I don't think letting players walk/nudge through each other will work out well for NS2. As described above, the whole SM team could back into a corner and all hide in one spot. Just for the style that NS seems to be, there shouldn't be any pass through, it would lead to many exploits kind of like it does in L4D where all the survivors can camp in a closet together.
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
I think being able to nudge people to the side is a good idea. It would eliminate team blocking, which can be extremely irritating. However, this should be implemented for only your own team members and not members of the opposing team. So you can still block a fade or onos from running. Clipping through other players is ridiculous and crowding into one tiny corner like L4D is just silly so player models should still collide, except that teammates can nudge each other a bit.
I say nudge instead of push because should this be implemented, I think you can only nudge people. Meaning moving your teammates really slowly. and if the players wants to stay put, he just needs to push back and everyone will stay still. So there is still an element of being blocked, but at least you can "squeeze" if you push long enough. I think the most important thing is to move AFK people or people who are just blur.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, I'm surprised at the negativity. Are people debating for the sake of debating it or do they actually feel it'll detract from the game? I think I can address pretty much every argument against it. (Remember, my main concern is getting rid of the cement block players, and the TF2 style was the one I've been most impressed with so far.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it's a good feature of TF2, but not a good fit for NS2. <!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It forces the marines to be spatially aware of their teammates.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Turn on friendly fire. Knowing that you're blocking someone behind you at all times just ain't gonna happen. New players have a lot to take in all at once, the exact location and intentions of their teammates is something that only takes time. You STILL need to be aware of your teammates if you want to be the most effective, but at least you aren't going to be in the way while you learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I <3 Friendly FIre servers, but most people don't. I understand you don't want to learn to be aware of your team-mates, but I find being aware of your team-mates is a huge part of teamwork. Being able to cover without getting in their way may seem like a chore, but it's really important and makes you a better player TBH. To reiterate, walk-through for TF2 is fine and fits the game, but NS2 is different. <!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's not realistic!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't particularly care if it's realistic or not. I think it does happen to be more realistic, but it's irrelevant to me. <!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's a tactic!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> If you're relying on the other team to help you kill one of their teammates, you need to really reevaluate your tactics. Seriously though, how often do catch a blocked fade and say "yup, that went exactly as planned!" It's like playing the lottery. You hope you'll win, but you shouldn't make a career of it. I'm still entirely for the idea of blocking members of the <i>other</i> team, or being able to block shots. In fact, I believe that friendly fire can do more good for making players have a better sense of spatial awareness when it comes to teammates than anything else. If you're own teammates block the fade, THAT was probably a tactic that involved a bit of planning and coordination, aka teamwork!
5) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->What about boosting a marine/gorge up on to a ledge!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Hi! I'd like you to meet the people fighting for realism! They're lovely people, I'm sure you'll get along great!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough. I'm glad you see the value of blocking the opposing team and teammates blocking shots. Paragraph 4.) is attacking a strawman though which you avoid the actual issue in 5.) with a joke. Obviously inadvertent blocking isn't a tactic. Boosting gorges/fellow marines is though. Without it NS would feel like it's missing something. Similar to playing Goldeneye Source and not being able to jump. <!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->6 Onos all sitting inside one another...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Well, yeah. That's a great point. I guess the model that fits well with human (or human shaped) characters doesn't really apply to everything. Oh well time to scrap the whole idea...
OR, we could figure out a solution. How about this: Skulks/small creatures can pass through onos legs. Onos themselves, while not 100% solid to teammates have a more aggressive "push back". (You know the effect when two tf2 players try to stand on a teleport and they're pushed apart?) Think of it this way, you got two of these creatures, they walk up to each other and try to stand in the same spot, the push back doesn't let them. However, one onos is running down a hallway (probably nearly dead) and lo and behold, another onos is coming head on to get in on the action. Problem is the new onos is going up the middle of the hallway. Right now: dead stop, maybe with a death animation. Push back effect results in the problem onos being slightly shoved to the side as the other one "squeezes" past. Might be slowed down, but at least then the space cows are moving more like cattle and taking up less space.
This is kind of going off into the momentum idea, but only sort of.
8) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It'll be abused!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Like the current system isn't ever abused?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 6.) and 8.) are pretty much the same thing. Your solution doesn't really address the abusability of it. The current system can be "griefed" but it can't really be abused. You can block a team-mate, but you can't form a ball of stacked marines/heavies/onos/gorgey dewm. For any slow moving class shiva defense would become a standard. You could argue this takes skill and teamwork to do, but I don't think it take more skill or teamwork than an coordinated attack/defence without team-mate-walk-through enabled. I think onos/fade being able to walk over smaller classes is a good idea, but it is separate from what you're talking about. I think that alone would mostly solve the problem of inadvertent and greifing team-mate blocking without having a TF2 style system. <!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->9) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's for newbs!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Well, yeah. There is other aspects of teamwork I'd like to see focused on. Having some l33t player berate someone because he got in the way... oh yeah, that'll help grow the player base. I'd rather have lots of servers and players to play with than a select few. Let's remove unnecessary frustration. Just because we've sucked it up and lived with it all this time doesn't make it the better way to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And just because it works for TF2 doesn't make it the better way to play either. The TF2 system is easier for newbs in some ways, but it also obscures some important parts of combat. Careful when you taking about "removing player frustration" because it's a slippery slope. A poor player angry at a newb will berate the newb for whatever. Team-mate blocking is not the cause of this behaviour. <!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->I have a better idea involving momentum/physics/teleportation/grabbingandpushing/...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> If someone has a better idea or implementation, I'm all for it. Keep it simple while not introducing more problems or potential for griefing though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you should think more about the responses here and not just dismiss them as "backwards" thinking. I think the momentum solution is quite good, as is the onos/fade/heavy having the ability to move over(or push away) much smaller classes. <!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, I was really hoping that <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->Max or Flayra<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> could chime in here, even hint at what they're doing. Smooth movement/control is a complete win. It's why mappers put clip brushes into maps so that the fancy decorations on the walls don't cause players to snag. (And people sure do complain when that happens!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We'll see soon enough. The devs do answer questions and comment on threads from time to time. We may even see a twitter about this particular topic, but there's no guarantee. It's quite likely you won't know the answer until the alpha though because they're busy working on the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1711061:date=Jun 8 2009, 08:06 AM:name=project_demon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (project_demon @ Jun 8 2009, 08:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711061"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are mistaken, marines have the advantage with their projectiles (bullets, explosions, etc) this will bring a speeding skulk/fade to a dead stop if it doesnt push it backwards. projectiles have a huge momentum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hitscan weapons does not use any projectiles. I can't belive I'm actually pointing this out but even if they did use projectiles it would not matter since NS is a game and not reality.
Why not just include a couple different types of blocking and let it be decided on a server by server basis kinda like friendly fire. This would make everyone happy and stuff
To clarify, why not have the tf2 style blocking and then have a server side variable that would turn on blocking.
First off to Kataki, having different types of blocking would break the game up into groups with less interaction between them, and the devs still need to have a default rule. People learn how to best handle what the game gives them to work with, and something as fundamental as movement is not what you want to worry about depending on where you are playing. It better to be consistent over the servers.
After all could you immage what would happen when someone who newish to the game learned on a server with marines like in l4d, moved to one with marines like NS? There would be rapid chaos, and you don't want that. This is not a simple, give it it own name type of a question.
<!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 12:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->What about boosting a marine/gorge up on to a ledge!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Hi! I'd like you to meet the people fighting for realism! They're lovely people, I'm sure you'll get along great!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because it impossible in real life to give a friend a boost up a ledge. I must be living in some sort of twilight zone yesterday, I could have sworn I saw two of my friends do just that to get a ball off a roof.
The real issues I see with team blocking, is not the intention kind, but the one where someone get dropped from the game. I am sure you have all experienced the pain of running as an onos, only to hit a skulk that lagged out or crashed, and stop like you just hit a solid wall of metal, not a fleshly creature that is what 1/20 of your mass?
I like the class based momentum, so base marines might be a little bumped around by things less then a fade, unless it moving very fast, like a skulk shot from a cannon, as they are a middle weight. They can move each other around a little, but not much, so that you can avoid blockers and crashed marines, without having the marines able to push each other across the hall without some time. You should still be able to stack, as it lets you boost people.
Now things get interesting when you add the fade, onos, heavy, and jetpack into the mix.
You want the jetpack to basicly be a light class, after all it flies, so it should be affected a lot more. Heavy could go the opposite way, and say the a heavy ignores all momentum effects. Now your heavy has a use against the onos, block him in.
Part of being aliens is hit and run tactics, so having a fade knock around marines might not be too bad. And an onos charging down the hall, tell me you don't expect that marine he just ran into to act like a car him, and sending the marine to the other side off the room.
Then again, I will most likely be just fine however NS2 ends up doing it. After the alpha and beta, it would have to be really bad testing if it turned out it not work out.
<!--quoteo(post=1710603:date=Jun 6 2009, 02:20 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jun 6 2009, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1710603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ugh. TF2 blocking is the worst of both worlds, IMO. It eliminates the tactical uses of blocking as mentioned above, and still gives griefers the ability to push you out of safe spots or into dangerous ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Take off your fricken nostalgia goggles and look at where team clipping is heading. All good games out allow a version of TF2/L4D/CoD4/etc clipping. I'm not saying total clipping with no slow down and such. Yes I can dissect each "rebuttal" to that long answer that was posted earlier, but its easier to just say that the current clipping system is horrendous. I've already presented my argument for some sort of clipping style akin to TF2, and I believe that the long post reinforced it.
You've never played NS with TF2 style team pushing, so how can you say it can be worse? In fact we can only assume it will be better since EVERY GAME IS DOING IT. Stop thinking of all the good times you've had with block models and think of the flaws. You will come to realize that there are a lot more cons then pros when it comes to that style (which is why new games dont use it).
The people defending NS1 block model style are like the people that claim NES games are superior to every next gen console out right now. The games in the past had major flaws that hindered gameplay and because you "grew up" with that style, you think its best. If NS2 seriously has the same movement problems as NS1, I will regret my SE purchase. Enjoy getting blocked by a gorge when you're a fade.
EDIT: actually, I will counter what was said in the first rebuttal.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's still very different. Marine movement was absolutely marvellous in NS, now you could just walk through your teammates to share the damage? The walk through works better on TF2, because it's not melee based, so you'll end up hitting targets a lot anyway and the spaces are less cramped.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're entitled to your opinion and here's mine: Marine movement was horrible. It pains me to even play sometimes because it's so dated (Not only graphically but the physics also). I don't know where you get the idea of sharing damage because you are shoving your teammate aside, especially since you bring up TF2 right after that. You can NEVER share damage from melee hits in TF2. Even thought TF2 isn't melee based, bullets don't travel through your teammates (except for sniper bullets/arrows with the sniper/spy update). This creates "tactical movement" in that sense also, yet you can still squeeze through players on your team.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nothing is realistic on that level of physical interaction, just the gameplay matters IMHO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he ment that in real life you are going to shove your way past people in order to get to your destination. Sure you can't simulate tucking down and running headfirst through your team in order to get that last HMG on the ground, but you can sure as hell mimic the movement with TF2 style pushing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Limiting entrances for attack is a tactic if you ask me. Fighting in cramped spaces where marines can't use their dodges is a good one too. Otherwise it isn't much of a tactic, but more of a situational contributor. Nevertheless, the situational contributors made NS the dynamic gameplay it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see the problem with this. My initial argument stated that teammates can get passed each other (except structures), but could not clip at all through enemy players and structures.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just focus on the questions separately. This isn't some one dimensional YES/NO question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is focusing on the question. The same people that fight for realism and tactical gameplay are the same people that still want boosting via jumping on a teammates head. It's already been stated that it would be cool to be able to boost people but have it so both people can't use their weapons or something.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The partitial slowdown sounds very reasonable to me. UWE even has a good access to the physics now, so it can be tweaked to the right level of 'punishment'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That "slowdown" is exactly what people have been arguing for but it seems like no one understands what TF2 style pushback is. Have two heavy's run toward each other (same team) and when they hit, they will do this push back thing that pushes them both to a side. It slows them down a bit and people still get by just fine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because it's quite unforgiving and nasty right now doesn't mean it should completely go. The partitial slowdown is a good example: It keeps the feature, but makes the punishment reasonable. That way people have still the possibility to improve their game sense, but blocking doesn't become an unnecessarily difficult feature for newbies. Reaching reasonable compromises is the thing I'm looking for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason NS1 has a low "new" player base is because it is outdated and has large problems with many "small" features. One of them being movement. Imagine being used to playing games where TF2 style pushback was the norm (It's been like that since Halo, and probably earlier, this came out in 2001. NS came out in 2002 and was using an outdated HL engine). Then you purchase NS2 and all of sudden, you time travel back to the year 2000 where everything is clunky. I'm a HUGE FPS fanatic, and HL is one of the worst when it comes to player clipping. I haven't player on the engine for about 3 years (stopped playing NS for awhile) and just got back into it a few weeks ago with the announcement of NS2. It is painful to play when I'm blinking and all of a sudden a skulk turns the corner and we both head to a dead stop. I try and blink above him and for some reason he tries to jump over me. In the end, we both die.
I like player clipping to be honest. The ONLY thing that is annoying is when you are moving very fast as a fade and a skulk manages to block you and completely slow you down.
Marine player clipping is an excellent thing to take advantage of as a skulk, not only because you can "feel" it when you bump into a marine, but also because marines are blocked by each other and it allows you to kill them more easily.
I think player clipping is an important part of the NS strategy, which encourages teamwork on the marine side.
- Sharing Damage Marines allways travel in Groups. Skulks are often alone and far spread. A lone Skulk ambushes a Group of Marines. Starts biting a Marine...whoops, slips through his Friends Starts biting another Marine...whoops, slips through his Friends Starts biting the third Marine...whoops, died. Commander hands out Medikits and the Weldbot behind the Marines does his work. Rinse, repeat, Tech-up until Aliens ragequit.
- giving someone a Boost seems more logical and realistic to me than Cornershivas
- "growing up with" I indeed grew up with the old Style, but I like TF2 until there is a Waitingline at teleporting.
To be honest, there is no real difference between the Momentum and TF2 Ideas, but the Momentum Idea seems by far more realistic than running right through your Team's Buildings and static defenses.
- "everyone's doing it" Not a valid point until you prove me that you jump of the Empire State building because "everyone's doin' it". And even then...
Oh well, I may have missed some of the TF2's finesse. I guess I should go through the wall of texts with a bit more thought as I understood from the topic poster that both l4d and tf2 involve a similar model that allows practically a run through. Kinda silly actually as I've played TF2 for a few dozen hours and never even considered that there was some kind of significant clipping slowdown. I guess I dodge most of the players by nature then.
I'll probably try out the exact mechanic and get back to the rest of the arguments. I might be totally wrong on this one indeed as I thought I had better grasp of the TF2 physics.
Nevertheless, I'll address a few general points:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact we can only assume it will be better since EVERY GAME IS DOING IT. Stop thinking of all the good times you've had with block models and think of the flaws. You will come to realize that there are a lot more cons then pros when it comes to that style (which is why new games dont use it).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most of the new games are very much of this new casual wave. They are fine on what they do, giving a good sense of teamwork with little commitment to the actual game. However, as long as they're stating that NS2 is aimed equally for competetive play, I'll keep demanding some less forgiving approaches.
CoD4 is less casual teamwork oriented I guess, but it doesn't attempt to deal with cramped indoor spaces as it's main play field anyway. I think using the low profile collisions works just fine on many games, but NS focuses on that almost claustrophobic indoor melee vs ranged combat. At that point _too_ slippery collisions are a little like removing recoil from WW2 shooters.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He is focusing on the question. The same people that fight for realism and tactical gameplay are the same people that still want boosting via jumping on a teammates head. It's already been stated that it would be cool to be able to boost people but have it so both people can't use their weapons or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If we are talking about boosting without any specific quote, it isn't a good answer to resort to realism supporters like that. Probably the argument was just a little misdirected (or misunderstood).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason NS1 has a low "new" player base is because it is outdated and has large problems with many "small" features. One of them being movement. Imagine being used to playing games where TF2 style pushback was the norm (It's been like that since Halo, and probably earlier, this came out in 2001. NS came out in 2002 and was using an outdated HL engine).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh well. I guess I'm so used to the old HL movement that I feel extremely comfortable with it. For me it feels very natural with the clearly drawn collisions and very exact feel.
The low new player base is much more due to the fact that HL was just old, not any specific feature though. People just like to move on to the new games for a change. The forums are here to discuss whether the certain elements should stay. For example this is the first thread I've seen saying that HL1 had bad player collisions.
Blocking is a pivotal part of ns, be it pub or competitive, khaara or marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That not completely true.
Blocking the Other team is. Blocking your own team is not.
The first requires skill and helps your team. The second often is found in lack of skill, or in people who seam to live only to make games go bad for other people.
What I would like to see in an ideal setting, is the first remains where it is, where the second is taken to the point where those who are traitors to there own team, can't do anything, well enough that you need to have some skill other then hold down w to walk around.
Personally, I think this has already been talked about by the devs, and we will see in the alpha, so I don't see much reason to continue to argue this until that time. Then we can all tell them how good a job they did, or yell at them because they did it horrible wrong.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited June 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1711291:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM:name=Burger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burger @ Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Take off your fricken nostalgia goggles and look at where team clipping is heading. All good games out allow a version of TF2/L4D/CoD4/etc clipping. I'm not saying total clipping with no slow down and such. Yes I can dissect each "rebuttal" to that long answer that was posted earlier, but its easier to just say that the current clipping system is horrendous. I've already presented my argument for some sort of clipping style akin to TF2, and I believe that the long post reinforced it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you're reducing our arguments to "nostalgia" you're missing the point. And most of the people here are in favor of momentum or another system. The TF2 system is a bad fit for NS and we're explaining why. I think it's kind of funny you're accusing us of closeminded nostalgia when the TF2 system is the only system you'll consider. <!--quoteo(post=1711291:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM:name=Burger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burger @ Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><logical fallacies> <misunderstanding the argument><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1711291:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM:name=Burger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burger @ Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That "slowdown" is exactly what people have been arguing for but it seems like no one understands what TF2 style pushback is. Have two heavy's run toward each other (same team) and when they hit, they will do this push back thing that pushes them both to a side. It slows them down a bit and people still get by just fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How you're describing is not actually how it works. You'll clip most of the way through, and if the other player is moving backwards, you'll pretty much walk through them with no resistance. Play on a melee only server/map. Heck just watch a good heavy medic combo, you'll see them walking through each other all the time. Walkthrough is fine for TF2 because most of the weapons have a blast radius and the maps are more open. We're saying it's not a good fit for NS because NS has a completely different play style. The fact that it's an FPS is one of the few things it has in common with TF2. <!--quoteo(post=1711291:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM:name=Burger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burger @ Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><claim the death of NS is due to the clipping style><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1711352:date=Jun 9 2009, 03:45 AM:name=Eternaly_Lost)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Eternaly_Lost @ Jun 9 2009, 03:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Blocking the Other team is. Blocking your own team is not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But moving/attacking in a fashion that forces the other team to react to avoid blocking each other IS. That's sort of the entire point. If you can clump together and when you get attacked you simply strafejump backwards through your friend, probably with the help of some knockback, so the attacker needs to target a fresh marine... well that would frustrate me more than the very occasional block by a 'horribad pubber', a block which you should have been able to avoid except you're not good enough to. There I said it. Flame away.
<!--quoteo(post=1711378:date=Jun 9 2009, 06:57 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jun 9 2009, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But moving/attacking in a fashion that forces the other team to react to avoid blocking each other IS. That's sort of the entire point. If you can clump together and when you get attacked you simply strafejump backwards through your friend, probably with the help of some knockback, so the attacker needs to target a fresh marine... well that would frustrate me more than the very occasional block by a 'horribad pubber', a block which you should have been able to avoid except you're not good enough to. There I said it. Flame away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the amounts of times that that will matter is like worrying about how sunspots affected NS2.
I takes no small amount of skill and teamwork to do what you are suggesting as a member of the alien team. The marines would need to be equally skilled to have a chance and not just get killed early on. You would also need to have quite a few more marines in the room, then it can naturally support. And If I recall correctly the mini map shows marines positions.
With two teams that skilled going against each other for such tactics to be in affect, I am sure we could give all the marines magnets on there armor that slowly pull them together, and it would likely have more affect on the outcome of the match.
Tell me, when was the last time you where fighting outside a room in NS, and thought, we really need to get our attacking working together, so the marines will bump into each other, and we can kill them. Just about every attack on a room I can recall as an alien or a marine, the marines were so far apart that they would have had to be on jetpack to reach each other before the aliens had left the room after a quick hit and run strike. And the other kind, mass lifeforms, normally kills everything in there.
Besides I thought that the aliens where more hit do what damage you can then run away, and well a kill is nice, another marine would just pick up his weapon if he had one, where as things that are lost when you die, would not likely be in the case just one more hit.
In truth, what I think you are worried about might matter more when one skulk is ambushing two marines. With no momentum/knockback/whatever, you are more likely to kill one of them, but then again, when it come to 2vs1, you need to be better set up, or you should lose the battle, they after all brought more people to the battle, so you need to place you people where they can do more damage.
Also I found that targeting fresh marines in classic can make the commander get upset, as that means he now has marines who have no armor and just health, and you know what that is to a fade.
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
I'm kinda confused by the arguments here. Who is in favour for total clipping through of your own teammates? Because I don't really read many posters wanting that. Most posters don't want a clip through your own teammates, more like a gentle nudge aside. Then there are people who are arguing against total clip through, when there isnt much support for it anyway.
I think eternaly_lost is in Favor of it, but can live with the Momentum Approach, instead of Burger, who's just bullheaded into TF2's Approach.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the amounts of times that that will matter is like worrying about how sunspots affected NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think so. Everytime I attacked Marines they where in some sort of Tunnel or Walkway (open Rooms are a Death Sentence to Skulks anyway), so I only had to evade the first Line(s) of Players until they emptied their Chamber(s) and where shielding me against the Backup.
With the new Clipping, Marines simply slip past each other while firing and they don't have a Problem taking on even a Faderush.
To my believe, this is just wrong. NS' appeal was...is the Rock vs Scissors Type gameplay, where the Aliens rely on brute melee Superiority versus a Marine's refined, ranged Weaponry.
So, if they want to move as a Clump, they can, but suffer the consequence of limited Mobility. Or they can move a bit spread, cover each other and *maybe* suffer the consequence of a well planned Ambush.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I found that targeting fresh marines in classic can make the commander get upset, as that means he now has marines who have no armor and just health, and you know what that is to a fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you know what's a Welder, right? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> Not to mention that Aliens can't hold Ground long enough to save up a Fade if Skulks are shot down left and right.
I'm all for traditional approach - players are actual physical objects and not some kind of StarCraft mutalisks. It would be especially aggravating with FF off - cluster all marines in one area, wait until several aliens approach, fire/throw a grenade (or any explosion...). Cheesy like Tremulous.
How about a minor refinement, though - make the hitbox "diamond-shaped" rather than "square-shaped" ? The same size, the same shape actually, just rotated 45 degrees. Presumably it would make two players who hit each other slide away. Skulks and other aliens would still be able to use marines as living shields.
About boosting each other being unrealistic - it's only unrealistic if you take it literally, as if a marine was standing on other's head. In real life, it <i>is</i> possible to boost someone up a tree and so on. What's missing is mostly a nice animation. I think you're splitting hairs. Quake 2 didn't have any swimming animations, yet people called people in water "swimming", not floating. Quake3 fixed that, now swimming players don't look ridiculous, and presumably hitbox is more accurate too. <b>Finally</b>, boosting teammates this way always requires teamwork, yet is very risky if someone ambushes you. You're both in the same spot, stationary, and distracted.
<!--quoteo(post=1711394:date=Jun 9 2009, 08:15 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jun 9 2009, 08:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think eternaly_lost is in Favor of it, but can live with the Momentum Approach, instead of Burger, who's just bullheaded into TF2's Approach.
I don't think so. Everytime I attacked Marines they where in some sort of Tunnel or Walkway (open Rooms are a Death Sentence to Skulks anyway), so I only had to evade the first Line(s) of Players until they emptied their Chamber(s) and where shielding me against the Backup.
With the new Clipping, Marines simply slip past each other while firing and they don't have a Problem taking on even a Faderush.
To my believe, this is just wrong. NS' appeal was...is the Rock vs Scissors Type gameplay, where the Aliens rely on brute melee Superiority versus a Marine's refined, ranged Weaponry.
So, if they want to move as a Clump, they can, but suffer the consequence of limited Mobility. Or they can move a bit spread, cover each other and *maybe* suffer the consequence of a well planned Ambush.
And you know what's a Welder, right? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> Not to mention that Aliens can't hold Ground long enough to save up a Fade if Skulks are shot down left and right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To answer the first question, I don't really care one way or another, but If i needed to take an exact stance, I like how they did it in ns with every model being like a solid wall. I found l4d team stacking in one another to be a bit annoying. After that I would most like the Momentum idea, with the classes effects. However, I trust that the devs are going to not just take the first idea they came up with this, and the game will be balanced no matter if players all act like they are all some kind of ghost that can not go though walls.
One thing that I think you might have missed, is that unlike TF2 and L4d there is going to be friendly fire (I can not see this game without it) , and if you stand in another model, you are going to be hit, so slipping pass each other is not going to be as easy as you might think.
Another issue that we need to look at, skulks were made to ambush, not fight right out. If the marine see you before that first hit, you are likely in trouble, or at least that what I though the class was made to be. NS limitation and/or hard counters made this not work too well, but we don't know if they managed to fix this for ns2. It would be a lot different if you could just hide easy, and strike unseen. In fact the only class I could claim was though of as a straight I am going to walk up to you and hit you, is the onos, all the others were to take advantage of the map, be it for hiding ( gorge/ skulk ), map movement and harassment, ( lerk/skulk ), or hit and run attacks ( fade and to a lesser amount skulks they just die ).
The welder part, well that depended on the round a lot, they cost quite a bit early game. After all for the price of 2 welders you could drop a shotgun, and in good hands that shotgun will cripple aliens early game, and put pressure on the early fade if you can keep it. And well I have seen shotgun welder team at the start, most of the time, welders are at base where you don't lose them, oddly enough most comms hate losing a welder more then a shotgun, but I think that has to do with that shotgun was lost killing a fade/lerk and the welder was lost becuase the marine with it, was where he was not to be.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing that I think you might have missed, is that unlike TF2 and L4d there is going to be friendly fire (I can not see this game without it) , and if you stand in another model, you are going to be hit, so slipping pass each other is not going to be as easy as you might think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never played any serious Game with FF on, since most Servers emptied faster than a Vermininfested Burgerparlor on Fire when sv_ff was switched to on.
But I imagine that those Servers would benefit even less from the TF2 Style Collision System, since noone would risk to block Line of Fire for their Mates.
<!--quoteo(post=1711352:date=Jun 9 2009, 03:45 AM:name=Eternaly_Lost)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Eternaly_Lost @ Jun 9 2009, 03:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That not completely true.
Blocking the Other team is. Blocking your own team is not.
The first requires skill and helps your team. The second often is found in lack of skill, or in people who seam to live only to make games go bad for other people.
What I would like to see in an ideal setting, is the first remains where it is, where the second is taken to the point where those who are traitors to there own team, can't do anything, well enough that you need to have some skill other then hold down w to walk around.
Personally, I think this has already been talked about by the devs, and we will see in the alpha, so I don't see much reason to continue to argue this until that time. Then we can all tell them how good a job they did, or yell at them because they did it horrible wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Blocking other marines to protect them is a HUGE part of NS. You've obviously never played competitively if you do not see this. It's so important to set up positioning when deploying siege cannons, to zone around the guys building.
<!--quoteo(post=1711585:date=Jun 10 2009, 12:45 AM:name=Radagast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Radagast @ Jun 10 2009, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Blocking other marines to protect them is a HUGE part of NS. You've obviously never played competitively if you do not see this. It's so important to set up positioning when deploying siege cannons, to zone around the guys building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are missing the point here. the main issue at talk here is teammates blocking other teammates, not protecting them from the other team. You don't stand around the marines building the siege cannons so they can not get away, but so that the other team can not get to them. At least I hope that what they do in competitive play. I know in pubs you might need to do that.
We are talking in theory about the first, not the second, unless you count my idea, where things that are big will push things that are not equally as big away so they can get to what is behind them.
After all if you send a tank to get to a person behind another person, you are going to get there unless the first person has his own tank. Well if you send a dog to get the second person, the first could stop it in theory. Another person would be up in the air, as to what would happen.
<!--quoteo(post=1711592:date=Jun 10 2009, 12:24 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Jun 10 2009, 12:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel competitive gaming is often over represented in this forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It often is, but this issue isn't one of them. One key thing to remember that differentiates NS from other games is that the battles often find themselves happening in cramped and tight quarters, often in areas which are specifically designed so that people cannot pass each other. So if you're a gorge running from fire, you cant' just breeze past the skulks coming the other way and let them take the fire/fall while saving your res. Or if a marine train is chugging through the vent, you just need to attack one knowing that the others can't do a thing until the first one goes down.
Being able to simply slide by your teammates ruins that immersion and feeling of oppressiveness. Ultimately, it makes the experience less of scare/thrill than it could be, and hence less NS.
If People are blocking you on griefing purpose, you either have to tell on them next Time an Admin is on, to the Commander (no Backup for him) or simply vote them out the Server.
Everything else doesn't fit the Game some of us played for literaly Years already.
Comments
I say nudge instead of push because should this be implemented, I think you can only nudge people. Meaning moving your teammates really slowly. and if the players wants to stay put, he just needs to push back and everyone will stay still. So there is still an element of being blocked, but at least you can "squeeze" if you push long enough. I think the most important thing is to move AFK people or people who are just blur.
I think it's a good feature of TF2, but not a good fit for NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It forces the marines to be spatially aware of their teammates.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Turn on friendly fire. Knowing that you're blocking someone behind you at all times just ain't gonna happen. New players have a lot to take in all at once, the exact location and intentions of their teammates is something that only takes time. You STILL need to be aware of your teammates if you want to be the most effective, but at least you aren't going to be in the way while you learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I <3 Friendly FIre servers, but most people don't. I understand you don't want to learn to be aware of your team-mates, but I find being aware of your team-mates is a huge part of teamwork. Being able to cover without getting in their way may seem like a chore, but it's really important and makes you a better player TBH. To reiterate, walk-through for TF2 is fine and fits the game, but NS2 is different.
<!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's not realistic!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't particularly care if it's realistic or not. I think it does happen to be more realistic, but it's irrelevant to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's a tactic!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
If you're relying on the other team to help you kill one of their teammates, you need to really reevaluate your tactics. Seriously though, how often do catch a blocked fade and say "yup, that went exactly as planned!" It's like playing the lottery. You hope you'll win, but you shouldn't make a career of it. I'm still entirely for the idea of blocking members of the <i>other</i> team, or being able to block shots. In fact, I believe that friendly fire can do more good for making players have a better sense of spatial awareness when it comes to teammates than anything else. If you're own teammates block the fade, THAT was probably a tactic that involved a bit of planning and coordination, aka teamwork!
5) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->What about boosting a marine/gorge up on to a ledge!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Hi! I'd like you to meet the people fighting for realism! They're lovely people, I'm sure you'll get along great!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough. I'm glad you see the value of blocking the opposing team and teammates blocking shots. Paragraph 4.) is attacking a strawman though which you avoid the actual issue in 5.) with a joke. Obviously inadvertent blocking isn't a tactic. Boosting gorges/fellow marines is though. Without it NS would feel like it's missing something. Similar to playing Goldeneye Source and not being able to jump.
<!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->6 Onos all sitting inside one another...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Well, yeah. That's a great point. I guess the model that fits well with human (or human shaped) characters doesn't really apply to everything. Oh well time to scrap the whole idea...
OR, we could figure out a solution. How about this: Skulks/small creatures can pass through onos legs. Onos themselves, while not 100% solid to teammates have a more aggressive "push back". (You know the effect when two tf2 players try to stand on a teleport and they're pushed apart?) Think of it this way, you got two of these creatures, they walk up to each other and try to stand in the same spot, the push back doesn't let them. However, one onos is running down a hallway (probably nearly dead) and lo and behold, another onos is coming head on to get in on the action. Problem is the new onos is going up the middle of the hallway. Right now: dead stop, maybe with a death animation. Push back effect results in the problem onos being slightly shoved to the side as the other one "squeezes" past. Might be slowed down, but at least then the space cows are moving more like cattle and taking up less space.
This is kind of going off into the momentum idea, but only sort of.
8) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It'll be abused!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Like the current system isn't ever abused?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
6.) and 8.) are pretty much the same thing. Your solution doesn't really address the abusability of it. The current system can be "griefed" but it can't really be abused. You can block a team-mate, but you can't form a ball of stacked marines/heavies/onos/gorgey dewm. For any slow moving class shiva defense would become a standard. You could argue this takes skill and teamwork to do, but I don't think it take more skill or teamwork than an coordinated attack/defence without team-mate-walk-through enabled. I think onos/fade being able to walk over smaller classes is a good idea, but it is separate from what you're talking about. I think that alone would mostly solve the problem of inadvertent and greifing team-mate blocking without having a TF2 style system.
<!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->9) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's for newbs!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Well, yeah. There is other aspects of teamwork I'd like to see focused on. Having some l33t player berate someone because he got in the way... oh yeah, that'll help grow the player base. I'd rather have lots of servers and players to play with than a select few. Let's remove unnecessary frustration. Just because we've sucked it up and lived with it all this time doesn't make it the better way to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And just because it works for TF2 doesn't make it the better way to play either. The TF2 system is easier for newbs in some ways, but it also obscures some important parts of combat. Careful when you taking about "removing player frustration" because it's a slippery slope. A poor player angry at a newb will berate the newb for whatever. Team-mate blocking is not the cause of this behaviour.
<!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->I have a better idea involving momentum/physics/teleportation/grabbingandpushing/...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
If someone has a better idea or implementation, I'm all for it. Keep it simple while not introducing more problems or potential for griefing though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you should think more about the responses here and not just dismiss them as "backwards" thinking. I think the momentum solution is quite good, as is the onos/fade/heavy having the ability to move over(or push away) much smaller classes.
<!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, I was really hoping that <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->Max or Flayra<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> could chime in here, even hint at what they're doing. Smooth movement/control is a complete win. It's why mappers put clip brushes into maps so that the fancy decorations on the walls don't cause players to snag. (And people sure do complain when that happens!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We'll see soon enough. The devs do answer questions and comment on threads from time to time. We may even see a twitter about this particular topic, but there's no guarantee. It's quite likely you won't know the answer until the alpha though because they're busy working on the game.
Hitscan weapons does not use any projectiles.
I can't belive I'm actually pointing this out but even if they did use projectiles it would not matter since NS is a game and not reality.
To clarify, why not have the tf2 style blocking and then have a server side variable that would turn on blocking.
More options = more people that are happy.
After all could you immage what would happen when someone who newish to the game learned on a server with marines like in l4d, moved to one with marines like NS? There would be rapid chaos, and you don't want that. This is not a simple, give it it own name type of a question.
<!--quoteo(post=1711058:date=Jun 8 2009, 12:29 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Jun 8 2009, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->What about boosting a marine/gorge up on to a ledge!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Hi! I'd like you to meet the people fighting for realism! They're lovely people, I'm sure you'll get along great!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because it impossible in real life to give a friend a boost up a ledge. I must be living in some sort of twilight zone yesterday, I could have sworn I saw two of my friends do just that to get a ball off a roof.
The real issues I see with team blocking, is not the intention kind, but the one where someone get dropped from the game. I am sure you have all experienced the pain of running as an onos, only to hit a skulk that lagged out or crashed, and stop like you just hit a solid wall of metal, not a fleshly creature that is what 1/20 of your mass?
I like the class based momentum, so base marines might be a little bumped around by things less then a fade, unless it moving very fast, like a skulk shot from a cannon, as they are a middle weight. They can move each other around a little, but not much, so that you can avoid blockers and crashed marines, without having the marines able to push each other across the hall without some time. You should still be able to stack, as it lets you boost people.
Now things get interesting when you add the fade, onos, heavy, and jetpack into the mix.
You want the jetpack to basicly be a light class, after all it flies, so it should be affected a lot more.
Heavy could go the opposite way, and say the a heavy ignores all momentum effects. Now your heavy has a use against the onos, block him in.
Part of being aliens is hit and run tactics, so having a fade knock around marines might not be too bad.
And an onos charging down the hall, tell me you don't expect that marine he just ran into to act like a car him, and sending the marine to the other side off the room.
Then again, I will most likely be just fine however NS2 ends up doing it. After the alpha and beta, it would have to be really bad testing if it turned out it not work out.
Exactly!!.. bad idea!!.
just have solid teammates like all good games
You've never played NS with TF2 style team pushing, so how can you say it can be worse? In fact we can only assume it will be better since EVERY GAME IS DOING IT. Stop thinking of all the good times you've had with block models and think of the flaws. You will come to realize that there are a lot more cons then pros when it comes to that style (which is why new games dont use it).
The people defending NS1 block model style are like the people that claim NES games are superior to every next gen console out right now. The games in the past had major flaws that hindered gameplay and because you "grew up" with that style, you think its best. If NS2 seriously has the same movement problems as NS1, I will regret my SE purchase. Enjoy getting blocked by a gorge when you're a fade.
EDIT: actually, I will counter what was said in the first rebuttal.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's still very different. Marine movement was absolutely marvellous in NS, now you could just walk through your teammates to share the damage? The walk through works better on TF2, because it's not melee based, so you'll end up hitting targets a lot anyway and the spaces are less cramped.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're entitled to your opinion and here's mine: Marine movement was horrible. It pains me to even play sometimes because it's so dated (Not only graphically but the physics also). I don't know where you get the idea of sharing damage because you are shoving your teammate aside, especially since you bring up TF2 right after that. You can NEVER share damage from melee hits in TF2. Even thought TF2 isn't melee based, bullets don't travel through your teammates (except for sniper bullets/arrows with the sniper/spy update). This creates "tactical movement" in that sense also, yet you can still squeeze through players on your team.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nothing is realistic on that level of physical interaction, just the gameplay matters IMHO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he ment that in real life you are going to shove your way past people in order to get to your destination. Sure you can't simulate tucking down and running headfirst through your team in order to get that last HMG on the ground, but you can sure as hell mimic the movement with TF2 style pushing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Limiting entrances for attack is a tactic if you ask me. Fighting in cramped spaces where marines can't use their dodges is a good one too. Otherwise it isn't much of a tactic, but more of a situational contributor. Nevertheless, the situational contributors made NS the dynamic gameplay it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see the problem with this. My initial argument stated that teammates can get passed each other (except structures), but could not clip at all through enemy players and structures.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just focus on the questions separately. This isn't some one dimensional YES/NO question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is focusing on the question. The same people that fight for realism and tactical gameplay are the same people that still want boosting via jumping on a teammates head. It's already been stated that it would be cool to be able to boost people but have it so both people can't use their weapons or something.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The partitial slowdown sounds very reasonable to me. UWE even has a good access to the physics now, so it can be tweaked to the right level of 'punishment'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That "slowdown" is exactly what people have been arguing for but it seems like no one understands what TF2 style pushback is. Have two heavy's run toward each other (same team) and when they hit, they will do this push back thing that pushes them both to a side. It slows them down a bit and people still get by just fine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because it's quite unforgiving and nasty right now doesn't mean it should completely go. The partitial slowdown is a good example: It keeps the feature, but makes the punishment reasonable. That way people have still the possibility to improve their game sense, but blocking doesn't become an unnecessarily difficult feature for newbies. Reaching reasonable compromises is the thing I'm looking for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason NS1 has a low "new" player base is because it is outdated and has large problems with many "small" features. One of them being movement. Imagine being used to playing games where TF2 style pushback was the norm (It's been like that since Halo, and probably earlier, this came out in 2001. NS came out in 2002 and was using an outdated HL engine). Then you purchase NS2 and all of sudden, you time travel back to the year 2000 where everything is clunky. I'm a HUGE FPS fanatic, and HL is one of the worst when it comes to player clipping. I haven't player on the engine for about 3 years (stopped playing NS for awhile) and just got back into it a few weeks ago with the announcement of NS2. It is painful to play when I'm blinking and all of a sudden a skulk turns the corner and we both head to a dead stop. I try and blink above him and for some reason he tries to jump over me. In the end, we both die.
Marine player clipping is an excellent thing to take advantage of as a skulk, not only because you can "feel" it when you bump into a marine, but also because marines are blocked by each other and it allows you to kill them more easily.
I think player clipping is an important part of the NS strategy, which encourages teamwork on the marine side.
Marines allways travel in Groups.
Skulks are often alone and far spread.
A lone Skulk ambushes a Group of Marines.
Starts biting a Marine...whoops, slips through his Friends
Starts biting another Marine...whoops, slips through his Friends
Starts biting the third Marine...whoops, died.
Commander hands out Medikits and the Weldbot behind the Marines does his work.
Rinse, repeat, Tech-up until Aliens ragequit.
- giving someone a Boost
seems more logical and realistic to me than Cornershivas
- "growing up with"
I indeed grew up with the old Style, but I like TF2 until there is a Waitingline at teleporting.
To be honest, there is no real difference between the Momentum and TF2 Ideas, but the Momentum Idea seems by far more realistic than running right through your Team's Buildings and static defenses.
- "everyone's doing it"
Not a valid point until you prove me that you jump of the Empire State building because "everyone's doin' it".
And even then...
I'll probably try out the exact mechanic and get back to the rest of the arguments. I might be totally wrong on this one indeed as I thought I had better grasp of the TF2 physics.
Nevertheless, I'll address a few general points:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact we can only assume it will be better since EVERY GAME IS DOING IT. Stop thinking of all the good times you've had with block models and think of the flaws. You will come to realize that there are a lot more cons then pros when it comes to that style (which is why new games dont use it).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of the new games are very much of this new casual wave. They are fine on what they do, giving a good sense of teamwork with little commitment to the actual game. However, as long as they're stating that NS2 is aimed equally for competetive play, I'll keep demanding some less forgiving approaches.
CoD4 is less casual teamwork oriented I guess, but it doesn't attempt to deal with cramped indoor spaces as it's main play field anyway. I think using the low profile collisions works just fine on many games, but NS focuses on that almost claustrophobic indoor melee vs ranged combat. At that point _too_ slippery collisions are a little like removing recoil from WW2 shooters.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He is focusing on the question. The same people that fight for realism and tactical gameplay are the same people that still want boosting via jumping on a teammates head. It's already been stated that it would be cool to be able to boost people but have it so both people can't use their weapons or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we are talking about boosting without any specific quote, it isn't a good answer to resort to realism supporters like that. Probably the argument was just a little misdirected (or misunderstood).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason NS1 has a low "new" player base is because it is outdated and has large problems with many "small" features. One of them being movement. Imagine being used to playing games where TF2 style pushback was the norm (It's been like that since Halo, and probably earlier, this came out in 2001. NS came out in 2002 and was using an outdated HL engine).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh well. I guess I'm so used to the old HL movement that I feel extremely comfortable with it. For me it feels very natural with the clearly drawn collisions and very exact feel.
The low new player base is much more due to the fact that HL was just old, not any specific feature though. People just like to move on to the new games for a change. The forums are here to discuss whether the certain elements should stay. For example this is the first thread I've seen saying that HL1 had bad player collisions.
Blocking is a pivotal part of ns, be it pub or competitive, khaara or marines.
Blocking is a pivotal part of ns, be it pub or competitive, khaara or marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That not completely true.
Blocking the Other team is.
Blocking your own team is not.
The first requires skill and helps your team.
The second often is found in lack of skill, or in people who seam to live only to make games go bad for other people.
What I would like to see in an ideal setting, is the first remains where it is, where the second is taken to the point where those who are traitors to there own team, can't do anything, well enough that you need to have some skill other then hold down w to walk around.
Personally, I think this has already been talked about by the devs, and we will see in the alpha, so I don't see much reason to continue to argue this until that time. Then we can all tell them how good a job they did, or yell at them because they did it horrible wrong.
If you're reducing our arguments to "nostalgia" you're missing the point. And most of the people here are in favor of momentum or another system. The TF2 system is a bad fit for NS and we're explaining why. I think it's kind of funny you're accusing us of closeminded nostalgia when the TF2 system is the only system you'll consider.
<!--quoteo(post=1711291:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM:name=Burger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burger @ Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><logical fallacies>
<misunderstanding the argument><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1711291:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM:name=Burger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burger @ Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That "slowdown" is exactly what people have been arguing for but it seems like no one understands what TF2 style pushback is. Have two heavy's run toward each other (same team) and when they hit, they will do this push back thing that pushes them both to a side. It slows them down a bit and people still get by just fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How you're describing is not actually how it works. You'll clip most of the way through, and if the other player is moving backwards, you'll pretty much walk through them with no resistance. Play on a melee only server/map. Heck just watch a good heavy medic combo, you'll see them walking through each other all the time. Walkthrough is fine for TF2 because most of the weapons have a blast radius and the maps are more open. We're saying it's not a good fit for NS because NS has a completely different play style. The fact that it's an FPS is one of the few things it has in common with TF2.
<!--quoteo(post=1711291:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM:name=Burger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burger @ Jun 8 2009, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><claim the death of NS is due to the clipping style><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blocking your own team is not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But moving/attacking in a fashion that forces the other team to react to avoid blocking each other IS. That's sort of the entire point. If you can clump together and when you get attacked you simply strafejump backwards through your friend, probably with the help of some knockback, so the attacker needs to target a fresh marine... well that would frustrate me more than the very occasional block by a 'horribad pubber', a block which you should have been able to avoid except you're not good enough to. There I said it. Flame away.
I think the amounts of times that that will matter is like worrying about how sunspots affected NS2.
I takes no small amount of skill and teamwork to do what you are suggesting as a member of the alien team. The marines would need to be equally skilled to have a chance and not just get killed early on. You would also need to have quite a few more marines in the room, then it can naturally support. And If I recall correctly the mini map shows marines positions.
With two teams that skilled going against each other for such tactics to be in affect, I am sure we could give all the marines magnets on there armor that slowly pull them together, and it would likely have more affect on the outcome of the match.
Tell me, when was the last time you where fighting outside a room in NS, and thought, we really need to get our attacking working together, so the marines will bump into each other, and we can kill them. Just about every attack on a room I can recall as an alien or a marine, the marines were so far apart that they would have had to be on jetpack to reach each other before the aliens had left the room after a quick hit and run strike. And the other kind, mass lifeforms, normally kills everything in there.
Besides I thought that the aliens where more hit do what damage you can then run away, and well a kill is nice, another marine would just pick up his weapon if he had one, where as things that are lost when you die, would not likely be in the case just one more hit.
In truth, what I think you are worried about might matter more when one skulk is ambushing two marines. With no momentum/knockback/whatever, you are more likely to kill one of them, but then again, when it come to 2vs1, you need to be better set up, or you should lose the battle, they after all brought more people to the battle, so you need to place you people where they can do more damage.
Also I found that targeting fresh marines in classic can make the commander get upset, as that means he now has marines who have no armor and just health, and you know what that is to a fade.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the amounts of times that that will matter is like worrying about how sunspots affected NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think so. Everytime I attacked Marines they where in some sort of Tunnel or Walkway (open Rooms are a Death Sentence to Skulks anyway), so I only had to evade the first Line(s) of Players until they emptied their Chamber(s) and where shielding me against the Backup.
With the new Clipping, Marines simply slip past each other while firing and they don't have a Problem taking on even a Faderush.
To my believe, this is just wrong. NS' appeal was...is the Rock vs Scissors Type gameplay, where the Aliens rely on brute melee Superiority versus a Marine's refined, ranged Weaponry.
So, if they want to move as a Clump, they can, but suffer the consequence of limited Mobility.
Or they can move a bit spread, cover each other and *maybe* suffer the consequence of a well planned Ambush.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I found that targeting fresh marines in classic can make the commander get upset, as that means he now has marines who have no armor and just health, and you know what that is to a fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you know what's a Welder, right? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Not to mention that Aliens can't hold Ground long enough to save up a Fade if Skulks are shot down left and right.
How about a minor refinement, though - make the hitbox "diamond-shaped" rather than "square-shaped" ? The same size, the same shape actually, just rotated 45 degrees. Presumably it would make two players who hit each other slide away. Skulks and other aliens would still be able to use marines as living shields.
About boosting each other being unrealistic - it's only unrealistic if you take it literally, as if a marine was standing on other's head. In real life, it <i>is</i> possible to boost someone up a tree and so on. What's missing is mostly a nice animation. I think you're splitting hairs. Quake 2 didn't have any swimming animations, yet people called people in water "swimming", not floating. Quake3 fixed that, now swimming players don't look ridiculous, and presumably hitbox is more accurate too.
<b>Finally</b>, boosting teammates this way always requires teamwork, yet is very risky if someone ambushes you. You're both in the same spot, stationary, and distracted.
I don't think so. Everytime I attacked Marines they where in some sort of Tunnel or Walkway (open Rooms are a Death Sentence to Skulks anyway), so I only had to evade the first Line(s) of Players until they emptied their Chamber(s) and where shielding me against the Backup.
With the new Clipping, Marines simply slip past each other while firing and they don't have a Problem taking on even a Faderush.
To my believe, this is just wrong. NS' appeal was...is the Rock vs Scissors Type gameplay, where the Aliens rely on brute melee Superiority versus a Marine's refined, ranged Weaponry.
So, if they want to move as a Clump, they can, but suffer the consequence of limited Mobility.
Or they can move a bit spread, cover each other and *maybe* suffer the consequence of a well planned Ambush.
And you know what's a Welder, right? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Not to mention that Aliens can't hold Ground long enough to save up a Fade if Skulks are shot down left and right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To answer the first question, I don't really care one way or another, but If i needed to take an exact stance, I like how they did it in ns with every model being like a solid wall. I found l4d team stacking in one another to be a bit annoying. After that I would most like the Momentum idea, with the classes effects. However, I trust that the devs are going to not just take the first idea they came up with this, and the game will be balanced no matter if players all act like they are all some kind of ghost that can not go though walls.
One thing that I think you might have missed, is that unlike TF2 and L4d there is going to be friendly fire (I can not see this game without it) , and if you stand in another model, you are going to be hit, so slipping pass each other is not going to be as easy as you might think.
Another issue that we need to look at, skulks were made to ambush, not fight right out. If the marine see you before that first hit, you are likely in trouble, or at least that what I though the class was made to be. NS limitation and/or hard counters made this not work too well, but we don't know if they managed to fix this for ns2. It would be a lot different if you could just hide easy, and strike unseen. In fact the only class I could claim was though of as a straight I am going to walk up to you and hit you, is the onos, all the others were to take advantage of the map, be it for hiding ( gorge/ skulk ), map movement and harassment, ( lerk/skulk ), or hit and run attacks ( fade and to a lesser amount skulks they just die ).
The welder part, well that depended on the round a lot, they cost quite a bit early game. After all for the price of 2 welders you could drop a shotgun, and in good hands that shotgun will cripple aliens early game, and put pressure on the early fade if you can keep it. And well I have seen shotgun welder team at the start, most of the time, welders are at base where you don't lose them, oddly enough most comms hate losing a welder more then a shotgun, but I think that has to do with that shotgun was lost killing a fade/lerk and the welder was lost becuase the marine with it, was where he was not to be.
I never played any serious Game with FF on, since most Servers emptied faster than a Vermininfested Burgerparlor on Fire when sv_ff was switched to on.
But I imagine that those Servers would benefit even less from the TF2 Style Collision System, since noone would risk to block Line of Fire for their Mates.
Blocking the Other team is.
Blocking your own team is not.
The first requires skill and helps your team.
The second often is found in lack of skill, or in people who seam to live only to make games go bad for other people.
What I would like to see in an ideal setting, is the first remains where it is, where the second is taken to the point where those who are traitors to there own team, can't do anything, well enough that you need to have some skill other then hold down w to walk around.
Personally, I think this has already been talked about by the devs, and we will see in the alpha, so I don't see much reason to continue to argue this until that time. Then we can all tell them how good a job they did, or yell at them because they did it horrible wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blocking other marines to protect them is a HUGE part of NS. You've obviously never played competitively if you do not see this. It's so important to set up positioning when deploying siege cannons, to zone around the guys building.
You are missing the point here. the main issue at talk here is teammates blocking other teammates, not protecting them from the other team.
You don't stand around the marines building the siege cannons so they can not get away, but so that the other team can not get to them. At least I hope that what they do in competitive play. I know in pubs you might need to do that.
We are talking in theory about the first, not the second, unless you count my idea, where things that are big will push things that are not equally as big away so they can get to what is behind them.
After all if you send a tank to get to a person behind another person, you are going to get there unless the first person has his own tank. Well if you send a dog to get the second person, the first could stop it in theory. Another person would be up in the air, as to what would happen.
It often is, but this issue isn't one of them.
One key thing to remember that differentiates NS from other games is that the battles often find themselves happening in cramped and tight quarters, often in areas which are specifically designed so that people cannot pass each other. So if you're a gorge running from fire, you cant' just breeze past the skulks coming the other way and let them take the fire/fall while saving your res. Or if a marine train is chugging through the vent, you just need to attack one knowing that the others can't do a thing until the first one goes down.
Being able to simply slide by your teammates ruins that immersion and feeling of oppressiveness. Ultimately, it makes the experience less of scare/thrill than it could be, and hence less NS.
Everything else doesn't fit the Game some of us played for literaly Years already.