he lands on the box - idle-animation(?) - (0:27) - he has a really silly look. His eyes are pointed sideways (almost backwards) all the time. If the engine doesn't support eye movement then maybe you should place the pupils a little bit further up front by default. BTW: Will the Spark engine feature facial animations or eye movement like Source, UE3 etc etc? Not that one needs it in a fast paced multiplayer game but it would be nice (for making cutscenes and cinematics for example).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The spikes fall with gravity<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess it means this won't be a hitscan weapon so you'll have to aim in front of a moving target to hit it, rigtht?
what do ya mean by " There are a couple upgrades planned for the Lerk as well, including Adrenaline, which increases his energy recuperation and Piercing which adds extra damage " ? will the upgrades work diffrently from NS1? will each class have diffrent upgrades that the other classes dont have?
You guys are ridiculous, just because they are trading bite for spikes again doesn't mean they're the same spikes as before(they clearly aren't) or that it'll be the same Lerk as before. The old Lerk was boring because spikes were strictly a sniping ability, he was too vulnerable and they didn't have enough power to fight marines directly. The new spikes sound like a combination of the old bite and spike - closer range and more powerful. I think the playstyle will be similar to before, albeit with a little more of a bombing run feel instead of spazzing out on marines at point blank. Variety between aliens is a good thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1755823:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:23 AM:name=rammaj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rammaj @ Feb 27 2010, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what do ya mean by " There are a couple upgrades planned for the Lerk as well, including Adrenaline, which increases his energy recuperation and Piercing which adds extra damage " ? will the upgrades work diffrently from NS1? will each class have diffrent upgrades that the other classes dont have?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It sounds that way, yeah. If I were to guess I'd say upgrades won't be tied to chambers anymore and will instead there will be a handful for each lifeform, maybe based on a commander tech tree of some kind.
<!--quoteo(post=1755629:date=Feb 27 2010, 01:34 AM:name=SgtPrinny)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtPrinny @ Feb 27 2010, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you think about the fact that spore damages armor too, the thought that it does damage because it's being breathed in kinda makes no sense. If it damages the armor, then why is the heavy immune? you could argue that there's some kind of coating on the heavy, but then why could they not apply that coating on normal marine armor too?
or did the half-life engine just not allow you to ignore armor when damage is done?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unknown Worlds Entertainment, for all their talent, innovation, and determination, really just can't seem to present things extremely well. I say "extremely well" because they can certainly show us the goods, but it always lacks that extra something. I guess they've got more important things to do that slap a little extra finesse into the reveals and blog posts, but I think it'd go a long way if they did. I guess it's just an awkward feeling coming from their public relations because of mixed signals.
Right now, Overgrowth is doing their informal PR thing: "Hey, we're a group of dudes making a video game." The "office" tour is John's dirty room. Strangely enough, people love it, and it works for them! Excellent! Why not?
UWE gives a much more professional appearance: "Hey, we're a small company making a video game." Personally, I think this is the best way to present a team, but at the same time it sets some ridiculous standards you've got to be aware of. At times, UWE feels like Valve in terms of professionalism, but at others, these class reveals specifically, they feel like a "decent" mod team again. If you can't maintain that professional image every where, it gives this "awkward" feel to things that sends mixed signals. (I really wish I could describe it better than that, but hopefully that gets the point across.)
I understand that UWE is working hard, (God only knows how many profanities have echod through their halls (Both old and new halls)) but it's really killing me to see some of these media updates do so little to represent that work. For example, I was excited to see them mixing up the class reveal footage, but I honestly think they may have made it worse with the Lerk. Allow me to explain:
The Skulk, Gorge, and Onos reveals were underwhelming because they failed to utilize the video footage more. A 360 spin of the animated model is great... for showing us what it looks like. Nothing else. You can hardly get a feel of the titanic Onos when it's the only thing on the screen, and it's hard to fear a Skulk's agility when it's running in place. Showing these aspects off are critical to "reveals" because it establishes a character to expect/fear in the game. One other thing is the presentation of the abilities for each class: "A few short paragraphs describing some potential abilities in theoretical situations." I think that's more than 9/10th's of MODDB... "A picture is worth a thousand words." Don't tell me the gorge will get a damage sink ability, show me. I want to see an unlucky gorge getting ambushed by a few marines, and then his damage sink saving the day. (Don't have the damage sink functioning yet? Don't show me the gorge, to be honest.)
Now the Lerk footage almost hit all the right bases, but it really lacked some cinematic composition. It starts off with the Lerk about to ambush some Marines in a hallway. That sets the mood, gives us a feel for where the Lerk lurks, and builds some anticipation. (All before we even really see the Lerk!) But then it gets odd quick. Instead of the Lerk lurking in his typical manner, he drops down into the clear open, and chills for a bit. (And screams too, IIRC.) Then he hovers for a bit, and attacks the Marines. This is where the video made me facepalm. The Lerk is a fragile support class who attacks from the shadows at a distance. Why in the name of Max's head razor would it fly at two marines? On top of that, look at the ###### storm those few seconds of video footage caused in the Lerk thread. It's purely about the first person aiming and flight, which apparently was entirely fabricated in the cinematic, so... It doesn't really mean squat for the REAL in-game Lerk we should be expecting. So in reality, all we got again is "what it looks like" with a little atmosphere thrown in, and a few irrelevant seconds of footage that distracted almost EVERYONE. (Don't do that! lol)
I love UWE, and I love Natural Selection. It is because I love them that I've made this post, so please don't take it the wrong way. I'm just trying to help out. :)
I haven't read through the entire thread, so sorry if someone already suggested this.
For the Spore alt-fire, why not have it as more of an escape mechanism than an attack? Some of the ideas I read were that it would be like a smoke bomb with damage, but that requires you to be right beside the enemy - exactly the opposite thing you want as a Lerk.
So maybe something like a 'Smoke Trail'? So if the enemy does get to close, you activate the trail and fly off. Maybe it would do minimal damage aswell to anyone who tries to follow the Lerk through it, but more likely just create a way for the Lerk to escape or even help teammates escape aswell - the trail only lasting a few seconds.
Do you know any small game companies that have employees devoted entirely to making cinematics? You are getting way too worked up over this.
These reveals are really just meant to show us the new visual design and talk about their abilities, not a full video reveal of everything they can do in-game. Given how little the abilities have been finalized, we probably wouldn't have seen any of the species yet if you had your way. They made the Lerk video how they did to address your first complaint. But the priority is still in looking at his model, which is why he spends so long hanging out in plain sight. And what makes you think the first person gameplay footage was fabricated? Why would they waste their time doing that?
<b>"The alt-fire for spikes is new, although many community members will recognize it as an ongoing feature request. Alt-fire zooms his view and changes his spike attack into more of a sniper attack. This will let him hide in dark places and pick off marines. We also plan on adding a cool bit of flavor with this - if the sniper spike kills a marine standing near a wall, the spike will impale him up against it."</b>
does that mean a single lerk can actually take down whole shotgun rush by using alterantive spike fire?
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1755829:date=Feb 27 2010, 05:34 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys are ridiculous, just because they are trading bite for spikes again doesn't mean they're the same spikes as before(they clearly aren't) or that it'll be the same Lerk as before. The old Lerk was boring because spikes were strictly a sniping ability, he was too vulnerable and they didn't have enough power to fight marines directly. The new spikes sound like a combination of the old bite and spike - closer range and more powerful. I think the playstyle will be similar to before, albeit with a little more of a bombing run feel instead of spazzing out on marines at point blank. Variety between aliens is a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let's just clear up one misunderstanding first: The problem isn't that they changed bite to spikes, the problem is the way spikes work. A while back there were a few hints dropped that the spikes were going to work more like a shotgun, instead of the rapid fire 1.0x spikes. That would've been great. You get the excellent 3.0x Lerk gameplay, but with a twist that makes it play a little bit different and differentiates it from the other Alien classes. Instead, we got rapid fire. Now, to the meat:
Did you even read the update?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It also doesn't seem very Lerk-like to have him fly up to a structure and then sit on the ground and bite it. He should be hiding in the rafters and in vents and attacking from range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How in the hell does that sound like "similar to before"?
Even disregarding that statement, the nature of "rapid fire spikes" precludes any gameplay reminiscent of 3.x Lerking. Rapid fire means it shoots fast, so you can't make it do a lot of damage or it's going to be overpowered when sitting in a vent shooting. If each shot doesn't do a lot of damage, it's impossible to perform the kind of acrobatics needed for close combat Lerking -- it simply isn't possible to aim that well while doing it.
So OK, what if the Lerk doesn't "spaz out" and instead performs "bombing runs", as you suggest. Seriously, have you even played 3.x Lerk? I dare you, go perform bombing runs. See how many seconds you survive. A Lerk that flies straight is a dead Lerk. With rapid fire spikes, in order to deal enough damage to have a chance of killing the Marine, you have to fly straight or you won't be able to keep your aim steady on the marine. You could beef up spike damage or increase Lerk HP to counteract this, but that will make it overpowered when sitting in a vent.
I have the same problem with "perching". It's something the newbies will try out and quickly discard once they realize that being out in the open while not moving = dead Lerk. It's just another gimmick. This seems like a general problem with the NS2 development. They're putting out all these gimmicks (more than one commander, HA lockdown mode, perching, flamethrower) that do nothing to improve the gameplay, and may even make it less enjoyable.
Man, I laughed so hard seeing the Lerk shake itself off. It just looked completely psychotic and confused :P I'd have to second umbra though. Or at least SOME class should get umbra. While I'm aware that NS2 will play vastly differently, umbra really could mean the difference between a win and loss.
<!--quoteo(post=1755749:date=Feb 27 2010, 09:06 AM:name=Unsichtbar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unsichtbar @ Feb 27 2010, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But somehow i ask myself where Mr. Lerk stores all his darts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The darts are grown in that hunch that is on his back, and then rapidly move through the tubes that run from the hunch to the sides of his face.
<!--quoteo(post=1755759:date=Feb 27 2010, 09:33 AM:name=kyliegirl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kyliegirl @ Feb 27 2010, 09:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks good but I cant help but think the lerks head looks too much like an oviraptors head<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting. The Lerk does have a bit of a prehistoric feel, but I wasn't looking at those when designing the Lerk. I actually was referencing Andean Condors, which have a similar large bulge above their beaks.
<!--quoteo(post=1755441:date=Feb 26 2010, 12:13 PM:name=Atone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Atone @ Feb 26 2010, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spore alt fires:
Spore mines, Align's idea, spore spray (think flamethrower-ish), a spore cloud that burns through armor rather than health (in case of a medpack spam or whatever), or a thick, nontoxic spore cloud that blocks vision (basically a smoke grendade).
Hell, you could even make Umbra the alt fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree with 2 of these ideas...I think armor dmg wouldnt be nice because of the fact that marines need something, tho a black nontoxic cloud that disorients by making it extremely hard to see whether it be for the lerk to get away or to just confuse the marines is another amazing idea. Could be secreted instead of spit which allow the lerk to have a get away option at the cost of half energy and a cool down time maybe. Actually sounds more like a gorge ability...because they are slow..hmm.
How about a modified version of umbra...that not only slows bullets...but marines aswell...like a think mucus cloud? Hmm even better...what about a mucus cloud that coats marines and slows not only their shooting rate, but themselves aswell...instead of a gas cloud, like old umbra, the slows down the bullets/marines...so the marines would have to get it on them to have the effects. Now that would be an NS2 feature.
<!--quoteo(post=1755862:date=Feb 27 2010, 01:51 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 27 2010, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's just clear up one misunderstanding first: The problem isn't that they changed bite to spikes, the problem is the way spikes work. A while back there were a few hints dropped that the spikes were going to work more like a shotgun, instead of the rapid fire 1.0x spikes. That would've been great. You get the excellent 3.0x Lerk gameplay, but with a twist that makes it play a little bit different and differentiates it from the other Alien classes. Instead, we got rapid fire. Now, to the meat:
Did you even read the update?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You mean you were actually expecting the Lerk to shoot out spreads of 8 spikes at once in a shotgun pattern or something? I think what they meant is that it would be a shorter range, less precise weapon with higher damage, like a shotgun. Which is exactly what they did.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How in the hell does that sound like "similar to before"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who cares how they kill structures? They're right, biting RTs wasn't a very Lerk-like activity at all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even disregarding that statement, the nature of "rapid fire spikes" precludes any gameplay reminiscent of 3.x Lerking. Rapid fire means it shoots fast, so you can't make it do a lot of damage or it's going to be overpowered when sitting in a vent shooting. If each shot doesn't do a lot of damage, it's impossible to perform the kind of acrobatics needed for close combat Lerking -- it simply isn't possible to aim that well while doing it.
So OK, what if the Lerk doesn't "spaz out" and instead performs "bombing runs", as you suggest. Seriously, have you even played 3.x Lerk? I dare you, go perform bombing runs. See how many seconds you survive. A Lerk that flies straight is a dead Lerk. With rapid fire spikes, in order to deal enough damage to have a chance of killing the Marine, you have to fly straight or you won't be able to keep your aim steady on the marine. You could beef up spike damage or increase Lerk HP to counteract this, but that will make it overpowered when sitting in a vent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stop and think about it for a second. You can't just sit in a vent because the range is much shorter than before, as they said. And if that isn't enough they can balance it with a high energy drain or something. The old spikes were a weak harassment weapon, these ones are not. If they do the same burst damage as the bites or more than you can kill a marine in a single dive and fly out before they can retaliate.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have the same problem with "perching". It's something the newbies will try out and quickly discard once they realize that being out in the open while not moving = dead Lerk. It's just another gimmick. This seems like a general problem with the NS2 development. They're putting out all these gimmicks (more than one commander, HA lockdown mode, perching, flamethrower) that do nothing to improve the gameplay, and may even make it less enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It allows them to hide in ambush above a doorway like a Skulk. Previously they could only sit in a vent or on a perch. You might just want to play NS 4.0 but the rest of us are looking forward to a new game.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Wow..Zek, good job on dodging all of fana's points and makeing up your own little world to suit your arguements. If you can't even comprehend the gameplay description of the lerk by UWE, you shouldn't get into an arguement (e.g.: "He should be hiding in the rafters and in vents and attacking from range.").
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1755875:date=Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean you were actually expecting the Lerk to shoot out spreads of 8 spikes at once in a shotgun pattern or something? I think what they meant is that it would be a shorter range, less precise weapon with higher damage, like a shotgun. Which is exactly what they did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A shotgun is by definition a slow ROF high damage weapon. It can have a spread, but not necessarily. That depends on what ammo you put in it. Shotguns can fire slugs, which make them almost like a rifle with a shorter effective range. My expectations were just that, a slow ROF high powered short range weapon. What we got is a mid range fast ROF weapon, which due to balancing CAN NOT be high power.
<!--quoteo(post=1755875:date=Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who cares how they kill structures? They're right, biting RTs wasn't a very Lerk-like activity at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's obvious that statement wasn't intended just with regards to RT killing. As I described in the rest of my post, the gameplay mechanics behind RAPID FIRE spikes and the weak but agile Lerk precludes any 3.2 gameplay with the current NS2 Lerk. Shooting spikes at an RT isn't very "Lerk like" either, for that matter.
<!--quoteo(post=1755875:date=Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stop and think about it for a second. You can't just sit in a vent because the range is much shorter than before, as they said. And if that isn't enough they can balance it with a high energy drain or something. The old spikes were a weak harassment weapon, these ones are not. If they do the same burst damage as the bites or more than you can kill a marine in a single dive and fly out before they can retaliate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You seem to be trying every which way to find ways to rationalize their Lerk concept, interpreting the facts to fit your hypothesis instead of the opposite. You certainly have a strange way of interpreting "medium range". When they've already established that a key part of Lerk gameplay will be hiding and shooting from a distance (even if you interpret this as only being in relation to structures), it precludes your interpretation of "medium range" to mean what is really short range.
You also have a strange concept of NS map size in relation of placement of vents. Vents have to be placed close to key locations, for gameplay reasons. Unless the spike range is so short that they can only be used in what's effectively close combat, Lerks can in fact "just sit in a vent". If you understood the argument in my first post (which was even based on empirical data) you would also know that this is the only way a high ROF spike Lerk can be effectively played in a balanced game. Your interpretation of "rapid fire" is even wilder, with you jumping from rapid fire to burst fire, which is something else entirely.
Bear in mind, I wouldn't even be posting this if the actual Lerk was more like your interpretation. Burst fire (2-4 spikes released with one mouse click) spikes with a combined damage comparable to the 3.2 Lerk bite would be great. That would in fact be exactly what me, and many others, have been hoping for. This would of course also have to be balanced by making it a SHORT RANGE weapon. One that would not have any noticeable effect when fired from more than 2 in game meters. The secondary fire sniper spikes would serve as a great extra tool for the Lerk in that case.
<!--quoteo(post=1755875:date=Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It allows them to hide in ambush above a doorway like a Skulk. Previously they could only sit in a vent or on a perch. You might just want to play NS 4.0 but the rest of us are looking forward to a new game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know about you, but I check corners when I go through doorways. A Lerk "hiding in ambush above a doorway" is a suicide candidate.
I don't want NS2 to be identical to NS 3.2. I want a game that takes the good from 3.2, fixes the bad and adds some new flavour. I think the new Fade blink concept is a great idea, for instance. Unlike Lerk rapid fire spikes, it adds to the gameplay and appears to have no downsides. If I wanted to play an entirely different game, I'd go play... a different game.
I like the lerk reveal, although i do agree with WatchMaker that the Lerk showing himself is a bit weird, since you guys want it to be sniper like.
Two things I was hoping for is that the Lerk has it close-combat ability. Cause I think it just impossible to fight Jet-packers in the vent (assuming they can fly in the vent in NS2) or running into a marine in a corner. Another one is the lerk's flight can be maneuver to left or right, like a jet-plane. Flipping itself to left or right side in mid air is pretty cool, also help for dodging bullets.
To fanatic's argument the reason they are/might be adding the gimmicks : I believed that the UWE team said since from NS1; the marines are more developed in technology to fight the aliens, and the aliens are also evolving to fight the marines. I also read that they are fighting against the infestation thing, i'm not very sure. The onos's head is now more shield like that is why they are adding HA lockdown mode to fight that, in my believe. They could be adding the damage and accuracy into HA lockdown mode. For the flamethrower, it is planned to fight the dynamic infestation. For the multi-commander thing am not very sure, since they said they want the map to be smaller, and the "perching" i think it is just something that might come handy sometimes later on. I can't be specific yet, because I have no idea how big the map will be, but as far as i see the map are pretty low ceilinged. I just want to say that they added gimmicks, because both team are now more developed in their own ways.
well, I believe that after the alpha test there will be load of changes.
P.s. I am getting this feeling that UWE are going to make spikes the closer you get the more damage it does. That is why they made the lerk reveal flying straight into the marines.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1755898:date=Feb 27 2010, 10:26 PM:name=valkiuz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valkiuz @ Feb 27 2010, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755898"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To fanatic's argument the reason they are/might be adding the gimmicks : I believed that the UWE team said since from NS1; the marines are more developed in technology to fight the aliens, and the aliens are also evolving to fight the marines. I also read that they are fighting against the infestation thing, i'm not very sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, I'm aware. The point was, as I said, these features don't actually add anything to the gameplay, they may even detract from it. What makes NS combat fun, as opposed to all the other games out there, is the very dynamic interplay of alien close combat attacks and agility vs. the marines ranged attacks and slower (but still agile) movement. Both aliens and marines can use many techniques to get the upper hand in the fight, from the player movement skills (bunnyhopping, circle strafing, crouch and jump dodging, using the environment) and the specific alien movement abilities to player aim. Even in NS1, HA vs. Onos gameplay breaks this careful balance and turns combat into a static and boring slugout. The proposed NS2 lockdown mode will only serve to further break it, as the HAs and Onos lose even the slight movement capabilities they had before.
If the flamethrower is indeed intended to combat the dynamic infestation, this is another tenuous concept. I certainly don't want to stand around shooting flames at a wall. Of course there is a strategic element to it, so they might be able to turn this into a viable gameplay mechanism. I don't know though, the general feeling I get is that they're reducing player vs. player interplay (for instance they seem to be beefing up turrets), which is a disaster for any multiplayer game. I play multiplayer games for the challenge and social interplay of human opponents and teammates, not for static player vs. game elements.
<!--quoteo(post=1755898:date=Feb 27 2010, 10:26 PM:name=valkiuz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valkiuz @ Feb 27 2010, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755898"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well, I believe that after the alpha test there will be load of changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh certainly, this goes without saying. But there are certain things one can "know" won't work even before trying it. (bacon flavoured ice cream comes to mind)
<!--quoteo(post=1755898:date=Feb 27 2010, 10:26 PM:name=valkiuz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valkiuz @ Feb 27 2010, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755898"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->P.s. I am getting this feeling that UWE are going to make spikes the closer you get the more damage it does. That is why they made the lerk reveal flying straight into the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would be one way of fixing it, but it doesn't seem like they are going that way. If this was the case, why wouldn't the Lerk just fly up to the structure and spike it at 0 range, as opposed to their proposed "Lerk like" behaviour? I seem to remember they considered adding damage falloff to the NS1 shotgun, but decided against it. I can't remember if it was because of gameplay or coding issues though.
<!--quoteo(post=1755892:date=Feb 27 2010, 04:02 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 27 2010, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A shotgun is by definition a slow ROF high damage weapon. It can have a spread, but not necessarily. That depends on what ammo you put in it. Shotguns can fire slugs, which make them almost like a rifle with a shorter effective range. My expectations were just that, a slow ROF high powered short range weapon. What we got is a mid range fast ROF weapon, which due to balancing CAN NOT be high power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not? High ROF simply means each spike will do less damage than a shotgun blast, not that it does less damage over time. If high damage shotgun spikes can be balanced then high damage rapid fire spikes can be balanced too. This isn't complicated - whatever range you're imagining for the spikes that is too long for it to be high damage, just imagine it even shorter and bam problem solved.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's obvious that statement wasn't intended just with regards to RT killing. As I described in the rest of my post, the gameplay mechanics behind RAPID FIRE spikes and the weak but agile Lerk precludes any 3.2 gameplay with the current NS2 Lerk. Shooting spikes at an RT isn't very "Lerk like" either, for that matter.
You seem to be trying every which way to find ways to rationalize their Lerk concept, interpreting the facts to fit your hypothesis instead of the opposite. You certainly have a strange way of interpreting "medium range". When they've already established that a key part of Lerk gameplay will be hiding and shooting from a distance (even if you interpret this as only being in relation to structures), it precludes your interpretation of "medium range" to mean what is really short range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm interpreting the actual words they have used to talk about this, both in the update and in the past. Take this for example:
<a href="http://twitter.com/NS2/status/3269530530" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/NS2/status/3269530530</a> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Discussions about lerk bite vs. spikes and his view model. I think he's going to end up with <b>short-range spikes</b> and no bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The intro video clearly shows the Lerk using spikes as a close range killing weapon. The post says they have a spread(which can be seen in the video) and fall with gravity. When I think medium range I think maybe the range of a bile bomb - marine guns are all long range except the shotgun. The front page describes the old spikes as "super long range" and the current ones as "medium range," you do the math. You're the one basing his entire argument on a comment about biting RTs. For that matter, the 3.0 Lerk was also about hiding in rafters and vents and attacking from range half the time, it didn't mean he couldn't fight marines directly.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You also have a strange concept of NS map size in relation of placement of vents. Vents have to be placed close to key locations, for gameplay reasons. Unless the spike range is so short that they can only be used in what's effectively close combat, Lerks can in fact "just sit in a vent". If you understood the argument in my first post (which was even based on empirical data) you would also know that this is the only way a high ROF spike Lerk can be effectively played in a balanced game. Your interpretation of "rapid fire" is even wilder, with you jumping from rapid fire to burst fire, which is something else entirely.
Bear in mind, I wouldn't even be posting this if the actual Lerk was more like your interpretation. Burst fire (2-4 spikes released with one mouse click) spikes with a combined damage comparable to the 3.2 Lerk bite would be great. That would in fact be exactly what me, and many others, have been hoping for. This would of course also have to be balanced by making it a SHORT RANGE weapon. One that would not have any noticeable effect when fired from more than 2 in game meters. The secondary fire sniper spikes would serve as a great extra tool for the Lerk in that case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm telling you that they probably will be about that short range, i.e. not much further than the Lerk's starting point in the video. Why else would they have an alt fire sniper mode specifically to be able to shoot from vents and shadowy corners? I think you missed basically everything they've said on the matter simply to focus on that one sentence that was a little poorly phrased.
And I said burst damage(i.e. a high amount of damage in a short time), not burst fire. Rapid fire spikes could be called a burst damage weapon if they drain your energy quickly but do very high damage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about you, but I check corners when I go through doorways. A Lerk "hiding in ambush above a doorway" is a suicide candidate.
I don't want NS2 to be identical to NS 3.2. I want a game that takes the good from 3.2, fixes the bad and adds some new flavour. I think the new Fade blink concept is a great idea, for instance. Unlike Lerk rapid fire spikes, it adds to the gameplay and appears to have no downsides. If I wanted to play an entirely different game, I'd go play... a different game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It allows them to hide in ambush wherever they like. In NS Lerks can't really ambush at all, because all the places they can sit are too far away and vents are checked even more often than ceilings. Not that I think Lerks will be big on ambushing anyway, it will probably primarily be used for sniping from tall ceilings.
And they've said many times that they're following the classic sequel philosophy: 1/3 the same, 1/3 improved, 1/3 new. Calling something like the flamethrower - probably the most requested addition in NS - a useless gimmick is insane. I remember a bunch of people have asked for the ability to attach the Lerk to walls/ceilings before. They're taking away bite to address the problem that the Lerk didn't really have its own flavor in combat, it was just a Skulk that could fly. Now aliens actually have a class with a real ranged weapon. The alien commander was added to unify the res models and overall team structure of the teams for better balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1755905:date=Feb 27 2010, 05:12 PM:name=Seker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Seker @ Feb 27 2010, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to note the flamethrower would have been in ns1 already.... but it wasn't possible to make it volumetric back at that time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well maybe not volumetric. But how do you explain the flamethrower in TFC? :D Either way, I'm glad there was no flame thrower in NS1. It wouldn't fit. No DI and such to flame away.
<!--quoteo(post=1755862:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:51 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 27 2010, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So OK, what if the Lerk doesn't "spaz out" and instead performs "bombing runs", as you suggest. Seriously, have you even played 3.x Lerk? I dare you, go perform bombing runs. See how many seconds you survive. A Lerk that flies straight is a dead Lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm a little confused here. It seems you're bemoaning the loss of bite but also contend that using bite in combat is basically a death sentence, against marines that can aim. I'm sure you've played lerk in competitive, or at least seen it first hand, where you drew this conclusion, which I can only agree with. Our lerks weren't much more than spore machines, following front line marines around to keep them bathed in gas. I mean you can't really do much more than that without risking an early death, and having the lerk alive and sporing is 10x more vital than getting any single kill. The simplest lerk counter after all is a 10res shotgun, 1/3rd the investment cost but only effective up close.
So what part of bite are you missing exactly? The part where you sit behind a res node for 5 minutes? Or the part where you own clueless pubnubs half of which don't even realize where you're coming from? I guarantee the latter will still be an important part of the NS competitive experience no matter what changes. If it's the former you're missing, well, um, maybe you should get a job in data entry or something. I mean, lerks basically were used as vent camping distance shooters.
jesus christ guys. When UWE aren't releasing any media you go impatient and start asking all the time how the work is going and when they finally reveal the classes you complain about <i>how</i> they reveal them?
They have better things to do than release cinematic movies. They're just revealing the classes for now. I'm sure they will release gameplay vids when it is appropiate but right now they don't need to concentrate on releasing pretty animated video clips. I would've been fine with just the pictures.
Comments
What I would love to see as t he secondary for the cloud is some sort of blackscreen.
Maybe instead of a cloud, you can shoot a blackscreen-spit on a marine. Marines near the hit will also get blinded by the splash.
It should work on a few seconds tho.
roost woot!
how about a make the alt-attack to spore a defensive cloud which prevents (or consumes?) the exlopsions of granades and extinguishes fire from flamethrowers (it's a supportive class after all right? it adds more depth on the marine side to try to hunt down gorges and lerks first)
And i like the look of the lerk too, buuut...
In the video after he lands on the box - idle-animation(?) - (0:27) - he has a really silly look. His eyes are pointed sideways (almost backwards) all the time. If the engine doesn't support eye movement then maybe you should place the pupils a little bit further up front by default.
BTW: Will the Spark engine feature facial animations or eye movement like Source, UE3 etc etc? Not that one needs it in a fast paced multiplayer game but it would be nice (for making cutscenes and cinematics for example).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The spikes fall with gravity<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess it means this won't be a hitscan weapon so you'll have to aim in front of a moving target to hit it, rigtht?
Players in one side of the fog wouldn't be able to see through the other side of the fog, which could create some interesting ambush scenarios.
Or additionally, make the ability a Spray-type of ability that can be held down. The Lerk would 'spray' mist in front of him.
will the upgrades work diffrently from NS1? will each class have diffrent upgrades that the other classes dont have?
will the upgrades work diffrently from NS1? will each class have diffrent upgrades that the other classes dont have?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It sounds that way, yeah. If I were to guess I'd say upgrades won't be tied to chambers anymore and will instead there will be a handful for each lifeform, maybe based on a commander tech tree of some kind.
or did the half-life engine just not allow you to ignore armor when damage is done?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spores should damages HP not armour imho :-)
Right now, Overgrowth is doing their informal PR thing: "Hey, we're a group of dudes making a video game." The "office" tour is John's dirty room. Strangely enough, people love it, and it works for them! Excellent! Why not?
UWE gives a much more professional appearance: "Hey, we're a small company making a video game." Personally, I think this is the best way to present a team, but at the same time it sets some ridiculous standards you've got to be aware of. At times, UWE feels like Valve in terms of professionalism, but at others, these class reveals specifically, they feel like a "decent" mod team again. If you can't maintain that professional image every where, it gives this "awkward" feel to things that sends mixed signals. (I really wish I could describe it better than that, but hopefully that gets the point across.)
I understand that UWE is working hard, (God only knows how many profanities have echod through their halls (Both old and new halls)) but it's really killing me to see some of these media updates do so little to represent that work. For example, I was excited to see them mixing up the class reveal footage, but I honestly think they may have made it worse with the Lerk. Allow me to explain:
The Skulk, Gorge, and Onos reveals were underwhelming because they failed to utilize the video footage more. A 360 spin of the animated model is great... for showing us what it looks like. Nothing else. You can hardly get a feel of the titanic Onos when it's the only thing on the screen, and it's hard to fear a Skulk's agility when it's running in place. Showing these aspects off are critical to "reveals" because it establishes a character to expect/fear in the game. One other thing is the presentation of the abilities for each class: "A few short paragraphs describing some potential abilities in theoretical situations." I think that's more than 9/10th's of MODDB... "A picture is worth a thousand words." Don't tell me the gorge will get a damage sink ability, show me. I want to see an unlucky gorge getting ambushed by a few marines, and then his damage sink saving the day. (Don't have the damage sink functioning yet? Don't show me the gorge, to be honest.)
Now the Lerk footage almost hit all the right bases, but it really lacked some cinematic composition. It starts off with the Lerk about to ambush some Marines in a hallway. That sets the mood, gives us a feel for where the Lerk lurks, and builds some anticipation. (All before we even really see the Lerk!) But then it gets odd quick. Instead of the Lerk lurking in his typical manner, he drops down into the clear open, and chills for a bit. (And screams too, IIRC.) Then he hovers for a bit, and attacks the Marines. This is where the video made me facepalm. The Lerk is a fragile support class who attacks from the shadows at a distance. Why in the name of Max's head razor would it fly at two marines? On top of that, look at the ###### storm those few seconds of video footage caused in the Lerk thread. It's purely about the first person aiming and flight, which apparently was entirely fabricated in the cinematic, so... It doesn't really mean squat for the REAL in-game Lerk we should be expecting. So in reality, all we got again is "what it looks like" with a little atmosphere thrown in, and a few irrelevant seconds of footage that distracted almost EVERYONE. (Don't do that! lol)
I love UWE, and I love Natural Selection. It is because I love them that I've made this post, so please don't take it the wrong way. I'm just trying to help out. :)
For the Spore alt-fire, why not have it as more of an escape mechanism than an attack? Some of the ideas I read were that it would be like a smoke bomb with damage, but that requires you to be right beside the enemy - exactly the opposite thing you want as a Lerk.
So maybe something like a 'Smoke Trail'? So if the enemy does get to close, you activate the trail and fly off. Maybe it would do minimal damage aswell to anyone who tries to follow the Lerk through it, but more likely just create a way for the Lerk to escape or even help teammates escape aswell - the trail only lasting a few seconds.
These reveals are really just meant to show us the new visual design and talk about their abilities, not a full video reveal of everything they can do in-game. Given how little the abilities have been finalized, we probably wouldn't have seen any of the species yet if you had your way. They made the Lerk video how they did to address your first complaint. But the priority is still in looking at his model, which is why he spends so long hanging out in plain sight. And what makes you think the first person gameplay footage was fabricated? Why would they waste their time doing that?
does that mean a single lerk can actually take down whole shotgun rush by using alterantive spike fire?
Let's just clear up one misunderstanding first: The problem isn't that they changed bite to spikes, the problem is the way spikes work. A while back there were a few hints dropped that the spikes were going to work more like a shotgun, instead of the rapid fire 1.0x spikes. That would've been great. You get the excellent 3.0x Lerk gameplay, but with a twist that makes it play a little bit different and differentiates it from the other Alien classes. Instead, we got rapid fire. Now, to the meat:
Did you even read the update?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It also doesn't seem very Lerk-like to have him fly up to a structure and then sit on the ground and bite it. He should be hiding in the rafters and in vents and attacking from range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How in the hell does that sound like "similar to before"?
Even disregarding that statement, the nature of "rapid fire spikes" precludes any gameplay reminiscent of 3.x Lerking. Rapid fire means it shoots fast, so you can't make it do a lot of damage or it's going to be overpowered when sitting in a vent shooting. If each shot doesn't do a lot of damage, it's impossible to perform the kind of acrobatics needed for close combat Lerking -- it simply isn't possible to aim that well while doing it.
So OK, what if the Lerk doesn't "spaz out" and instead performs "bombing runs", as you suggest. Seriously, have you even played 3.x Lerk? I dare you, go perform bombing runs. See how many seconds you survive. A Lerk that flies straight is a dead Lerk. With rapid fire spikes, in order to deal enough damage to have a chance of killing the Marine, you have to fly straight or you won't be able to keep your aim steady on the marine. You could beef up spike damage or increase Lerk HP to counteract this, but that will make it overpowered when sitting in a vent.
I have the same problem with "perching". It's something the newbies will try out and quickly discard once they realize that being out in the open while not moving = dead Lerk. It's just another gimmick. This seems like a general problem with the NS2 development. They're putting out all these gimmicks (more than one commander, HA lockdown mode, perching, flamethrower) that do nothing to improve the gameplay, and may even make it less enjoyable.
The darts are grown in that hunch that is on his back, and then rapidly move through the tubes that run from the hunch to the sides of his face.
<!--quoteo(post=1755759:date=Feb 27 2010, 09:33 AM:name=kyliegirl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kyliegirl @ Feb 27 2010, 09:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks good but I cant help but think the lerks head looks too much like an oviraptors head<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting. The Lerk does have a bit of a prehistoric feel, but I wasn't looking at those when designing the Lerk. I actually was referencing Andean Condors, which have a similar large bulge above their beaks.
--Cory
Spore mines, Align's idea, spore spray (think flamethrower-ish), a spore cloud that burns through armor rather than health (in case of a medpack spam or whatever), or a thick, nontoxic spore cloud that blocks vision (basically a smoke grendade).
Hell, you could even make Umbra the alt fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree with 2 of these ideas...I think armor dmg wouldnt be nice because of the fact that marines need something, tho a black nontoxic cloud that disorients by making it extremely hard to see whether it be for the lerk to get away or to just confuse the marines is another amazing idea. Could be secreted instead of spit which allow the lerk to have a get away option at the cost of half energy and a cool down time maybe. Actually sounds more like a gorge ability...because they are slow..hmm.
How about a modified version of umbra...that not only slows bullets...but marines aswell...like a think mucus cloud? Hmm even better...what about a mucus cloud that coats marines and slows not only their shooting rate, but themselves aswell...instead of a gas cloud, like old umbra, the slows down the bullets/marines...so the marines would have to get it on them to have the effects. Now that would be an NS2 feature.
Did you even read the update?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean you were actually expecting the Lerk to shoot out spreads of 8 spikes at once in a shotgun pattern or something? I think what they meant is that it would be a shorter range, less precise weapon with higher damage, like a shotgun. Which is exactly what they did.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How in the hell does that sound like "similar to before"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who cares how they kill structures? They're right, biting RTs wasn't a very Lerk-like activity at all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even disregarding that statement, the nature of "rapid fire spikes" precludes any gameplay reminiscent of 3.x Lerking. Rapid fire means it shoots fast, so you can't make it do a lot of damage or it's going to be overpowered when sitting in a vent shooting. If each shot doesn't do a lot of damage, it's impossible to perform the kind of acrobatics needed for close combat Lerking -- it simply isn't possible to aim that well while doing it.
So OK, what if the Lerk doesn't "spaz out" and instead performs "bombing runs", as you suggest. Seriously, have you even played 3.x Lerk? I dare you, go perform bombing runs. See how many seconds you survive. A Lerk that flies straight is a dead Lerk. With rapid fire spikes, in order to deal enough damage to have a chance of killing the Marine, you have to fly straight or you won't be able to keep your aim steady on the marine. You could beef up spike damage or increase Lerk HP to counteract this, but that will make it overpowered when sitting in a vent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop and think about it for a second. You can't just sit in a vent because the range is much shorter than before, as they said. And if that isn't enough they can balance it with a high energy drain or something. The old spikes were a weak harassment weapon, these ones are not. If they do the same burst damage as the bites or more than you can kill a marine in a single dive and fly out before they can retaliate.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have the same problem with "perching". It's something the newbies will try out and quickly discard once they realize that being out in the open while not moving = dead Lerk. It's just another gimmick. This seems like a general problem with the NS2 development. They're putting out all these gimmicks (more than one commander, HA lockdown mode, perching, flamethrower) that do nothing to improve the gameplay, and may even make it less enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It allows them to hide in ambush above a doorway like a Skulk. Previously they could only sit in a vent or on a perch. You might just want to play NS 4.0 but the rest of us are looking forward to a new game.
If you can't even comprehend the gameplay description of the lerk by UWE, you shouldn't get into an arguement (e.g.: "He should be hiding in the rafters and in vents and attacking from range.").
A shotgun is by definition a slow ROF high damage weapon. It can have a spread, but not necessarily. That depends on what ammo you put in it. Shotguns can fire slugs, which make them almost like a rifle with a shorter effective range. My expectations were just that, a slow ROF high powered short range weapon. What we got is a mid range fast ROF weapon, which due to balancing CAN NOT be high power.
<!--quoteo(post=1755875:date=Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who cares how they kill structures? They're right, biting RTs wasn't a very Lerk-like activity at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's obvious that statement wasn't intended just with regards to RT killing. As I described in the rest of my post, the gameplay mechanics behind RAPID FIRE spikes and the weak but agile Lerk precludes any 3.2 gameplay with the current NS2 Lerk. Shooting spikes at an RT isn't very "Lerk like" either, for that matter.
<!--quoteo(post=1755875:date=Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stop and think about it for a second. You can't just sit in a vent because the range is much shorter than before, as they said. And if that isn't enough they can balance it with a high energy drain or something. The old spikes were a weak harassment weapon, these ones are not. If they do the same burst damage as the bites or more than you can kill a marine in a single dive and fly out before they can retaliate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seem to be trying every which way to find ways to rationalize their Lerk concept, interpreting the facts to fit your hypothesis instead of the opposite. You certainly have a strange way of interpreting "medium range". When they've already established that a key part of Lerk gameplay will be hiding and shooting from a distance (even if you interpret this as only being in relation to structures), it precludes your interpretation of "medium range" to mean what is really short range.
You also have a strange concept of NS map size in relation of placement of vents. Vents have to be placed close to key locations, for gameplay reasons. Unless the spike range is so short that they can only be used in what's effectively close combat, Lerks can in fact "just sit in a vent". If you understood the argument in my first post (which was even based on empirical data) you would also know that this is the only way a high ROF spike Lerk can be effectively played in a balanced game. Your interpretation of "rapid fire" is even wilder, with you jumping from rapid fire to burst fire, which is something else entirely.
Bear in mind, I wouldn't even be posting this if the actual Lerk was more like your interpretation. Burst fire (2-4 spikes released with one mouse click) spikes with a combined damage comparable to the 3.2 Lerk bite would be great. That would in fact be exactly what me, and many others, have been hoping for. This would of course also have to be balanced by making it a SHORT RANGE weapon. One that would not have any noticeable effect when fired from more than 2 in game meters. The secondary fire sniper spikes would serve as a great extra tool for the Lerk in that case.
<!--quoteo(post=1755875:date=Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It allows them to hide in ambush above a doorway like a Skulk. Previously they could only sit in a vent or on a perch. You might just want to play NS 4.0 but the rest of us are looking forward to a new game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know about you, but I check corners when I go through doorways. A Lerk "hiding in ambush above a doorway" is a suicide candidate.
I don't want NS2 to be identical to NS 3.2. I want a game that takes the good from 3.2, fixes the bad and adds some new flavour. I think the new Fade blink concept is a great idea, for instance. Unlike Lerk rapid fire spikes, it adds to the gameplay and appears to have no downsides. If I wanted to play an entirely different game, I'd go play... a different game.
Two things I was hoping for is that the Lerk has it close-combat ability. Cause I think it just impossible to fight Jet-packers in the vent (assuming they can fly in the vent in NS2) or running into a marine in a corner. Another one is the lerk's flight can be maneuver to left or right, like a jet-plane. Flipping itself to left or right side in mid air is pretty cool, also help for dodging bullets.
To fanatic's argument the reason they are/might be adding the gimmicks : I believed that the UWE team said since from NS1; the marines are more developed in technology to fight the aliens, and the aliens are also evolving to fight the marines. I also read that they are fighting against the infestation thing, i'm not very sure. The onos's head is now more shield like that is why they are adding HA lockdown mode to fight that, in my believe. They could be adding the damage and accuracy into HA lockdown mode. For the flamethrower, it is planned to fight the dynamic infestation. For the multi-commander thing am not very sure, since they said they want the map to be smaller, and the "perching" i think it is just something that might come handy sometimes later on. I can't be specific yet, because I have no idea how big the map will be, but as far as i see the map are pretty low ceilinged. I just want to say that they added gimmicks, because both team are now more developed in their own ways.
well, I believe that after the alpha test there will be load of changes.
P.s. I am getting this feeling that UWE are going to make spikes the closer you get the more damage it does. That is why they made the lerk reveal flying straight into the marines.
Yes, I'm aware. The point was, as I said, these features don't actually add anything to the gameplay, they may even detract from it. What makes NS combat fun, as opposed to all the other games out there, is the very dynamic interplay of alien close combat attacks and agility vs. the marines ranged attacks and slower (but still agile) movement. Both aliens and marines can use many techniques to get the upper hand in the fight, from the player movement skills (bunnyhopping, circle strafing, crouch and jump dodging, using the environment) and the specific alien movement abilities to player aim. Even in NS1, HA vs. Onos gameplay breaks this careful balance and turns combat into a static and boring slugout. The proposed NS2 lockdown mode will only serve to further break it, as the HAs and Onos lose even the slight movement capabilities they had before.
If the flamethrower is indeed intended to combat the dynamic infestation, this is another tenuous concept. I certainly don't want to stand around shooting flames at a wall. Of course there is a strategic element to it, so they might be able to turn this into a viable gameplay mechanism. I don't know though, the general feeling I get is that they're reducing player vs. player interplay (for instance they seem to be beefing up turrets), which is a disaster for any multiplayer game. I play multiplayer games for the challenge and social interplay of human opponents and teammates, not for static player vs. game elements.
<!--quoteo(post=1755898:date=Feb 27 2010, 10:26 PM:name=valkiuz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valkiuz @ Feb 27 2010, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755898"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well, I believe that after the alpha test there will be load of changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh certainly, this goes without saying. But there are certain things one can "know" won't work even before trying it. (bacon flavoured ice cream comes to mind)
<!--quoteo(post=1755898:date=Feb 27 2010, 10:26 PM:name=valkiuz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valkiuz @ Feb 27 2010, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755898"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->P.s. I am getting this feeling that UWE are going to make spikes the closer you get the more damage it does. That is why they made the lerk reveal flying straight into the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be one way of fixing it, but it doesn't seem like they are going that way. If this was the case, why wouldn't the Lerk just fly up to the structure and spike it at 0 range, as opposed to their proposed "Lerk like" behaviour? I seem to remember they considered adding damage falloff to the NS1 shotgun, but decided against it. I can't remember if it was because of gameplay or coding issues though.
Why not? High ROF simply means each spike will do less damage than a shotgun blast, not that it does less damage over time. If high damage shotgun spikes can be balanced then high damage rapid fire spikes can be balanced too. This isn't complicated - whatever range you're imagining for the spikes that is too long for it to be high damage, just imagine it even shorter and bam problem solved.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's obvious that statement wasn't intended just with regards to RT killing. As I described in the rest of my post, the gameplay mechanics behind RAPID FIRE spikes and the weak but agile Lerk precludes any 3.2 gameplay with the current NS2 Lerk. Shooting spikes at an RT isn't very "Lerk like" either, for that matter.
You seem to be trying every which way to find ways to rationalize their Lerk concept, interpreting the facts to fit your hypothesis instead of the opposite. You certainly have a strange way of interpreting "medium range". When they've already established that a key part of Lerk gameplay will be hiding and shooting from a distance (even if you interpret this as only being in relation to structures), it precludes your interpretation of "medium range" to mean what is really short range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm interpreting the actual words they have used to talk about this, both in the update and in the past. Take this for example:
<a href="http://twitter.com/NS2/status/3269530530" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/NS2/status/3269530530</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Discussions about lerk bite vs. spikes and his view model. I think he's going to end up with <b>short-range spikes</b> and no bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The intro video clearly shows the Lerk using spikes as a close range killing weapon. The post says they have a spread(which can be seen in the video) and fall with gravity. When I think medium range I think maybe the range of a bile bomb - marine guns are all long range except the shotgun. The front page describes the old spikes as "super long range" and the current ones as "medium range," you do the math. You're the one basing his entire argument on a comment about biting RTs. For that matter, the 3.0 Lerk was also about hiding in rafters and vents and attacking from range half the time, it didn't mean he couldn't fight marines directly.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You also have a strange concept of NS map size in relation of placement of vents. Vents have to be placed close to key locations, for gameplay reasons. Unless the spike range is so short that they can only be used in what's effectively close combat, Lerks can in fact "just sit in a vent". If you understood the argument in my first post (which was even based on empirical data) you would also know that this is the only way a high ROF spike Lerk can be effectively played in a balanced game. Your interpretation of "rapid fire" is even wilder, with you jumping from rapid fire to burst fire, which is something else entirely.
Bear in mind, I wouldn't even be posting this if the actual Lerk was more like your interpretation. Burst fire (2-4 spikes released with one mouse click) spikes with a combined damage comparable to the 3.2 Lerk bite would be great. That would in fact be exactly what me, and many others, have been hoping for. This would of course also have to be balanced by making it a SHORT RANGE weapon. One that would not have any noticeable effect when fired from more than 2 in game meters. The secondary fire sniper spikes would serve as a great extra tool for the Lerk in that case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm telling you that they probably will be about that short range, i.e. not much further than the Lerk's starting point in the video. Why else would they have an alt fire sniper mode specifically to be able to shoot from vents and shadowy corners? I think you missed basically everything they've said on the matter simply to focus on that one sentence that was a little poorly phrased.
And I said burst damage(i.e. a high amount of damage in a short time), not burst fire. Rapid fire spikes could be called a burst damage weapon if they drain your energy quickly but do very high damage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about you, but I check corners when I go through doorways. A Lerk "hiding in ambush above a doorway" is a suicide candidate.
I don't want NS2 to be identical to NS 3.2. I want a game that takes the good from 3.2, fixes the bad and adds some new flavour. I think the new Fade blink concept is a great idea, for instance. Unlike Lerk rapid fire spikes, it adds to the gameplay and appears to have no downsides. If I wanted to play an entirely different game, I'd go play... a different game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It allows them to hide in ambush wherever they like. In NS Lerks can't really ambush at all, because all the places they can sit are too far away and vents are checked even more often than ceilings. Not that I think Lerks will be big on ambushing anyway, it will probably primarily be used for sniping from tall ceilings.
And they've said many times that they're following the classic sequel philosophy: 1/3 the same, 1/3 improved, 1/3 new. Calling something like the flamethrower - probably the most requested addition in NS - a useless gimmick is insane. I remember a bunch of people have asked for the ability to attach the Lerk to walls/ceilings before. They're taking away bite to address the problem that the Lerk didn't really have its own flavor in combat, it was just a Skulk that could fly. Now aliens actually have a class with a real ranged weapon. The alien commander was added to unify the res models and overall team structure of the teams for better balance.
Well maybe not volumetric. But how do you explain the flamethrower in TFC? :D Either way, I'm glad there was no flame thrower in NS1. It wouldn't fit. No DI and such to flame away.
I'm a little confused here. It seems you're bemoaning the loss of bite but also contend that using bite in combat is basically a death sentence, against marines that can aim. I'm sure you've played lerk in competitive, or at least seen it first hand, where you drew this conclusion, which I can only agree with. Our lerks weren't much more than spore machines, following front line marines around to keep them bathed in gas. I mean you can't really do much more than that without risking an early death, and having the lerk alive and sporing is 10x more vital than getting any single kill. The simplest lerk counter after all is a 10res shotgun, 1/3rd the investment cost but only effective up close.
So what part of bite are you missing exactly? The part where you sit behind a res node for 5 minutes? Or the part where you own clueless pubnubs half of which don't even realize where you're coming from? I guarantee the latter will still be an important part of the NS competitive experience no matter what changes. If it's the former you're missing, well, um, maybe you should get a job in data entry or something. I mean, lerks basically were used as vent camping distance shooters.
They have better things to do than release cinematic movies. They're just revealing the classes for now. I'm sure they will release gameplay vids when it is appropiate but right now they don't need to concentrate on releasing pretty animated video clips. I would've been fine with just the pictures.