EDIT: I mean this in all seriousness and lightheartedness. I think a skulk with webby appendages for air control would be bad-sass and give some explanatory power to the mechanism, even though to me the issue is secondary to gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1684850:date=Jul 30 2008, 04:26 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Jul 30 2008, 04:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It can make sense to look left and jump right... just take this guy, for example...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you gain speed by looking in the <b>same</b> direction as you strafe.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyK1LTfLXiM" target="_blank">This wonderful insight into forum discussions</a> really reminds me of where this thread is going. I suggest either a lock, or everybody try really, really hard to not say anything offensive, completely stupid, or anything so off-topic that they resort to critizing someone else with no factual evidence to back it up.
<!--quoteo(post=1684829:date=Jul 30 2008, 11:34 AM:name=Leon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leon @ Jul 30 2008, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->then what fits the role of the skulk, since you designed it? face it. you can't bhop and you're miffed about it
go ###### and play MMO's for ambiance and immersion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->MMOs for immersion? That seems contradictory to me. But you're right in that a multiplayer game isn't built for immersion. That's primarily the realm of singleplayer games. However, it's not nearly the best argument against bhopping.
The more I think about this and the arguments I read, the more I think it shouldn't be in NS2. Pro-bhop arguments so far are weak and flawed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're confusing "intuitive" with "easy".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No. That's why I wrote "unintuitive" instead of "easy".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is, as Soylent_green so elegantly communicated, an intended feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sort of. It's a hold-over from a physics code over sight that COULD be described as a bug if it wasn't adopted at birth. But even though it plays well in some other games, I'm not sure it really belongs here. This is a team action strategy game, and bhopping only lends itself to a small part of the "action" portion, but is still a variable which causes an unmanageable balance issue in certain hands. It's amazing to see, but it's still unreasonable to see one individual dominate in a game touted for it's teamwork and strategy. How shameful. And worse, to see others insulted because they've never heard of it, can't do it, or do it well. (i humbly fall in the last category, no doubt; though i can fare fine in a straight corridor and don't script... it might be my deep spacebar for all i know, but i have a little difficulty timing the jumps despite great timing in other areas of gaming)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but wiggling your mouse left/right and jumping right/left to move forward faster is just far too obscure and foreign.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Agreed. Even after years of doing it. It's unintuitive. I want to press forward to go forward in my games, please.
Lastly, it's not a unique "feature". Tons of games have real bhopping in them... mostly quake based games. Some games highlight bhopping, and I encourage those who love doing it to go play those. Something like Kreedz Clmbing. Very cool stuff. Obviously NS isn't the only game in the world. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1684870:date=Jul 30 2008, 08:59 PM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PseudoKnight @ Jul 30 2008, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The more I think about this and the arguments I read, the more I think it shouldn't be in NS2. Pro-bhop arguments so far are weak and flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets not forget that if Bunny hopping IS included as a 'feature', it probably won't take very long for a plugin to come along that disables it... so there's always that.
<!--quoteo(post=1684870:date=Jul 30 2008, 09:59 PM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PseudoKnight @ Jul 30 2008, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sort of. It's a hold-over from a physics code over sight that COULD be described as a bug if it wasn't adopted at birth. But even though it plays well in some other games, I'm not sure it really belongs here. This is a team action strategy game, and bhopping only lends itself to a small part of the "action" portion, but is still a variable which causes an unmanageable balance issue in certain hands. It's amazing to see, but it's still unreasonable to see one individual dominate in a game touted for it's teamwork and strategy. How shameful. And worse, to see others insulted because they've never heard of it, can't do it, or do it well.
Lastly, it's not a unique "feature". Tons of games have real bhopping in them... mostly quake based games. Some games highlight bhopping, and I encourage those who love doing it to go play those. Something like Kreedz Clmbing. Very cool stuff. Obviously NS isn't the only game in the world. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, bhopping was accidental at first, but kept in intentionally, not purely one way or the other.
Here's my 2 cents. Bhopping adds welcome depth and skill to the game. Some marines can aim with godlike accuracy, and are nearly impossible to take down. With even an LMG they can down skulks and even lerks with ease. I see bhopping is the flip side of that coin. On the other hand, bhopping makes no sense as it is not exactly an obvious skill to master like aiming is. Also, you say you dont like seeing one player dominate, but I dont think that happens so much with any bhopping skulks, as with amazing marines.
I don't like bhop, but it's good for aliens/the game. I think there's probably something better out there, but if no other solutions come up, I don't mind having it in NS2.
Frostymoose makes a good point regarding the current role of bunny hopping. It's part of the assymetrical nature of the game. I mean, I'm going to call it the Indiana Jones problem. Some crazy nutjob is running at you with a sword, what do you do? You take your gun and shoot him. Right now bunny hopping just lets us run up to Indy a bit faster is all.
The trick in NS2 is to have the crazy guy kill Indy somehow.
Let's look at the problem in a different light.
If the crazy guy came up from behind Indy but out of the nearby crowd, hence having half the distance to cross, he'd have a better chance again. This goes back to the "ambiance" of maps and map design in general. The ideal skulk map is tight with lots of hiding spots (so that even good marines can't check all of them all the time.)
But then another problem turns up. Fades need room. They can't be getting caught on walls, because their design as it is relies on them moving around really fast. So thus, maps need to be open. And therefore skulks need to play like fades. It's an eternal loop. (It also goes in part with my idea in the I&S forum a way that would make the fade more skulk like.)
<!--quoteo(post=1684870:date=Jul 31 2008, 02:59 AM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PseudoKnight @ Jul 31 2008, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's amazing to see, but it's still unreasonable to see one individual dominate in a game touted for it's teamwork and strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you're referring to the public games, I can't see any teamwork or strategy being involved. The real problem there is IMHO that people are quite confused with the game and can't really communicate and co-operate enough in the random public enviroment. That's probably worthy another discussion in another thread.
Most bhoppers would be _easily_ countered if people worked together. It's _5_ bullets hitting the hopper even if there are only 2 marines shooting at him. On average reg that's probably 10-12 bullets per marine aimed towards the skulk. In addition, you can hear him coming and position yourself nicely on some open area.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the crazy guy came up from behind Indy but out of the nearby crowd, hence having half the distance to cross, he'd have a better chance again. This goes back to the "ambiance" of maps and map design in general. The ideal skulk map is tight with lots of hiding spots (so that even good marines can't check all of them all the time.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Veil is probably the only map that hasn't got a huge amount of hiding spots. The problems is that not every area of the map is packed with obstacles and tight corridors. Now, if people were able to communicate a bit, parasite and predict the marine targets, they could actually intercept the marines before they reach the few relatively safe areas of the map. Right now on average european pub very few people communicate about the marine movement and I seem to be almost the only one parasiting them either. No wonder the ambushing gets a little difficult at that point.
With parasite: For example on you can see a capper moving from west access to Waste. Your call could be to intercept in comp lab(?) (2 decent spots and a the doorway in general at least), intercept in the waste doorway, wait in the waste area (3 decent spots I can think of, one more if you hop from the top of the big pillar to the node) or ask a lerk to pay a visit. Most likely you could get a frag even in there were 2 or 3 rines. With bhop I couldn't most likely get any unless I can surprise them in a corner.
Don't assume my reasoning Leon. While it's true I don't do the NS BHop, my reasoning was because of the reason it existed, an accepted engine exploit.
For example, the AWP in CS. Anyone who starts playing CS/CS:S for the first time today can see how broken a gun the AWP is (I personally always wanted a simple price increase on the weapon), which is why half the servers out there put a ban on it. Now the leet CS players who've been around since day one and have mastered the gun say the new players or the cynics (me), are just ###### who can't learn. Untrue. I am a very good sniper and a very good CS player, but I refuse to use a weapon that was kept simply because people got attached to it and people hate change.
Now, NS BHopping ain't exactly a revolutionary talent that allows skulks to be mad killing machines, like a good quickswitcher/awper in CS, but the concept is the same. It was kept around because a better alternative was not agreed upon, halfly because "leet" players didn't want it changed. I'm not saying NS BHopping is a game breaking thing, or screws with the gameplay royally like the awp, it's really a small thing, but my point is to make clear the NS BHop's nature, not its severity.
I would like an alternative that fits into 'intended game design' and 'makes some form of sense', but I'm not going to burn a church to the ground if NS2 still has the same kinda bhopping.
In the same way a player can get very good at alien movement, they can also get very good at aiming with their gun. It goes both ways. In the end, if someones better than you, they are likely to kill you.
Quite simply, if bunny hopping wasn't in Natural Selection, the game would not be anywhere near as successful. I know i speak for a lot of people when i say that the movement is one of the most appealing aspects of NS.
I wouldn't play NS if i didnt enjoy the fluid intuitive movement so much. It feels so good.
bhop is fun to do and gives you a speed boost, but the bottom line is, everyone that can bhop suddenly feels like he just discovered some secret ubercool gameplay feature, where in reality it is just a cheap, bad looking glitch on the strafe behaviour implementation.
Implementing bhop in the NS2 engine would be a ridiculous joke and pathetic excuse for not coming up with better ideas as how to make the skulks movement more interesting, fun and challenging at the same time. For example, UTs double key hit strafe combos are a start, here is another idea: Implement movement combo rewards. I.e. if you walk towards a marine and you jump on a wall you will receive a speed boost when detaching from the wall again.
Note: I actually like bunny hopping and do it myself!
DISCLAIMER: THIS POST DOES NOT CONTAIN ANY PERSONAL INSULTS.
I'll sum this thread up.
It's chock full of people who failed at bhopping or never even tried to learn. Failure to understand bhopping is the problem, not bhopping. It's a movement tool, it sucks in CQB. Bhopping gets you to places faster, most often it doesn't get you kills. It's really easy to shoot a bhopping skulk. It's a bug, but was intentionally kept by the devs. It probably won't even be the same (implementation wise in NS2). You don't need scripts to bhop. You don't need a godlike computer to bhop. There are tons of guides that can teach you how to do it.
If the skulk is gonna be an aerodynamic rabbit, make it more controllable and traditional. I say BHopping should be allowed to work in all directions (not necessarily backwards). This would negate the ridiculousness of aiming left/jumping right then aiming right/jumping left. It doesn't need to be easier for timing, so it can still require split second timing (or for a lot of you a mouse wheel), but the whole "sin wave" movement mechanic is just silly.
Silly in that there is absolutely no connection, anywhere, anyhow in the mind that looking left/jumping right then looking right/jumping left will make you move faster. Like I've said and everyone has said before, it's extremely obscure and foreign. It's like asking someone playing a skateboarding game to go backwards when moving uphill so they'll go up the hill faster (and then turn around when at the climax of the hill so you'll go faster down the hill, blah blah). That = silly. NS BHopping as is = silly.
Blink and charging require an action of point and click at the sacrifice of energy. That makes a degree of sense. Expel energy with an alien ability to move in an aimed direction, I see no problem with this.
I like Bhopping as it definitely balances the game out when it comes to longer corridors. But it is a bit awkward. NovusAnimus brought up a good point that it requires energy to go faster. If bhopping took up energy it would be better. Or if jumping in general too up energy similar to how lerks take energy to fly.
I also like the idea of wall jumping bonus but again if it is enabled add some kind of energy cost.
Well I wouldn't want BHopping to take up energy, or if did, that ALL jumping took energy, but just a little bit, just enough to make sure people didn't spam jump constantly all the time.
so you find the input method needed to bhop silly...i think everyone agrees with that? its has to be that way in ns1 because its a bug, i dont think anyone ever had any intentions to make bhopping (input method i.e. left right strafe keys & mouse left / right) the same way it is now for ns2
bhopping is restricted by map architecture, steps, ladders, vents, bumps, tight hallways. its loud as hell and only effective as a means of transportation. its hard to see a need for a limit on jumping when its basically only useable in open areas when no (edit->) *good* marines are around. like every competitive player has said - its really easier to kill bhopping skulks in close quarters than one who employs other movement tricks.
<!--quoteo(post=1684943:date=Jul 31 2008, 12:15 PM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Jul 31 2008, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This would negate the ridiculousness of aiming left/jumping right then aiming right/jumping left.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> clearly you have little understanding of the concept of air control. it's amazing how strongly you oppose air control/bhop yet put zero effort into understanding its workings and merits.
strafing in the <b>same</b> direction as you look will net speed gain, not the opposite.
<!--quoteo(post=1684968:date=Jul 31 2008, 04:39 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Jul 31 2008, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->clearly you have little understanding of the concept of air control. it's amazing how strongly you oppose air control/bhop yet put zero effort into understanding its workings and merits.
strafing in the <b>same</b> direction as you look will net speed gain, not the opposite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FINALLY someone addressed this!!
And, NovusAnimus, if you DID look into the mechanics you'd see that the real functions of bunny hopping originate from the idea that by STRAFING and TURNING in the SAME direction SOMEHOW (which doesn't really matter) you gain acceleration, then you would see that it is very intuitive to be able to link these bursts of acceleration with the concept of air control..
All you need is to understand the concept and suddenly the movement makes sense.. Just because the mechanic doesn't exist in our universe doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense..
And again, it's not like you are spamming random button combinations to get FORWARD momentum!! You're constantly correcting the angle and direction of your player to DIRECT the SIDEWAYS acceleration!!
Flip, i was 14 when i figured this out, and i'm no physics genious.
EDIT: I'd also like to add that nothing in ANY OTHER game i've played has come close to the feeling of satisfaction of performing/learning to bunny hop.
<!--quoteo(post=1685009:date=Aug 1 2008, 01:02 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Aug 1 2008, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the fade I meant that it doesn't rely that much on the bhop mechanics. Anybody able to hit something with the blink can do it, it doesn't necessarily take the skill to gain rapid speed by bhop. I guess I've misjudged the effect of the curving though. <b><!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->I do it quite a lot by the nature, but haven't really considered how big the effect really is.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This just happened to come up in the other thread, but I wanted to make a point here about how <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->intuitive<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> airspeed control and infact bunny hop style mechanics <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->naturally<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> become when you make the jumping mechanic less fiddly (ie quake style jumping).
I hope he won't take offense at my saying this but I've never seen Bacillus playing in any form of competitive environment (if he has, that's my lack of observation).
But the thing is, even with no competitive play, he blink-hops and uses airspeed control to increase his chances of winning <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->without even thinking about it<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.
<b>Isn't this the real issue here?</b> And the real reason a development team would consider removing it?
If it is, then it seems, by the rereading of this thread, that it would be easily implemented (a friend of mine has already done it in Source, and I can't imagine it would be so much harder in Max's engine). And totally worth it. No one I know complains about bhop in quake, that's largely because the interface is so much smoother.
I firmly believe that the consistent negativity that seems to linger is the result primarily of a clunky interface- not a need for a simpler game.
And, NovusAnimus, if you DID look into the mechanics you'd see that the real functions of bunny hopping originate from the idea that by STRAFING and TURNING in the SAME direction SOMEHOW (which doesn't really matter) you gain acceleration, then you would see that it is very intuitive to be able to link these bursts of acceleration with the concept of air control..
All you need is to understand the concept and suddenly the movement makes sense.. Just because the mechanic doesn't exist in our universe doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The fact that it's only obvious when you are doing it and that it is not intuitive to instintively just do it without anyone instructing you how it must be done is why it is unintuitive. I cba to reiterate my point <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=104609&view=findpost&p=1685022" target="_blank">so I'll just link it</a>.
I personally disagree, but only because i think i picked up bunny hopping pretty quickly once i had read about its origins, how it all worked.
Like i said before, once i understood the concept of air control and chaining these strafes together it sort of clicked and all i had to do was practise moving around the maps.
You may be right. Maybe bunny hopping isn't intuitive. But, like other people have said, alot of skills that require finesse won't come by instinct, or at least, not for everyone..
Take playing an instrument, for example, the saxophone.. Sure the basic idea of wiggling your fingers and blowing into a tube of metal makes some basic sense. Right ? How about when you try and extend the range into the upper octaves ? That kind of stuff require all these freaky deaky finger combinations in combination with changing the shape of your mouth/tounge/lips.
You can't possibly tell me that comes instinctively, and yet it's something that can become second nature with practise.
If everything was dumbed down to the point where EVERYONE was able to do all these specialist type skills then there'd be no sense of satisfaction when one finally decided to get off his lazy behind and practise something.
I personally don't think the game should be culled in these ares just because not EVERYONE can INSTINCTLY know every facet of the game..
Bunny hopping offers that chance to put a bit of time and effort into learning something that doesn't even break game balance, but more increases the emphasis on play style.
Heck, what other games are there where an individuals style can actually be recognised BESIDES gear/stats ?? I can spot the difference between my mates because of the way they bunny hop and leap etc.
There are plenty of places to learn to bunny hop, im pretty sure theres a website soley dedicated to teaching it. The most UW would have to do is include a link or a more stylised and specific guide, maybe a clip or two, and then anyone who wanted to put the time and effort into it could.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And, NovusAnimus, if you DID look into the mechanics you'd see that the real functions of bunny hopping originate from the idea that by STRAFING and TURNING in the SAME direction SOMEHOW (which doesn't really matter) you gain acceleration, then you would see that it is very intuitive to be able to link these bursts of acceleration with the concept of air control..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but this is bull****.
You dont gain speed by turning and strafing in the same direction - NO you dont. You are in general faster when you strafe and move forward. You can perfectly see that as a cloaked walking skulk. Walk forward and strafe at the same time, you will lose some of your cloak.
Point is, bunnyhopping does not accelerate you at the moment you jump, you are just faster because in the air you constantly "move forward" at the speed you were jumping and then you strafe while you are in the air, giving you extra speed. You can also exploit this strafe bug by walking next to a wall, strafing against it. Also, you can walk almost in a line and be faster than everyone else by hitting strafe left and right in alternation very fast.
So, now tell me how is that intuitive? Its not so stop posting this rubbish.
Sorry, been wording it wrong, but then you all got me second guessing myself on how BHopping works, so I watched some videos and read some faqs. I was right more or less, just positioning the words incorrectly. My bad my bad.
And upon watching the videos I can see why you people are so attached to the mechanic, but that doesn't change the obscure and foreign nature of it. Really, just make the forward key do the same thing and I'd have no problem, but only being allowed to use left/right to gain a forward momentum is crazy.
Also, for those who think I'm running a crusade against this ######: I'm really just bored at work and have nothing to do besides troll these forums, sorry if I'm coming off a nazi.
<!--quoteo(post=1685036:date=Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(w0dk4 @ Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You dont gain speed by turning and strafing in the same direction - NO you dont.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"An acceleration is experienced in-air while uniformly turning in the same direction as the player is strafing."
and
"The speed at which one can bunnyhop is effectively limited by the turning radius."
Sideways movement speed is 'uncapped', and combing this with turning grants acceleration. Once you figure this out, AND the idea that you can change direction mid-air, putting the two together is actually quite logical.
Logical math wise for movement and physics, purely on the programming side. Course it's logical, it wouldn't be possible if it weren't logical, that's the whole idea behind programming. The problem is that it isn't logical from a gameplay perspective, a DESIGN side, to have jumping left/right be a faster way of moving forward in a 3D fps environment.
Still, I think it would be highly ironic selling this as a gameplay feature. Im all for more complex, unique movement abilities for aliens, but for gorges sake no bhop!
Comments
<img src="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/images/061213-flying.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
EDIT: I mean this in all seriousness and lightheartedness. I think a skulk with webby appendages for air control would be bad-sass and give some explanatory power to the mechanism, even though to me the issue is secondary to gameplay.
you gain speed by looking in the <b>same</b> direction as you strafe.
I suggest either a lock, or everybody try really, really hard to not say anything offensive, completely stupid, or anything so off-topic that they resort to critizing someone else with no factual evidence to back it up.
K Thanks.
face it. you can't bhop and you're miffed about it
go ###### and play MMO's for ambiance and immersion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->MMOs for immersion? That seems contradictory to me. But you're right in that a multiplayer game isn't built for immersion. That's primarily the realm of singleplayer games. However, it's not nearly the best argument against bhopping.
The more I think about this and the arguments I read, the more I think it shouldn't be in NS2. Pro-bhop arguments so far are weak and flawed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're confusing "intuitive" with "easy".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No. That's why I wrote "unintuitive" instead of "easy".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is, as Soylent_green so elegantly communicated, an intended feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sort of. It's a hold-over from a physics code over sight that COULD be described as a bug if it wasn't adopted at birth. But even though it plays well in some other games, I'm not sure it really belongs here. This is a team action strategy game, and bhopping only lends itself to a small part of the "action" portion, but is still a variable which causes an unmanageable balance issue in certain hands. It's amazing to see, but it's still unreasonable to see one individual dominate in a game touted for it's teamwork and strategy. How shameful. And worse, to see others insulted because they've never heard of it, can't do it, or do it well. (i humbly fall in the last category, no doubt; though i can fare fine in a straight corridor and don't script... it might be my deep spacebar for all i know, but i have a little difficulty timing the jumps despite great timing in other areas of gaming)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but wiggling your mouse left/right and jumping right/left to move forward faster is just far too obscure and foreign.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Agreed. Even after years of doing it. It's unintuitive. I want to press forward to go forward in my games, please.
Lastly, it's not a unique "feature". Tons of games have real bhopping in them... mostly quake based games. Some games highlight bhopping, and I encourage those who love doing it to go play those. Something like Kreedz Clmbing. Very cool stuff. Obviously NS isn't the only game in the world. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Lets not forget that if Bunny hopping IS included as a 'feature', it probably won't take very long for a plugin to come along that disables it... so there's always that.
Lastly, it's not a unique "feature". Tons of games have real bhopping in them... mostly quake based games. Some games highlight bhopping, and I encourage those who love doing it to go play those. Something like Kreedz Clmbing. Very cool stuff. Obviously NS isn't the only game in the world. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, bhopping was accidental at first, but kept in intentionally, not purely one way or the other.
Here's my 2 cents. Bhopping adds welcome depth and skill to the game. Some marines can aim with godlike accuracy, and are nearly impossible to take down. With even an LMG they can down skulks and even lerks with ease. I see bhopping is the flip side of that coin. On the other hand, bhopping makes no sense as it is not exactly an obvious skill to master like aiming is. Also, you say you dont like seeing one player dominate, but I dont think that happens so much with any bhopping skulks, as with amazing marines.
I don't like bhop, but it's good for aliens/the game. I think there's probably something better out there, but if no other solutions come up, I don't mind having it in NS2.
The trick in NS2 is to have the crazy guy kill Indy somehow.
Let's look at the problem in a different light.
If the crazy guy came up from behind Indy but out of the nearby crowd, hence having half the distance to cross, he'd have a better chance again. This goes back to the "ambiance" of maps and map design in general. The ideal skulk map is tight with lots of hiding spots (so that even good marines can't check all of them all the time.)
But then another problem turns up. Fades need room. They can't be getting caught on walls, because their design as it is relies on them moving around really fast. So thus, maps need to be open. And therefore skulks need to play like fades. It's an eternal loop. (It also goes in part with my idea in the I&S forum a way that would make the fade more skulk like.)
If you're referring to the public games, I can't see any teamwork or strategy being involved. The real problem there is IMHO that people are quite confused with the game and can't really communicate and co-operate enough in the random public enviroment. That's probably worthy another discussion in another thread.
Most bhoppers would be _easily_ countered if people worked together. It's _5_ bullets hitting the hopper even if there are only 2 marines shooting at him. On average reg that's probably 10-12 bullets per marine aimed towards the skulk. In addition, you can hear him coming and position yourself nicely on some open area.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the crazy guy came up from behind Indy but out of the nearby crowd, hence having half the distance to cross, he'd have a better chance again. This goes back to the "ambiance" of maps and map design in general. The ideal skulk map is tight with lots of hiding spots (so that even good marines can't check all of them all the time.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Veil is probably the only map that hasn't got a huge amount of hiding spots. The problems is that not every area of the map is packed with obstacles and tight corridors. Now, if people were able to communicate a bit, parasite and predict the marine targets, they could actually intercept the marines before they reach the few relatively safe areas of the map. Right now on average european pub very few people communicate about the marine movement and I seem to be almost the only one parasiting them either. No wonder the ambushing gets a little difficult at that point.
With parasite:
For example on you can see a capper moving from west access to Waste. Your call could be to intercept in comp lab(?) (2 decent spots and a the doorway in general at least), intercept in the waste doorway, wait in the waste area (3 decent spots I can think of, one more if you hop from the top of the big pillar to the node) or ask a lerk to pay a visit. Most likely you could get a frag even in there were 2 or 3 rines. With bhop I couldn't most likely get any unless I can surprise them in a corner.
For example, the AWP in CS. Anyone who starts playing CS/CS:S for the first time today can see how broken a gun the AWP is (I personally always wanted a simple price increase on the weapon), which is why half the servers out there put a ban on it. Now the leet CS players who've been around since day one and have mastered the gun say the new players or the cynics (me), are just ###### who can't learn. Untrue. I am a very good sniper and a very good CS player, but I refuse to use a weapon that was kept simply because people got attached to it and people hate change.
Now, NS BHopping ain't exactly a revolutionary talent that allows skulks to be mad killing machines, like a good quickswitcher/awper in CS, but the concept is the same. It was kept around because a better alternative was not agreed upon, halfly because "leet" players didn't want it changed. I'm not saying NS BHopping is a game breaking thing, or screws with the gameplay royally like the awp, it's really a small thing, but my point is to make clear the NS BHop's nature, not its severity.
I would like an alternative that fits into 'intended game design' and 'makes some form of sense', but I'm not going to burn a church to the ground if NS2 still has the same kinda bhopping.
Quite simply, if bunny hopping wasn't in Natural Selection, the game would not be anywhere near as successful. I know i speak for a lot of people when i say that the movement is one of the most appealing aspects of NS.
I wouldn't play NS if i didnt enjoy the fluid intuitive movement so much. It feels so good.
Implementing bhop in the NS2 engine would be a ridiculous joke and pathetic excuse for not coming up with better ideas as how to make the skulks movement more interesting, fun and challenging at the same time.
For example, UTs double key hit strafe combos are a start, here is another idea:
Implement movement combo rewards. I.e. if you walk towards a marine and you jump on a wall you will receive a speed boost when detaching from the wall again.
Note: I actually like bunny hopping and do it myself!
I'll sum this thread up.
It's chock full of people who failed at bhopping or never even tried to learn.
Failure to understand bhopping is the problem, not bhopping.
It's a movement tool, it sucks in CQB. Bhopping gets you to places faster, most often it doesn't get you kills.
It's really easy to shoot a bhopping skulk.
It's a bug, but was intentionally kept by the devs.
It probably won't even be the same (implementation wise in NS2).
You don't need scripts to bhop.
You don't need a godlike computer to bhop.
There are tons of guides that can teach you how to do it.
Solution: Make it easier to do in NS2.
The dev's made a conscious decision to leave it in the game. I agree though, on the premise that it should be made easier to learn/utilize.
Blink and charging require an action of point and click at the sacrifice of energy. That makes a degree of sense. Expel energy with an alien ability to move in an aimed direction, I see no problem with this.
NovusAnimus brought up a good point that it requires energy to go faster. If bhopping took up energy it would be better. Or if jumping in general too up energy similar to how lerks take energy to fly.
I also like the idea of wall jumping bonus but again if it is enabled add some kind of energy cost.
bhopping is restricted by map architecture, steps, ladders, vents, bumps, tight hallways. its loud as hell and only effective as a means of transportation. its hard to see a need for a limit on jumping when its basically only useable in open areas when no (edit->) *good* marines are around. like every competitive player has said - its really easier to kill bhopping skulks in close quarters than one who employs other movement tricks.
clearly you have little understanding of the concept of air control. it's amazing how strongly you oppose air control/bhop yet put zero effort into understanding its workings and merits.
strafing in the <b>same</b> direction as you look will net speed gain, not the opposite.
strafing in the <b>same</b> direction as you look will net speed gain, not the opposite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FINALLY someone addressed this!!
And, NovusAnimus, if you DID look into the mechanics you'd see that the real functions of bunny hopping originate from the idea that by STRAFING and TURNING in the SAME direction SOMEHOW (which doesn't really matter) you gain acceleration, then you would see that it is very intuitive to be able to link these bursts of acceleration with the concept of air control..
All you need is to understand the concept and suddenly the movement makes sense.. Just because the mechanic doesn't exist in our universe doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense..
And again, it's not like you are spamming random button combinations to get FORWARD momentum!! You're constantly correcting the angle and direction of your player to DIRECT the SIDEWAYS acceleration!!
Flip, i was 14 when i figured this out, and i'm no physics genious.
EDIT: I'd also like to add that nothing in ANY OTHER game i've played has come close to the feeling of satisfaction of performing/learning to bunny hop.
This just happened to come up in the other thread, but I wanted to make a point here about how <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->intuitive<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> airspeed control and infact bunny hop style mechanics <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->naturally<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> become when you make the jumping mechanic less fiddly (ie quake style jumping).
I hope he won't take offense at my saying this but I've never seen Bacillus playing in any form of competitive environment (if he has, that's my lack of observation).
But the thing is, even with no competitive play, he blink-hops and uses airspeed control to increase his chances of winning <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->without even thinking about it<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.
<b>Isn't this the real issue here?</b> And the real reason a development team would consider removing it?
If it is, then it seems, by the rereading of this thread, that it would be easily implemented (a friend of mine has already done it in Source, and I can't imagine it would be so much harder in Max's engine). And totally worth it. No one I know complains about bhop in quake, that's largely because the interface is so much smoother.
I firmly believe that the consistent negativity that seems to linger is the result primarily of a clunky interface- not a need for a simpler game.
And, NovusAnimus, if you DID look into the mechanics you'd see that the real functions of bunny hopping originate from the idea that by STRAFING and TURNING in the SAME direction SOMEHOW (which doesn't really matter) you gain acceleration, then you would see that it is very intuitive to be able to link these bursts of acceleration with the concept of air control..
All you need is to understand the concept and suddenly the movement makes sense.. Just because the mechanic doesn't exist in our universe doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The fact that it's only obvious when you are doing it and that it is not intuitive to instintively just do it without anyone instructing you how it must be done is why it is unintuitive. I cba to reiterate my point <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=104609&view=findpost&p=1685022" target="_blank">so I'll just link it</a>.
Like i said before, once i understood the concept of air control and chaining these strafes together it sort of clicked and all i had to do was practise moving around the maps.
You may be right. Maybe bunny hopping isn't intuitive. But, like other people have said, alot of skills that require finesse won't come by instinct, or at least, not for everyone..
Take playing an instrument, for example, the saxophone.. Sure the basic idea of wiggling your fingers and blowing into a tube of metal makes some basic sense. Right ? How about when you try and extend the range into the upper octaves ? That kind of stuff require all these freaky deaky finger combinations in combination with changing the shape of your mouth/tounge/lips.
You can't possibly tell me that comes instinctively, and yet it's something that can become second nature with practise.
If everything was dumbed down to the point where EVERYONE was able to do all these specialist type skills then there'd be no sense of satisfaction when one finally decided to get off his lazy behind and practise something.
I personally don't think the game should be culled in these ares just because not EVERYONE can INSTINCTLY know every facet of the game..
Bunny hopping offers that chance to put a bit of time and effort into learning something that doesn't even break game balance, but more increases the emphasis on play style.
Heck, what other games are there where an individuals style can actually be recognised BESIDES gear/stats ?? I can spot the difference between my mates because of the way they bunny hop and leap etc.
There are plenty of places to learn to bunny hop, im pretty sure theres a website soley dedicated to teaching it. The most UW would have to do is include a link or a more stylised and specific guide, maybe a clip or two, and then anyone who wanted to put the time and effort into it could.
Sorry, but this is bull****.
You dont gain speed by turning and strafing in the same direction - NO you dont.
You are in general faster when you strafe and move forward. You can perfectly see that as a cloaked walking skulk. Walk forward and strafe at the same time, you will lose some of your cloak.
Point is, bunnyhopping does not accelerate you at the moment you jump, you are just faster because in the air you constantly "move forward" at the speed you were jumping and then you strafe while you are in the air, giving you extra speed.
You can also exploit this strafe bug by walking next to a wall, strafing against it. Also, you can walk almost in a line and be faster than everyone else by hitting strafe left and right in alternation very fast.
So, now tell me how is that intuitive?
Its not so stop posting this rubbish.
And upon watching the videos I can see why you people are so attached to the mechanic, but that doesn't change the obscure and foreign nature of it. Really, just make the forward key do the same thing and I'd have no problem, but only being allowed to use left/right to gain a forward momentum is crazy.
Also, for those who think I'm running a crusade against this ######: I'm really just bored at work and have nothing to do besides troll these forums, sorry if I'm coming off a nazi.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping#Bunnyhopping_in_Quake_engine_and_GoldSrc_engine_games" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping...rc_engine_games</a>
"An acceleration is experienced in-air while uniformly turning in the same direction as the player is strafing."
and
"The speed at which one can bunnyhop is effectively limited by the turning radius."
Sideways movement speed is 'uncapped', and combing this with turning grants acceleration. Once you figure this out, AND the idea that you can change direction mid-air, putting the two together is actually quite logical.
Still, I think it would be highly ironic selling this as a gameplay feature.
Im all for more complex, unique movement abilities for aliens, but for gorges sake no bhop!