<!--quoteo(post=1676320:date=Apr 20 2008, 04:42 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Apr 20 2008, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you DID use this system, and wanted to make it really fancy, you could have bullets try to arc around the umbra cloud (treating its center with more density than the edges) which would be very interesting for gameplay, and would make aiming umbra far more interesting, and it would make the first-person gameplay more interesting by changing a statistical variation into a predictable "river of bullets".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea but you dont seem to have your physics right... Unless your suggesting its so dense it has its own gravitational field but then of course it would still not arc around the umbra cloud unless the bullet was shot at the very edge of its radius it instead would be pulled towards the epicentre but anyway. If it was denser towards the centre it would cause bullets to go towards the centre as the inside of the bullet would slow down causing refraction.
However I think the idea of Umbra being dense is a very good idea because of the amazing power of refreaction!
If you dont know what refraction is please read this brief explanation, If you understand then skip.
<!--QuoteBegin-Physics of Refraction+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Physics of Refraction)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Woo refraction! Refraction an occurance when the density of a substance causes light to bend. This occurance is why things submerged in water appear to be in a different place to where they actualy are, for example a pencil bending when submerged in water. The reason behind why the light bend creating this "illusion" is because of the way the light enters the denser substance. If the light enters the denser substance at any other angle than 90 degrees (perpendicular to the substance) then one side of the light will entre the substance before the other side of the light. In the event of this the other side will continue moving at the speed of light where as the side that has entered the denser substance will slow down. This means that the light bends because one side is going faster than the other.
Ok this is how I see Umbra working using refraction. If light can refract so can bullets it just needs to be abit denser for it to be as effective so here is my reasoning. Umbra becomes some sort of swarm of bacteria of which are VERY dense, this means that bullets that entre umbra at an angle refract with possibly some realistic angles of refraction?
This would mean that if the bullet went directly towards the umbra it would pass straight through!!!
However if umbra was placed on a corridor with the epicentre directly next to the wall all bullet shot from any point into the umbra would be directed towards the wall at around the same point, the reason it would be around the same point is because if the marines where to shoot a bullet just skimming the edge of the umbra the time between the near side and the far side of the bullet entering the denser atmostphere would be huge (for a bullet moving super sonic anyway) meaning the angle of refraction would be very large but the wall is further away. On the other hand if he shot it so that it was a tiny distance from the epicentre it would only refract a small amount but the wall is alot closer.
The pros of this method is that opposed to the old umbra witch made a safe spot for the aliens this umbra would make a cloud of dense gas or bacteria that honed in all the marines bullets on a single area, if placed correctly, and the aliens could just attack around it.
I was referring to density in relation to hardness. As an illustration think about a snowball with tightly packed ice in the center and fluffy snow on the surface. If you stab the snowball with a knife, the knife will more easily skid along the surface of the ball than it will enter its center. This is partially due to the shape of the ball, and partially due to its increasing hardness as the knife would penetrate more deeply.
At least I think that's how it would work, do I actually have my physics wrong?
La ChupacabraJoin Date: 2008-02-25Member: 63729Members
refraction applies to light because is the change in direction of a wave (e.g. light wave) and a wave is a disturbance that propagates through space and time, usually with transference of energy. Thus, I am afraid it wouldn't work for bullets, because those are a solid matter, not waves...
but nice try, though. I am in favor of adding more science-based ideas into NS2
Sorry if my idea didn't pan out, like I said, my lack of understanding does hamper by ability to assess if something can be implemented in a reasonable fashion, so I will defer to your post.
Would you say Refraction is different than Deflection? The projectiles would encounter more resistance / friction moving through the umbra than what normally passes for air in whatever enviroment the map was taking place, wouldn't that cause deflection, a change in trajectory?
Check this summary of a Myth Busters episode out: <a href="http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/07/mythbusters_bulletproof_water.html" target="_blank">Bullet Proof Water</a>
And this on ballistic trajectories is interesting: <a href="http://www.krellinst.org/UCES/Demo/ScientificComputing/uces-5/uces-5/uces-5.html" target="_blank">Ballistic Trajectories</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1676349:date=Apr 20 2008, 09:47 PM:name=La Chupacabra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(La Chupacabra @ Apr 20 2008, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->refraction applies to light because is the change in direction of a wave (e.g. light wave) and a wave is a disturbance that propagates through space and time, usually with transference of energy. Thus, I am afraid it wouldn't work for bullets, because those are a solid matter, not waves...
but nice try, though. I am in favor of adding more science-based ideas into NS2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hahah that was my only flaw... I wasnt quite sure whether it would apply to bullets or not hehe maybe if NS has railguns incorporated...
And Radix I dont think that would make too much of a difference on a bullet the centre of the umbra would have to be increadably dense and the gradient at which the density increased towards the centre would be cause huge changes as to whether it was steep or shallow as to whether the bullet would simply stop or be very slowly caused to ark but it would be quite a way in before it was caused to ark... I presume (la chupacabra will probably correct me again)
And for it to cause reflection it would be VERY hard to give a scientific definition as to why...
<!--quoteo(post=1676363:date=Apr 20 2008, 09:37 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Apr 20 2008, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Check this summary of a Myth Busters episode out: <a href="http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/07/mythbusters_bulletproof_water.html" target="_blank">Bullet Proof Water</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, I think that crossed my mind when I initially read this idea, but I forgot to make a comment about it.
Comments
I like this idea but you dont seem to have your physics right... Unless your suggesting its so dense it has its own gravitational field but then of course it would still not arc around the umbra cloud unless the bullet was shot at the very edge of its radius it instead would be pulled towards the epicentre but anyway. If it was denser towards the centre it would cause bullets to go towards the centre as the inside of the bullet would slow down causing refraction.
However I think the idea of Umbra being dense is a very good idea because of the amazing power of refreaction!
If you dont know what refraction is please read this brief explanation, If you understand then skip.
<!--QuoteBegin-Physics of Refraction+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Physics of Refraction)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Woo refraction!
Refraction an occurance when the density of a substance causes light to bend. This occurance is why things submerged in water appear to be in a different place to where they actualy are, for example a pencil bending when submerged in water.
The reason behind why the light bend creating this "illusion" is because of the way the light enters the denser substance. If the light enters the denser substance at any other angle than 90 degrees (perpendicular to the substance) then one side of the light will entre the substance before the other side of the light. In the event of this the other side will continue moving at the speed of light where as the side that has entered the denser substance will slow down. This means that the light bends because one side is going faster than the other.
<a href="http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/889/65018453.JPG" target="_blank">http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/889/65018453.JPG</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok this is how I see Umbra working using refraction. If light can refract so can bullets it just needs to be abit denser for it to be as effective so here is my reasoning. Umbra becomes some sort of swarm of bacteria of which are VERY dense, this means that bullets that entre umbra at an angle refract with possibly some realistic angles of refraction?
This would mean that if the bullet went directly towards the umbra it would pass straight through!!!
However if umbra was placed on a corridor with the epicentre directly next to the wall all bullet shot from any point into the umbra would be directed towards the wall at around the same point, the reason it would be around the same point is because if the marines where to shoot a bullet just skimming the edge of the umbra the time between the near side and the far side of the bullet entering the denser atmostphere would be huge (for a bullet moving super sonic anyway) meaning the angle of refraction would be very large but the wall is further away. On the other hand if he shot it so that it was a tiny distance from the epicentre it would only refract a small amount but the wall is alot closer.
The pros of this method is that opposed to the old umbra witch made a safe spot for the aliens this umbra would make a cloud of dense gas or bacteria that honed in all the marines bullets on a single area, if placed correctly, and the aliens could just attack around it.
At least I think that's how it would work, do I actually have my physics wrong?
but nice try, though. I am in favor of adding more science-based ideas into NS2
Would you say Refraction is different than Deflection? The projectiles would encounter more resistance / friction moving through the umbra than what normally passes for air in whatever enviroment the map was taking place, wouldn't that cause deflection, a change in trajectory?
Check this summary of a Myth Busters episode out: <a href="http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/07/mythbusters_bulletproof_water.html" target="_blank">Bullet Proof Water</a>
And this on ballistic trajectories is interesting:
<a href="http://www.krellinst.org/UCES/Demo/ScientificComputing/uces-5/uces-5/uces-5.html" target="_blank">Ballistic Trajectories</a>
but nice try, though. I am in favor of adding more science-based ideas into NS2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hahah that was my only flaw... I wasnt quite sure whether it would apply to bullets or not hehe maybe if NS has railguns incorporated...
And Radix I dont think that would make too much of a difference on a bullet the centre of the umbra would have to be increadably dense and the gradient at which the density increased towards the centre would be cause huge changes as to whether it was steep or shallow as to whether the bullet would simply stop or be very slowly caused to ark but it would be quite a way in before it was caused to ark... I presume (la chupacabra will probably correct me again)
And for it to cause reflection it would be VERY hard to give a scientific definition as to why...
You know, I think that crossed my mind when I initially read this idea, but I forgot to make a comment about it.