Umbra as shield
subshadow
Join Date: 2003-04-21 Member: 15710Members
Join Date: 2003-04-21 Member: 15710Members
This idea is kinda small but it was something that bugged me in NS1.
Now you experience the effects of umbra when you are in the cloud.
But wouldn't it be more logical if the effect would apply to all bullets who flew through the cloud?
you ........... Umbracloud.............marine
so the bullets wich have travelled through the umbracloud are affected and makes half of them dissapear (or what's the current rating)
just an idea
Now you experience the effects of umbra when you are in the cloud.
But wouldn't it be more logical if the effect would apply to all bullets who flew through the cloud?
you ........... Umbracloud.............marine
so the bullets wich have travelled through the umbracloud are affected and makes half of them dissapear (or what's the current rating)
just an idea
Comments
I guess umbra would be substantially more powerful if it created an anti bullet wall, so perhaps there are game play issues if it were to be the more logical way.
however there is no reason why they can't experiement with this for ns2, perhaps something like the more hives you have the better umbra gets.
For example, you can't protect a hive, structures in general or lifeforms with one umbra cloud, if marines are attacking from different locations unless you increase the radius of umbra.
Since you can't make the cloud appear in mid-air - unless you change back to the 1.04 umbra - you have to shoot straight in front of marines after which they can just step through to keep shooting with full damage at a hive.
I rather think of umbra kinda like a spell the lerk can cast on teammates.
You can simply explain the effect by telling that umbra somehow reacts with the alien's skin to make it absorb more bullets and that it's useless without an alien in it.
I'd only like to see the size of the umbra cloud changed, because imho it's a little too small at the moment, which leads to too many situations, where you count on being in the cloud, but get the fullblast due to it's small size and latency of the server.
I believe a solution for that would be to check for umbra on impact, so that once a bullet lands on a lifeform it would backtrace to the lerk and see if it hits an umbra cloud. If it does, it applies the effects, if not, nothing happens (the first case in the if - else if block should be the check for no umbra cloud so that it exits the loop faster in most cases).
I would be down with umbra working differently, I think it would look cool if bullets entering umbra deflected and changed trajectory, like when you fire bullets into water. Also, if it deflected, it would slow some, so I imagine that would also do less damage to whatever it did hit. I also imagine that the answer to umbra would be a energy/plasma weapon, rather than a projectile weapon ... though, projectile weapons, spear guns, are used under water, right?
See, I'm just imagining though, just brain storming, I have no practical knowledge of how it might work.
I would be down with umbra working differently, I think it would look cool if bullets entering umbra deflected and changed trajectory, like when you fire bullets into water. Also, if it deflected, it would slow some, so I imagine that would also do less damage to whatever it did hit. I also imagine that the answer to umbra would be a energy/plasma weapon, rather than a projectile weapon ... though, projectile weapons, spear guns, are used under water, right?
See, I'm just imagining though, just brain storming, I have no practical knowledge of how it might work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flamerthrowers would do some crazy ###### to umbra, you ever thrown flour everywhere and lit it??? FIREBALL!!!!
Actualy... so would spores... Flamethrowers in NS2 could be very bad for lerk...
Actualy... so would spores... Flamethrowers in NS2 could be very bad for lerk...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... spores are usually somewhere around the marines rather than on aliens, right? So it wouldn't be such a good lerk counter after all... it would have a potential if the combustion of spores was very very fast, so a flamer could clear a spored spot faster than it would clear itself naturally.
I agree that If only umbra could be lit than flamethrowers would make a great counter for it. However, the attacking aliens who are under the influence of umbra do not have control over it - it is fired independently by a helpful lerk. If that lerk is a new player who doesn't know that umbra can be lit, it would cause mayhem to his team mates... so theoretically most of new players playing lerks would do more damage than good, which would be rather annoying for everybody... (apart from rines of curse! ^^).
It has some glitches but generally the idea of countering lerk abilities by flames rocks.
or perhaps the other way around (so that flame is a couter to umbra)- but basically it would give a lot to the game play.
Wow no, but now I want to.
i think this was discussed in the flamethrower thread, it makes more sense to have gas ignite, because its the offensive weapon. umbra is defensive so it should extinguish fire, or at least reduce its damage like it does with bullets. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lerk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::lerk::" border="0" alt="lerk.gif" />
If spore egnite and umbra doesnt its a HUGE + to aliens.
A flamer in spores = dead.
They arnt in danger of their umbra becoming a inferno.
If Umbra is flamable and spores isnt its a HUGE + to marines.
Lerks 3rd ability is now useless... Infact worse than useless its a death trap.
Spores wont set onfire around a flamer and cook him like a goose.
The only fair ways are BOTH or NONE.
Reasons for Both are simple:<ol type='1'><li>It would be cool.</li><li>It would make Flamer a great counter against lerk umbra</li><li>It balences because Lerk Spores is would be flamers weakness</li><li>Also they are both clouds of air born particles which easily ignite into fire balls so they both Physicaly would burn*.</li></ol>
*Reason, clouds of flour for example:
When one "bit" of flour sets on fire very easily, it causes a chain reaction becasue the particles are so close together an so easily flamible. One flour particle ignites also igniting the particles around it creating an explosive force.
I believe this is how it would work with spores and umbra also. If you dont belive me about the flour check this link. ---> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbuLmmd1D18&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbuLmmd1D18...feature=related</a>
In the link the kid only uses a blow-touch the size of a lighter so imagine a HUGE cloud of Flour and a flamethrower.. .. .. Much bigger.
While where talking about flamers IF there implemented something needs to be done for them being used, Its fine if used walking forward, but if used while Jet Packing forward, you move much faster and would get some crazy burns or atleast some nast Heatblisters.
So let's give both sides more stuff to completly stop and negate the enemies' weapons so that both teams just stand next to each other and do nothing because they are all stunned or can't shoot/cause damage.
I believe a solution for that would be to check for umbra on impact, so that once a bullet lands on a lifeform it would backtrace to the lerk and see if it hits an umbra cloud. If it does, it applies the effects, if not, nothing happens (the first case in the if - else if block should be the check for no umbra cloud so that it exits the loop faster in most cases).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your solution requires each bullet hit to check if it went though umbra. While this is fewer than every bullet, it's still a lot.
<!--quoteo(post=1675710:date=Apr 13 2008, 12:18 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Apr 13 2008, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who else remembers something mentioned about a gorge using a reflective shield of sorts?
I would be down with umbra working differently, I think it would look cool if bullets entering umbra deflected and changed trajectory, like when you fire bullets into water. Also, if it deflected, it would slow some, so I imagine that would also do less damage to whatever it did hit. I also imagine that the answer to umbra would be a energy/plasma weapon, rather than a projectile weapon ... though, projectile weapons, spear guns, are used under water, right?
See, I'm just imagining though, just brain storming, I have no practical knowledge of how it might work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds really cool, but are bullets in HL2 hitscan? I don't know I'm asking.
<!--quoteo(post=1675773:date=Apr 14 2008, 08:07 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PsympleJester @ Apr 14 2008, 08:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675773"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but either way you want to do it both should egnite, this really the only fair solution becasue...
If spore egnite and umbra doesnt its a HUGE + to aliens.
A flamer in spores = dead.
They arnt in danger of their umbra becoming a inferno.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree that spores can't be flammable if umbra isn't. I think umbra could be flammable without spores being flammable though.
<!--quoteo(post=1675778:date=Apr 14 2008, 08:43 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pSyk0mAn @ Apr 14 2008, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, so let's throw out more hard counters that are difficult to balance just like this loller idea of a marine bombing an onos from the inside with a grenade after being devoured or the current scan and observatory rendering cloak useless to make abilities less fun and more of a joke.
So let's give both sides more stuff to completly stop and negate the enemies' weapons so that both teams just stand next to each other and do nothing because they are all stunned or can't shoot/cause damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Careful with the slippery slope there. I agree, hard counters in FPS games are generally bad, but I think the flamethrower could use another ability than removing DI. And no one has said anything about stunning or anything else in this thread. Flammable umbra could be a good deterrent to a marine flaming everything in sight. However, maybe it would be better if the flamethrower simply destroyed the umbra rather than cause it to burst into flames.
Every hitscan checks to see what it hits, and every hit (which is all we're discussing) checks for armor and health. Similarly, every shot (which happens at every hit) decrements the attacker's ammo count and reports the new number to the client (this can happen many times a second per player).
Based on these stats, are you trying to argue that one more piece of boolean logic every few seconds would be prohibitive to server load? Go on a server some time and watch how often skulks die, it isn't constant throughout the game, especially if they're ambushing. I don't see my proposal as being that hard to pull off, do you?
Based on these stats, are you trying to argue that one more piece of boolean logic every few seconds would be prohibitive to server load? Go on a server some time and watch how often skulks die, it isn't constant throughout the game, especially if they're ambushing. I don't see my proposal as being that hard to pull off, do you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point... Although I tend to be of the mindset of more efficient source code rather than more complex; if the complexity makes the game more functional or fun, then it works. *shrug*
Based on these stats, are you trying to argue that one more piece of boolean logic every few seconds would be prohibitive to server load? Go on a server some time and watch how often skulks die, it isn't constant throughout the game, especially if they're ambushing. I don't see my proposal as being that hard to pull off, do you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To calculate the path as a projectile and then check that path for umbra during the time the bullet "traveled", yes.
Picky, picky. You know what he meant just as I did. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
BTW, you still didn't say whether you agreed with his point or not, locallyunscene.
It's a hitscan, not a projectile. Hitscans function by checking for a blocking surface, which essentially means that every shot that ends up connecting with a lifeform counts as two shots, and asks for one additional piece of boolean logic. It's possible that this is too much for a server to handle, but on what are you basing your assumption that it would be too taxing?
That implementation sounds workable to me. I didn't get that from your original post.
Like INKEDOUT said, using the CS:S method (I thnk its even in CS for HL1) would be fairly cheap for the server load and wont take long to implement, at least making it ready for playtesting. How much the umbra blocks would have to be balanced through playtesting.
I think it could function as a really good tactical element. In a hallway or alike, a Lerk shoots umbra in front of the marines, so his teamates (that are not right up in the marines face) would have better protection from from longer distance shots. The marines could then decide to take a few stept forward, through the umbra, to give full damage.
If, as discussed, the flamethrower thing is implemented, a marine with the flamethrower could step forward and remove the umbra. (I dont care if it burns and hurt everone in it or it just evaporates).
In a more open part of the map, it would propably be easier for the marines to just step to the side, shooting around the umbra. So I would agree with the "more hives = bigger umbra cloud" suggestion, although I dont think it should be stronger, just bigger.
<!--quoteo(post=1676055:date=Apr 16 2008, 11:30 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 16 2008, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That implementation sounds workable to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure it's a bit hard to get right as is it now since you have to place it before they get there, but with a little team work you'd be surprised how effective it can be.
Either that or I'm stuck in my imaginary land where people don't play for kills and support each other.
Sure it's a bit hard to get right as is it now since you have to place it before they get there, but with a little team work you'd be surprised how effective it can be.
Either that or I'm stuck in my imaginary land where people don't play for kills and support each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some play experiences can be vastly different than others, I know when I lerked, my main thing was spore unless heavies were about, then I would umbra slower moving team mates, like Onii but even more so than that, I would be asked to umbra a hive and the healing gorge on it in the event of a rush on the hive. Other than those two cases, umbra didn't get used near as much as spore for supporting another's attacks, though some thought I was steal killing, but hey, that was one of the short comings of the NS1, hopefully assists will be recognized better in NS2.
My hope for umbra would be for it too look something like this:
No umbra:
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> - - - <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" />
Umbra: .
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> - |< <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lerk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::lerk::" border="0" alt="lerk.gif" />
.
Still the chance to get hit but it would change the trajectory, deflecting the shot wide, and if it did hit, it would have a bit of a reduced damage too, for going slower than say, super sonic like it currently possibly does.
Now instead of scanning once more and simply failing the umbra test when most bullets are fired (and connect) you have to 1) establish where you connected and save it as a variable 2) estabilish where the hitscan exited the umbra and save it as a variable 3) compare the two and do some calculations to figure out the distance from one point to the other point 4) use that distance as a multiplier to reduce the damage from the first shot, which has been waiting the entire time for the server to tell it how much damage it should do.
It might work, but it's far more taxing than what I was suggesting.
Now instead of scanning once more and simply failing the umbra test when most bullets are fired (and connect) you have to 1) establish where you connected and save it as a variable 2) estabilish where the hitscan exited the umbra and save it as a variable 3) compare the two and do some calculations to figure out the distance from one point to the other point 4) use that distance as a multiplier to reduce the damage from the first shot, which has been waiting the entire time for the server to tell it how much damage it should do.
It might work, but it's far more taxing than what I was suggesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er, if you are referring to my suggestion, I was just thinking more along the lines of -10% from a bullets usual damage or whatever, plus change the bullets flight path from straight from the muzzle to like, a shotgun scatter (or probably a wider cone than that), but 1 bullet instead of say the 10 or whatever pellets that come out of a shotgun. As far as I know, shotguns don't make for sever load, right? But seeing as its not a shotgun but like random scatter, is that what you are saying?
I guess I am just out of my shallow depth of knowledge on how the function calls work, so if what you say has gone completely over my head, sorry. I really thought it would be far more simple then what you describe, more like:
- shoot
- hit umbra detected
- place invisible shotgun blast cone at point of impact on umbra
- pick one of the shot pellet's directions (that would seem pretty random, right?)
- bullet hits whatever on that path instead, minus 10% (or whatever number is appropriate) of its usual damage
*shrug* Not sure if that works in practice, I'm just brain storming for approximate examples.
Basicly screws up a marine's aim, would be of some benefit to the Kharaa, yes?
- hit umbra detected<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In order to hit the umbra it has to check for it. My system made this portion of the code arguably more efficient by only performing a check on the bullets that actually connect.
<!--quoteo(post=1676264:date=Apr 19 2008, 01:09 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Apr 19 2008, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- place invisible shotgun blast cone at point of impact on umbra<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would you go about calculating the vectors at which to apply the new bullet? It wouldn't be a shotgun blast because each hitscan (bullet) from the lmg (for instance) is entering the cloud at slightly different frames. I guess you could queue bullets from every few frames to catch sprays but I don't think this is what you were suggesting, and I don't think it would actually improve performance over caluclating the vectors individually (which would spread out the load and reduce cpu spikes on the server).
<!--quoteo(post=1676264:date=Apr 19 2008, 01:09 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Apr 19 2008, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- pick one of the shot pellet's directions (that would seem pretty random, right?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would, but it's also an extra calculation that needs to know where the umbra cloud's center is so that it can randomize the new path accurately (unless you just wanted it to spray anywhere, including having an equal chance to go back toward the marine or to exit out of the cloud as normal, which seems unrealistic to me).
<!--quoteo(post=1676264:date=Apr 19 2008, 01:09 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Apr 19 2008, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- bullet hits whatever on that path instead, minus 10% (or whatever number is appropriate) of its usual damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I believe the multiplier would be damage*0.333, unless balance was starkly different for umbra in NS2.
If you DID use this system, and wanted to make it really fancy, you could have bullets try to arc around the umbra cloud (treating its center with more density than the edges) which would be very interesting for gameplay, and would make aiming umbra far more interesting, and it would make the first-person gameplay more interesting by changing a statistical variation into a predictable "river of bullets".