I don't know if I like this idea. It seemed really cool when I first read it, but a great deal of the fun of playing Marines in NS1 was the stealth aspect. Sneaking into some vent or elevator shaft to build a last ditch CC was one of the things that <i>stayed</i> scary and exciting even after you got used to the rest of the game. This could also often be fun for the aliens; they've just overrun the Marine base with all the stops pulled out, but the game's not over yet. It's time to go on the <i>hunt.</i> While this mechanic admittedly made things a little tough to balance, turning the marines into comeback kings especially on large servers, it made gameplay feel extremely appropriate to the theme and style of the game. Restricting the Marines to specific areas will take away some of what made NS such a competent rendering of the sci-fi tropes it contains, and requiring things to be connected to a CC to function will damage this stealth element even moreso.
That said, I recognize that NS2 was meant to be a different thing anyway. Since it was announced, the team has always said that NS was the first encounter, and NS2 is the war. So, it probably <i>should</i> have a different feel, and I'm certainly curious to see what direction the devs have chosen. If it doesn't work, I can always just hold out for somebody to make a "Classic" mod for NS2 anyway. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Just keep in mind that nothing is set in stone yet. Things will likely change as they're playtested. Game design is a very iterative process after all.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
sounds pretty cool, but will have to wait to see it in action before i make up my mind <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I like the fact that this leaves less "exploits" in the game
but at the same time i dislike that you don't get to do things like random spot relocations etc
overall though it sounds great <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> especially with the lights flickering etc and when you throw in welding up doors, or opening up new ones, its going to make a of interesting variations to gameplay and stratergies (which is a must to keep the game going long term)
Let me see if I understand this correctly (I'm still a bit confused):
1) The first CC and resource nodes are pre-placed. 2) Killing the resource node cuts power to the CC 3) To build new CCs, you will have to expand to resource points with resource nodes, and then place the CC. 4) If somebody cuts the power from the main base, this base will still be self-powered (as long as this resource node is active), but... 5) If this new resource node is destroyed, the new CC also loses power.
In effect, this means that you *can* have self-sustaining bases for marines, as long as you have both a CC and a resource node there (just as in the main base). However, you can't just arbitrarily place them; you'll have to get there by expanding in small steps. Correct?
I can't tell whether it's a good or bad idea yet. I think I like most of it, but there are issues. Whether those are big will be shown by playtesting, I'm sure.
Yeah can't say I am one to be thrilled about anything that limits freedom of gameplay, like this power grid system. I don't know if any of you have played the RTS game: Lord of The Rings: Battle for Middle Earth. But the first game in that series had only a set number of points in the map to put your base at or get extra resources. However in the second game, you could build anywhere and place your fortifications anywhere you saw fit like in Starcraft. I enjoyed the second game a lot more.
This seems to me to be the obvious thing to do when going with a second game, not going back and limiting the RTS freedom that we all enjoyed with NS 1. No one likes to babysit Rts, or sit there and bite on them. Many times a few good marine or alien players could earn their res by just killing a lot (think of the pro fade), instead of just guarding Rts. I just worry that the game will be too much about defending and structures in the same important rooms, than actually killing the other team players.
I always thought of NS to be 60% FPS and 40% RTS game but it seems now like it will be too much of the opposite.
<!--quoteo(post=1704641:date=Apr 11 2009, 01:40 AM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Apr 11 2009, 01:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just keep in mind that nothing is set in stone yet. Things will likely change as they're playtested. Game design is a very iterative process after all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I have faith in the team <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I just want to kill more aliens and marines than stationary structures! Rts already take like 30 seconds to chomp alone as a skulk, any longer and I wont ever go rt hunting again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Eek.. multiple command centres? I'd rather have the aliens and marines tech up differently...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the whole point! The resource nodes will be tougher to kill to balance this out. Also, when a node is being hit, all the lights and things being affected by it will be flicking dramatically so you'll know very well it's under attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well that's cool. I'm worried that this'll cause some sort of node rushes where the alien side doesn't care about the strategic order of which building to destroy and simply focus on the node. But I like the flickering lights idea.
I love the idea of bringing the notion of the 'nano-gridlock' more into the foreground. Hope this idea pans out into something tangible <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />.
For asymmetry, consider that aliens may thrive when they're spread out, while marines gain power when consolidated. So infestation can be separated and powerful, with many growth centers, but the marine grid should be connected. To facilitate this, perhaps tier 2 tech is only available while the 2 tech point centers are connected through res nodes? And all 3 for 3. Then to cut marine tech 3, aliens just have to sever a connection to make an opening for counterattack.
Looking at the 6x8 S map as it is, it looks as though there may not be many situations in which killing a res node will power down further areas, because there are multiple routes for the power to run from the various tech locations, so a tech consequence may be necessary.
With this map, it should be made possible through balance to have 3 main strategies: a defensive strategy where your 3 tech points are secured first before any central res, a balanced strat where you secure the near tech pt and central res, and an aggressive strat where you follow the 3 res nodes linearly out to the enemy's obvious 3rd tech point. Naturally, as marines, the aggressive strat opens you up to getting your supply line cut though you can more effectively deny the aliens their 3rd hive location.
However, without a tech consequence for supply lines, note that in the aggressive strat if your 2nd tech location is secured, if the supply line is cut it is irrelevant because the other nodes will still be powered.
I'm imagining interesting games where marines and aliens both have tech points and hives scattered around, due to some being destroyed on each side, with aliens attempting to attack marines from all sides and marines trying to build connections between their fractured bases. I think this is what Flayra is talking about when he says "dynamic".
Do not limit anything by points. Limit by areas or by whole map. e.g. red rectangles may show power grids. (any red point in this area can be) Why should I have to locate to a point instead of any point in an area.
interesting, i sort of liked the marine's ability to be 'disjoint' and mobile in ns1 though; able to set up relos or phase gate outposts anywhere and without connection. it was always the aliens who had to more or less creep forward and gain ground to set up at the hive locations. And i take it the alien starting location is the same every time now?
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1704651:date=Apr 10 2009, 09:30 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Apr 10 2009, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For asymmetry, consider that aliens may thrive when they're spread out, while marines gain power when consolidated. So infestation can be separated and powerful, with many growth centers, but the marine grid should be connected.
...
I'm imagining interesting games where marines and aliens both have tech points and hives scattered around, due to some being destroyed on each side, with aliens attempting to attack marines from all sides and marines trying to build connections between their fractured bases. I think this is what Flayra is talking about when he says "dynamic".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like it, not too many complains or questions yet because I'm sure you're still working out the quirky details. It worked well in CoH, but thats mainly because of multiple resources (3, in fact) and was implemented well, I trust UW to do the same here. I do however <i>love</i> the idea that rooms will change according to powered/unpowered status, and that lights can flicker if they're losing power. The whole concept of this I just find fantastic, but I've got a few questions about it <ul><li>Will rooms flicker if the power node/RT is damaged, or only while its taking damage?</li><li>Similarly, will the leaves dependant on the PN/RT root node flicker when the root node is under attack?</li><li>Does the mapper have full control over what lights turn on/off in power, and any other entities in the room? Like elevators, airlocks, doors etcetc</li><li>Are there 'levels' of damage available to the mapper? As the room loses more and more power can we make lights get dimmer and dimmer, more things going wrong. If you're using LUA I assume this is possible, but will just be an effort to get into the game. If we wont see it in the first release, is it a possibility for the future?</li></ul> My main concern here is that these details <i>need</i> to be sorted out before the first release. It will be a pain for the mappers to have to go back and set up all these details to keep the map looking sharp if something (like the last point) is added in a later version. Admittedly it will be a worthwhile pain, but annoying nonetheless <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1704645:date=Apr 10 2009, 07:06 PM:name=Morre)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Morre @ Apr 10 2009, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704645"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me see if I understand this correctly (I'm still a bit confused):
1) The first CC and resource nodes are pre-placed. 2) Killing the resource node cuts power to the CC 3) To build new CCs, you will have to expand to resource points with resource nodes, and then place the CC. 4) If somebody cuts the power from the main base, this base will still be self-powered (as long as this resource node is active), but... 5) If this new resource node is destroyed, the new CC also loses power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm understanding it correctly, the CC is the power supplier, Res nodes are power link-ups and res suppliers but the CC can operate on it's own. So like... <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Structures Structures ^^ ^^ CC^^>>>>>>>>Res Node^^>>>>>>Res Node<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> Also I would assume that if a chain that has a CC on either end loses a single Node, everything else remains powered as still connected somehow to a CC.
I am liking this though also a little nostalgic for classic NS1. Here's the thing tho, I have to remind myself that it's a new game and not a graphical NS1 update...but the whole thing's being done in a scripting language. Entirely possible for someone to remake NS1 as an NS2 mod, then we get the best of both worlds. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
One possible approach could be the use of more "mobile" bases that could be set up. Self powered (ie. NS1) but structures have fewer hit-points, dispense fewer ammo/weapon items (or a limited selection of), and/or deal less damage or have much slower firing rates (turrets, etc.) than the grid-bound versions. That way you could sneak a forward base sustaining a handful of marines in close to a hive when trying to expand the grid out isn't working. Could be a possible job for a 2nd commander having the mobile com chair serve as either a relay node or makeshift com chair depending on the situation.
Maybe the use of some fuel-cell-like driven generator. Something that you have to purchase (maybe at a fairly high-cost) that can be used to get essential structures up and running in a last-ditch recovery effort. After x-amount of time the generator shuts off (or x-amount of stored-up res is used up, maybe even re-chargeable once the RT or com chair is up and running again), but hopefully not before the res tower or 2nd command chair is rebuilt.
With dynamic infestations, will there be some sort of nanite-generator structure to possibly push back the infestation?
Explosive structures? I.e. the armory or anything else that might contain explosive or unstable materials inside. Something that could act as a deterrent to an all out "destroy everything" attack leaving some structures best left to be absorbed by the infestation, maybe even having them grant access to possible adv alien tech structures if captured (I guess that might require them to be prohibited from being recycled or recycled once the power grid is down).
<!--quoteo(post=1704635:date=Apr 10 2009, 04:35 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Apr 10 2009, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->QUOTE When the power goes out, infantry portals stop spawning in players, armories can't be used to buy or resupply, Command Stations become inactive, sentries power down, etc. These power regions will be drawn for the Commander, and will blink red when unpowered.
confuses me, because don't command stations give power?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oops - you're absolutely right. That was a mistake. Command Stations are never powered down, they are the "root". I've updated the blog entry.
<!--quoteo(post=1704663:date=Apr 11 2009, 01:11 AM:name=Shoot_me)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shoot_me @ Apr 11 2009, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One possible approach could be the use of more "mobile" bases that could be set up. Self powered (ie. NS1) but structures have fewer hit-points, dispense fewer ammo/weapon items (or a limited selection of), and/or deal less damage or have much slower firing rates (turrets, etc.) than the grid-bound versions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm digging this. The stealth and mobility options from NS1 remain available, but the comeback isn't automatic just because one guy managed to be sneaky enough. The team still has to earn it by reconnecting to the infrastructure to restore their offense. I hope the crew considers it.
I'm relieved to see the map layout as it is. There are still a plenty of routes considering the cuts in map size and complexity. Of course the direction and the division of the map are now a lot more obivious, but for a ~10 room map it looks terrific.
Oh and great job posting about the gameplay and new features. Anything gameplay related is always interesting.
Well I pretty sure this idea can be good, that's depend of the map's layout and players.
The diffrence between BattleField/Unreal Onslaught and this it's about the possibility to break a node at the start of a chain. BF and Unreal lock each node after the next one is taken. But they only start from one main Base. Here we can have three main base (Tech Point) for each team. Well we have to playtest it anyway ^^
Ho just a question, each maps have 6 Tech points, a team can build hive/CC at anyone of them? Or CC must go to the "marins tech points" and hive to the "hives tech point" ? Each time have a limit or Marins can build 6 CC with one per tech points?
<!--quoteo(post=1704651:date=Apr 10 2009, 09:30 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Apr 10 2009, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For asymmetry, consider that aliens may thrive when they're spread out, while marines gain power when consolidated. So infestation can be separated and powerful, with many growth centers, but the marine grid should be connected. To facilitate this, perhaps tier 2 tech is only available while the 2 tech point centers are connected through res nodes? And all 3 for 3. Then to cut marine tech 3, aliens just have to sever a connection to make an opening for counterattack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This made me think. In NS at the moment it is the opposite way. Marines are ranged, but need to always attack lest the khaara tech up too far. Since they are ranged, wherever a marine team is "marine territory" which moves. Set up a phase gate a while into the game and you have a separate marine base of power with "wild" territory inbetween. The Khaara on the other hand need to stop incursions out FROM "marine territory" into what is theirs by default by any means as if they reach your resources they have the advantage. At least if the marines are playing with standard cap and push tactics instead of trying to lock down the map like on certain public servers.
This new system would throw that around, making holding large swatches of territory more important for the marine team. Emphasising a defensive position for a team with primarily ranged weapons against a team of meleers, I fear, can never lead to good gameplay. And with both economy AND teching linked to territory this is what will happen, without fail.
So in conclusion, interesting idea indeed and it might pan out alright. But this further strengthens the fears I wrote of in the "nanogrid vs infestation" (or something) thread. I really hope you realise where you are taking the game, Flayra, and take note of what items in the design that makes this new gameplay tick so if you ever want to play around with it you know what to change.
Hi, I'm not sure I really understand your idea Sir Flayra, but in this way and if I don't mistake it could be interesting to have an upgradable RT for the marines.
The first level will be cheaper to build, have less HP, give few resource, allow to build in a smaller area and/or fewer structures types and only light up the room. Once upgraded, the RT will be full fonctionnal, and power the computers in the rooms making the flickering more dramatic when aliens attacks.
This should adds lot of possibility in the gameplay, help marines to keep the powerline up and allow them to be more offensive against the Kaara. The drawback... you will have to do a new model for this RT <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Sorry for my poor english <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
I'm a big fan of CoH multiplayer and I'd <i>very</i> much like to weigh in on this...
...but I guess I'll wait for the clarification that Flayra promised on the twitter. I don't like speaking up on something when I don't know <i>what</i> I'm talking about.
But will he make a new post or update this one...?
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I hope Aliens suffer the same problem as marines in this case (destroying one part breaks everything in front of it), otherwise it would be pretty biased as aliens could just attack the first CC and take down the entire base.
One thought would be to make previous structures somewhat invulnerable so that you MUST attack the most recent buildings in order to push forward.
Its a very nice idea for a better stategic feeling for the commanders and I bet that the alien infestation works similiar to this powergrid or at least in some way the same to have it balanced.
There is just one way that this could spoil the gameplay and that is when the alien Hive gets attacked and because of the port-to-your-squad ability the aliens can't stop the incoming marines and therefore their only chance is to knockout the ressource tower(s) that connect the powergrid to the forward base to get rid of the incoming marines ... and this would be very lame and boring, because the whole game will be based on finding out where the RTs are, how are those RTs connected to each other, which one is the best to knock out. This should be things the alien commander has to think about and nobody else, it shouldn't force the alien players to stop defending their hive just to cut the powerconnection to the enemy forward base only to stand a chance. On the other hand if one of their "behind" ressource towers is under attack it shouldn't be too hard for the marines to go all the way back there to defend it, because it could also make it impossible for them to carry on with the attack and the whole game will end up by running back and forth to defend there and try to attack here, or you need a team that just stands around ressource towers and does nothing else but waits for attackers ... or you need a phasegate for every ressource tower. Wouldn't be too exciting for those players.
So I guess if it is implemented well (and I believe you will do this correctly) then it is a very awesome idea that gives enough strategical depth for the marine commander to think about and he wont miss dropping guns for his marines anymore.
About the multible commanders I'm not quite sure if this is a good idea.
It would be funny to be able to play marine vs marine matches or alien vs alien just like any ordinary strategy game and to have this kind of "start of the game" screen before you start a new round, just like any real time strategy game. So no more ready rooms ... so you could "choose" commanders "before" the start of the match and they choose their "faction" (marines or aliens) and then the games starts and both of them are already in their comm chair(s) or hive(s) and the players could join any of those Teams by just clicking on buttons on their screen (or we could even play 2v2 matches and so on ... sounds funny).
Sorry just a random idea, maybe someone will "mod" this anyway.
Thanks for the update I guess I like it.
<i>EDIT:</i> Plasma do you want to play DOTA (somehow reminds me of the Towers) if you make this kind of change the game would become really boring and linear
I think it is always possible for the Marine Commander to make a tight multiple connected build of the ressource towers and therefore the grid (for example 2x3, every tower is connected at least twice with the grid) or he can make a more wide spread build but a more vulnerable one for the grid, but on the other hand he can "control" a bigger area of the map (for example 1x6 a line of ressource towers) or he could just connect two tech points with a line of ressource towers so you have to take out the tech point to break the chain. I think there are enough possibilities and its not limiting the playstyle at all its more like having more options, because before that "change" you had no need to make an option and the truth is what we did in NS1 by building ressource towers, is basically the same we always went from one node to the next and build RTs on it, now we just have to think a bit better about this.
<i>EDIT2:</i> For the part of the "The Ressource Tower powers the room itself ..." I'm not quite sure if this is a good idea, as someone mentioned the doors would be closed and probably sealed so you can't enter the room at all.
It would be very annoying if a room that gets attacked blinks lights on off all the time ... It's probably better to have your rooms be powered with some basics by theirselves and if you add a connected ressource tower some special things would be active like a huge elevator for machines and stuff that would normaly need more power the room can't provide on its own, but making this room totally dependand on the commander chair feels a bit weird, no matter if it makes sense or not. What I'm trying to say is that the room should have some not totally dark and destroyed look if you get in there in the first place (it would scare me too much to go in there <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
<i>EDIT3:</i> Sorry I can't help it... there should really be something like a portable powering device for a room or area that can be connected to a ressource node or just put on the ground to power up a TIMED forward base to make an attack as marine, but it should be clearly visible for how long the power is on in that room and one marine has to drop his primary weapon to carry the power device and therefore has to be protected by the other marines.
<b>So in a nutshell: </b>
-Don't make it a game of hide and seek the ressource towers and no fighting between marines and aliens at all
-I think the power grid and the tech points are a good idea and add additional depth to the game (especially for the commanders)
-Suggestion: You could get rid of the Readyroom and make a classical real time strategy start of the game (choosing faction, colour, start position, choosing will be done by the commanders or someone that get "elected" somehow before the game)
-Suggestion: Portable, time limited, primary weapon slot using powersupply for a room to be able to establish Phase gate outposts for some time (until the area is under controll and connected to the grid).
-Question: Is the starting positon of the marines AND alines at any random tech point ? Or will the players be able to choose, like my suggestion above ? When the starting points are random you can have those exciting fast matches with close positions and more tech relying matches with far away positons.
I really like the theory behind it. I never got along with the idea that Marines could just relocate from minute 0, it kind of broke the atmosphere for me (that of a set of marines are struggling to regain control of their outpost).
I like that it means the end to a phasegate covered with enough sentries meant game over. I like that it means marines can recognise the effects of an alien without a commander needing to tell them. I like that it means even the most basic aliens working together can, with lapses in marine defence, bring down a strategy without needing "a good fade" to rely on.
As long as it's balanced, which has never really been a problem with NS, I can only see an opening up of the games rather than the restriction of tactics being suggested. The best games were the ones that were a tight struggle, where there were lots of mini fights that all added up, closely, to one side winning. That "last minute" CC build never was very interesting to me from either side. It was the delaying of the inevitable and against the grain.
<!--quoteo(post=1704677:date=Apr 11 2009, 12:14 PM:name=Plasma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Plasma @ Apr 11 2009, 12:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope Aliens suffer the same problem as marines in this case (destroying one part breaks everything in front of it), otherwise it would be pretty biased as aliens could just attack the first CC and take down the entire base.
One thought would be to make previous structures somewhat invulnerable so that you MUST attack the most recent buildings in order to push forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well why not just remake NS1 with new graphics and shove it out the door?
Aliens COULD attack the CC, in theory, and bring down the power...but in reality how many times have you seen aliens successfully attack and destroy a CC when the marines weren't already looking towards a loss? I know I've only seen it a few times and those times it was against pretty stupid teams. As long as it's balanced and the strategy of defence isn't too hard to manage or fund then it won't be a problem in NS2 any more than it was in previous versions.
<!--quoteo(post=1704655:date=Apr 11 2009, 01:21 PM:name=N_3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(N_3 @ Apr 11 2009, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->interesting, i sort of liked the marine's ability to be 'disjoint' and mobile in ns1 though; able to set up relos or phase gate outposts anywhere and without connection. it was always the aliens who had to more or less creep forward and gain ground to set up at the hive locations. And i take it the alien starting location is the same every time now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
easy fix is to allow certain structures to operate outside of controlled zones, like command chairs and phase gates.
I like this idea on the basis that you guys at UW are coming up with new things and trying to spice up the game. My only concern is that this new Power Grid system to the game will really change the gameplay. Ns1 was amazingly fun because of how fast pace it was mainly because of the fps aspect of it. Sure resource towers were important in NS but each rt wasn't so significant in winning a game. It seems that with this powergrid that most rts will have the attention of a hive/base take down. With that being the case the game will become extremely more stressful and most of the fun will be thrown out the window. - On top of that the game changes from a fun FPS with strategy to becoming a mainly strategy game with in game players that are missing most of the action that was in NS1.
All I'm saying is that it might not be as fun <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Comments
That said, I recognize that NS2 was meant to be a different thing anyway. Since it was announced, the team has always said that NS was the first encounter, and NS2 is the war. So, it probably <i>should</i> have a different feel, and I'm certainly curious to see what direction the devs have chosen. If it doesn't work, I can always just hold out for somebody to make a "Classic" mod for NS2 anyway. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I like the fact that this leaves less "exploits" in the game
but at the same time i dislike that you don't get to do things like random spot relocations etc
overall though it sounds great <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> especially with the lights flickering etc and when you throw in welding up doors, or opening up new ones, its going to make a of interesting variations to gameplay and stratergies (which is a must to keep the game going long term)
1) The first CC and resource nodes are pre-placed.
2) Killing the resource node cuts power to the CC
3) To build new CCs, you will have to expand to resource points with resource nodes, and then place the CC.
4) If somebody cuts the power from the main base, this base will still be self-powered (as long as this resource node is active), but...
5) If this new resource node is destroyed, the new CC also loses power.
In effect, this means that you *can* have self-sustaining bases for marines, as long as you have both a CC and a resource node there (just as in the main base). However, you can't just arbitrarily place them; you'll have to get there by expanding in small steps. Correct?
I can't tell whether it's a good or bad idea yet. I think I like most of it, but there are issues. Whether those are big will be shown by playtesting, I'm sure.
This seems to me to be the obvious thing to do when going with a second game, not going back and limiting the RTS freedom that we all enjoyed with NS 1. No one likes to babysit Rts, or sit there and bite on them. Many times a few good marine or alien players could earn their res by just killing a lot (think of the pro fade), instead of just guarding Rts. I just worry that the game will be too much about defending and structures in the same important rooms, than actually killing the other team players.
I always thought of NS to be 60% FPS and 40% RTS game but it seems now like it will be too much of the opposite.
Yeah I have faith in the team <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I just want to kill more aliens and marines than stationary structures! Rts already take like 30 seconds to chomp alone as a skulk, any longer and I wont ever go rt hunting again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the whole point! The resource nodes will be tougher to kill to balance this out. Also, when a node is being hit, all the lights and things being affected by it will be flicking dramatically so you'll know very well it's under attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well that's cool. I'm worried that this'll cause some sort of node rushes where the alien side doesn't care about the strategic order of which building to destroy and simply focus on the node. But I like the flickering lights idea.
For asymmetry, consider that aliens may thrive when they're spread out, while marines gain power when consolidated. So infestation can be separated and powerful, with many growth centers, but the marine grid should be connected. To facilitate this, perhaps tier 2 tech is only available while the 2 tech point centers are connected through res nodes? And all 3 for 3. Then to cut marine tech 3, aliens just have to sever a connection to make an opening for counterattack.
Looking at the 6x8 S map as it is, it looks as though there may not be many situations in which killing a res node will power down further areas, because there are multiple routes for the power to run from the various tech locations, so a tech consequence may be necessary.
With this map, it should be made possible through balance to have 3 main strategies: a defensive strategy where your 3 tech points are secured first before any central res, a balanced strat where you secure the near tech pt and central res, and an aggressive strat where you follow the 3 res nodes linearly out to the enemy's obvious 3rd tech point. Naturally, as marines, the aggressive strat opens you up to getting your supply line cut though you can more effectively deny the aliens their 3rd hive location.
However, without a tech consequence for supply lines, note that in the aggressive strat if your 2nd tech location is secured, if the supply line is cut it is irrelevant because the other nodes will still be powered.
I'm imagining interesting games where marines and aliens both have tech points and hives scattered around, due to some being destroyed on each side, with aliens attempting to attack marines from all sides and marines trying to build connections between their fractured bases. I think this is what Flayra is talking about when he says "dynamic".
Why should I have to locate to a point instead of any point in an area.
...
I'm imagining interesting games where marines and aliens both have tech points and hives scattered around, due to some being destroyed on each side, with aliens attempting to attack marines from all sides and marines trying to build connections between their fractured bases. I think this is what Flayra is talking about when he says "dynamic".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. So. Win.
<ul><li>Will rooms flicker if the power node/RT is damaged, or only while its taking damage?</li><li>Similarly, will the leaves dependant on the PN/RT root node flicker when the root node is under attack?</li><li>Does the mapper have full control over what lights turn on/off in power, and any other entities in the room? Like elevators, airlocks, doors etcetc</li><li>Are there 'levels' of damage available to the mapper? As the room loses more and more power can we make lights get dimmer and dimmer, more things going wrong. If you're using LUA I assume this is possible, but will just be an effort to get into the game. If we wont see it in the first release, is it a possibility for the future?</li></ul>
My main concern here is that these details <i>need</i> to be sorted out before the first release. It will be a pain for the mappers to have to go back and set up all these details to keep the map looking sharp if something (like the last point) is added in a later version. Admittedly it will be a worthwhile pain, but annoying nonetheless <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
1) The first CC and resource nodes are pre-placed.
2) Killing the resource node cuts power to the CC
3) To build new CCs, you will have to expand to resource points with resource nodes, and then place the CC.
4) If somebody cuts the power from the main base, this base will still be self-powered (as long as this resource node is active), but...
5) If this new resource node is destroyed, the new CC also loses power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm understanding it correctly, the CC is the power supplier, Res nodes are power link-ups and res suppliers but the CC can operate on it's own. So like...
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Structures Structures
^^ ^^
CC^^>>>>>>>>Res Node^^>>>>>>Res Node<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Also I would assume that if a chain that has a CC on either end loses a single Node, everything else remains powered as still connected somehow to a CC.
I am liking this though also a little nostalgic for classic NS1. Here's the thing tho, I have to remind myself that it's a new game and not a graphical NS1 update...but the whole thing's being done in a scripting language. Entirely possible for someone to remake NS1 as an NS2 mod, then we get the best of both worlds. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
One possible approach could be the use of more "mobile" bases that could be set up. Self powered (ie. NS1) but structures have fewer hit-points, dispense fewer ammo/weapon items (or a limited selection of), and/or deal less damage or have much slower firing rates (turrets, etc.) than the grid-bound versions. That way you could sneak a forward base sustaining a handful of marines in close to a hive when trying to expand the grid out isn't working. Could be a possible job for a 2nd commander having the mobile com chair serve as either a relay node or makeshift com chair depending on the situation.
Maybe the use of some fuel-cell-like driven generator. Something that you have to purchase (maybe at a fairly high-cost) that can be used to get essential structures up and running in a last-ditch recovery effort. After x-amount of time the generator shuts off (or x-amount of stored-up res is used up, maybe even re-chargeable once the RT or com chair is up and running again), but hopefully not before the res tower or 2nd command chair is rebuilt.
With dynamic infestations, will there be some sort of nanite-generator structure to possibly push back the infestation?
Explosive structures? I.e. the armory or anything else that might contain explosive or unstable materials inside. Something that could act as a deterrent to an all out "destroy everything" attack leaving some structures best left to be absorbed by the infestation, maybe even having them grant access to possible adv alien tech structures if captured (I guess that might require them to be prohibited from being recycled or recycled once the power grid is down).
Just some random thoughts.
When the power goes out, infantry portals stop spawning in players, armories can't be used to buy or resupply, Command Stations become inactive, sentries power down, etc. These power regions will be drawn for the Commander, and will blink red when unpowered.
confuses me, because don't command stations give power?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oops - you're absolutely right. That was a mistake. Command Stations are never powered down, they are the "root". I've updated the blog entry.
I'm relieved to see the map layout as it is. There are still a plenty of routes considering the cuts in map size and complexity. Of course the direction and the division of the map are now a lot more obivious, but for a ~10 room map it looks terrific.
Oh and great job posting about the gameplay and new features. Anything gameplay related is always interesting.
RT on a node will spread AI (Alien Infestation) an buildings will further spread the AI, if the node is taken out, the alien buildings stop working?
I'm pretty sure its not exactly like that, but something similiar, since it would be quite unfair if not.
The diffrence between BattleField/Unreal Onslaught and this it's about the possibility to break a node at the start of a chain.
BF and Unreal lock each node after the next one is taken. But they only start from one main Base. Here we can have three
main base (Tech Point) for each team. Well we have to playtest it anyway ^^
Ho just a question, each maps have 6 Tech points, a team can build hive/CC at anyone of them?
Or CC must go to the "marins tech points" and hive to the "hives tech point" ?
Each time have a limit or Marins can build 6 CC with one per tech points?
This made me think. In NS at the moment it is the opposite way. Marines are ranged, but need to always attack lest the khaara tech up too far. Since they are ranged, wherever a marine team is "marine territory" which moves. Set up a phase gate a while into the game and you have a separate marine base of power with "wild" territory inbetween. The Khaara on the other hand need to stop incursions out FROM "marine territory" into what is theirs by default by any means as if they reach your resources they have the advantage. At least if the marines are playing with standard cap and push tactics instead of trying to lock down the map like on certain public servers.
This new system would throw that around, making holding large swatches of territory more important for the marine team. Emphasising a defensive position for a team with primarily ranged weapons against a team of meleers, I fear, can never lead to good gameplay. And with both economy AND teching linked to territory this is what will happen, without fail.
So in conclusion, interesting idea indeed and it might pan out alright. But this further strengthens the fears I wrote of in the "nanogrid vs infestation" (or something) thread. I really hope you realise where you are taking the game, Flayra, and take note of what items in the design that makes this new gameplay tick so if you ever want to play around with it you know what to change.
The first level will be cheaper to build, have less HP, give few resource, allow to build in a smaller area and/or fewer structures types and only light up the room.
Once upgraded, the RT will be full fonctionnal, and power the computers in the rooms making the flickering more dramatic when aliens attacks.
This should adds lot of possibility in the gameplay, help marines to keep the powerline up and allow them to be more offensive against the Kaara.
The drawback... you will have to do a new model for this RT <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Sorry for my poor english <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
...but I guess I'll wait for the clarification that Flayra promised on the twitter. I don't like speaking up on something when I don't know <i>what</i> I'm talking about.
But will he make a new post or update this one...?
One thought would be to make previous structures somewhat invulnerable so that you MUST attack the most recent buildings in order to push forward.
There is just one way that this could spoil the gameplay and that is when the alien Hive gets attacked and because of the port-to-your-squad ability the aliens can't stop the incoming marines and therefore their only chance is to knockout the ressource tower(s) that connect the powergrid to the forward base to get rid of the incoming marines ... and this would be very lame and boring, because the whole game will be based on finding out where the RTs are, how are those RTs connected to each other, which one is the best to knock out. This should be things the alien commander has to think about and nobody else, it shouldn't force the alien players to stop defending their hive just to cut the powerconnection to the enemy forward base only to stand a chance. On the other hand if one of their "behind" ressource towers is under attack it shouldn't be too hard for the marines to go all the way back there to defend it, because it could also make it impossible for them to carry on with the attack and the whole game will end up by running back and forth to defend there and try to attack here, or you need a team that just stands around ressource towers and does nothing else but waits for attackers ... or you need a phasegate for every ressource tower. Wouldn't be too exciting for those players.
So I guess if it is implemented well (and I believe you will do this correctly) then it is a very awesome idea that gives enough strategical depth for the marine commander to think about and he wont miss dropping guns for his marines anymore.
About the multible commanders I'm not quite sure if this is a good idea.
It would be funny to be able to play marine vs marine matches or alien vs alien just like any ordinary strategy game and to have this kind of "start of the game" screen before you start a new round, just like any real time strategy game. So no more ready rooms ... so you could "choose" commanders "before" the start of the match and they choose their "faction" (marines or aliens) and then the games starts and both of them are already in their comm chair(s) or hive(s) and the players could join any of those Teams by just clicking on buttons on their screen (or we could even play 2v2 matches and so on ... sounds funny).
Sorry just a random idea, maybe someone will "mod" this anyway.
Thanks for the update I guess I like it.
<i>EDIT:</i> Plasma do you want to play DOTA (somehow reminds me of the Towers) if you make this kind of change the game would become really boring and linear
I think it is always possible for the Marine Commander to make a tight multiple connected build of the ressource towers and therefore the grid (for example 2x3, every tower is connected at least twice with the grid) or he can make a more wide spread build but a more vulnerable one for the grid, but on the other hand he can "control" a bigger area of the map (for example 1x6 a line of ressource towers) or he could just connect two tech points with a line of ressource towers so you have to take out the tech point to break the chain. I think there are enough possibilities and its not limiting the playstyle at all its more like having more options, because before that "change" you had no need to make an option and the truth is what we did in NS1 by building ressource towers, is basically the same we always went from one node to the next and build RTs on it, now we just have to think a bit better about this.
<i>EDIT2:</i> For the part of the "The Ressource Tower powers the room itself ..." I'm not quite sure if this is a good idea, as someone mentioned the doors would be closed and probably sealed so you can't enter the room at all.
It would be very annoying if a room that gets attacked blinks lights on off all the time ... It's probably better to have your rooms be powered with some basics by theirselves and if you add a connected ressource tower some special things would be active like a huge elevator for machines and stuff that would normaly need more power the room can't provide on its own, but making this room totally dependand on the commander chair feels a bit weird, no matter if it makes sense or not. What I'm trying to say is that the room should have some not totally dark and destroyed look if you get in there in the first place (it would scare me too much to go in there <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
<i>EDIT3:</i> Sorry I can't help it... there should really be something like a portable powering device for a room or area that can be connected to a ressource node or just put on the ground to power up a TIMED forward base to make an attack as marine, but it should be clearly visible for how long the power is on in that room and one marine has to drop his primary weapon to carry the power device and therefore has to be protected by the other marines.
<b>So in a nutshell: </b>
-Don't make it a game of hide and seek the ressource towers and no fighting between marines and aliens at all
-I think the power grid and the tech points are a good idea and add additional depth to the game (especially for the commanders)
-Suggestion: You could get rid of the Readyroom and make a classical real time strategy start of the game (choosing faction, colour, start position, choosing will be done by the commanders or someone that get "elected" somehow before the game)
-Suggestion: Portable, time limited, primary weapon slot using powersupply for a room to be able to establish Phase gate outposts for some time (until the area is under controll and connected to the grid).
-Question: Is the starting positon of the marines AND alines at any random tech point ?
Or will the players be able to choose, like my suggestion above ? When the starting points are random you can have those exciting fast matches with close positions and more tech relying matches with far away positons.
I like that it means the end to a phasegate covered with enough sentries meant game over. I like that it means marines can recognise the effects of an alien without a commander needing to tell them. I like that it means even the most basic aliens working together can, with lapses in marine defence, bring down a strategy without needing "a good fade" to rely on.
As long as it's balanced, which has never really been a problem with NS, I can only see an opening up of the games rather than the restriction of tactics being suggested. The best games were the ones that were a tight struggle, where there were lots of mini fights that all added up, closely, to one side winning. That "last minute" CC build never was very interesting to me from either side. It was the delaying of the inevitable and against the grain.
One thought would be to make previous structures somewhat invulnerable so that you MUST attack the most recent buildings in order to push forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well why not just remake NS1 with new graphics and shove it out the door?
Aliens COULD attack the CC, in theory, and bring down the power...but in reality how many times have you seen aliens successfully attack and destroy a CC when the marines weren't already looking towards a loss? I know I've only seen it a few times and those times it was against pretty stupid teams. As long as it's balanced and the strategy of defence isn't too hard to manage or fund then it won't be a problem in NS2 any more than it was in previous versions.
easy fix is to allow certain structures to operate outside of controlled zones, like command chairs and phase gates.
All I'm saying is that it might not be as fun <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
and how is this going to work with phasegates?