Amazing. Your logic is so perfect, you have totally blown my mind and now I realise bunnyhop should definately not be in NS2. Let's see how the whole Commander idea stands up to your wonderful argument.
The Commander
Is it essential to make the game fun? No.
Will it be missed? Perhaps.
Is it a mechanic that should exist in a game 2008...2009...whenever NS2 is being released? No.
Wow! I guess Comm shouldn't be in NS2 either!
The Gorge
Is it essential to make the game fun? No.
Will it be missed? Perhaps.
Is it a mechanic that should exist in a game 2008...2009...whenever NS2 is being released? No.
I am not saying my logic is infallible, but for god's sake: don't use a straw man argument. Don't exaggerate what I say and ignore its context. It is completely disrespectful and it ruins your creditability.
What I want to get across is the idea of changing something (entirely or partially) when it has problems and cannot be progressed further to solve those problems. Everything you described in your sarcastic remarks can be improved because fundamentally the mechanics of those ideas are malleable. The commander and gorge both have issues and they are being resolved in NS2. What can you really do to fix Bunny Hoping that can't be done better in creating new mechanics to fill the void in "skill"?
What most astounds me is that you took "Is it a mechanic that should exist in a game 2008...2009...whenever NS2 is being released?" so oddly. What I was getting at was when was the last time you saw a game have bunny hop that wasn't a port?
<!--quoteo(post=1692598:date=Nov 6 2008, 06:44 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 6 2008, 06:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not saying my logic is infallible, but for god's sake: don't use a straw man argument. Don't exaggerate what I say and ignore its context. It is completely disrespectful and it ruins your creditability.
What I want to get across is the idea of changing something (entirely or partially) when it has problems and cannot be progressed further to solve those problems. Everything you described in your sarcastic remarks can be improved because fundamentally the mechanics of those ideas are malleable. The commander and gorge both have issues and they are being resolved in NS2. What can you really do to fix Bunny Hoping that can't be done better in creating new mechanics to fill the void in "skill"?
What most astounds me is that you took "Is it a mechanic that should exist in a game 2008...2009...whenever NS2 is being released?" so oddly. What I was getting at was when was the last time you saw a game have bunny hop that wasn't a port?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tribes, QuakeWorld, Quake II, Quake III Arena, Half-Life, Team Fortress Classic, War§ow, Enemy Territory Fortress, Kingpin: Life of Crime, Dystopia, Half-Life 2 and Battlefield 2. Probably alot more.
You have not stated WHY Bunnyhopping should be "fixed" or removed and have no real argument as to WHY it shouldn't stay in the game, other then some people don't like it
<!--quoteo(post=1692598:date=Nov 6 2008, 06:44 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 6 2008, 06:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't exaggerate what I say and ignore its context.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If your argument can't be stretched to the limits and still make any sense, it is false.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even simpler, if a mechanic can incite such outright division in the community, it should not be in there. The game should be there to unite people in play (stolen from the development team's mission goal) and the subject of what being discussed here is not doing that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Removing bunnyhopping will alienate more players than keeping it in. The players that are against it are just blowing smoke and trying to prove to themselves that they aren't worse than the players who can bunnyhop.
aimbotting = banned aimbotting = no skill bunnyhopping = skill bunnyhopping =!= aimbotting bunnyhopping = not banned
Bunny hopping has never made you a better player. Period. No IFs and no BUTs. I've seen a dozen players who can bunny hop around an entire map but when it came to one on one they had nothing to bring to the table. I'm actually kind of shocked that this discussion is still going on. I thought it would have died out a month or so ago.
Why are we still talking about it? Can't we just move on to a better topic that won't destroy the community when its over?
The fact is NS2 will be NS2. Sure a lot of the game mechanics will be copied and modified, but they will be different in a variety of ways. I don't think the Devs are going to make the mistake of porting the bunny hopping system as it is over to NS2 exactly like it was. If they port it over at all its going to be different. What made Bunny Hopping, Bunny Hopping in NS1 isn't going to be present in NS2. Its going to be a different system. How do you feel about that? Is that going to change your decision to want to play NS2? What if they don't put a bunny hopping-like system in NS2 at all? Whatever are you going to do then?
If people are against bunny hopping - so what if they can't actually perform it? Its their opinion. Deal with it. If people love bunny hopping - so what if it ruins gameplay for you. Its their opinion. Deal with it.
Now lets move on to something a little more worth everyones while?
Ugh, please don't use the 'take it or leave it' argument. We're not children, we've grown past this 'well if you don't like it don't play it' attitude. They're trying to make a game to sell and grow a large community, not appeal to only half the barrel with this bhop nobhop issue. So here we discuss hoping to come across some sort of agreement between all, not yell 'deal with it', essentially destroying the whole idea behind discussing BHop. And yes, it should be discussed, as half of NS loves it and half of NS hates it.
Now when I joined this argument months ago (not the thread), I was completely against bhop. Now after watching people do it in vids and reading tutorials and trying it out myself (albeit I refuse to bind mouse wheel to jump, screw that ###### space is my jump button damn you), I don't want it gone. I just want it reasoned. Why the hell should a creature that looks like an alien frog move faster by jumping sideways than running forward? I could see your argument 'frogs jump', but they don't bloody jump sideways.
It's been said before, by me, above and around, but the BHop tactic is the only thing in NS that's outside of 3D simulation. It's like introducing a rule from... CHESS, into the simulation physics. It doesn't make sense, diagonal pawns taking over pieces somehow translates into how the engine deals with physics... see my point? It's beyond foreign, it's connectionless. There's nothing joining BHopping, as is, with 3D simulation and thus it becomes a specialized 'elite' tactic that creates these huge skill gaps that we want to AVOID. A game skill graph should look like this:
Skill |`````````````````````````````0 |```````````````0`````````````` |```````0`````````````````````` |```0`````````````````````````` |`0```````````````````````````` |0````````````````````````````` |______________________________ Time
A person gets into the game easily but it takes a lot of time to master, BUT even with years over another person, you're never good enough to dominate them 100 to 0.
Pretty ######ed up ###### I say. A person starts playing, it takes a little while to get used to but soon they hit 'average' status. Then they play and play until something clicks and suddenly their skill skyrockets as they enter the 'elite' status. S'why games are always divided, pretty much straight down the line, between good players and average players instead of being a gradual mix of the two.
One of the reasons for this is weird little things that are hard to quantify, like BHopping, a ridiculously foreign technique that doesn't make any level of sense in 3D simulation that gives people a certain 'edge' that new players don't understand.
So for all you people who think it's purely a question of 'he can't do it, thus he complains', take a moment to read what I'm saying, and then read what you just said. I'm not trying to make the gameplay take less skill, just make that skill understandable to everyone, and thus something they can actually try and learn for themselves without having to do crazy ###### like bind jump to mousewheel or somehow wrap their minds around the concept that jumping sideways can make you move faster than jumping FORWARDS.
Accessibility man. BHop as is is anything but accessible to n00bs and even average players. I'm saying either adjust it so it's something a person can wrap their mind around and practise from the getgo (even if it's still just as hard to master), or scrap it as it's just another factor that creates the two rather large barriers to NS: first time play and gargantuan skill gaps.
<!--quoteo(post=1692612:date=Nov 6 2008, 11:01 AM:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dalin Seivewright @ Nov 6 2008, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692612"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen a dozen players who can bunny hop around an entire map but when it came to one on one they had nothing to bring to the table.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is actually a very good point. Bunnyhopping doesn't make that much of a difference in combat, it only makes a significant difference on the strategic level when you can get your players where you want them 70% faster. If you are getting killed by a bunnyhopping skulk, your aim is bad and you'd probably get killed by an ambushing skulk 2x faster. It just so happens that the players that know how to bunnyhop also have other relevant skills to back up their stuff.
A person gets into the game easily but it takes a lot of time to master, BUT even with years over another person, you're never good enough to dominate them 100 to 0.
Pretty ######ed up ###### I say. A person starts playing, it takes a little while to get used to but soon they hit 'average' status. Then they play and play <b>until something clicks</b> and suddenly their skill skyrockets as they enter the 'elite' status. S'why games are always divided, pretty much straight down the line, between good players and average players instead of being a gradual mix of the two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That click is them saying "oh man, I don't want to be mediocre anymore, I want to improve" And then they start spending a lot of time on improving, hence the apparent jump in skill. The graph is still in fact:
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->v<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Mediocre player
<!--coloro:#000080--><span style="color:#000080"><!--/coloro-->v<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Mediocre player after practicing.
This makes the graph look like: Skill |`````````````````````````````0 |````````````````````````````0` |```<!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->v<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->```````````````````````0`` |```0`````````````````````````` |`0```````````````````````````` |0````````````````````````````` |______________________________ Time
<!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->v<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - because most people there don't see how/don't want to improve.
<!--quoteo(post=1692629:date=Nov 6 2008, 02:42 PM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Nov 6 2008, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd debate and discuss, but we're straying off of the BHop topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all, except for this post and the one quoted. Everything discussed above is 100% relevant to the argument.
A person gets into the game easily but it takes a lot of time to master, BUT even with years over another person, you're never good enough to dominate them 100 to 0.
Pretty ######ed up ###### I say. <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->A person starts playing, it takes a little while to get used to but soon they hit 'average' status. Then they play and play until something clicks and suddenly their skill skyrockets as they enter the 'elite' status.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't work that way. I'll explain what really happens even though you won't believe half of what I say.
Step 1: Player hears about NS, installs it, and begins raging that they aren't domining right away.
Step 2: Player presses "c" and beings thinking strategically.
Step 3: Player realizes that frags are subordinate to killing the hive and capping res nodes, their score takes a hit but will eventually rebound many times over because their motivation is now based on strategic objectives, and they will be putting themselves in much more advantageous positions in the coming months.
Step 4: Player beings to play either alien or marine with a focus on ambushing or aiming.
Step 5: Player either rages out of the game (probably to return), or learns to play at a semblance of decency.
Step 6: Player beings dominating public servers. Player gets cocky.
Step 7: Player joins a pickup game, nerdrages out of their mind because of the cognitive dissonance realized by the fact that all the skills they were learning until now were contingent upon bad players.
Step 8: Player rages out of the game again.
Step 9: Player returns to the game and begins studying the deeper aspects of play, perhaps joining an organization like NSLearn. Player learns new strategies and tactics with less holes (that do not require bad players to succeed).
Step 10: Player plays in CAL or ANSL until they get bored with the game.
Step 11a: Player rages out of the game due to lack of skilled opposition.
Step 11b: OR Player keeps playing despite there being no good players around anymore due to Step 11a.
Step 12: Players from Step 11a continue to rage out of the game, widening the lack of mediocre players and furthering the delusion of players who are still stuck in Step 8.
Step 13: The middle class of players slowly dissolves leaving an ever wider chasm of baddies and veterans (and pubstars who think they are veterans, who are generally the only real ######s of the game except for Noxolan).
Step 14: Eventually all of the skilled players will leave the game as their real lives progress, leaving only the players who are terrible.
Step 15: Finally, even the terrible players who still suffer from the delusion of their own skill will dissapate out of the game, leaving an empty husk and no community. This is the nature of a game, and sounds depressing even though it is actually good for the company who can then profit from the players' void of entertainment.
<!--quoteo(post=1692712:date=Nov 7 2008, 02:21 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 7 2008, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is there an assumption that every person will be playing NS2 competitively?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How else can you play a multiplayer videogame? By cooperating with the enemy team?
Hey guys, I'm tired of fighting! Let's be friends! Skulk rides for everyone.
<!--quoteo(post=1692712:date=Nov 7 2008, 02:21 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 7 2008, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is there an assumption that every person will be playing NS2 competitively?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Generally speaking, that's how the learning curve progresses if you want to keep improving. Public games will get you only that far due to
1.) Bad opposition 2.) The lack of organised possibilities to affect the outcome of the game. 3.) The huge mass of players leaves very little room for understanding the game flow, since the teams spread out everywhere anyway. 4.) Everything is random. It's quite hard to analyze your effort, since your teammates and the opponent may play incredibly stupid or relatively smart.
Of course it shouldn't be that way, but as long as people are more interested in blasting the skulks than thinking about the game logic I can't see much other choices for improving.
<!--quoteo(post=1692723:date=Nov 6 2008, 11:03 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Nov 6 2008, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692723"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Generally speaking, that's how the learning curve progresses if you want to keep improving. Public games will get you only that far due to
1.) Bad opposition 2.) The lack of organised possibilities to affect the outcome of the game. 3.) The huge mass of players leaves very little room for understanding the game flow, since the teams spread out everywhere anyway. 4.) Everything is random. It's quite hard to analyze your effort, since your teammates and the opponent may play incredibly stupid or relatively smart.
Of course it shouldn't be that way, but as long as people are more interested in blasting the skulks than thinking about the game logic I can't see much other choices for improving.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a shame that is has to be that way. I used to play regularly on a single server and found it to suit me just fine. But I never played competitively since I already had a pretty good experience. Enough for me to be interested in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1692724:date=Nov 7 2008, 04:27 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 7 2008, 04:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is a shame that is has to be that way. I used to play regularly on a single server and found it to suit me just fine. But I never played competitively since I already had a pretty good experience. Enough for me to be interested in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can't see any reason for not trying organised play. Right now its on a deadlock, since hardly anyone new starts playing it anymore. However, on NS2 you can most likely try playing some 6 v 6 (or whatever people play on NS2) on any skill and seriousness level and see if its more enjoyable.
You don't really need to try to improve or win anything, it's just the fact that organised play allows you to get to know people better and most likely get to know the game better too. A little like playing football with a bunch of friends regularly is often more fun than playing it with people you don't know.
<!--quoteo(post=1692729:date=Nov 7 2008, 12:53 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Nov 7 2008, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692729"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't see any reason for not trying organised play. Right now its on a deadlock, since hardly anyone new starts playing it anymore. However, on NS2 you can most likely try playing some 6 v 6 (or whatever people play on NS2) on any skill and seriousness level and see if its more enjoyable.
You don't really need to try to improve or win anything, it's just the fact that organised play allows you to get to know people better and most likely get to know the game better too. A little like playing football with a bunch of friends regularly is often more fun than playing it with people you don't know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I had basically was pretty much organized play with half the people on the server, since I knew them fairly well. I never had a good schedule for gaming and I was mostly looking for a fix of fun. NS was fun even though it had its moments where it was aggravating. The initial learning curve was NS was huge and once I got past that, everything was good aside from commanding, which is extremely difficult to get a hand of without feeling guilty that you did a bad job. The game really needs to be softer on newer players though.
Which is way I am so interested in NS2 since it expands on most things that I didn't like in NS1. They are making it easier to pick up and play which should make it appeal to a much wider audience. Which is essential for a commercial game. I was extremely forgiving about a lot of the faults in NS1 because it was a mod and a damn good one at that.
<!--quoteo(post=1692724:date=Nov 7 2008, 05:27 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 7 2008, 05:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is a shame that is has to be that way. I used to play regularly on a single server and found it to suit me just fine. But I never played competitively since I already had a pretty good experience. Enough for me to be interested in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe this would change over time, for you as well as anyone. For a time I played TF2 on random pubs and felt fine about semi-dominating random pubs, but after joining a community of gaming veterans and playing on their servers (where I was mid-tier on average), I could never go back. Can't put my finger on it. Just that playing Spy on random pub and having 5 times the score of the closest person wasn't fun anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1692572:date=Nov 5 2008, 11:58 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Nov 5 2008, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen you around and I'm not too impressed. There is a big difference between being better than the majority of pubbers and being good. Ok, follow this logic:
A player has been playing for a while, knows most of the ins and outs of the game, has good reflexes and aim. A newbie joins the game. Who should win?
Yes, no marine should be able to hold up to 12 skulks attacking at the same time, but 12 skulks almost never attack a single marine at the same time. NS games at the pub level are usually just a compilation of lightning fast 1:1s or 1:2s. So who should be winning, Mustang or NSPlayer?
Also, it should be noted that the player out dominating in the field is helpless without a good commander to keep him supplied and provide divine intervention (well aimed meds in combat) once in a while. The problem here is that gorges have too much health, it is true. It shouldn't take a clip to kill a gorge. But then again, no matter how you fight, you will almost always be in advantageous position when fighting gorges, just block its way out as you run up to it. You shouldn't need a strategy guide if you've played this game for more than a month.
Also can someone find out the movement speed of a gorge and a skulk so we can test the hypothesis that celerity gorges can bhop faster than celerity skulks can run. Must be a 3.0/3.1 change. +movement is welcomed, because typing a script takes no relevant skill, nor does it add depth. Bunnyhopping takes relevant skill and adds depth and shouldn't be obscured. Of course you wouldn't understand the depth because you don't have any idea what we're talking about. Learn it sometime <u>and then</u> argue. Wait, I've seen this argument before, anyone else notice it? <!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I'm angry people are better than me, they must be aimbotting.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So now I think your aimbotting....geez its like listening to Fox news. What spin on my words will you have next? Look I dont bhop because I dont feel I should. I honestly think its abusive and I take pride away from shotgunning your ass down anyway. Nor am I angry. However...I do not like hearing the new guy complain. I do not think that its helpful to anyone learning the game and I am sure that many people decided to quit playing rather than to stay because of bhopping.
<!--quoteo(post=1692591:date=Nov 6 2008, 01:47 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 6 2008, 01:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys are thinking way too much into this. Comparing NS to Chess? They two have barely anything alike. Yes I am in the "against bunny hop" camp, but this is being blown completely out of proportion. Bunny hop is a move mechanic. It's not perfect either. It is far from it even. The arguments have been repeated and they have been attacked more than enough to justify that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a chess player, I disagree. There are easy comparisons made not only between chess and NS, but between chess and nearly anything, really. (especially any RTS)
ps -- I love bunnyhopping, it's the only reason I play this game (not that I'm good at it), but I think an extremely easy compromise to make between keep it and trash it is to make it easier -- do the +movement solution and replace +jump with a built-in +5jump script (for a long time I was able to hop in Science and Industry, which has this feature, fairly decently, but have a ###### 400-topspeed hop in NS).
<!--quoteo(post=1693028:date=Nov 10 2008, 03:53 AM:name=nsmac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nsmac @ Nov 10 2008, 03:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So now I think your aimbotting....geez its like listening to Fox news. What spin on my words will you have next? Look I dont bhop because I dont feel I should. I honestly think its abusive and I take pride away from shotgunning your ass down anyway. Nor am I angry. However...<u>I do not like hearing the new guy complain.</u> I do not think that its helpful to anyone learning the game and I am sure that many people decided to quit playing rather than to stay because of bhopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now that you've figured out that your argument is terribly wrong you're shifting the blame towards "new players". Complaining about people being better then yourself due to bunnyhopping is exactly the same as complaining about people due to perceived aimbotting. Except you're worse than most other players. Most other players complain to admins to get the "hackers" banned, you instead create a scapegoat and attempt to get it banned from the game through the NS forums.
Here is a good piece of wisdom: It isn't the bunnyhopping that makes those players good, neither is their skill downloadable.
<!--quoteo(post=1693028:date=Nov 9 2008, 10:53 PM:name=nsmac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nsmac @ Nov 9 2008, 10:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...I do not like hearing the new guy complain. I do not think that its helpful to anyone learning the game and <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->I am sure that many people decided to quit playing rather than to stay because of bhopping<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cite an example?
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->I know many players who have kept playing NS for untold hours because of elements like bhop<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - Golden for instance spent a total of over 24 play hours in Zupe's second bhop map <b>in a single room</b>.
I don't know anyone who has quit because of it - I do see a lot of people migrating to other games simply because NS has lived the prime of its lifespan, that's just how game design works.
Never argue with a fool ....LISTEN now I am pissed. You are are defending a bad concept. You have not once listened to the FACT that the MAJORITY do not want bhopping in the game. You read into my words. You wave your magic mind wand and automatically assume you understand EVERYTHING. Im just trying to make the point that leveling the field will keep more ppl around. AND you are correct by having the game as is... kept all of the "EGO NEEDY PLAYERS" around. It really boils down to YOUR EGO! Im hoping that the dev team sees that far more people would enjoy the game by having come down to a TEAM effort. This is my last post on this. Obviously your needs are by far greater than the rest of us.
I haven't been on here in months, but I really think this bunny hopping, skill based movement speed thing is a negative part of the game. I think it is goofy, frustrating to use, anti-immersive, unattractive to new players, repulsive to casual players and ultimately it strongly detracts from team work.
I haven't read all the posts here, I admit, but I've read all the posts on other threads on the topic of this skill based movement factor. I think that if a game is going to include basic functions that can be augmented with practice, then the game might as well go all out and make it a theme because that way at least it will appeal to people who like that sort of thing. If a game is going to have a skill based movement system, then it stands to reason that there should be a skill based shooting system where a player can get a smaller cluster of shots by dealing with recoil, and have an added damage resistance by rotating their body so they only take flesh wounds instead of organ damage, and also a way to increase the rate of fire of their weapons, basically make it so that if a player knows the ins and outs of the game, that they become a 1-man army. Might as well make a game where a team of broken finger people stand no chance at all against a single twitch reflex master. Although if all this is going to be done, there is really no point in adding a map control based resource system, or any commander function, or any tech tree because all these things just clutter up a game with strategy and team work when really the point is an individual's mastery of bending the laws of the game, ie., the maximum movement rate or the accuracy of a light machine gun.
Many advocates of skill based movement claim "well I'm a dedicated player so I looked it up and now that I can do it, I think it is great. If you remove this mechanic, this will make the game more simple and newbies will be just as good as dedicated players". Well I think the same thing could be said of misplaced hit boxes... a new player will say "i shot that skulk 30 times, right in the face and it didn't die, my bullets seemed to just pass through it entirely" and if someone else said "well I'm a dedicated player so I looked it up and now that I can *aim for the invisible hitbox instead of the skulk model*, I think it is great. If you remove this mechanic, this will make the game more simple and newbies will be just as good as dedicated players" everyone would laugh at the guy for finding an obvious error in the game so much fun
In conclusion, I think bunny hopping would be a vary bad idea to include in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1693064:date=Nov 10 2008, 11:32 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Nov 10 2008, 11:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693064"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cite an example?
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->I know many players who have kept playing NS for untold hours because of elements like bhop<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - Golden for instance spent a total of over 24 play hours in Zupe's second bhop map <b>in a single room</b>.
I don't know anyone who has quit because of it - I do see a lot of people migrating to other games simply because NS has lived the prime of its lifespan, that's just how game design works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I bet most of the people who didn't like bhopping and left in part because of it didn't bother to stick around the forums to tell people about it.
Do you think that maybe most people played NS because of elements Not like bhopping? Perhaps the RTS elements attracted a lot of people to NS instead of lets say counter-strike or TFC, hm?
<!--quoteo(post=1693742:date=Nov 18 2008, 06:52 PM:name=devil-fire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(devil-fire @ Nov 18 2008, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I bet most of the people who didn't like bhopping and left in part because of it didn't bother to stick around the forums to tell people about it.
Do you think that maybe most people played NS because of elements Not like bhopping? Perhaps the RTS elements attracted a lot of people to NS instead of lets say counter-strike or TFC, hm?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, most people seem to post quite openly without having a second thoughs here. I'd have expected to see a lot more threads about if bhop was the reason for quitting.
I highly doubt bhop attracted many new players in the game, but the movement system sure made people stay in the game. Many of those people have been very dedicated and allowed NS to survive to this day.
Meanwhile ENSL still keeps going, although it probably should've folded at least a year ago due to the lack of new teams. There must be something right in NS if people are willing to dedicate to running the league year after year. I doubt the excellent movement system is the least of the crucial elements.
I am really tired of posting in this thread, but it is impossible to prove that bunny hoping either made people leave or stay. For all we know, the pro-bunny hoppers are right. Or maybe they are wrong and NS1 heavily suffered for having bunny hopping.
It really depends on who you ask. If someone dislikes bunny hop, he or she will say that people left over it. If someone likes bunny hop, he or she will say that people stayed over it. People have agendas to fulfill regarding this.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a game is going to have a skill based movement system, then it stands to reason that there should be a skill based shooting system where a player can get a smaller cluster of shots by dealing with recoil<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you do this, movement skill is canceled. Can you say counter strike in space?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and have an added damage resistance by rotating their body so they only take flesh wounds instead of organ damage,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh sort of like spy backstabs with the buggy hitboxes?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and also a way to increase the rate of fire of their weapons<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It exists already, but it is very marginal and you would never know the difference. Your gun actually shoots faster at 76fps than it does at 100 fps and shoots faster at 111fps than it does at 100fps for example.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->basically make it so that if a player knows the ins and outs of the game, that they become a 1-man army. Might as well make a game where a team of broken finger people stand no chance at all against a single twitch reflex master. Although if all this is going to be done, there is really no point in adding a map control based resource system, or any commander function, or any tech tree because all these things just clutter up a game with strategy and team work when really the point is an individual's mastery of bending the laws of the game, ie., the maximum movement rate or the accuracy of a light machine gun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because teams usually end up being balanced skill wise in the competitive community and strategy is what makes the difference. As a good commander, you can always find good marines to command and take advantage of. Yes, you would get destroyed by xen even if they didn't have a commander. What did you expect though? They have practiced a lot more than you have and they should be able to beat you just because of that factor. Turning players into identical statistic star craft units will quickly make every single fps player leave and never play again.
Comments
The Commander
Is it essential to make the game fun? No.
Will it be missed? Perhaps.
Is it a mechanic that should exist in a game 2008...2009...whenever NS2 is being released? No.
Wow! I guess Comm shouldn't be in NS2 either!
The Gorge
Is it essential to make the game fun? No.
Will it be missed? Perhaps.
Is it a mechanic that should exist in a game 2008...2009...whenever NS2 is being released? No.
How about the Onos?...
I think you get my point.
What I want to get across is the idea of changing something (entirely or partially) when it has problems and cannot be progressed further to solve those problems. Everything you described in your sarcastic remarks can be improved because fundamentally the mechanics of those ideas are malleable. The commander and gorge both have issues and they are being resolved in NS2. What can you really do to fix Bunny Hoping that can't be done better in creating new mechanics to fill the void in "skill"?
What most astounds me is that you took "Is it a mechanic that should exist in a game 2008...2009...whenever NS2 is being released?" so oddly. What I was getting at was when was the last time you saw a game have bunny hop that wasn't a port?
What I want to get across is the idea of changing something (entirely or partially) when it has problems and cannot be progressed further to solve those problems. Everything you described in your sarcastic remarks can be improved because fundamentally the mechanics of those ideas are malleable. The commander and gorge both have issues and they are being resolved in NS2. What can you really do to fix Bunny Hoping that can't be done better in creating new mechanics to fill the void in "skill"?
What most astounds me is that you took "Is it a mechanic that should exist in a game 2008...2009...whenever NS2 is being released?" so oddly. What I was getting at was when was the last time you saw a game have bunny hop that wasn't a port?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tribes, QuakeWorld, Quake II, Quake III Arena, Half-Life, Team Fortress Classic, War§ow, Enemy Territory Fortress, Kingpin: Life of Crime, Dystopia, Half-Life 2 and Battlefield 2. Probably alot more.
You have not stated WHY Bunnyhopping should be "fixed" or removed and have no real argument as to WHY it shouldn't stay in the game, other then some people don't like it
If your argument can't be stretched to the limits and still make any sense, it is false.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even simpler, if a mechanic can incite such outright division in the community, it should not be in there. The game should be there to unite people in play (stolen from the development team's mission goal) and the subject of what being discussed here is not doing that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Removing bunnyhopping will alienate more players than keeping it in. The players that are against it are just blowing smoke and trying to prove to themselves that they aren't worse than the players who can bunnyhop.
aimbotting = banned
aimbotting = no skill
bunnyhopping = skill
bunnyhopping =!= aimbotting
bunnyhopping = not banned
I've seen a dozen players who can bunny hop around an entire map but when it came to one on one they had nothing to bring to the table. I'm actually kind of shocked that this discussion is still going on. I thought it would have died out a month or so ago.
Why are we still talking about it? Can't we just move on to a better topic that won't destroy the community when its over?
The fact is NS2 will be NS2. Sure a lot of the game mechanics will be copied and modified, but they will be different in a variety of ways. I don't think the Devs are going to make the mistake of porting the bunny hopping system as it is over to NS2 exactly like it was. If they port it over at all its going to be different. What made Bunny Hopping, Bunny Hopping in NS1 isn't going to be present in NS2. Its going to be a different system. How do you feel about that? Is that going to change your decision to want to play NS2? What if they don't put a bunny hopping-like system in NS2 at all? Whatever are you going to do then?
If people are against bunny hopping - so what if they can't actually perform it? Its their opinion. Deal with it.
If people love bunny hopping - so what if it ruins gameplay for you. Its their opinion. Deal with it.
Now lets move on to something a little more worth everyones while?
Now when I joined this argument months ago (not the thread), I was completely against bhop. Now after watching people do it in vids and reading tutorials and trying it out myself (albeit I refuse to bind mouse wheel to jump, screw that ###### space is my jump button damn you), I don't want it gone. I just want it reasoned. Why the hell should a creature that looks like an alien frog move faster by jumping sideways than running forward? I could see your argument 'frogs jump', but they don't bloody jump sideways.
It's been said before, by me, above and around, but the BHop tactic is the only thing in NS that's outside of 3D simulation. It's like introducing a rule from... CHESS, into the simulation physics. It doesn't make sense, diagonal pawns taking over pieces somehow translates into how the engine deals with physics... see my point? It's beyond foreign, it's connectionless. There's nothing joining BHopping, as is, with 3D simulation and thus it becomes a specialized 'elite' tactic that creates these huge skill gaps that we want to AVOID. A game skill graph should look like this:
Skill
|`````````````````````````````0
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|______________________________ Time
A person gets into the game easily but it takes a lot of time to master, BUT even with years over another person, you're never good enough to dominate them 100 to 0.
As is, NS is like this:
Skill
|`````````````````````````0````
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|______________________________ Time
Pretty ######ed up ###### I say. A person starts playing, it takes a little while to get used to but soon they hit 'average' status. Then they play and play until something clicks and suddenly their skill skyrockets as they enter the 'elite' status. S'why games are always divided, pretty much straight down the line, between good players and average players instead of being a gradual mix of the two.
One of the reasons for this is weird little things that are hard to quantify, like BHopping, a ridiculously foreign technique that doesn't make any level of sense in 3D simulation that gives people a certain 'edge' that new players don't understand.
So for all you people who think it's purely a question of 'he can't do it, thus he complains', take a moment to read what I'm saying, and then read what you just said. I'm not trying to make the gameplay take less skill, just make that skill understandable to everyone, and thus something they can actually try and learn for themselves without having to do crazy ###### like bind jump to mousewheel or somehow wrap their minds around the concept that jumping sideways can make you move faster than jumping FORWARDS.
Accessibility man. BHop as is is anything but accessible to n00bs and even average players. I'm saying either adjust it so it's something a person can wrap their mind around and practise from the getgo (even if it's still just as hard to master), or scrap it as it's just another factor that creates the two rather large barriers to NS: first time play and gargantuan skill gaps.
This is actually a very good point. Bunnyhopping doesn't make that much of a difference in combat, it only makes a significant difference on the strategic level when you can get your players where you want them 70% faster. If you are getting killed by a bunnyhopping skulk, your aim is bad and you'd probably get killed by an ambushing skulk 2x faster. It just so happens that the players that know how to bunnyhop also have other relevant skills to back up their stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=1692618:date=Nov 6 2008, 12:29 PM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Nov 6 2008, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skill
|`````````````````````````````0
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|______________________________ Time
A person gets into the game easily but it takes a lot of time to master, BUT even with years over another person, you're never good enough to dominate them 100 to 0.
As is, NS is like this:
Skill
|`````````````````````````0````
|````````````````````````0`````
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|______________________________ Time
Pretty ######ed up ###### I say. A person starts playing, it takes a little while to get used to but soon they hit 'average' status. Then they play and play <b>until something clicks</b> and suddenly their skill skyrockets as they enter the 'elite' status. S'why games are always divided, pretty much straight down the line, between good players and average players instead of being a gradual mix of the two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That click is them saying "oh man, I don't want to be mediocre anymore, I want to improve" And then they start spending a lot of time on improving, hence the apparent jump in skill. The graph is still in fact:
Skill
|```````````````<!--coloro:#000080--><span style="color:#000080"><!--/coloro-->v<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->`````````````0
|```````````````0``````````````
|```<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->v<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->```0``````````````````````
|```0``````````````````````````
|`0````````````````````````````
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|______________________________ Time
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->v<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Mediocre player
<!--coloro:#000080--><span style="color:#000080"><!--/coloro-->v<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Mediocre player after practicing.
This makes the graph look like:
Skill
|`````````````````````````````0
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|```<!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->v<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->```````````````````````0``
|```0``````````````````````````
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|______________________________ Time
<!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->v<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - because most people there don't see how/don't want to improve.
Not at all, except for this post and the one quoted. Everything discussed above is 100% relevant to the argument.
sir this will never die
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|______________________________ Time
A person gets into the game easily but it takes a lot of time to master, BUT even with years over another person, you're never good enough to dominate them 100 to 0.
As is, NS is like this:
Skill
|`````````````````````````0````
|````````````````````````0`````
|```````````````````````0``````
|``````````````````````0```````
|````````````0`````````````````
|````0`````````````````````````
|```0``````````````````````````
|``0```````````````````````````
|______________________________ Time
Pretty ######ed up ###### I say. <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->A person starts playing, it takes a little while to get used to but soon they hit 'average' status. Then they play and play until something clicks and suddenly their skill skyrockets as they enter the 'elite' status.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't work that way. I'll explain what really happens even though you won't believe half of what I say.
Step 1: Player hears about NS, installs it, and begins raging that they aren't domining right away.
Step 2: Player presses "c" and beings thinking strategically.
Step 3: Player realizes that frags are subordinate to killing the hive and capping res nodes, their score takes a hit but will eventually rebound many times over because their motivation is now based on strategic objectives, and they will be putting themselves in much more advantageous positions in the coming months.
Step 4: Player beings to play either alien or marine with a focus on ambushing or aiming.
Step 5: Player either rages out of the game (probably to return), or learns to play at a semblance of decency.
Step 6: Player beings dominating public servers. Player gets cocky.
Step 7: Player joins a pickup game, nerdrages out of their mind because of the cognitive dissonance realized by the fact that all the skills they were learning until now were contingent upon bad players.
Step 8: Player rages out of the game again.
Step 9: Player returns to the game and begins studying the deeper aspects of play, perhaps joining an organization like NSLearn. Player learns new strategies and tactics with less holes (that do not require bad players to succeed).
Step 10: Player plays in CAL or ANSL until they get bored with the game.
Step 11a: Player rages out of the game due to lack of skilled opposition.
Step 11b: OR Player keeps playing despite there being no good players around anymore due to Step 11a.
Step 12: Players from Step 11a continue to rage out of the game, widening the lack of mediocre players and furthering the delusion of players who are still stuck in Step 8.
Step 13: The middle class of players slowly dissolves leaving an ever wider chasm of baddies and veterans (and pubstars who think they are veterans, who are generally the only real ######s of the game except for Noxolan).
Step 14: Eventually all of the skilled players will leave the game as their real lives progress, leaving only the players who are terrible.
Step 15: Finally, even the terrible players who still suffer from the delusion of their own skill will dissapate out of the game, leaving an empty husk and no community. This is the nature of a game, and sounds depressing even though it is actually good for the company who can then profit from the players' void of entertainment.
How else can you play a multiplayer videogame? By cooperating with the enemy team?
Hey guys, I'm tired of fighting! Let's be friends! Skulk rides for everyone.
I was talking about participating in clan play and all that.
Generally speaking, that's how the learning curve progresses if you want to keep improving. Public games will get you only that far due to
1.) Bad opposition
2.) The lack of organised possibilities to affect the outcome of the game.
3.) The huge mass of players leaves very little room for understanding the game flow, since the teams spread out everywhere anyway.
4.) Everything is random. It's quite hard to analyze your effort, since your teammates and the opponent may play incredibly stupid or relatively smart.
Of course it shouldn't be that way, but as long as people are more interested in blasting the skulks than thinking about the game logic I can't see much other choices for improving.
1.) Bad opposition
2.) The lack of organised possibilities to affect the outcome of the game.
3.) The huge mass of players leaves very little room for understanding the game flow, since the teams spread out everywhere anyway.
4.) Everything is random. It's quite hard to analyze your effort, since your teammates and the opponent may play incredibly stupid or relatively smart.
Of course it shouldn't be that way, but as long as people are more interested in blasting the skulks than thinking about the game logic I can't see much other choices for improving.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a shame that is has to be that way. I used to play regularly on a single server and found it to suit me just fine. But I never played competitively since I already had a pretty good experience. Enough for me to be interested in NS2.
I can't see any reason for not trying organised play. Right now its on a deadlock, since hardly anyone new starts playing it anymore. However, on NS2 you can most likely try playing some 6 v 6 (or whatever people play on NS2) on any skill and seriousness level and see if its more enjoyable.
You don't really need to try to improve or win anything, it's just the fact that organised play allows you to get to know people better and most likely get to know the game better too. A little like playing football with a bunch of friends regularly is often more fun than playing it with people you don't know.
You don't really need to try to improve or win anything, it's just the fact that organised play allows you to get to know people better and most likely get to know the game better too. A little like playing football with a bunch of friends regularly is often more fun than playing it with people you don't know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I had basically was pretty much organized play with half the people on the server, since I knew them fairly well. I never had a good schedule for gaming and I was mostly looking for a fix of fun. NS was fun even though it had its moments where it was aggravating. The initial learning curve was NS was huge and once I got past that, everything was good aside from commanding, which is extremely difficult to get a hand of without feeling guilty that you did a bad job. The game really needs to be softer on newer players though.
Which is way I am so interested in NS2 since it expands on most things that I didn't like in NS1. They are making it easier to pick up and play which should make it appeal to a much wider audience. Which is essential for a commercial game. I was extremely forgiving about a lot of the faults in NS1 because it was a mod and a damn good one at that.
I believe this would change over time, for you as well as anyone. For a time I played TF2 on random pubs and felt fine about semi-dominating random pubs, but after joining a community of gaming veterans and playing on their servers (where I was mid-tier on average), I could never go back.
Can't put my finger on it. Just that playing Spy on random pub and having 5 times the score of the closest person wasn't fun anymore.
Ok, follow this logic:
A player has been playing for a while, knows most of the ins and outs of the game, has good reflexes and aim. A newbie joins the game.
Who should win?
Yes, no marine should be able to hold up to 12 skulks attacking at the same time, but 12 skulks almost never attack a single marine at the same time. NS games at the pub level are usually just a compilation of lightning fast 1:1s or 1:2s. So who should be winning, Mustang or NSPlayer?
Also, it should be noted that the player out dominating in the field is helpless without a good commander to keep him supplied and provide divine intervention (well aimed meds in combat) once in a while.
The problem here is that gorges have too much health, it is true. It shouldn't take a clip to kill a gorge. But then again, no matter how you fight, you will almost always be in advantageous position when fighting gorges, just block its way out as you run up to it. You shouldn't need a strategy guide if you've played this game for more than a month.
Also can someone find out the movement speed of a gorge and a skulk so we can test the hypothesis that celerity gorges can bhop faster than celerity skulks can run. Must be a 3.0/3.1 change.
+movement is welcomed, because typing a script takes no relevant skill, nor does it add depth. Bunnyhopping takes relevant skill and adds depth and shouldn't be obscured. Of course you wouldn't understand the depth because you don't have any idea what we're talking about. Learn it sometime <u>and then</u> argue.
Wait, I've seen this argument before, anyone else notice it?
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I'm angry people are better than me, they must be aimbotting.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So now I think your aimbotting....geez its like listening to Fox news. What spin on my words will you have next? Look I dont bhop because I dont feel I should. I honestly think its abusive and I take pride away from shotgunning your ass down anyway. Nor am I angry. However...I do not like hearing the new guy complain. I do not think that its helpful to anyone learning the game and I am sure that many people decided to quit playing rather than to stay because of bhopping.
As a chess player, I disagree. There are easy comparisons made not only between chess and NS, but between chess and nearly anything, really. (especially any RTS)
ps -- I love bunnyhopping, it's the only reason I play this game (not that I'm good at it), but I think an extremely easy compromise to make between keep it and trash it is to make it easier -- do the +movement solution and replace +jump with a built-in +5jump script (for a long time I was able to hop in Science and Industry, which has this feature, fairly decently, but have a ###### 400-topspeed hop in NS).
Now that you've figured out that your argument is terribly wrong you're shifting the blame towards "new players". Complaining about people being better then yourself due to bunnyhopping is exactly the same as complaining about people due to perceived aimbotting. Except you're worse than most other players. Most other players complain to admins to get the "hackers" banned, you instead create a scapegoat and attempt to get it banned from the game through the NS forums.
Here is a good piece of wisdom: It isn't the bunnyhopping that makes those players good, neither is their skill downloadable.
Cite an example?
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->I know many players who have kept playing NS for untold hours because of elements like bhop<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - Golden for instance spent a total of over 24 play hours in Zupe's second bhop map <b>in a single room</b>.
I don't know anyone who has quit because of it - I do see a lot of people migrating to other games simply because NS has lived the prime of its lifespan, that's just how game design works.
I haven't read all the posts here, I admit, but I've read all the posts on other threads on the topic of this skill based movement factor. I think that if a game is going to include basic functions that can be augmented with practice, then the game might as well go all out and make it a theme because that way at least it will appeal to people who like that sort of thing. If a game is going to have a skill based movement system, then it stands to reason that there should be a skill based shooting system where a player can get a smaller cluster of shots by dealing with recoil, and have an added damage resistance by rotating their body so they only take flesh wounds instead of organ damage, and also a way to increase the rate of fire of their weapons, basically make it so that if a player knows the ins and outs of the game, that they become a 1-man army. Might as well make a game where a team of broken finger people stand no chance at all against a single twitch reflex master. Although if all this is going to be done, there is really no point in adding a map control based resource system, or any commander function, or any tech tree because all these things just clutter up a game with strategy and team work when really the point is an individual's mastery of bending the laws of the game, ie., the maximum movement rate or the accuracy of a light machine gun.
Many advocates of skill based movement claim "well I'm a dedicated player so I looked it up and now that I can do it, I think it is great. If you remove this mechanic, this will make the game more simple and newbies will be just as good as dedicated players". Well I think the same thing could be said of misplaced hit boxes... a new player will say "i shot that skulk 30 times, right in the face and it didn't die, my bullets seemed to just pass through it entirely" and if someone else said "well I'm a dedicated player so I looked it up and now that I can *aim for the invisible hitbox instead of the skulk model*, I think it is great. If you remove this mechanic, this will make the game more simple and newbies will be just as good as dedicated players" everyone would laugh at the guy for finding an obvious error in the game so much fun
In conclusion, I think bunny hopping would be a vary bad idea to include in NS2.
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->I know many players who have kept playing NS for untold hours because of elements like bhop<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - Golden for instance spent a total of over 24 play hours in Zupe's second bhop map <b>in a single room</b>.
I don't know anyone who has quit because of it - I do see a lot of people migrating to other games simply because NS has lived the prime of its lifespan, that's just how game design works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I bet most of the people who didn't like bhopping and left in part because of it didn't bother to stick around the forums to tell people about it.
Do you think that maybe most people played NS because of elements Not like bhopping? Perhaps the RTS elements attracted a lot of people to NS instead of lets say counter-strike or TFC, hm?
Do you think that maybe most people played NS because of elements Not like bhopping? Perhaps the RTS elements attracted a lot of people to NS instead of lets say counter-strike or TFC, hm?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, most people seem to post quite openly without having a second thoughs here. I'd have expected to see a lot more threads about if bhop was the reason for quitting.
I highly doubt bhop attracted many new players in the game, but the movement system sure made people stay in the game. Many of those people have been very dedicated and allowed NS to survive to this day.
Meanwhile ENSL still keeps going, although it probably should've folded at least a year ago due to the lack of new teams. There must be something right in NS if people are willing to dedicate to running the league year after year. I doubt the excellent movement system is the least of the crucial elements.
It really depends on who you ask. If someone dislikes bunny hop, he or she will say that people left over it. If someone likes bunny hop, he or she will say that people stayed over it. People have agendas to fulfill regarding this.
If you do this, movement skill is canceled. Can you say counter strike in space?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and have an added damage resistance by rotating their body so they only take flesh wounds instead of organ damage,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh sort of like spy backstabs with the buggy hitboxes?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and also a way to increase the rate of fire of their weapons<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It exists already, but it is very marginal and you would never know the difference. Your gun actually shoots faster at 76fps than it does at 100 fps and shoots faster at 111fps than it does at 100fps for example.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->basically make it so that if a player knows the ins and outs of the game, that they become a 1-man army. Might as well make a game where a team of broken finger people stand no chance at all against a single twitch reflex master. Although if all this is going to be done, there is really no point in adding a map control based resource system, or any commander function, or any tech tree because all these things just clutter up a game with strategy and team work when really the point is an individual's mastery of bending the laws of the game, ie., the maximum movement rate or the accuracy of a light machine gun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because teams usually end up being balanced skill wise in the competitive community and strategy is what makes the difference. As a good commander, you can always find good marines to command and take advantage of. Yes, you would get destroyed by xen even if they didn't have a commander. What did you expect though? They have practiced a lot more than you have and they should be able to beat you just because of that factor. Turning players into identical statistic star craft units will quickly make every single fps player leave and never play again.