Some Inspiration from Left 4 Dead...
NeoGregorian
Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13093Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13093Members, Constellation
Having played Valve's recently released Left 4 Dead has given me new hope for teamwork in multiplayer games.
There are a few ideas from L4D (And especially Versus mode) that <i>could</i> serve some purpose in NS2 gameplay.
I'm not an expert of L4D gameplay, but this is from what I have picked up:
In L4D the Survivors are pressed to cover ground fast while being on constant lookout for threats, trying to stick together and react quickly to ambushes. The Infected on the other hand try to harass and distract the survivors as well as create coordinated ambushes.
While there are a lot of differences between L4D and NS, there are also some similarities as well as potential inspiration.
An interesting ability: the Hunter can "pin down" a Survivor by pouncing onto him rendering him/her defenseless while the Hunter makes quick work of him/her. The downside to this is that the Hunter is vulnerable to to the other Survivors that come to the rescue. This makes the Hunter extremely good if 1-on-1 battles (as well as solving the general problem with melee combat in FPS) but ineffective against numbers.
Compare this to the "new" skulk that has been discussed... One that is more focused on scouting than combat?
Seems to be an interesting alternative at least.
<b>Short version:</b>
Skulks melee suggestion :<ul><li>A pounce that attaches the skulk to the marine. </li><li>While the skulk is attached to the marine, he is pinned down (cannot move nor attack)
and can be attacked by the skulk until he dies (a few seconds, subject to balance)</li><li>Another marine can kill the skulk to free the helpless target.</li></ul>
There are a few ideas from L4D (And especially Versus mode) that <i>could</i> serve some purpose in NS2 gameplay.
I'm not an expert of L4D gameplay, but this is from what I have picked up:
In L4D the Survivors are pressed to cover ground fast while being on constant lookout for threats, trying to stick together and react quickly to ambushes. The Infected on the other hand try to harass and distract the survivors as well as create coordinated ambushes.
While there are a lot of differences between L4D and NS, there are also some similarities as well as potential inspiration.
An interesting ability: the Hunter can "pin down" a Survivor by pouncing onto him rendering him/her defenseless while the Hunter makes quick work of him/her. The downside to this is that the Hunter is vulnerable to to the other Survivors that come to the rescue. This makes the Hunter extremely good if 1-on-1 battles (as well as solving the general problem with melee combat in FPS) but ineffective against numbers.
Compare this to the "new" skulk that has been discussed... One that is more focused on scouting than combat?
Seems to be an interesting alternative at least.
<b>Short version:</b>
Skulks melee suggestion :<ul><li>A pounce that attaches the skulk to the marine. </li><li>While the skulk is attached to the marine, he is pinned down (cannot move nor attack)
and can be attacked by the skulk until he dies (a few seconds, subject to balance)</li><li>Another marine can kill the skulk to free the helpless target.</li></ul>
Comments
I like it.
Rambos would die fast...
There are a few ideas from L4D (And especially Versus mode) that <i>could</i> serve some purpose in NS2 gameplay.
I'm not an expert of L4D gameplay, but this is from what I have picked up:
In L4D the Survivors are pressed to cover ground fast while being on constant lookout for threats, trying to stick together and react quickly to ambushes. The Infected on the other hand try to harass and distract the survivors as well as create coordinated ambushes.
While there are a lot of differences between L4D and NS, there are also some similarities as well as potential inspiration.
An interesting ability: the Hunter can "pin down" a Survivor by pouncing onto him rendering him/her defenseless while the Hunter makes quick work of him/her. The downside to this is that the Hunter is vulnerable to to the other Survivors that come to the rescue. This makes the Hunter extremely good if 1-on-1 battles (as well as solving the general problem with melee combat in FPS) but ineffective against numbers.
Compare this to the "new" skulk that has been discussed... One that is more focused on scouting than combat?
Seems to be an interesting alternative at least.
<b>Short version:</b>
Skulks melee suggestion :<ul><li>A pounce that attaches the skulk to the marine. </li><li>While the skulk is attached to the marine, he is pinned down (cannot move nor attack)
and can be attacked by the skulk until he dies (a few seconds, subject to balance)</li><li>Another marine can kill the skulk to free the helpless target.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There have been similar ideas in the past. In short I'm not for a full disable like you're suggesting but I think it has a place.
<!--quoteo(post=1658495:date=Oct 30 2007, 11:54 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Oct 30 2007, 11:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1658495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not a big fan of disorienting/stumbling[/knockdown] effects as they always feel forced. ... For skulk I envision more of a latch on bite that does damage overtime. A single marine could have trouble with a skulk that's latched on but if he's in a group it leaves the skulk vulnerable to attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1667092:date=Jan 11 2008, 10:12 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jan 11 2008, 10:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... Marines could have a quick strike that knocks off skulks on the front/side and not the back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Btw, the skulk is the scout/guerilla lifeform already, is it necessary to emphasize it further and make it less versatile? Right now its one of the most creative thingys around in any FPS games I've played. It just takes some time to learn to use the versatility. Once again this leads into the learning curve discussion, but I think we've got a plenty of threads for that already.
Btw, the skulk is the scout/guerilla lifeform already, is it necessary to emphasize it further and make it less versatile? Right now its one of the most creative thingys around in any FPS games I've played. It just takes some time to learn to use the versatility. Once again this leads into the learning curve discussion, but I think we've got a plenty of threads for that already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what about having it do damage with no disable as I was suggesting above. It would be another weapon in the skulk's arsenal, not replacing the leap/bite mechanics.
Edit: Let me elaborate so there is more to discuss:<ul><li> Secondary fire of bite and/or leap is a latch on attack.</li><li> Initial bite may or may not do reduced damage.</li><li> <b>No</b> knockdown/disable/slow/visual imparement.</li><li> Damage dealt around 15 per second. Enough to make it faster to bite opponent normally.</li><li> Possible balancing features:<ul><li> Secondary knife fire insta-hits.</li><li> Welder knockback.</li><li> Allow skulks on side/front to be knocked off with quickstrike(weapon switch not needed)</li></ul></li></ul>
Edit: Let me elaborate so there is more to discuss:<ul><li> Secondary fire of bite and/or leap is a latch on attack.</li><li> Initial bite may or may not do reduced damage.</li><li> <b>No</b> knockdown/disable/slow/visual imparement.</li><li> Damage dealt around 15 per second. Enough to make it faster to bite opponent normally.</li><li> Possible balancing features:<ul><li> Secondary knife fire insta-hits.</li><li> Welder knockback.</li><li> Allow skulks on side/front to be knocked off with quickstrike(weapon switch not needed)</li></ul></li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I'm not sure about the reasoning why we need anything like this in the first place, but that seems a far more reasonable choise if it was to be implemented.
A feature for a creature that relies on melee that allows it to stay in the ranged opponents blind spot until his buddy shoots it off would definitely be some fun times.
Remember riding an Onos? What if the Onos rode you? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> Muhahaha...
But all silliness aside, wrestling with a skulk could possibly be fun for both sides if implemented in a manner that allows for teamwork to be prevalent, it should not be a insta-pwn move.
Hmm, and what if it was more than the back but the front too? Pin a marines arms to his sides so his weapons don't work until someone gets the skulk off? *shrug* Just brain storming.
Edit: But I would like to note here, given that it is in the title of the thread, Versus in Left 4 Dead is experiencing all kinds of issues that are certainly less than ideal for a game - especially in regards to some weird spawning of the Tank, delayed spawns, difficulty settings, melee spam annoyances, possible hacks that allow for whole sale slaughter of infected through walls, and steam rolled matches with what appears to be team stacks (friends only lobby + pick a side + change lobby to public + <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> = profit). There is definitely some other weirdness with bugs and issues with the Xbox like system of connecting to games too. Oh, and "Take A Break" is disabled in Versus <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> That all said though, the game is still proving to be a ton of fun when played with friends, mostly in the cooperative campaign mode though.
<a href="http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=755766" target="_blank">A More Detailed Thread On Current L4D Borks</a>
Because I love [lists]<ul><li> Encourages marines to cover each other</li><li> New form of "baiting"(one hops on back to force knife, next skulk takes advantage)</li><li> Newbies can now "follow" a jumping marine(only in an ambush situation, and at the cost of being vulnerable and doing much less damage)</li><li> Biting and moving is still quicker so it doesn't remove the upper caps on skulk skill</li></ul>In order to prevent marine movement from being nerfed too much I have a couple of further limitations:<ul><li> Bite cooldown empties and freezes while in use(so must wait entire bite cooldown <b>after release</b> before biting)</li><li> Uses adren(like charge/blink)</li></ul>
I also agree that there should be a cooldown after release that you can't do much, or else it becomes a pin, dislodge, bite, pin, dislodge, bite. Oh, and the ability of the Skulk to dislodge would be useful in case you realize you need to run away.
- Scouting
- trying to catch-up to the rest of the team
Does this mean that once a skulk is attached there’s nothing a marine can do to get rid of it without having to find a team mate. There would have to be someway for a marine to attempt to get rid of the skulk otherwise this attack would be too powerful.
I like the whole skulk attaching to the marine idea though, in theory it makes sense and it would add realism to the game...rather then a skulk jumping up and down next to a marine while attacking.
Also, is there a limitation to the amount of skulks that can attach to a single marine? I can already imagine a marine with skulks dangling from all of his limbs with his commander and teammates frantically trying to save his life, haha.
Also, is there a limitation to the amount of skulks that can attach to a single marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I imagine the attacks more like a bunch of dogs tearing apart a T-Bone Steak. biting at the ankles and holding on there. That way the teamates would do a LOT less damage if FF was on. That would also create a limit of around 3 skulks, but if the skulks did enough damage, say, took the marine to 50% hp or less, then he would fall down for an "alien feast"
I imagine this as more of a Leechlike attack. Normal bites would do more damage, but the leech attack would give the skulk a health boost,(similar to tf2 medic overheal) as well as:
-More reliable damage amount
-Full Adrenaline
-Enhancement for next 5 seconds after they stop similar to "Primal Scream" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/siege.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::siege::" border="0" alt="siege.gif" />
In CoD4 you can be attacked by gaurd dogs. You have to press a button at the right time, just when the dog's head lunges at you to bite, and if you time it right you can grab its head and stop the attack. Perhaps something like that? Where you have to time a defense at the right time to either kill the skulk or get him off you?
Ever watched a good skulk play? He'll land one bite on the marines 75% of the time with leap. The only thing that stops him from landing that leap is either a bit of distance or a snap reflex shotgun shot. Now picture a few people able to leap getting loose on the marine squads of similar size. The marines get one brief moment of reflex shots before they're all down to ground, nobody left to save them.
I agree. Unless this is a 3rd hive replacement for xeno or something it's way too powerful. A one shot kill for skulks, the run-of-the-mill basic alien, is overpowering. Besides, to be honest, a skulk isn't heavy enough to pin down a marine unless that skulk is pushing up on something. Anyone can lift up a small dog. The only way a skulk could pin a marine is by impaling him, which should just kill the marine outright, or by pushing off a ceiling or sharply angled wall.
So how about this: multi-hive ability, and only usable in very small spaces or close to walls or dodads that offer leverage?
the ability should enforce the objectives of the skulk, help him, and give him more options.
the skulk has 3 objectives, scouting. ambushing, supporting.
scouting is clear, run around the map, para marines and dont get killed.
supporting is viable too, and can help your team greatly, (fade+skulk)
ambushing. is very hard to do right, but most of the time you fail, becouse you cant stop the enemys MGs from firing. or you dont have partners.
now, i have 2 versions in my mind.
1. leap secondary attack. you leap, but if you hit a marine, you latch on him, making him completely helpless,(knocking him on the floor or something) but dont do any damage, BUT your teammates can easely kill him. it requires you to charge it (you can hold it forever) 3-4 seconds to use it, it will drain all your adrin, and make yourself a easy target, this whould enforce ambushing whit mates, supporting and helping each other, and marines will move in packs around. HAs handle like marines, and JP fall down, giving him fall damage.
a little scenario:
a dark room, pipes and 2 generators obstruct the view, its rater small, whit 2 doors, the lights are off.
in this room are 3 skulks hiding. waiting. they know that 2 marines will come through it.
the marines arrive. the door opens, they make a step forward, 2 of the skulks leap directly on them, both fall on the floor, the marines try to keep the skulks away from them whit hands and feet, no site can gain upper hand. now, the third skulk falls from the ceiling, rush to his mates, and kill the figning marines.
2.
this version handles exactly the same as 1. but you get it as 3rd hive ability, as sucide secondary.
uppon activation, you can freely leap, but the timers set. after 5 seconds you explode. but, if you hit a marine. you will stick to him, and explode, giving you a 100% chance kill. but splash damage is lowered. so you can only kill one HA, and damage slightly the others.
scenario:
the hive room is under attack!! they got 3 HAs and ######-load of marines just behind the corner, building sieges.
now, you and 2 other skulks made a plan that 2 of them latch on the HAs, and the last one finish the damaged marines then
they rush in, like the plan 2 of the skulks latch on the HAs, who are required of the help of the other marines. the marines fail, and lose 2 heavys, and get damaged by the splash, now, they are packed up, the last skulk goes in, primary xeno selected, does huge splash damage which kills most of the enemys, 2 are still standing, whit under 20 hp. the incoming lerk will handle that.
How about skulks can walk on marines like walls?? It would be perfect. If you have silence you could run right up behind a marine and get on his back, and then chomp away while he spins trying to find you. If you have silence and cloak, you could just sit on his back and wait to ambush his teammates at a crucial time (such as your skulk friends attack the squad from the front).
There's no complicated secondary abilities, not really an added learning curve, but there is one problem: when you attack a marine normally with no intentions of attaching to them, it could accidentally happen seeing as the skulk is all melee. But it's still better than damage over time and knockdown IMO.
I like it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being forced to do stick together, doesn't mean that it increases teamwork. This idea totally does not fit in the concept of NS, and the aliens would completely dominated.
xeno secondary, even 3 hives: HA counter.
The hitbox pattern is a little outdated. I'm sure the new engine will have a more realistic algorithm for determining hits.
No, I think it's an excellent idea. I see it as only a matter of balancing and tinkering. I think marines should be disabled aside from movement (not knocked down), and the amount of time in which a skulk can remain on a marine is equivalent to the amount of adrenaline he had when he attached. Which means that skulks get a bigger payoff for leaping once and hitting for not having used all their adrenaline in the process.
I don't think it's overpowered. Perhaps at first it would be, but marines would begin to stay in groups of at least 2 with at least one marine always covering the backs of his teammates. You'd have to to realistically expect to survive a veteran skulk or more skulks, and rightfully so.
Though try 5 skulks trying to all leap onto 5 marines in a coordinated attack and I'll think you'll find that within a week after people get used to this new feature that the skulks will likely either attack the same target or get easily picked off by another marine backing them up or a skulk getting stuck on the wall when leaping.. In summary, I don't think 5 skulks pinning 5 marines is as easy as it sounds. Perhaps with more organized tactics like 2 skulks going for leap while the rest take advantage of the confusion would probably gain better results.
Since celerity and adrenaline can't both be taken, and the amount of time a skulk can disable a marine is linked to the amount of adrenaline they have, I think you'll find skulks playing the roll of the ambushers (adrenaline) or as more aggressive beserker type strategy (celerity).
Either way, promotes teamwork from both Kharaa and Frontiersmen. Thumbs up to the idea.
Either way, promotes teamwork from both Kharaa and Frontiersmen. Thumbs up to the idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ones that missed can most likely get another try with only 2-3 confused marines shooting at them. Basically every skulk that misses is still a very formiddable force with bite even if it doesn't land another leap. Against 2 or 3 marines, aliens can just pick their targets relatively easily if they aren't all ambushing from the same direction.
Why do people always say these increase teamwork for both teams? Kharaa skulkwork would become far easier and thus it would most likely decrease challenge there. Also note that teamwork isn't all about sticking together. A smart marine group spreads out when needed and closes distance when its useful again. In general its a good idea to stick together unless you've got a better idea, so no change in that either. Public games are using maybe one tenth of the teamwork potential in NS, so I don't know if the players can adapt to such 'forced' teamwork either.
and you sound that teamwork is bad, that we dont need this to get teamwork. well your right, but also so wrong.
public players will never teamwork. its more effective, and more fun whit it, but its not neccassery.
teamwork can be forced by A, scary,dark atmosphere, OR B, unsurvivelable situations when alone.
B.
and you sound that teamwork is bad, that we dont need this to get teamwork. well your right, but also so wrong.
public players will never teamwork. its more effective, and more fun whit it, but its not neccassery.
teamwork can be forced by A, scary,dark atmosphere, OR B, unsurvivelable situations when alone.
B.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you read my post again, you may notice that I'm argumenting against the people who think teamwork is all about moving in a one tightly packed crowd (Ye, that post has a bit of bad choise of words, but I think the message should still remain clear enough).
Making skulking easier is fine as long as its still as interesting and somewhat creative as it is now. However, making it easier doesn't necessarily increase teamwork for both teams like some people seem to assume for this idea. For example right now a well positioned marine needs maybe two skulks with teamwork to take out. With the 'stunning' leap a single skulk could easily eliminate the marine without any teamwork. Whether the marine should move out alone is another thing, but I think I've argumented for that enough already. In addition, kharaa are the more mobile team in general, so they should most likely be able to group up. In addition, the marine has reached a good position, which should be rewarded a bit.
Btw, stop making those assumptions, will you? I went competetive _because_ there you can actually have a little better level of teamwork and strategy, not to wtfpwn the public (meh, like I'd do that) with some silly looking clan tag.