In NS1, sure you can build anywhere. And in the beginning, I remember this freedom. But quickly, you realize what works and what doesn't, and soon there is only 1 viable strategy. Anything else and it's EJECT! Ah, and good old DMS, etc. And OMG why are you building a sensory THERE?! You're <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->supposed<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to put it in the east vent! A TF, at alpha?! Noob comm, eject...
Sometimes the right restrictions lead to more choices once the strategic landscape has had time to settle in.
And you still can build anywhere, just not res nodes (just like NS1), hives, or comm chairs. I also think the total effect of node chaining on structures, economy, and tech has yet to be decided.
<!--quoteo(post=1704742:date=Apr 11 2009, 03:13 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Apr 11 2009, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, and good old DMS, etc. And OMG why are you building a sensory THERE?! You're <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->supposed<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to put it in the east vent! A TF, at alpha?!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MSD/MDS, a sensory chamber at hive 1 at all, where you put the chambers depends on how or if you want to defend the hive and a tf at all except for very certain circumstances leads to eject. Nice try though! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1704627:date=Apr 11 2009, 12:26 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Apr 11 2009, 12:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704627"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>2: since if one RT is knocked out that supplies power to others down the line it knocks them all out, it makes all rts much more valuable, and can destroy an entire area if it is taken down. so if the marines set up a little base outside of a hive to take it down, and one skulk runs to some rt between there and comm and takes it out, it completely powers down that expansion base and completely ruins the advance on that hive. this seems way overpowered for the aliens since marines can't afford to lose any rt. also, protecting rts is a tedious task, and making it such an integral part of the game would really detract from the the possible fun.</i>
This is the whole point! The resource nodes will be tougher to kill to balance this out. Also, when a node is being hit, all the lights and things being affected by it will be flicking dramatically so you'll know very well it's under attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now i get it ! but still i am concerned about how this all end up.
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--quoteo(post=1704701:date=Apr 11 2009, 09:06 AM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NeoSniper @ Apr 11 2009, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-I think the Map example doesn't seem to highlight the cool posibilities behind this mechanic. And thus hurts acceptance by community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually agree; if I had known Charlie was going to use my topdown paint-filled layout so soon I'd have cleaned it up a bit! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> What you're seeing there is the <i>first</i> pass block-in interpretation of the layout "archetype" assembled on the left. We chose that particular archetype because we believed it to be one of the stronger ones created, and a "safe" one with which to develop the power grid system. It's messier than I'd like, even for as early as it is, but handles the important first-pass questions of timing/spacing, and if this system will even work, and can be rapidly updated and changed to work with the system as it develops.
When I put all the layout ideas together Charlie mentioned writing a dev blog covering their development... I think I'll put that together this weekend and see about getting it posted. Hopefully it'll help you guys see how the system applies to different layout styles.
I think you all may be forgetting one important thing in regards to this:
Aliens being able to knock out the resource grid but Marines can't, is this...
Marines <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> have ranged weaponry and Aliens <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> are cute and plushy and like to gnaw on your ankles mostly.
(The intent of that sentence, is that, Marines have the "upperhand" when played right.)
<!--quoteo(post=1704745:date=Apr 11 2009, 03:51 PM:name=KungFuSquirrel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KungFuSquirrel @ Apr 11 2009, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I actually agree; if I had known Charlie was going to use my topdown paint-filled layout so soon I'd have cleaned it up a bit! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> What you're seeing there is the <i>first</i> pass block-in interpretation of the layout "archetype" assembled on the left. We chose that particular archetype because we believed it to be one of the stronger ones created, and a "safe" one with which to develop the power grid system. It's messier than I'd like, even for as early as it is, but handles the important first-pass questions of timing/spacing, and if this system will even work, and can be rapidly updated and changed to work with the system as it develops.
When I put all the layout ideas together Charlie mentioned writing a dev blog covering their development... I think I'll put that together this weekend and see about getting it posted. Hopefully it'll help you guys see how the system applies to different layout styles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough - I guess it just got taken as gospel once it was put in a news post. I'd be very interested in seeing some map layouts that you're thinking of.
Now that you talk about it as more of a test map for the power grid mechanic, though, I can kind of see what you mean. It's simple, covers all the features within the power grid system, and is fair balance-wise. (the balance being necessary to make sure the grid itself works fairly, I suppose) Makes me think of the test map for the original UT's multi-team CTF mod. Just 4 rooms in a square with each room having one hallway to all the others. But for testing, it worked.
<!--quoteo(post=1704700:date=Apr 11 2009, 05:58 AM:name=1mannARMEE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(1mannARMEE @ Apr 11 2009, 05:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess the Ressource Towers that are not connected anymore after the loss of that "original" command chair are no longer powered until they are reconnected to the second one and if one hive dies ... the hive is dead and I guess the infestation retreats slowly from that area and some abilities or stuff that relies on it are deactivated.
Having some special buildings that do not need the power grid at all or having a portable power source (like others and myself suggested) would be crucial to make the gameplay more exciting I guess, but even without it this so called "restriction" makes the game much more interesting than it was before. If NS2 is fully packed with those nice new and intuitiv ideas I guess it will be very very veeeeery awesome <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I can't wait for another post like this to reveal some more stuff Hm yeah thats kind of sad to remove those personal relocating, but I guess this way there is a much more intense fight over the "good" tech points and no "endless" searching for some hidden relocation ... And I guess the benefits overwhelm the bad sides<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what you mean about "CC placements", but do you mean relocations? You can still relocate if you want, but you are limited to any place with a tech point.
<!--quoteo(post=1704708:date=Apr 11 2009, 06:17 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KuBaN @ Apr 11 2009, 06:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remember that Siege Cannons are now mobile. While marines may lose their freedom to build a CC ANYWHERE, we now have the freedom of besieging locations without having to set up a forward outpost.
From the fact that only two "nodes" have both tech points and res nodes, it looks as though these are starting locations, and if there are only 2 on each map, that hardly seems dynamic.
The multiple commander concept will definitely need some further explaining.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oops - yeah those two locations are the marine start and alien start locations. We support random start locations, but there is enough other work to do that right that I have a feeling that all of our v1.0 maps will have fixed starting locations.
I'll go into multiple commanders at some point but the takeaway is that the commander on both sides will be less about being a total authority and more about being a different character "class". I loved the leadership qualities of an authoritarian Commander in NS, but I believe that the overall game will be better if the role is designed to allow multiples to function together with stepping on each other's toes. I
<!--quoteo(post=1704712:date=Apr 11 2009, 06:55 AM:name=Xero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xero @ Apr 11 2009, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the tech points idea. I think there should only be 4 on a map. And the marine start and alien start should be randomized between those 4 points so that neither team knows where the other team begins. This really makes for a different game each time. Also, hive rooms won't be needed because dynamic infestation will basically make the alien start into a default hive room.
Also, the marines should continue to tech without needing to capture additional tech points. Similar to NS1, marines build up in their base while aliens capture the remaining 2 tech points for upgrading. This keeps each race unique.
I don't care for the linked energy system because it basically limits strategy. Part of the fun of NS1 is making forward attack points and linking them with phase gates. Perhaps the aliens can have a similar system like the Zerg Nydas Canal or other warp system. However, a direct energy line link really seems to kill originality.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We would love to do this but getting the audio/visuals right for a dynamic hive room is very tricky. Ie, we would have to programmatically make a hive room feel totally alieny with code. That's a big challenge and one we might save for after v1.0.
We're trying to do this as much as possible (with DI, etc.) but committing to it for v1.0 is a big risk.
<!--quoteo(post=1704754:date=Apr 11 2009, 02:24 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Apr 11 2009, 02:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We would love to do this but getting the audio/visuals right for a dynamic hive room is very tricky. Ie, we would have to programmatically make a hive room feel totally alieny with code. That's a big challenge and one we might save for after v1.0.
We're trying to do this as much as possible (with DI, etc.) but committing to it for v1.0 is a big risk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since fixed start locations look like a possibility, can we make the start locations for the initial hive/command chair have a inherit advantage on the map unique to each side.
I.E.
Alien start hive would have alot of natural positions (vents and the like) to ambush from, where as Marine start not so much (Marines get height advantage?). The reason being is that I dont want the starting Tech Nodes be so uniform that they are easy to take over in the first 3 minutes of the game, because then the game just turns into who rushes better. You see this alot in RTS games where one side(or more) is inbalanced, with the end result being the game is decided within the first few minutes of the game because the other person had a better build/rush strategy.
(Just added this.)
I prefer maps with each room is unique to the next (but go with the theme of the map), to just "Tournament" style maps like in RTS games. That is what I am getting at.
<!--quoteo(post=1704734:date=Apr 11 2009, 10:06 AM:name=Ryse_Slade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ryse_Slade @ Apr 11 2009, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having two (or more) commanders sounds interesting but I can understand why people don't like the idea. Imagine players jumping into the CC just to drop a shotgun for themself. At the same time the idea of two commanders (maybe even with split resources) when there is no power connection between their CCs - and the requirement to have another commander to build at the other base - sounds very interesting but this would probably add a layer of complexity that goes well beyond the scope of a shooter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fyi, Commanders don't drop weapons for players any more. Players on the ground buy their own weapons at an armory. The commander is responsible for researching weapons though.
Also, there is no requirement for a 2nd Commander, ever. You can build a second Command Station and build in that room normally. They don't have to be linked either. Rooms with a built Command Station in them are always powered (until that Command Station is destroyed).
<!--quoteo(post=1704756:date=Apr 11 2009, 02:43 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Apr 11 2009, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fyi, Commanders don't drop weapons for players any more. Players on the ground buy their own weapons at an armory. The commander is responsible for researching weapons though.
Also, there is no requirement for a 2nd Commander, ever. You can build a second Command Station and build in that room normally. They don't have to be linked either. Rooms with a built Command Station in them are always powered (until that Command Station is destroyed).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have a system like Left 4 Dead, where if more than 50% of the team votes out a Commander, he is temporarily relieved of command for say like, 5 minutes or so. Also including a votekick option as well like Left 4 Dead would be good to, but make that like 75% of the players on your own team.
Here's the problem people are worried about when it comes to a 2nd commander:
Do they share resources? We need to know how the resource model is possibly going to work to determine if this is okay or not.
Can they override each other's actions?
Can they make a permanent choice without consulting the orginal commander, thus making their team lose? (Research more armor when weapons upgrades are needed.) Suggestion: Limit 2nd commander to droping supplies only... medpack,ammunition,etc.
Is having a 2nd commander ultimately always going to be detrimental, because that is one less soldier on the battlefield. (I take my figures on that the game will be balanced around 12v12 gameplay.)
<!--quoteo(post=1704753:date=Apr 11 2009, 05:21 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Apr 11 2009, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll go into multiple commanders at some point but the takeaway is that the commander on both sides will be less about being a total authority and more about being a different character "class". I loved the leadership qualities of an authoritarian Commander in NS, but I believe that the overall game will be better if the role is designed to allow multiples to function together with stepping on each other's toes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hence the name...
My current problem is that I'm just worried with NS2 in general. I like the idea of the team adding in more RTS elements as NS1 is very basic in terms of what a commander can do. Still I feel you're going the wrong way around adding this RTS element into the game. Adding more upgrades/buildings/orders and maybe a style of getting resources is one thing, but changing how the game works nearly completely is extremely risky.
People say NS1 was a hard game to learn but from what I'm seeing NS2 looks extremly complicated. I mean the fact is players are going to come to the game open it up, realise it doesn't work like most RTS games (like NS1 does) and will have to learn/figure out the tech routes ASWELL as the alien counters and the original buildings and upgrades.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
I was going to quote a bunch of people, but I've decided I haven't given the idea enough time to soak in.
I'm worried about marines being too "turtley" as <b>tjosan</b> says, but I also see that marines should not be able to fully control large swatches of territory absolutely.
I'm worried about the idea being too complex as <b>ChromeAngel</b> suggests, but I could see visually cues sufficiently directing the player. On this note I recommend the lights to flicker in "waves" to signal which room the disturbance is coming from.
And I'm seeing the potential balance difficulties <b>Crispy</b> outlines(the devil you know vs the devil you don't), but I also see some of the potential advantages of the system since you have to rebalance everything anyway.
Some random comments: I'm glad you're keeping the resnodes. I was afraid you would limit the teching to "tech points" and decrease the strategy depth in the direction by making the maps smaller.
I think the removal of the phase gate is the right direction. Squad spawning really tends to make the obsolete and make for faster/more dynamic gameplay. <!--quoteo(post=1704733:date=Apr 11 2009, 01:50 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Apr 11 2009, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->QFT<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1704758:date=Apr 11 2009, 02:54 PM:name=Zamma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zamma @ Apr 11 2009, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hence the name... My current problem is that I'm just worried with NS2 in general. I like the idea of the team adding in more RTS elements as NS1 is very basic in terms of what a commander can do. Still I feel you're going the wrong way around adding this RTS element into the game. Adding more upgrades/buildings/orders and maybe a style of getting resources is one thing, but changing how the game works nearly completely is extremely risky.
People say NS1 was a hard game to learn but from what I'm seeing NS2 looks extremly complicated. I mean the fact is players are going to come to the game open it up, realise it doesn't work like most RTS games (like NS1 does) and will have to learn/figure out the tech routes ASWELL as the alien counters and the original buildings and upgrades.
tjosan and buggeh have made some great points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which can be solved with either a really good manual, or ingame tutorial. Make sure when the manual is printed that it is as close to final release version as possible.
I'm all for both, but if I were to choose one it would be the manual. A good tutorial that completly explains the game is alot more time consuming than typing up some text lines and paragraphs. (Assuming the tutorial the player actually has camera control, and is not just a model slideshow.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll go into multiple commanders at some point but the takeaway is that the commander on both sides will be <b>less about being a total authority</b> and <b>more about being a different character "class"</b>. I loved the leadership qualities of an authoritarian Commander in NS, but I believe that the overall game will be better if the role is designed to allow multiples to function together with <b>stepping on each other's toes</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My jaw literally dropped when I saw this. The marine commander <b>WILL NOT BE IN COMMAND</b>?? Trying to be civil here, but <b>WTF</b> are you talking about?
I'm guessing that this is a move to make the game more streamlined and accessible to new players, but you are talking about taking away the most important element of a commander, <b>THE POWER TO COMMAND</b>. I just can't believe this. Commanding, by definition, is the act of <b>stepping on everyone's toes</b> in order to get a job done.
I've spent a lot of time trying to understand why people who <b>don't use a mic</b> jump into the chair at the very beginning of a game. It is my belief that the #1 most important attribute of a commander is the ability to <i>communicate sound strategies and orders efficiently</i> to the grunts, which is next to impossible without a mic.
If I understand this quote correctly, the NS2 marine team will not even need <b>orders from the commander?</b>
This is your game, and you have <i>every</i> right to do <b>whatever</b> you want with it. But, for god's sake, don't <b>castrate</b> the commander and relegate him to a purely <b>logistical</b> role.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited April 2009
If multiple commanders are implemented, it should work like this:
1) Primary commander - is able to do everything. All overall strategy, research, and medding/in field ammo, weld bot, and whatever else he can do.
2) Secondary commander - This role is unlocked after Tier2 is reached. The second command chair can be unlocked by the primary comm to alleviate some of his responsibilities if he chooses. This would likely be "medding, ammo drops, general squad maintenance stuff.
3) Third commander - once Tier3 is reached, this would alleviate most intelligence operations. Scanning, weld bot control, monitoring res nodes and being able to send informational hud alerts to marines/other commanders.
Essentially all 3 roles (if there are 3) would do 1\3 of the commanders workload if needed. I can see where this would help newer players who aren't very good commanders. It would all have to be very simple and intuitive though, so it could be picked up quickly. The idea is that it slowly introduces new players to commanding, without everybody screaming and voting them out.
Of course the primary commander would have ultimate control, and could eject either of these auxilliary commanders at any time if he chooses. Essentially it would make the job easier for newbie commanders by splitting up responsibilities. Some kind of solution would have to be worked out so you don't have 3 commanders over voicecomm. Maybe once your second and third commanders enter in, they are locked to 'command chat' voicecomm only so its collaborative between the commanders, but only the primary commander can still voicecomm with the entire team and his command crew.
Sounds kind of cool to me, and if implemented correctly would get more people less afraid to command over time.
<!--quoteo(post=1704767:date=Apr 11 2009, 04:38 PM:name=FrostFire626)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FrostFire626 @ Apr 11 2009, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I understand this quote correctly, the NS2 marine team will not even need <b>orders from the commander?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The commander gives orders to marines in NS2.
My jaw literally dropped when I saw this. The marine commander <b>WILL NOT BE IN COMMAND</b>?? Trying to be civil here, but <b>WTF</b> are you talking about?
I'm guessing that this is a move to make the game more streamlined and accessible to new players, but you are talking about taking away the most important element of a commander, <b>THE POWER TO COMMAND</b>. I just can't believe this. Commanding, by definition, is the act of <b>stepping on everyone's toes</b> in order to get a job done.
I've spent a lot of time trying to understand why people who <b>don't use a mic</b> jump into the chair at the very beginning of a game. It is my belief that the #1 most important attribute of a commander is the ability to <i>communicate sound strategies and orders efficiently</i> to the grunts, which is next to impossible without a mic.
If I understand this quote correctly, the NS2 marine team will not even need <b>orders from the commander?</b>
This is your game, and you have <i>every</i> right to do <b>whatever</b> you want with it. But, for god's sake, don't <b>castrate</b> the commander and relegate him to a purely <b>logistical</b> role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without going too far off in another debate entirely, I never thought the commander actually had any 'control.' The <i>team</i> makes the strategy and the commander just simply implements it. How many times did you run off randomly, and call for a node? How many times did the players on the field whine for jetpacks until they were researched? How many times did a marine see an opportunity for a ninja phase so he called for one? Back in the hay-day of NS I rarely saw commanders who ran their team. Instead, the team ran the commander.
Granted, the commander is a member of the team and has a say in strategy too but pretending that the commander is the sole strategist on the team does not make for a fun gameplay model. Why? Because when the other members of the team start forming the strategy, which inevitably happens, the commander is stripped of their duties and they become nothing more than baby sitters. I'd rather see a gameplay model that recognizes this and chooses the make the commander valuable in some other way.
Ok so here's my take, I skipped a lot of the posts so I hope I don't double up.
The idea itself sounds really good. I myself enjoyed the company of heros approach to supply and I think it can be moved to NS by all means. I think the idea of having a room attached to a grid makes sense and is a useable idea. Of course then the skulks hitting the towers are a constant worry and they must be looked after at all times to avoid disruption. This makes fades more useful in that role as well once the nodes are electrified.
My concern however is a static issue and the usual choke point problem. In a lot of setups like this the map comes down to 2 spots usually, a water crossing, choke point, hallway, what have you, where the to sides collide from thier starts. The randomness to NS2 would help however depending on map design you would end up with standard rooms needed to take right away to work towards that would control the map (Mess hall). Taking over hive locations, botteling up the opponents, etc. It's always tough to avoid but that is my concren in the end. I imagine after a lot of play testing it can be easily worked around.
The next thing I read is on multiple commanders. This is normal in some games I run because I'll have 1 or 2 sub commanders (Sargents) running the marines next to them. This is tough when you have 1 unified voice channel. Game wise there's not much you can do really to seperate all the calls coming in. However what does worry me is as a commander not handing out weapons. This to me really takes away from the leverage you need as a commander to get things done in pub games. Without the threat of not giving someone the equipment they want you need some other incentive to get people to follow your orders.
My next concern following that is marines buying thier own weapons. What do they cost? Where do they get the money/res? Is it taken from a pool? Does this mean the rambo that keeps buying a shotgun and running off and getting ambushed uses WAY more res then everyone else thus preventing research? How will it work? Like NS 1 when aliens all got a bit at a time very slowly?
I know over time all this can be sorted out but that's my take on it as of right now. I think over all it's a great idea and approach and I do miss the hour plus games I used to run as a commander bringing a team back from the brink of defeat. Teamwork wins the day on both sides. However I have always said the Marines are only as good as thier Commander, but thier Commander is only as good as his Marines.
Right as I began reading the update today I knew where you were going with it and was very excited. This seems like it will make the gameplay far more dynamic than it was in NS1. Awesome work Charlie and Max!
I think you guys are overplaying the complexity of this idea. It's really not that complex. Download the company of heroes demo if you've never played it to see how linked resource sectors work. It's very intuitive as long as you have a visual indicator of the linkages on a minimap or whatever.
There are a lot of questions in the air and as we know things will be tested thoroughly. A bit scared NS2 will be to player friendly compared to NS1. I'm just looking at the simple map and what to me sounds look a system with less tactical options from a marines standpoint.
One can look at marines movement as starting in the base of a tree and branching out. Cutting of a branch will stop support to it's leafs and so on.. I like the idea of multiple command "chairs". As I understand the command network will be safer for the marines that way. If you choose to play with only one commander and his original chair is taken down someone can jump in at any of the other chairs and take control from there until the commander spawns in again. Wondering if it would be a good to make the commander merge with the command network. That way, taking down the original chair won't stop the "commanding" as he will be alive within the network.
I like the idea of more then one commander too. If you make one supreme commander. Any bonuses other then more safety? He or they seem to have less work to do now. What do they do except research & build at less places then before? It seems it will most certainly become more of a frontline game. Can they still drop medpacks in the field?
Most of use loved the fact that the marines could set up small bases far behind enemy lines. Looking at the map the main fights will almost always be around 2 points that are very close to each other. I'm not sure if people have mentioned Double Res. A big part of NS1 was that fight or the early rush for it. Now it sounds like a slow crawl. My guess you are thinking of making the dynamic infestation to something similar as the power grid. So that the aliens can't build in non infested chambers. Meaning the alien commander controls the flow of infestations.
Back to the map example: All the rooms look very even in size and so those the corridors who all look very short and wide. It looks like the new siege tank can get everywhere. I for one like long, narrow, messy corridors behind enemy lines. Even when I'm all alone and have a fade coming in fast from the other end. Giving him some pistol before I pull out my shotgun when nice and close.
I liked Crispy's Power Generator idea of having a choice of structures too build on a tech node. A second Command Station in NS was always a defensive option (and very optional at that). Perhaps the alternate tech structure could be more offensive?
ie : Command Station 2 unlocks: lt-commander, armor upgrades, welder, exo armor, motion tracking and eletrified structures Offensive Tech unlocks: weapon upgrades, miniguns, grenade launchers, jet packs and phase gates (nukes of the commander to drop?)
OK maybe not all of those on one structure, but you see where i'm going. Both flavors of tech structure would provide power to the grid, however they would provide other (secondary) benifits, that could be the keystone to marine stratergies. The prototype lab from NS always felt kind of tacked on and out of place this could bring it's successor more in-line with marine statergy.
3rd option : Area denial, a big old hard to kill lump of metal intended to be built on tech nodes deep in enemy territory, to delay their capture of the tech node.
[edit] Dang! I just twigged why you cant have a non-command structure on a tech node. If your primary CC gets killed you would have no way to replace it... [/edit]
<!--quoteo(post=1704756:date=Apr 11 2009, 11:43 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Apr 11 2009, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, there is no requirement for a 2nd Commander, ever. You can build a second Command Station and build in that room normally. They don't have to be linked either. Rooms with a built Command Station in them are always powered (until that Command Station is destroyed).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe it's due to the power grid layout you have shown to us - and the real maps will be much larger with two or three times the resource nodes between tech points? - but what's the point in a power chain system if marines can just move to tech points, build their CC/RT there and move on. These tech points would be independend of each other and most neighbouring rooms would be connected to at least two tech points. I just don't see any tactical opportunities to break a power chain to slow/deny marine progress. I don't think this will break the game because NS1 works like that anyway but I just don't get it why even implement something like that if you can just pop a CC at a tech point making the whole chain system pointless.
Example given: Marines start in the top center tech point and capture the left and right tech points in the middle. All adjacent RT rooms in the middle/upper part of the map but one are directly linked to a tech point thus making them unbreakable. If this is the way it is supposed to work marines would always strive to capture these tech points => always the same choke points in a map limiting the tactical choices.
That being said I would suggest to at least require a power chain while building a new CC. Aliens could break a power chain before the CC is done building and destroy it.
Still early days, and I haven't read the above posts, but some thoughts:
1. The CoH-style resource points-must-be-linked is great: it concentrates gameplay into adjacent rooms rather than any old random room. That said:
2. Given the aliens native ability to move fast I can see it being a logistical nightmare for marines trying to attack when losing any early resource will cut off their supply. In NS1 you may be willing to lose a double res node to concentrate on a push- at least your other nodes give you res. In NS2 it seems losing an early node with disable your economy. CoH fixes this by making most units that can kill secured res points slow moving(tanks, squads), and the fast/ninja units (bikes, snipers) can't damage the secured res point. Maybe skulks shouldn't be able to kill RTs in NS2 else they can just use a vent system/crawl space to move into an early node room and take it out (giving a vanilla tier 1 unit the ability to eliminate the marine economy).
3. Multiple commanders- wary about this! I don't know exactly what commanders can do in NS2. Both medspamming the same marine could be too effective or waste too much res. Assuming commanders still determine upgrade paths then conflicting build orders seems a glaring problem, and wholly unfair if a dedicated commander saves for an expensive upgrade then a grunt hops in a spare CC and researches a cheap, ineffective upgrade.
4. Kudos for adding heavier RTS elements. As a dedicated commander in the competitive scene, beyond the early game plan and build order I was often reduced to a medspamming nanny.
<!--quoteo(post=1704776:date=Apr 11 2009, 08:36 PM:name=aegix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aegix @ Apr 11 2009, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you guys are overplaying the complexity of this idea. It's really not that complex. Download the company of heroes demo if you've never played it to see how linked resource sectors work. It's very intuitive as long as you have a visual indicator of the linkages on a minimap or whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I couldn't agree more. Please, try out the free demo, I found it on Steam, run the tutorial or the provided single player map and play around with it, then imagine the germans as Kharaa, the allies as Marines, throw in some biotech/cybertech weapons and imagine yourself down there in the dirty. I found Company of Heroes incredibly easy to pick up but deep if you started looking for it, especially in attack/counter attack/ambush/flanking... I haven't played the multiplayer but I get the sense it must be just crazy fun from a Commander RTS perspective.
Or alternatively, I suppose you could see what Dawn of War 2 is brewing, I have been told they are similar in some respects of the territory structure and it might give you more of the feel of TSA Marine vs Kharaa.
I am very excited for this turn of events, if implemented well, this will be a huge boon to NS2 gameplay. I have confidence in UnknownWorlds that they will be able to implement this well and with their examples inspire a community map frenzy. This is WAR! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Comments
Sometimes the right restrictions lead to more choices once the strategic landscape has had time to settle in.
And you still can build anywhere, just not res nodes (just like NS1), hives, or comm chairs. I also think the total effect of node chaining on structures, economy, and tech has yet to be decided.
MSD/MDS, a sensory chamber at hive 1 at all, where you put the chambers depends on how or if you want to defend the hive and a tf at all except for very certain circumstances leads to eject. Nice try though! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
This is the whole point! The resource nodes will be tougher to kill to balance this out. Also, when a node is being hit, all the lights and things being affected by it will be flicking dramatically so you'll know very well it's under attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now i get it ! but still i am concerned about how this all end up.
I actually agree; if I had known Charlie was going to use my topdown paint-filled layout so soon I'd have cleaned it up a bit! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> What you're seeing there is the <i>first</i> pass block-in interpretation of the layout "archetype" assembled on the left. We chose that particular archetype because we believed it to be one of the stronger ones created, and a "safe" one with which to develop the power grid system. It's messier than I'd like, even for as early as it is, but handles the important first-pass questions of timing/spacing, and if this system will even work, and can be rapidly updated and changed to work with the system as it develops.
When I put all the layout ideas together Charlie mentioned writing a dev blog covering their development... I think I'll put that together this weekend and see about getting it posted. Hopefully it'll help you guys see how the system applies to different layout styles.
Aliens being able to knock out the resource grid but Marines can't, is this...
Marines <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> have ranged weaponry and Aliens <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> are cute and plushy and like to gnaw on your ankles mostly.
(The intent of that sentence, is that, Marines have the "upperhand" when played right.)
When I put all the layout ideas together Charlie mentioned writing a dev blog covering their development... I think I'll put that together this weekend and see about getting it posted. Hopefully it'll help you guys see how the system applies to different layout styles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough - I guess it just got taken as gospel once it was put in a news post. I'd be very interested in seeing some map layouts that you're thinking of.
Now that you talk about it as more of a test map for the power grid mechanic, though, I can kind of see what you mean. It's simple, covers all the features within the power grid system, and is fair balance-wise. (the balance being necessary to make sure the grid itself works fairly, I suppose) Makes me think of the test map for the original UT's multi-team CTF mod. Just 4 rooms in a square with each room having one hallway to all the others. But for testing, it worked.
Having some special buildings that do not need the power grid at all or having a portable power source (like others and myself suggested) would be crucial to make the gameplay more exciting I guess, but even without it this so called "restriction" makes the game much more interesting than it was before. If NS2 is fully packed with those nice new and intuitiv ideas I guess it will be very very veeeeery awesome <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I can't wait for another post like this to reveal some more stuff
Hm yeah thats kind of sad to remove those personal relocating, but I guess this way there is a much more intense fight over the "good" tech points and no "endless" searching for some hidden relocation ... And I guess the benefits overwhelm the bad sides<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what you mean about "CC placements", but do you mean relocations? You can still relocate if you want, but you are limited to any place with a tech point.
From the fact that only two "nodes" have both tech points and res nodes, it looks as though these are starting locations, and if there are only 2 on each map, that hardly seems dynamic.
The multiple commander concept will definitely need some further explaining.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oops - yeah those two locations are the marine start and alien start locations. We support random start locations, but there is enough other work to do that right that I have a feeling that all of our v1.0 maps will have fixed starting locations.
I'll go into multiple commanders at some point but the takeaway is that the commander on both sides will be less about being a total authority and more about being a different character "class". I loved the leadership qualities of an authoritarian Commander in NS, but I believe that the overall game will be better if the role is designed to allow multiples to function together with stepping on each other's toes. I
Also, the marines should continue to tech without needing to capture additional tech points. Similar to NS1, marines build up in their base while aliens capture the remaining 2 tech points for upgrading. This keeps each race unique.
I don't care for the linked energy system because it basically limits strategy. Part of the fun of NS1 is making forward attack points and linking them with phase gates. Perhaps the aliens can have a similar system like the Zerg Nydas Canal or other warp system. However, a direct energy line link really seems to kill originality.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We would love to do this but getting the audio/visuals right for a dynamic hive room is very tricky. Ie, we would have to programmatically make a hive room feel totally alieny with code. That's a big challenge and one we might save for after v1.0.
We're trying to do this as much as possible (with DI, etc.) but committing to it for v1.0 is a big risk.
We're trying to do this as much as possible (with DI, etc.) but committing to it for v1.0 is a big risk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since fixed start locations look like a possibility, can we make the start locations for the initial hive/command chair have a inherit advantage on the map unique to each side.
I.E.
Alien start hive would have alot of natural positions (vents and the like) to ambush from, where as Marine start not so much (Marines get height advantage?). The reason being is that I dont want the starting Tech Nodes be so uniform that they are easy to take over in the first 3 minutes of the game, because then the game just turns into who rushes better. You see this alot in RTS games where one side(or more) is inbalanced, with the end result being the game is decided within the first few minutes of the game because the other person had a better build/rush strategy.
(Just added this.)
I prefer maps with each room is unique to the next (but go with the theme of the map), to just "Tournament" style maps like in RTS games. That is what I am getting at.
Fyi, Commanders don't drop weapons for players any more. Players on the ground buy their own weapons at an armory. The commander is responsible for researching weapons though.
Also, there is no requirement for a 2nd Commander, ever. You can build a second Command Station and build in that room normally. They don't have to be linked either. Rooms with a built Command Station in them are always powered (until that Command Station is destroyed).
Also, there is no requirement for a 2nd Commander, ever. You can build a second Command Station and build in that room normally. They don't have to be linked either. Rooms with a built Command Station in them are always powered (until that Command Station is destroyed).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have a system like Left 4 Dead, where if more than 50% of the team votes out a Commander, he is temporarily relieved of command for say like, 5 minutes or so. Also including a votekick option as well like Left 4 Dead would be good to, but make that like 75% of the players on your own team.
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Here's the problem people are worried about when it comes to a 2nd commander:
Do they share resources?
We need to know how the resource model is possibly going to work to determine if this is okay or not.
Can they override each other's actions?
Can they make a permanent choice without consulting the orginal commander, thus making their team lose?
(Research more armor when weapons upgrades are needed.)
Suggestion: Limit 2nd commander to droping supplies only... medpack,ammunition,etc.
Is having a 2nd commander ultimately always going to be detrimental, because that is one less soldier on the battlefield.
(I take my figures on that the game will be balanced around 12v12 gameplay.)
Hence the name...
My current problem is that I'm just worried with NS2 in general. I like the idea of the team adding in more RTS elements as NS1 is very basic in terms of what a commander can do. Still I feel you're going the wrong way around adding this RTS element into the game. Adding more upgrades/buildings/orders and maybe a style of getting resources is one thing, but changing how the game works nearly completely is extremely risky.
People say NS1 was a hard game to learn but from what I'm seeing NS2 looks extremly complicated. I mean the fact is players are going to come to the game open it up, realise it doesn't work like most RTS games (like NS1 does) and will have to learn/figure out the tech routes ASWELL as the alien counters and the original buildings and upgrades.
tjosan and buggeh have made some great points.
I'm worried about marines being too "turtley" as <b>tjosan</b> says, but I also see that marines should not be able to fully control large swatches of territory absolutely.
I'm worried about the idea being too complex as <b>ChromeAngel</b> suggests, but I could see visually cues sufficiently directing the player. On this note I recommend the lights to flicker in "waves" to signal which room the disturbance is coming from.
And I'm seeing the potential balance difficulties <b>Crispy</b> outlines(the devil you know vs the devil you don't), but I also see some of the potential advantages of the system since you have to rebalance everything anyway.
Some random comments:
I'm glad you're keeping the resnodes. I was afraid you would limit the teching to "tech points" and decrease the strategy depth in the direction by making the maps smaller.
I think the removal of the phase gate is the right direction. Squad spawning really tends to make the obsolete and make for faster/more dynamic gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1704733:date=Apr 11 2009, 01:50 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Apr 11 2009, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->QFT<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My current problem is that I'm just worried with NS2 in general. I like the idea of the team adding in more RTS elements as NS1 is very basic in terms of what a commander can do. Still I feel you're going the wrong way around adding this RTS element into the game. Adding more upgrades/buildings/orders and maybe a style of getting resources is one thing, but changing how the game works nearly completely is extremely risky.
People say NS1 was a hard game to learn but from what I'm seeing NS2 looks extremly complicated. I mean the fact is players are going to come to the game open it up, realise it doesn't work like most RTS games (like NS1 does) and will have to learn/figure out the tech routes ASWELL as the alien counters and the original buildings and upgrades.
tjosan and buggeh have made some great points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which can be solved with either a really good manual, or ingame tutorial. Make sure when the manual is printed that it is as close to final release version as possible.
I'm all for both, but if I were to choose one it would be the manual. A good tutorial that completly explains the game is alot more time consuming than typing up some text lines and paragraphs. (Assuming the tutorial the player actually has camera control, and is not just a model slideshow.)
Wait...
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->WHAT!?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
My jaw literally dropped when I saw this. The marine commander <b>WILL NOT BE IN COMMAND</b>?? Trying to be civil here, but <b>WTF</b> are you talking about?
I'm guessing that this is a move to make the game more streamlined and accessible to new players, but you are talking about taking away the most important element of a commander, <b>THE POWER TO COMMAND</b>. I just can't believe this. Commanding, by definition, is the act of <b>stepping on everyone's toes</b> in order to get a job done.
I've spent a lot of time trying to understand why people who <b>don't use a mic</b> jump into the chair at the very beginning of a game. It is my belief that the #1 most important attribute of a commander is the ability to <i>communicate sound strategies and orders efficiently</i> to the grunts, which is next to impossible without a mic.
If I understand this quote correctly, the NS2 marine team will not even need <b>orders from the commander?</b>
This is your game, and you have <i>every</i> right to do <b>whatever</b> you want with it. But, for god's sake, don't <b>castrate</b> the commander and relegate him to a purely <b>logistical</b> role.
1) Primary commander - is able to do everything. All overall strategy, research, and medding/in field ammo, weld bot, and whatever else he can do.
2) Secondary commander - This role is unlocked after Tier2 is reached. The second command chair can be unlocked by the primary comm to alleviate some of his responsibilities if he chooses. This would likely be "medding, ammo drops, general squad maintenance stuff.
3) Third commander - once Tier3 is reached, this would alleviate most intelligence operations. Scanning, weld bot control, monitoring res nodes and being able to send informational hud alerts to marines/other commanders.
Essentially all 3 roles (if there are 3) would do 1\3 of the commanders workload if needed. I can see where this would help newer players who aren't very good commanders. It would all have to be very simple and intuitive though, so it could be picked up quickly. The idea is that it slowly introduces new players to commanding, without everybody screaming and voting them out.
Of course the primary commander would have ultimate control, and could eject either of these auxilliary commanders at any time if he chooses. Essentially it would make the job easier for newbie commanders by splitting up responsibilities. Some kind of solution would have to be worked out so you don't have 3 commanders over voicecomm. Maybe once your second and third commanders enter in, they are locked to 'command chat' voicecomm only so its collaborative between the commanders, but only the primary commander can still voicecomm with the entire team and his command crew.
Sounds kind of cool to me, and if implemented correctly would get more people less afraid to command over time.
The commander gives orders to marines in NS2.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->WHAT!?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
My jaw literally dropped when I saw this. The marine commander <b>WILL NOT BE IN COMMAND</b>?? Trying to be civil here, but <b>WTF</b> are you talking about?
I'm guessing that this is a move to make the game more streamlined and accessible to new players, but you are talking about taking away the most important element of a commander, <b>THE POWER TO COMMAND</b>. I just can't believe this. Commanding, by definition, is the act of <b>stepping on everyone's toes</b> in order to get a job done.
I've spent a lot of time trying to understand why people who <b>don't use a mic</b> jump into the chair at the very beginning of a game. It is my belief that the #1 most important attribute of a commander is the ability to <i>communicate sound strategies and orders efficiently</i> to the grunts, which is next to impossible without a mic.
If I understand this quote correctly, the NS2 marine team will not even need <b>orders from the commander?</b>
This is your game, and you have <i>every</i> right to do <b>whatever</b> you want with it. But, for god's sake, don't <b>castrate</b> the commander and relegate him to a purely <b>logistical</b> role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without going too far off in another debate entirely, I never thought the commander actually had any 'control.' The <i>team</i> makes the strategy and the commander just simply implements it. How many times did you run off randomly, and call for a node? How many times did the players on the field whine for jetpacks until they were researched? How many times did a marine see an opportunity for a ninja phase so he called for one? Back in the hay-day of NS I rarely saw commanders who ran their team. Instead, the team ran the commander.
Granted, the commander is a member of the team and has a say in strategy too but pretending that the commander is the sole strategist on the team does not make for a fun gameplay model. Why? Because when the other members of the team start forming the strategy, which inevitably happens, the commander is stripped of their duties and they become nothing more than baby sitters. I'd rather see a gameplay model that recognizes this and chooses the make the commander valuable in some other way.
The idea itself sounds really good. I myself enjoyed the company of heros approach to supply and I think it can be moved to NS by all means. I think the idea of having a room attached to a grid makes sense and is a useable idea. Of course then the skulks hitting the towers are a constant worry and they must be looked after at all times to avoid disruption. This makes fades more useful in that role as well once the nodes are electrified.
My concern however is a static issue and the usual choke point problem. In a lot of setups like this the map comes down to 2 spots usually, a water crossing, choke point, hallway, what have you, where the to sides collide from thier starts. The randomness to NS2 would help however depending on map design you would end up with standard rooms needed to take right away to work towards that would control the map (Mess hall). Taking over hive locations, botteling up the opponents, etc. It's always tough to avoid but that is my concren in the end. I imagine after a lot of play testing it can be easily worked around.
The next thing I read is on multiple commanders. This is normal in some games I run because I'll have 1 or 2 sub commanders (Sargents) running the marines next to them. This is tough when you have 1 unified voice channel. Game wise there's not much you can do really to seperate all the calls coming in. However what does worry me is as a commander not handing out weapons. This to me really takes away from the leverage you need as a commander to get things done in pub games. Without the threat of not giving someone the equipment they want you need some other incentive to get people to follow your orders.
My next concern following that is marines buying thier own weapons. What do they cost? Where do they get the money/res? Is it taken from a pool? Does this mean the rambo that keeps buying a shotgun and running off and getting ambushed uses WAY more res then everyone else thus preventing research? How will it work? Like NS 1 when aliens all got a bit at a time very slowly?
I know over time all this can be sorted out but that's my take on it as of right now. I think over all it's a great idea and approach and I do miss the hour plus games I used to run as a commander bringing a team back from the brink of defeat. Teamwork wins the day on both sides. However I have always said the Marines are only as good as thier Commander, but thier Commander is only as good as his Marines.
butmaybe its straying too far from ns1
Hope it works out well; it looks very cool.
There are a lot of questions in the air and as we know things will be tested thoroughly. A bit scared NS2 will be to player friendly compared to NS1. I'm just looking at the simple map and what to me sounds look a system with less tactical options from a marines standpoint.
One can look at marines movement as starting in the base of a tree and branching out. Cutting of a branch will stop support to it's leafs and so on.. I like the idea of multiple command "chairs". As I understand the command network will be safer for the marines that way. If you choose to play with only one commander and his original chair is taken down someone can jump in at any of the other chairs and take control from there until the commander spawns in again. Wondering if it would be a good to make the commander merge with the command network. That way, taking down the original chair won't stop the "commanding" as he will be alive within the network.
I like the idea of more then one commander too. If you make one supreme commander. Any bonuses other then more safety? He or they seem to have less work to do now. What do they do except research & build at less places then before? It seems it will most certainly become more of a frontline game. Can they still drop medpacks in the field?
Most of use loved the fact that the marines could set up small bases far behind enemy lines. Looking at the map the main fights will almost always be around 2 points that are very close to each other. I'm not sure if people have mentioned Double Res. A big part of NS1 was that fight or the early rush for it. Now it sounds like a slow crawl. My guess you are thinking of making the dynamic infestation to something similar as the power grid. So that the aliens can't build in non infested chambers. Meaning the alien commander controls the flow of infestations.
Back to the map example: All the rooms look very even in size and so those the corridors who all look very short and wide. It looks like the new siege tank can get everywhere. I for one like long, narrow, messy corridors behind enemy lines. Even when I'm all alone and have a fade coming in fast from the other end. Giving him some pistol before I pull out my shotgun when nice and close.
Looking forward to hearing more about this!!
ie : Command Station 2 unlocks: lt-commander, armor upgrades, welder, exo armor, motion tracking and eletrified structures
Offensive Tech unlocks: weapon upgrades, miniguns, grenade launchers, jet packs and phase gates (nukes of the commander to drop?)
OK maybe not all of those on one structure, but you see where i'm going. Both flavors of tech structure would provide power to the grid, however they would provide other (secondary) benifits, that could be the keystone to marine stratergies. The prototype lab from NS always felt kind of tacked on and out of place this could bring it's successor more in-line with marine statergy.
3rd option : Area denial, a big old hard to kill lump of metal intended to be built on tech nodes deep in enemy territory, to delay their capture of the tech node.
[edit]
Dang! I just twigged why you cant have a non-command structure on a tech node. If your primary CC gets killed you would have no way to replace it...
[/edit]
Maybe it's due to the power grid layout you have shown to us - and the real maps will be much larger with two or three times the resource nodes between tech points? - but what's the point in a power chain system if marines can just move to tech points, build their CC/RT there and move on. These tech points would be independend of each other and most neighbouring rooms would be connected to at least two tech points. I just don't see any tactical opportunities to break a power chain to slow/deny marine progress. I don't think this will break the game because NS1 works like that anyway but I just don't get it why even implement something like that if you can just pop a CC at a tech point making the whole chain system pointless.
Example given:
Marines start in the top center tech point and capture the left and right tech points in the middle. All adjacent RT rooms in the middle/upper part of the map but one are directly linked to a tech point thus making them unbreakable. If this is the way it is supposed to work marines would always strive to capture these tech points => always the same choke points in a map limiting the tactical choices.
That being said I would suggest to at least require a power chain while building a new CC. Aliens could break a power chain before the CC is done building and destroy it.
1. The CoH-style resource points-must-be-linked is great: it concentrates gameplay into adjacent rooms rather than any old random room. That said:
2. Given the aliens native ability to move fast I can see it being a logistical nightmare for marines trying to attack when losing any early resource will cut off their supply. In NS1 you may be willing to lose a double res node to concentrate on a push- at least your other nodes give you res. In NS2 it seems losing an early node with disable your economy. CoH fixes this by making most units that can kill secured res points slow moving(tanks, squads), and the fast/ninja units (bikes, snipers) can't damage the secured res point. Maybe skulks shouldn't be able to kill RTs in NS2 else they can just use a vent system/crawl space to move into an early node room and take it out (giving a vanilla tier 1 unit the ability to eliminate the marine economy).
3. Multiple commanders- wary about this! I don't know exactly what commanders can do in NS2. Both medspamming the same marine could be too effective or waste too much res. Assuming commanders still determine upgrade paths then conflicting build orders seems a glaring problem, and wholly unfair if a dedicated commander saves for an expensive upgrade then a grunt hops in a spare CC and researches a cheap, ineffective upgrade.
4. Kudos for adding heavier RTS elements. As a dedicated commander in the competitive scene, beyond the early game plan and build order I was often reduced to a medspamming nanny.
I couldn't agree more. Please, try out the free demo, I found it on Steam, run the tutorial or the provided single player map and play around with it, then imagine the germans as Kharaa, the allies as Marines, throw in some biotech/cybertech weapons and imagine yourself down there in the dirty. I found Company of Heroes incredibly easy to pick up but deep if you started looking for it, especially in attack/counter attack/ambush/flanking... I haven't played the multiplayer but I get the sense it must be just crazy fun from a Commander RTS perspective.
Or alternatively, I suppose you could see what Dawn of War 2 is brewing, I have been told they are similar in some respects of the territory structure and it might give you more of the feel of TSA Marine vs Kharaa.
<a href="http://www.relic.com/games/" target="_blank">http://www.relic.com/games/</a>
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I am very excited for this turn of events, if implemented well, this will be a huge boon to NS2 gameplay. I have confidence in UnknownWorlds that they will be able to implement this well and with their examples inspire a community map frenzy. This is WAR! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />