Who loves the skulk mouth camera view?
MagicElemental
Join Date: 2007-02-04 Member: 59871Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2007-02-04 Member: 59871Members, Constellation
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That was actually the first thing that I found cool when I was looking through screens when NS was first released. More because of natural curiosity, but yea, that made me to download NS and the idea of sth that combines RTS with FPS, which seemed unbelievable at the time (ahh, beautiful memories).
Well it does make attacking harder, but it's a drawback comparable to a muzzle flash in guns. It's also... soo... well... NS-like!
/Send radio-controlled-TNT-stuffed gummi bears to your location <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
The first thing I noticed about NS that made me say "Wow this game sure looks unpolished. It must be some hack indie job." was the fact that there's no third person camera for skulks. The second was that bunnyhop didn't function as it does in quake, and that it had to be scripted or bound to mouse wheel. These things weren't cons because I "didn't like them" or because it "made the game harder", which undoubtedly will be brought up as counterarguments. I initially counted them as cons (and still tend to) because the game is so movement-based, similar to many mods or original games on the Quake engine.
The above comments aren't meant to come off as insulting <i>now</i>, and if there's any doubt about that you can get the gist of my attitude toward the game and development team as a whole through my other posts - I'm not telling you to include a thirdperson camera in NS2, I'm just giving my intuitive reaction from when I <i>first</i> sat down to play the game several years ago.
Good point!
Just because you like playing with handicaps, doesn't mean that everybody else does. One man's fun is another's hell. I personally think that there are better ways to implement "strategical restrictions" than having skulk players forced into a childish game of peek-a-boo with their enemy. The skulk's main purpose is to kill marines by biting, and yet the location of the POV is in its mouth - the biggest insult to the concept of natural selection. Just like having your weapon act as a nautical flare in the space age is an insult to technological advancement. But I'm not arguing for technicalities here. I just think there must be better ways than this to establish a unique and engaging game.
Potential modifications to make the animation less of an issue:
1. Increase the speed of the animation
2. Add in adjustable transparency for the model
3. Remove it altogether
To be honest, I don't really like the idea of a 3rd person view.
I wonder how would camera work in 3rd person view when skulk would be inside a ventilation shaft, running on the ceiling (rotating together with the model?) etc. If that would be done in a playable way... and you could choose between 1st and 3rd person view (which probably won't happen, after what max said in one of the podcasts) than I wouldn't mind such an addition.
i hate the mouth camera too
i mean look at the model:
it have eyes
lets use them
under the eyes to the nose are some "tubes"
i like to see them in the under screen
I like the 1st person bite view although it is kinda annoying in the long run.
That said, the problem with a third person pov is... you can look around corners, and its very hard to get around that. So thats where you get the first person pov from, and imo, they did a great job with the skulk view. It doesn't cover up your screen that much, and it adds to the atmosphere.
And if you're having problems with not following a marine, he may just be better than you. Not to be a jerk, theres always someone better, and you're not meant to dominate every person every situation.
First off, have the bite animation not occupy most of the screen, have long teeth that jerk together, but do not cover everything. Skulks are biting, not chewing carefully. (If they do chew carefully on a corpse though, it could obscure the screen...)
Secondly, use transparency so you can still see while you chomp away.
I always thought of it as balancing a bit, the skulks are small, fast, hard to draw a bead on, but they tend to get distracted and flanked while they chew on your buddy. And a skulk loses pretty much nothing besides distance from target when killed.
i want that the theet sight replaced be a more realistic nose and this "tube"
on the screen
Guys at The Specialists mod for HL1 managed to get around this (if you wouldn't see sth in first person view you won't see it in 3rd view neither! Of course you see the walls and other map-related things, but you don't see the player models etc.)
Yes, this is possible. You still determine visibility of an object from the eye position even though you render the scene from the view position. It is very unintuitive though. If people see an empty corridor, they expect it to be empty when they walk around it.
I can totally understand why people get frustrated with the disorientation the current view position creates, and I'd like to see some alternative approaches to the problem. I'd, at the very least, be interest in seeing attack animations that are maybe similiar to the retractable teeth in the aliens movie and they would play/render similiar to the fade swipe.
that whould be a fast and costless possibility
but also the worsts
NO 3rd SIGHTS
we discuss that in other threads already
its hard to tell what i have in my mind
I think this is the best option as you get the atmosphere of chomping down on someone but you can still orient yourself.
3rd Person doesn't feel quite right for NS. Tremulous also has a sort of 3rd person system, and I strongly dislike it. Then again, I kinda dislike most of their ideas in general.
However, I can see your argument for it blocking view and such. I've just never quite had a problem with it blocking my view. Maybe that's why I'm not pro and wanking about how I can't optimize everything little thing I do, but I've just learned to deal with it and predict where they will be next.
regardless of all of the potential issues i think 3rd person might be good too
Agreed.
<!--quoteo(post=1672009:date=Mar 3 2008, 03:38 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thaldarin @ Mar 3 2008, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's unique, strategically restrictive. It works. IF it's not broke don't fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also agreed.
<!--quoteo(post=1672008:date=Mar 3 2008, 03:27 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 3 2008, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still, 3rd person skulk would be far more intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meh... that's up for debate depending on priorities.
<!--quoteo(post=1672077:date=Mar 4 2008, 11:59 AM:name=Wyattx3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wyattx3 @ Mar 4 2008, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks are meant to be scouts, and work together with other skulks and higher life forms to ambush marines.
That said, the problem with a third person pov is... you can look around corners, and its very hard to get around that. So thats where you get the first person pov from, and imo, they did a great job with the skulk view. It doesn't cover up your screen that much, and it adds to the atmosphere.
And if you're having problems with not following a marine, he may just be better than you. Not to be a jerk, theres always someone better, and you're not meant to dominate every person every situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Plus it wouldn't feel the same without the *munch* *munch*. It kind of reminds me how sharks blink their eyes close when they bite.
<!--quoteo(post=1672180:date=Mar 5 2008, 06:39 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Mar 5 2008, 06:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, this is possible. You still determine visibility of an object from the eye position even though you render the scene from the view position. It is very unintuitive though. If people see an empty corridor, they expect it to be empty when they walk around it.
I can totally understand why people get frustrated with the disorientation the current view position creates, and I'd like to see some alternative approaches to the problem. I'd, at the very least, be interest in seeing attack animations that are maybe similiar to the retractable teeth in the aliens movie and they would play/render similiar to the fade swipe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? Maybe it's because I grew up playing FPS games as a kid (first major one for me was the ground-breaking game <i>Descent</i>), but I've never had a problem with orientation as a skulk from day one. Now I do remember clearly getting lost playing the maps when I started, mostly because I didn't know where the objectives were like many others in the server seemed to.
Just try it please - you don't even need to code it - one day when you're bored with developing, load up a game like Jedi Academy or any of its predecessors where you have melee in 3rd person - you'll realize how important it is.
It's not as if your eyes, arms, legs, <b>entire body</b>, and <b>gun</b>'s sights are all <b>locked together</b> in movement - as the player's undoubtedly are, in a FPS. Essentially you're controlling a moving box, not a person. There's basically no sense of self in a FPS - you're not really a character, you're a gun.
Nor is that the kind of perspective you'd get in real life. It's like everyone has tunnel-vision. - Will FPSs ever expand the periphery of vision? (though I remember vaguely an article, many years back, about the technical limitations that force a limited field of view in FPSs. very vaguely. i don't know if they're still relevant.)
So in terms of believability, do skulks have eyes in their mouths? No, they don't.
Does it matter? Not at all. Even though it has eyes on its head, you could still have its view shown from its arse, if that's how you thought the game should play.
So ignore the believability - you know skulks don't have eyes in their mouths, and that it doesn't matter - and focus on the gameplay / playability / disorientation / object-trackability / depth-judgment/perception considerations.
And so, I'm all for semi-transparency, and yet I don't think it's enough.
And I'm also against third person view, though I couldn't really say why...
im for semi transparent sight
i just dont want this view blocking
When the tongue licks the marine you know it is time to turn the page, I mean bite...
Jedi Academy is a piece of ###### that deserves to be forgotten and wiped of the face of the earth.
<b>LONG LIVE JK2!</b> *reminisces in the days of saber dueling and red saber stance 1hitko pwnage*..
Now that that's off of my chest..
TBH Skulk's teeth have never hindered my playing ability in any way.. I seemed to have looked through it and ignored the fact that it was there, cause when I think back I don't see Skulk teeth around the screen I just see skulk pwnage.. 3rd person view wouldn't work well with NS2 IMO, NS is different compared to the JK series as things like lightsabers have immense range which can't really be calculated with 1st person view -think JK:DA2 where lightsaber fights were just random button spam. Didn't work very well but fun game none the less. It seems more natural to have the point of view from the source of damage (which in this case is the Skulk's mouth which is a lot more physical and close range than something like a sword).
Maybe if they really, <i>really</i> wanted to change it they could just move the point of view to above the Skulk's mouth, simmilar to the Onos' point of view.
And with the range on the melee attacks, things like that come with time (so long as the player WANTS to learn it). All you gotta do is stand next to a wall. Walk backwards and bite until you cant hear the puncture sound.
Yeah. I had the same thoughts last night!!
It's also usefull if the X-Ray sight of aliens (I mean that glowing of organic stuff when u press F) will still be shown when ur mouth is shut!
EDIT: Thanks, i meant the <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->HIVE SIGHT<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> through theets
THATs it
the hive sight show marines through the theets!!
thats a problem less
and whit my suggest to make hivesight better its become a reall help!
JK2 ROXORS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And of course you're right - JK2 1.02 JG200 CTF on Yavin was the best online action/fighting game ever made.
But I don't agree with you that a thirdperson cam decision should be made as a factor of the range of a given attack - I still think it's much more relevant that the class attacks as a melee unit, rather than with a gun.
In fact carrying that to its logical conclusion, the longer range you have, the less need there is for a thirdperson camera, ergo, NS actually needs it more than JK2 did.