Will there be tf2/l4d style anti-teammate-blocking?
BigD
[OldF] Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1596Members
[OldF] Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1596Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Bug #1</div>When I posted <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103218&st=0" target="_blank">this suggestion</a> like forever ago, back when TF2 was new, I thought it was a genius solution to the problem of being blocked by teammates (possibly the most annoying way to die, or the frustrating way to be a lame ass).
Now, after these umpteen months of playing TF2 and then L4D with this, I'd say it's going beyond a suggestion. <i>It's bloody mandatory.</i> After trying to play NS a couple times after so long, I'd really like to hear from someone in the know, yes or no, that something better than walking cubes of cement are in the new engine. I'm not here to debate it. I just want to know if it (or something that accomplishes the same goals) is going to be in NS2. Will the movement code in this regard be modern or archaic?
Again, I don't care what happens between enemies, just between teammates.
Now, after these umpteen months of playing TF2 and then L4D with this, I'd say it's going beyond a suggestion. <i>It's bloody mandatory.</i> After trying to play NS a couple times after so long, I'd really like to hear from someone in the know, yes or no, that something better than walking cubes of cement are in the new engine. I'm not here to debate it. I just want to know if it (or something that accomplishes the same goals) is going to be in NS2. Will the movement code in this regard be modern or archaic?
Again, I don't care what happens between enemies, just between teammates.
Comments
One, I'm quite used to the "walk through" feature...but at the same time, for NS, it does add to a sense of claustrophobia and even slight tactics for the kharra. Bring the marines down a small corridor helps give the aliens the advantage of less maneuverability for the marines.
TF2 doesn't involve very much ambushing tactics, so maneuverability by eliminating team blocking won't matter much.
In L4D, there were only 4 survivors, and the gameplay makes them constantly move forward, so they don't really need to hide or anything.
Removing teamblocking in NS2 would remove a layer of strategy in marine positioning.
Imagine if blocking was disabled, marines can all cluster into a tiny hiding spot, and the Khaara may miss them easily... allowing the marines to 'swarm' out from that tiny spot and ambush their hive. If blocking was not disabled, they would not be able to do this, and there wouldn't be enough space for all the marines to hide in, thus making it easier for the Khaara to be aware of the marine's presence.
And who can forget the time when you were a marine inside of a vent with other fellow marines and all get stuck while the skulks, gorges, and lerks constantly bombard you all?
Also without strong collisions you can not have marines stack on one another, or gorges giving other players a boost.
A much better work around would be to physic the players when they hit, so that fade going 500 down that hallway won't just stop on a skulk, but sent it foward, slowing the fade down some as well, not only is it realist, but it also makes it hard for one marine to just stop a onos at full charge. Sure if he in a heavy, he might just stop the onos right there as heavy are both heavy and have some sort of anti push addon, so they can't be pushed.
Another advantage with this is against people who try to block there own team, they have to push exactly opposite to have them not move, and the real players could push him out of the way after a short time.
A much better work around would be to physic the players when they hit, so that fade going 500 down that hallway won't just stop on a skulk, but sent it foward, slowing the fade down some as well, not only is it realist, but it also makes it hard for one marine to just stop a onos at full charge. Sure if he in a heavy, he might just stop the onos right there as heavy are both heavy and have some sort of anti push addon, so they can't be pushed.
Another advantage with this is against people who try to block there own team, they have to push exactly opposite to have them not move, and the real players could push him out of the way after a short time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that is a great way to deal with blocking. It adds depth to the game rather than taking some away.
Lol you think that the rather REALISTIC action of blocking someone is archaic?!? Strangely enough walking through people, even your friends isn't possible and tbh is just silly in an fps. Being blocked is annoying, but it adds more skill and strategy to games.
I like the idea of being able to push others with momentum mentioned by others.
If there'll be any anti-blocking, I would only want to remove the ability of a skulk to block an onos ... or lerk blocking an onos. Those are annoying and extremely unrealistic. Puny little things should not get in the way of an onos.
Hehe, it would also be awesome if an onos could just trample a little skulk or gorge. I can just imagine their legs folding in beneath them or shooting out to the side as an onos runs over it - accompanied by a sound effect of course. This might get rather irritating for smaller life forms, but it will ensure that they don't get in the way <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />.
A much better work around would be to physic the players when they hit, so that fade going 500 down that hallway won't just stop on a skulk, but sent it foward, slowing the fade down some as well, not only is it realist, but it also makes it hard for one marine to just stop a onos at full charge. Sure if he in a heavy, he might just stop the onos right there as heavy are both heavy and have some sort of anti push addon, so they can't be pushed.
Another advantage with this is against people who try to block there own team, they have to push exactly opposite to have them not move, and the real players could push him out of the way after a short time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being able to force good marines' movement as a skulk to avoid blocking, or to directly use marines as shields if they aren't as good, is a very important element of the melee vs ranged mechanic. The ability to move in groups to avoid this effect as rines was one of the less obvious differences between good players and teams, and worse ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>QFT.</b>
Let us just hope noone finds it too hilarious to bump teammates into lethal spots, heh.
Now, after these umpteen months of playing TF2 and then L4D with this, I'd say it's going beyond a suggestion. <i>It's bloody mandatory.</i> After trying to play NS a couple times after so long, I'd really like to hear from someone in the know, yes or no, that something better than walking cubes of cement are in the new engine. I'm not here to debate it. I just want to know if it (or something that accomplishes the same goals) is going to be in NS2. Will the movement code in this regard be modern or archaic?
Again, I don't care what happens between enemies, just between teammates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually i wish L4D didnt have this, as the shiva defense is absolutely retarded : )
I agree with the TF2 aspect. In TF2 you could never just walk right through a person. You just move them slightly so that they are no longer in your way. If you try and clip together in a corner, one of you will be forced to move. Just make it so people can push each other out of the way via TF2 method and have it so bullets can't pass through teammates. That way it doesn't seem like you are running, as the OP said, into a block of cement. It adds a sense of realism where if you run into someone, they will move. Obviously vents and stuff will end up with everyone being trapped <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
But in my opinion, stacking on top of each others heads should be removed. That was an old school device that was an effect of the player clipping models being completely blockish. Yes it will damper some of the creative uses of stacking on your friends head, but like I said, creative. You should be able to think of another way to get into a vent. Whether it's the ability to give the marines a "climb" ability so they can pull themselves onto ledges or gorges having to skulk then gorge to reach a higher spot. Yes that's a waste of res, but you should have thought about it before you gorged on the ground.
And standing on other marines is also a tactical maneuver. I think it could be made more interesting if it could only be done while the marine below isn't firing.. and thus have the model reach a hand up to steady the upper marine's leg or something.. as then it becomes a true tactical decision by both parties.
The momentum system sounds the best to me. Or if that's too much processor power, at least a system where Kharaa can only be blocked by Kharaa of their class or higher.
It helps teammates get around people that strafe constantly in hallways. You can just program is so that bullets can't pass through teammates (like soldier rockets cant go through teammates). It gives it a more "realistic" approach to how people interact with each other. If I'm dieing in the front, you sure as hell believe I'm going to push you guys out of the way to get to the back. I rather not have to deal with clipping a skulk while blinking as a fade and dieing. TF2 style allows people to get through areas without constantly clipping on some cement block called a person.
Yes it makes sense to make all structures still nonclippable, and yes it makes sense to make it so bullets cant clip through players (this allows a more tactical approach to marine positioning), but it doesn't make sense to have a person purely unmovable. In TF2 it's nice if I'm trying to heal someone as a medic, I can just shove everyone out of the way so I can get to the front. To the poster above that mentions pushing snipers out into the open. To that I say, don't stand so close to a corner if you know danger is around it. It's like a real life. If we were all standing near a corner, strafing around like idiots, one of us is going to get pushed into the open.
And it allows strategic positioning of structures and players to block the other players. In TF2 style, you can't clip through enemy structures or players (example, a spy trying to sap a engineers crap: you can tell its a spy cause it can jump on your structures). That way you cant have an onos just plow right through people (literally). They would have to work their way to the back by killing everyone in his way.
The momentum things sounds like a great idea in theory, but I can't see something like that getting implemented realistically. Else marines would get screwed by skulks jumping (p=mv, skulks have a large velocity), fades blinking, and god forbid an onos charges through. You have to look at it from a balance standpoint, and with momentum, marines would be at a huge disadvantage.
Something between the cement blocks and the ghost-friends, would be ideal. Straight head on collision should result in two similar sized players stopping. But a "shoulder bump" shouldn't present such an effect. If the hallway is narrow enough then you should get blocked by friends.
But make it physics based so that the Onos is not stopped by smaller forms.
Regarding the fade-block I think that marines should pretty much be able to do this as long as the fade is not traveling too fast (In which case perhaps both should take damage).
I just wet myself!
It's a bad idea for NS2, other's pretty much nailed it on the head, especially that quote from Mr Charisma.
The momentum things sounds like a great idea in theory, but I can't see something like that getting implemented realistically. Else marines would get screwed by skulks jumping (p=mv, skulks have a large velocity), fades blinking, and god forbid an onos charges through. You have to look at it from a balance standpoint, and with momentum, marines would be at a huge disadvantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the fun thing about a <u>game</u>: you can pretty much code the effect and adjust the momentum as you please. I.e. take p=mv and make it p=Cmv, where C is a model/creature dependent constant. Problem solved. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
That will really seperate NS2 from the kiddie games like TF2 and halo.
Hopefully the devs wont finds this too difficult to implement, I know the interp and all that might be a pain. Pushing people around corners, much like shooting them around corners. In advance I say, stay TF off my american servers chinamen. Sometimes euros and aousies hae less than 150 ping, but someone that doesn't speak and has mega ping is absolutely worthless.
i believe, that is something we should better try out in alpha/beta, before forcing one ultimate opinion...
both things have pros and cons.
1) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It forces the marines to be spatially aware of their teammates.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Turn on friendly fire. Knowing that you're blocking someone behind you at all times just ain't gonna happen. New players have a lot to take in all at once, the exact location and intentions of their teammates is something that only takes time. You STILL need to be aware of your teammates if you want to be the most effective, but at least you aren't going to be in the way while you learn.
3) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's not realistic!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Actually it's probably as realistic as a video game can get. Go run into a crowd of people. You'll tuck in your arms, twist your shoulders and automatically squeeze through. It might not be graceful, and someone will always slow you down, but you'll get through. Contrast that to a group of marines. You're running full tilt boogey because something is chasing you down (I'm being team agnostic here) but you stop dead because the teammates coming to your rescue (or oblivious to the danger) are coming right at you as well. There is no way to simulate the fluid movements of real people short of tying wii remotes on peoples legs or something silly.
4) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's a tactic!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
If you're relying on the other team to help you kill one of their teammates, you need to really reevaluate your tactics. Seriously though, how often do catch a blocked fade and say "yup, that went exactly as planned!" It's like playing the lottery. You hope you'll win, but you shouldn't make a career of it. I'm still entirely for the idea of blocking members of the <i>other</i> team, or being able to block shots. In fact, I believe that friendly fire can do more good for making players have a better sense of spatial awareness when it comes to teammates than anything else. If you're own teammates block the fade, THAT was probably a tactic that involved a bit of planning and coordination, aka teamwork!
5) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->What about boosting a marine/gorge up on to a ledge!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Hi! I'd like you to meet the people fighting for realism! They're lovely people, I'm sure you'll get along great!
6) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->6 Onos all sitting inside one another...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Well, yeah. That's a great point. I guess the model that fits well with human (or human shaped) characters doesn't really apply to everything. Oh well time to scrap the whole idea...
OR, we could figure out a solution. How about this: Skulks/small creatures can pass through onos legs. Onos themselves, while not 100% solid to teammates have a more aggressive "push back". (You know the effect when two tf2 players try to stand on a teleport and they're pushed apart?) Think of it this way, you got two of these creatures, they walk up to each other and try to stand in the same spot, the push back doesn't let them. However, one onos is running down a hallway (probably nearly dead) and lo and behold, another onos is coming head on to get in on the action. Problem is the new onos is going up the middle of the hallway. Right now: dead stop, maybe with a death animation. Push back effect results in the problem onos being slightly shoved to the side as the other one "squeezes" past. Might be slowed down, but at least then the space cows are moving more like cattle and taking up less space.
This is kind of going off into the momentum idea, but only sort of.
7) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->I have a better idea involving momentum/physics/teleportation/grabbingandpushing/...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
If someone has a better idea or implementation, I'm all for it. Keep it simple while not introducing more problems or potential for griefing though.
8) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It'll be abused!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Like the current system isn't ever abused?
9) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's for newbs!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Well, yeah. There is other aspects of teamwork I'd like to see focused on. Having some l33t player berate someone because he got in the way... oh yeah, that'll help grow the player base. I'd rather have lots of servers and players to play with than a select few. Let's remove unnecessary frustration. Just because we've sucked it up and lived with it all this time doesn't make it the better way to play.
Anyway, I was really hoping that <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->Max or Flayra<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> could chime in here, even hint at what they're doing. Smooth movement/control is a complete win. It's why mappers put clip brushes into maps so that the fancy decorations on the walls don't cause players to snag. (And people sure do complain when that happens!)
You are mistaken, marines have the advantage with their projectiles (bullets, explosions, etc) this will bring a speeding skulk/fade to a dead stop if it doesnt push it backwards. projectiles have a huge momentum.
Turn on friendly fire. Knowing that you're blocking someone behind you at all times just ain't gonna happen. New players have a lot to take in all at once, the exact location and intentions of their teammates is something that only takes time. You STILL need to be aware of your teammates if you want to be the most effective, but at least you aren't going to be in the way while you learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's still very different. Marine movement was absolutely marvellous in NS, now you could just walk through your teammates to share the damage? The walk through works better on TF2, because it's not melee based, so you'll end up hitting targets a lot anyway and the spaces are less cramped.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's not realistic!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Actually it's probably as realistic as a video game can get. Go run into a crowd of people. You'll tuck in your arms, twist your shoulders and automatically squeeze through. It might not be graceful, and someone will always slow you down, but you'll get through. Contrast that to a group of marines. You're running full tilt boogey because something is chasing you down (I'm being team agnostic here) but you stop dead because the teammates coming to your rescue (or oblivious to the danger) are coming right at you as well. There is no way to simulate the fluid movements of real people short of tying wii remotes on peoples legs or something silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing is realistic on that level of physical interaction, just the gameplay matters IMHO.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's a tactic!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
If you're relying on the other team to help you kill one of their teammates, you need to really reevaluate your tactics. Seriously though, how often do catch a blocked fade and say "yup, that went exactly as planned!" It's like playing the lottery. You hope you'll win, but you shouldn't make a career of it. I'm still entirely for the idea of blocking members of the <i>other</i> team, or being able to block shots. In fact, I believe that friendly fire can do more good for making players have a better sense of spatial awareness when it comes to teammates than anything else. If you're own teammates block the fade, THAT was probably a tactic that involved a bit of planning and coordination, aka teamwork!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Limiting entrances for attack is a tactic if you ask me. Fighting in cramped spaces where marines can't use their dodges is a good one too. Otherwise it isn't much of a tactic, but more of a situational contributor. Nevertheless, the situational contributors made NS the dynamic gameplay it is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->What about boosting a marine/gorge up on to a ledge!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Hi! I'd like you to meet the people fighting for realism! They're lovely people, I'm sure you'll get along great!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just focus on the questions separately. This isn't some one dimensional YES/NO question.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->6 Onos all sitting inside one another...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Well, yeah. That's a great point. I guess the model that fits well with human (or human shaped) characters doesn't really apply to everything. Oh well time to scrap the whole idea...
OR, we could figure out a solution. How about this: Skulks/small creatures can pass through onos legs. Onos themselves, while not 100% solid to teammates have a more aggressive "push back". (You know the effect when two tf2 players try to stand on a teleport and they're pushed apart?) Think of it this way, you got two of these creatures, they walk up to each other and try to stand in the same spot, the push back doesn't let them. However, one onos is running down a hallway (probably nearly dead) and lo and behold, another onos is coming head on to get in on the action. Problem is the new onos is going up the middle of the hallway. Right now: dead stop, maybe with a death animation. Push back effect results in the problem onos being slightly shoved to the side as the other one "squeezes" past. Might be slowed down, but at least then the space cows are moving more like cattle and taking up less space.
This is kind of going off into the momentum idea, but only sort of.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The partitial slowdown sounds very reasonable to me. UWE even has a good access to the physics now, so it can be tweaked to the right level of 'punishment'.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->9) <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's for newbs!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Well, yeah. There is other aspects of teamwork I'd like to see focused on. Having some l33t player berate someone because he got in the way... oh yeah, that'll help grow the player base. I'd rather have lots of servers and players to play with than a select few. Let's remove unnecessary frustration. Just because we've sucked it up and lived with it all this time doesn't make it the better way to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because it's quite unforgiving and nasty right now doesn't mean it should completely go. The partitial slowdown is a good example: It keeps the feature, but makes the punishment reasonable. That way people have still the possibility to improve their game sense, but blocking doesn't become an unnecessarily difficult feature for newbies. Reaching reasonable compromises is the thing I'm looking for.