<!--quoteo(post=1665777:date=Dec 31 2007, 06:25 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Dec 31 2007, 06:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that's an idea i've thought about too, but i didn't really like it. one of the reasons is that it takes away a class to select, from players. i'd also thought of the idea of the commander being some kind of (wall-crawling?) super-gorge. and you can slice that any way you want, but one of the features it would include would be to -not- have (primarily) top-down view, buildings and such would be placed in the same way a gorge does in NS. and not only the experience, but the roles of either commander would be quite different. yep this is pretty much what i'm saying heh. too true.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, read my previous post, it doesn't take away the class, the computer controlled gorges have no offensive abilities like web or spit or bile bomb, only heal spray and build, there like sub gorges, people can still be gorges, and it will still be balanced but no one is forced to be a gorge like in the old NS, I know for a fact that alot of times no one on a team wanted to be a gorge but did so anyways for the good of the team, and much rather would have been lurks and fades and onoses. With this system no one is forced to be a gorge, the whole team could be skulks and fades, but if they wanted to be a gorge the option is still open to them, and it will be better if they do because they have more abilities than the NPC gorges.
so it doesn't take away a class but only removes a draconian burden present in the previous game.
Personally, this is my idea of a 'Alien Commander'.
While Marine commander can see from above, I think the alien commander should be able to see in almost a spectate view, of everything around each alien within a certain distance, similar to what Scent of Fear can do.
The Alien commander IMHO, should be small and slow, and able to enter and leave the Hive. This would allow them to move between hives if one of being attacked. Aliens would have to protect the commander. The alien commander would also get to decide what % of resources is allocated to what person. So that if people are wanting to fade who are good, the commander can allocate a greater % of available resources to them.
That's just my idea, as I don't think it would distract from the current NS game or change things too much, but would be an interesting take on it. I'm sure we'll have a great one whatever <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1665805:date=Dec 31 2007, 01:20 PM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Obraxis @ Dec 31 2007, 01:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, this is my idea of a 'Alien Commander'.
While Marine commander can see from above, I think the alien commander should be able to see in almost a spectate view, of everything around each alien within a certain distance, similar to what Scent of Fear can do.
The Alien commander IMHO, should be small and slow, and able to enter and leave the Hive. This would allow them to move between hives if one of being attacked. Aliens would have to protect the commander. The alien commander would also get to decide what % of resources is allocated to what person. So that if people are wanting to fade who are good, the commander can allocate a greater % of available resources to them.
That's just my idea, as I don't think it would distract from the current NS game or change things too much, but would be an interesting take on it. I'm sure we'll have a great one whatever <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
under that plan, the commander could give all resources to one person, and you would get a 5 minute onos, gg marines.
No idea if this has been said yet, not in the mood of reading massive walls of text, BUT when talking about a possible alien commander. Could it be possible to make the alien commander in the sense that you dont have to sit on the "chair" the whole round. Its somewhat annoying on marines at this point(atleast for me), but seeing how it seems silly to just do plain mirrors of the teams. Have the alien commander functions so simple, that you need just to "hop in & hop out" when needed, heck even make some sort of "lock" for upgrade patterns(or whatever you want it to do) so the newbs wont go and ruin everything when they hop in.
Also, have lifeform & structure resources on different pools, no insta onos's or whatever would be reasonable. :o
So your suggesting that the alien commander shouldn't have to command for "the whole round". and anyone can just "hop in" when something needs done? And have the alien interface be inanely simple?
What your basically suggesting is the commander will be as useful as a leaky pisspot. Having everyone hopping in and out of the chair every few minutes would be like playing a chess game with the black side changing players every 5 minutes, what you would end up with is each new player coming in ignorant of the previous players strategy, ignorantly walking into traps that he didn't witness being set up, and making new strategies that trample over old strategies destroying all the progress of the older ones creating a chaotic cluster###### as newbs turret farm and pros are left to watch in amazement as their base is annihilated.
Unless you make it "so simple" that it becomes the tactical equivalent of a retard playing Simon says with a single flashing blue button, so that the alien team is left standing around with a stupid look on their face as their commander is only able to do the most basic and useless things while the human team with their greater tactical prowess is flanking them in the bum.
Basically i think the role of the new alien commander, without too much damaging the uniqueness of the aliens, would be to place structures, but be unable to order other aliens or create squads. so basically the only thing he can do that the gorge cant is view the entire map. now in my opinion it was an important part of alien play to communicate the different things you saw the marines doing to your team, and then come up with a counter to it. it makes every member of the team more important, as opposed to the marine style where each marine is expendable, but a group is not. I understand that the developers want to balance the resource system, but they dont have to add a commander to change the numbers, they could just let the gorges spend the money if they absolutely have to have a single resource pool.
anway, aside from the alien commander the game is looking good, keep it up.
<!--quoteo(post=1665967:date=Jan 2 2008, 05:26 AM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Al_Ka_Pwn @ Jan 2 2008, 05:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So your suggesting that the alien commander shouldn't have to command for "the whole round". and anyone can just "hop in" when something needs done? And have the alien interface be inanely simple?
What your basically suggesting is the commander will be as useful as a leaky pisspot. Having everyone hopping in and out of the chair every few minutes would be like playing a chess game with the black side changing players every 5 minutes, what you would end up with is each new player coming in ignorant of the previous players strategy, ignorantly walking into traps that he didn't witness being set up, and making new strategies that trample over old strategies destroying all the progress of the older ones creating a chaotic cluster###### as newbs turret farm and pros are left to watch in amazement as their base is annihilated.
Unless you make it "so simple" that it becomes the tactical equivalent of a retard playing Simon says with a single flashing blue button, so that the alien team is left standing around with a stupid look on their face as their commander is only able to do the most basic and useless things while the human team with their greater tactical prowess is flanking them in the bum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As far as i understood it, the term 'alien commander' didnt necessary have to mean that there would be 1 guy, deciding what their team should and shouldnt do. But to balance the resource system that they felt was inadequate in ns1. Who says that the alien commander needs to have that much responsibility?
Might be just me, but i was kind of fond of the concept that aliens were more reliant on the communication of the whole team, instead of one particular commander.
<!--quoteo(post=1664240:date=Dec 16 2007, 05:33 PM:name=LucidDream)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LucidDream @ Dec 16 2007, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about instead of a "Commander", allow someone to play as "The Hive Mind" This player could still use a limited view RTS format but can only see and interact within the areas covered by Dynamic Infestation. The player would not have much control other then the ability to recall lifeforms to the Hive/Hives provided they are on an infected patch and perhaps a healing option. Said player would also be able to see movement within the infected areas without the need for chambers.
By doing this you give the Marines incentive to burn away the infection as part of securing an area.
Of course I could just be insane.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just think this needed to be said again, as it is totally awesome. This would be an excellent implementation.
<!--quoteo(post=1666311:date=Jan 4 2008, 02:20 PM:name=Hoobs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hoobs @ Jan 4 2008, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just think this needed to be said again, as it is totally awesome. This would be an excellent implementation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would be boring to play.
Alien's are guerrilla warfare vs marines "conventional" warfare. Alien's know what they have to do (instinct/MOTD) but there's no one there to tell them to do it so they have to rely on each other's skills or attributes. In theory the alien's should mostly have to paralyze the marine's resources until they become weak and over run, not exactly something that can be done through full frontal warfare or be assisted in any great degree by a comm. Comm gets a RTS overview, which means if he has a mic he has a substantial advantage for spotting enemies and rallying friendly troops. Time to share my brain storm for what it's worth: Give gorges some kind of expendable creature (baby gorge!) that comes out of it's shell (like the scorpion comes out of Blackout in transformers), then can recon ahead of combat aliens (like the little black robot that leads Storm Troopers around the death star). Gorge gestates, the recon being illuminates enemies on minimap, recon being croaks then the gorge "grows" a new one eventually while building/healing. Dev's have been able to balance NS1 pretty well with creative solutions that keep to the story line. I'm confident NS2 will be a sequel not a spinoff.
There's really no way to come up with an adequate response to the idea of alien commander. I will however add that the resource system of NS1 is fatally flawed. There is no scalability to the game. 30 man servers would be unplayable without the 2x res mods that have been implemented.
In addition there seems to be much more desire to play as marines. And I think this is attributable to the fact that as games progress light armored marines are still extremely effective and skulks are extremely ineffective. Meaning dying as a marine isn't stressful at all because you can still get kills. Skulks however can do little killing and die in less then half a second.
I think tying alien life forms to RTs and Hives may be the best solution. For example aliens spawn with 25 res. 20 for the hive and 5 for the RT. Each additional RT adds 5 res and each Hive 20. There would be no res gain during life and upon death res would be restored. Something like that i think would be very effective.
Like most people I am skeptical about the idea of an alien commander. It would verily destroy part of NS's uniqueness. I would rather see a revamped, scalable resource system.
However, if it must be done, uniqueness remains the key. I think LucidDream is on the right track. In some way the "Hive Mind" or Alien commander needs to be severely limited. I would tend to go with a very sensory experience for the interface. Perhaps instead of seeing the plain map, the Alien commander would see a sort of heat map. Colored blobs would show the presence of lifeforms and maybe sources of warmth such as generators or conducts. Using the cursor you could hover over these hot spots which would produce sounds that would allow you to further identify the type of lifeform you're looking at (a deep heartbeat for marines, for instance).
Something very far from the HUD of Marines, in any case. I'll try and make a mockup.
<!--quoteo(post=1666615:date=Jan 7 2008, 03:13 PM:name=commofdoom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(commofdoom @ Jan 7 2008, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In addition there seems to be much more desire to play as marines. And I think this is attributable to the fact that as games progress light armored marines are still extremely effective and skulks are extremely ineffective. Meaning dying as a marine isn't stressful at all because you can still get kills. Skulks however can do little killing and die in less then half a second.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Huh, really? I always felt the opposite, except the very final phases of the round, where heavy armor makes biting futile, and W3 A3 LMGs pose enough of a threat to fades that they have to run away to heal after taking one down.
As many others have stated before me the alien commander would ruin the whole concept of Natural Selection. Im not for it, the game needs to resemble the original gameplay of NS with a variety new features.
needless to say playtesting this commander wouldnt hurt because we could see if we liked it
Hoesntly I dont see whats so broken about the current system... the only thing i see is that in large games like above 18 players aliens had the advantage at the start up. And later on if they let the rines get too much res not being able to defend ageinst it because of the resorces. honestly Aliens generally win the game early on, with resource control.
Honestly the idea of an alien commander sounds really scary. I mean, I think everyone here knows about the Marines commanders... I used to me a newb until i learned what the rines want. and built it.
Also, as aliens it didnt break your team if say someone who was horrable as a fade or onos, dies, your team could recover heck I remember back in the day of a 2 hour game where it was going back and forth, rines gain ground, then aliens. Honestly it was the most fun I had with a game.
So I mean it all depeneds on what the resorce problem was. I mean gorges got the prority on res so they could build things. I mean I know I've lost plently of res on very poorly placed OC's or other chambers. And I paid for it with my own res... I dunno I kind of liked the aline building cuase really you could mess around and while yes your failures effected your team, it wasn't team ending.
Also, sometimes its not all the commanders fualt. I mean I don't know how many times I've lost to games where people just can't hit the aliens to kill them. I mean aiming IS a skill. I mean the best commander in the world can't do anything if there marines can't kill anything... and honestly turrets... cost way too much early game I mean I know you used to be able to turret walk to a hive. (that was fun to do as rines too =p)
<!--quoteo(post=1667378:date=Jan 14 2008, 09:34 AM:name=DeadmanDieing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DeadmanDieing @ Jan 14 2008, 09:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hoesntly I dont see whats so broken about the current system...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Balancing is a *bleep!*. You may not see it but the countless hours spent by the Devs sure know it. Depending on how many different versions of NS1 you were around for, you may recognize it too.
I don't know if this has been suggested already (most likely has), for those who would not like this new gameplay into NS2 and like the NS gameplay the way it is, maybe a 3rd gameplay mode for NS2 (That is if CO is being implamented into NS2). NS2 mode - Regular NS2 mode where you have the Alien Commander Features and everything you guys invisioned, CNS mode - Classic NS mode, where Aliens are as they were in NS1 and Marines either as they were in NS1 or still have the same stuff as in NS2 mode, then CO mode - Combat. Just thought I'd through that out here, your game, your decisions, I still play.
I read the OP only. Suffice to say, an alien commander is just an assumed role of a player (AND it should stay that way). A lerk or fade should be scouting and relaying information to teammates, if you're not listening to them then its your own fault.
We are all aware that the problem of game size originates from the lifeform res threshold phenomenon. Larger alien team means longer time until the first and second waves of fades get out. This is an incredibly major factor in determining the course of the game. And the res spread out among gorges can't compensate because more rts would just be too difficult to defend. Basically, you have all that res tied up, waiting uselessly, until the fade(s) can gest. In all other RTS, if you aren't spending your res, you lose. Same here.
So, a significant problem with the game size scaling is the quantum threshold effect(QTE). How could we get around this? Well, efficient res sharing would solve it, but we know from the plugin that this is awkward. Or is it?
The alien commander is offered as the solution, but I believe that res sharing, done well, may solve this problem.
I suggest a REQUEST BASED sharing system through the hive mind. Just a simple modifier key and attempt to gest or build, and you autogenerate the request to the hive mind. Tiny icons on other aliens screens could signify the request. Then they can respond to the requests (like a commander does) and give their res to meet the other player's request.
This system is also more of the traditional alien type where each player's strategic decisions add to the whole. Also, it more strongly emphasizes sharing or greed as part of the team social dynamic. At the same time, it solves the problem of stagnant res spread out across aliens, and addresses the awkwardness of the res sharing plugin.
What about the cool concept of aliens being sucked up into hives? I say use it to play AS the Dynamic Infestation. Tentacles and all that, yes I agree. No alien corn. Mander.
Why not make dropping structures a 2 person job? All resources gained through RT's are handled by the alien commander. The commander can then queue drop locations by dropping a transparent tower wherever he wants one built. These locations will be marked on the map. A gorge would then need to go and initiate each building at which time the cost will be deducted from the commanders pool. However if a gorge wants to build a tower somewhere, he would do it exactly like in NS1, except it will first drop a transparent tower until comfirmed by the commander, it too will be deducted from the commanders pool. This way no one has complete control over the pool and it will still allow individualism.
Individual resources will be gained through kills or building structures(gorges). The commander can also redistribute his own resources to any individual.
Or maybe they can get rid of individual resources altogether and have the commander drop globs of infestation through which the player can interact with and transform into higher lifeforms.
<!--QuoteBegin-Symbiote+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Symbiote)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why not make dropping structures a 2 person job? All resources gained through RT's are handled by the alien commander. The commander can then queue drop locations by dropping a transparent tower wherever he wants one built. These locations will be marked on the map. A gorge would then need to go and initiate each building at which time the cost will be deducted from the commanders pool. However if a gorge wants to build a tower somewhere, he would do it exactly like in NS1, except it will first drop a transparent tower until comfirmed by the commander, it too will be deducted from the commanders pool. This way no one has complete control over the pool and it will still allow individualism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow. <!--quoteo(post=1668888:date=Jan 30 2008, 12:24 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 30 2008, 12:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm, it was mentioned on another thread the idea of a "hive mind", in that, every player on the team makes the decisions - requesting certain structures to be dropped, and approving them - essentially it would've been a voting system. There are obvious problems with this, of course.
I was thinking that instead of everyone on the team requesting/approving through votes, that would be left entirely up to the alien 'commander'. He'd be able to request certain structures be dropped by gorges, and he'd also be able to approve/deny certain structures dropped by gorges. It'd be something like a 'ghost structure' when a gorge initially drops one, and when the alien comm requests one.
The gorges still have a great degree of autonomy; and it would allow the alien team to still build in several places at once, and the alien comm would generally not have to focus on areas where building is present, since that's the job of the gorge. With the absence of an alien commander, then perhaps all structures are automatically approved.
Well, it's an idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> All I can say is, great minds think alike <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
i feel i already do this role in just about every game i play, I just go permanent gorge and drop rt's and chambers and WATCH the MAP.
im on the lookout for where our team is required the most, how many inbound baddies goin where, how many rt's we have, ( who's droping hive and who's fading by at least 5 mins)
first 1 - 4 minutes of game will dictate the rest, and i spend that requesting over mic, asking people with res to spend it.
My best role is MAP WATCHING and commentating (Hive Mind) , Always looking for a phase gate by 3 mins and YELLING out on mic GET OVER HERE.
an essential MAP WATCHING skill is noticing a alien die on your own team and he doesnt say ###### to his team !! no warning there, PG in 30 seconds commin up. It's at that point you will hear me on mic, saying PG UP !!! Get over there.
yelling on the mic SURROUND THE GATE PROPERLY have saved so many hives.
if im not building cause of lack of res, then im looking for a battle scene on the map to heal my team as they push, while im saving for next thing to drop .
I figure the players doing most of the damage dont have time to watch the map, thats where i come in
Alien Commander sounds like a good idea, but IF it screws with what i already do, then i dont want it.
P.S Devs - dont you dare remove the map for aliens or game will be wayyyyyyyyyyy to hard for aliens
The NS2 developers have reassured multiple times that the alien commander will be a unique part of the game. For those who haven't read their responses yet, here they are:
First time the alien commander was revealed: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie: You want to talk about this idea? Max: Well the first thing we should… Specifically when I said people have overlooked stuff: maybe we haven’t explicitly said it about the idea of an alien commander Charlie: yeah we haven’t said that Max: Well I think ... Oh I figured we had to say that is that what you wanted to say? Charlie: I guess so, yeah that’s probably true. Oops! Max: You just shot me a dirty look there Charlie: No I didn’t – oh, I didn’t mean to. It’s fine. Max: Yeah, that’s an idea we’re considering – strongly considering Charlie: Yeah. I could say it’s pretty much definite. Well actually we shouldn’t say that. We think the aliens need a commander for balance, basically to unify the resource model. But I guess we can’t really know until we play test it - for sure. Max: Final subject to change Charlie: yes, that’s a good phrase. So, once aliens have commander that lets us do some really cool things like: You want to tell them this idea? – the canals? Max: Go ahead<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>Notice, that the Alien Comm was probably not intended to be revealed at that time. Based on Charlie's reaction, it looks like a slip-up by Max. They were not ready to discuss it then, but had to deal with negative response to alien comm from the community ever since, most of which is due to misunderstanding of what alien commander will be (see Max's 2nd quote). </i> <!--quoteo(post=1664127:date=Dec 15 2007, 01:53 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 15 2007, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We understand that having two different sides is important to that game. This is in fact one of the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2007/11/9th_podcast" target="_blank">four pillars</a> of NS2 that we talked about previously.
Similar things can also be quite different. Starcraft is full of these, and I think the "tubes" we talked about in the podcast are a good example of that as well. You could say that phase gates and the tubes are the same because they allow players to move between two points on the map quickly. However, they are also different:<ul><li>Travel between the two ends of the tubes will not be instantaneous</li><li>Both sides can use the tubes</li><li>There is an actual gameplay space between the ends of the tube where players can fight, etc.</li><li>Multiple players can travel through (and emerge from) a tube at the same time</li><li>The tubes will be difficult to destroy</li></ul>We think of the alien "commander" the same way. The role of the commander on both sides will be to spend the team's resources (the unified resource model was mentioned in the podcast) and provide support for the other players. Outside of that description, they may act totally differently. That's almost what the Gorge does in NS, except the resource model is a bit wonky (and no we're not removing the Gorge in NS2). Although we are considering a top-down view for the alien commander, that's not a necessity for that role.
We enjoy reading your feedback, so keep it up!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1664131:date=Dec 15 2007, 03:15 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Dec 15 2007, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah I hear you and definitely agree. Let me be clear that the addition of the alien commander isn't definite (we must try it and see if it's better) and we would still be completely focused on keeping the teams unique. That is never going away. Even if the resource model needs to be unified between the two sides, we're not going to see the same tech on both sides with a different skin. The alien Comm would have totally different abilities or "spells" - not droppable medpacks and energy packs!
Think of it like Starcraft or Warcraft 3 - the basic resource model is the same but the sides are totally different. There can even be differences in how resources are gathered, but the asymmetry of a top-down strategy (NS1 marines) vs. a bottom-up strategy (NS1 aliens) presents so many difficulties that I don't think can be ever be fixed properly. An alien Comm could let us really go crazy adding new weapons, abilities and lifeforms later without it breaking the entire system (which in NS1 is quite fragile).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>Now, to the more recent podcast:</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1668641:date=Jan 28 2008, 05:21 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Jan 28 2008, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was being sarcastic when I said it was popular; we're well aware of the negative response it's gotten on the forums. At the moment this doesn't bother us too much since all of the arguments against it are based on people's assumptions of how it will work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1668699:date=Jan 28 2008, 01:48 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Jan 28 2008, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey guys!
I haven't read all the responses yet (geesh!) but I did want to make one point:
An Alien Commander will <b>ONLY be included if it is totally unique and not like the Marine Commander</b>. You absolutely won't see an Alien Comm. dropping medpacks and giving orders to squads of aliens. It's just not going to happen, there would be no point. More important than an Alien Commander is <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">two unique sides</a> (it's first in the list and definitely the most important point). The only reason I think we will have an Alien Comm. at all is to unify the resource model and make the game more uniform and balanced at all server sizes. <b>If it feels generic or removes the uniqueness from the aliens, it will be removed</b>.
We should be able to fix the volume problem for future videocasts.
-Charlie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note: some of their responses were replies and don't include what they were referring to. Click the little red [<-] button to get to their original post.
first 1 - 4 minutes of game will dictate the rest, and i spend that requesting over mic, asking people with res to spend it.
I find myself doing that more than I have to nowadays after the humble bundle sale. Freaking all the noobs join the game just to are save res for onos/exo, when they finally do have enough res for the purchase, they die in less than 30 seconds because they think they are invincible.
Comments
i'd also thought of the idea of the commander being some kind of (wall-crawling?) super-gorge. and you can slice that any way you want, but one of the features it would include would be to -not- have (primarily) top-down view, buildings and such would be placed in the same way a gorge does in NS. and not only the experience, but the roles of either commander would be quite different.
yep this is pretty much what i'm saying
heh. too true.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, read my previous post, it doesn't take away the class, the computer controlled gorges have no offensive abilities like web or spit or bile bomb, only heal spray and build, there like sub gorges, people can still be gorges, and it will still be balanced but no one is forced to be a gorge like in the old NS, I know for a fact that alot of times no one on a team wanted to be a gorge but did so anyways for the good of the team, and much rather would have been lurks and fades and onoses. With this system no one is forced to be a gorge, the whole team could be skulks and fades, but if they wanted to be a gorge the option is still open to them, and it will be better if they do because they have more abilities than the NPC gorges.
so it doesn't take away a class but only removes a draconian burden present in the previous game.
While Marine commander can see from above, I think the alien commander should be able to see in almost a spectate view, of everything around each alien within a certain distance, similar to what Scent of Fear can do.
The Alien commander IMHO, should be small and slow, and able to enter and leave the Hive. This would allow them to move between hives if one of being attacked. Aliens would have to protect the commander. The alien commander would also get to decide what % of resources is allocated to what person. So that if people are wanting to fade who are good, the commander can allocate a greater % of available resources to them.
That's just my idea, as I don't think it would distract from the current NS game or change things too much, but would be an interesting take on it. I'm sure we'll have a great one whatever <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
While Marine commander can see from above, I think the alien commander should be able to see in almost a spectate view, of everything around each alien within a certain distance, similar to what Scent of Fear can do.
The Alien commander IMHO, should be small and slow, and able to enter and leave the Hive. This would allow them to move between hives if one of being attacked. Aliens would have to protect the commander. The alien commander would also get to decide what % of resources is allocated to what person. So that if people are wanting to fade who are good, the commander can allocate a greater % of available resources to them.
That's just my idea, as I don't think it would distract from the current NS game or change things too much, but would be an interesting take on it. I'm sure we'll have a great one whatever <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
under that plan, the commander could give all resources to one person, and you would get a 5 minute onos, gg marines.
Also, have lifeform & structure resources on different pools, no insta onos's or whatever would be reasonable. :o
What your basically suggesting is the commander will be as useful as a leaky pisspot. Having everyone hopping in and out of the chair every few minutes would be like playing a chess game with the black side changing players every 5 minutes, what you would end up with is each new player coming in ignorant of the previous players strategy, ignorantly walking into traps that he didn't witness being set up, and making new strategies that trample over old strategies destroying all the progress of the older ones creating a chaotic cluster###### as newbs turret farm and pros are left to watch in amazement as their base is annihilated.
Unless you make it "so simple" that it becomes the tactical equivalent of a retard playing Simon says with a single flashing blue button, so that the alien team is left standing around with a stupid look on their face as their commander is only able to do the most basic and useless things while the human team with their greater tactical prowess is flanking them in the bum.
anway, aside from the alien commander the game is looking good, keep it up.
What your basically suggesting is the commander will be as useful as a leaky pisspot. Having everyone hopping in and out of the chair every few minutes would be like playing a chess game with the black side changing players every 5 minutes, what you would end up with is each new player coming in ignorant of the previous players strategy, ignorantly walking into traps that he didn't witness being set up, and making new strategies that trample over old strategies destroying all the progress of the older ones creating a chaotic cluster###### as newbs turret farm and pros are left to watch in amazement as their base is annihilated.
Unless you make it "so simple" that it becomes the tactical equivalent of a retard playing Simon says with a single flashing blue button, so that the alien team is left standing around with a stupid look on their face as their commander is only able to do the most basic and useless things while the human team with their greater tactical prowess is flanking them in the bum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as i understood it, the term 'alien commander' didnt necessary have to mean that there would be 1 guy, deciding what their team should and shouldnt do. But to balance the resource system that they felt was inadequate in ns1. Who says that the alien commander needs to have that much responsibility?
Might be just me, but i was kind of fond of the concept that aliens were more reliant on the communication of the whole team, instead of one particular commander.
By doing this you give the Marines incentive to burn away the infection as part of securing an area.
Of course I could just be insane.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just think this needed to be said again, as it is totally awesome.
This would be an excellent implementation.
This would be an excellent implementation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be boring to play.
Comm gets a RTS overview, which means if he has a mic he has a substantial advantage for spotting enemies and rallying friendly troops. Time to share my brain storm for what it's worth: Give gorges some kind of expendable creature (baby gorge!) that comes out of it's shell (like the scorpion comes out of Blackout in transformers), then can recon ahead of combat aliens (like the little black robot that leads Storm Troopers around the death star). Gorge gestates, the recon being illuminates enemies on minimap, recon being croaks then the gorge "grows" a new one eventually while building/healing.
Dev's have been able to balance NS1 pretty well with creative solutions that keep to the story line. I'm confident NS2 will be a sequel not a spinoff.
In addition there seems to be much more desire to play as marines. And I think this is attributable to the fact that as games progress light armored marines are still extremely effective and skulks are extremely ineffective. Meaning dying as a marine isn't stressful at all because you can still get kills. Skulks however can do little killing and die in less then half a second.
I think tying alien life forms to RTs and Hives may be the best solution. For example aliens spawn with 25 res. 20 for the hive and 5 for the RT. Each additional RT adds 5 res and each Hive 20. There would be no res gain during life and upon death res would be restored. Something like that i think would be very effective.
However, if it must be done, uniqueness remains the key. I think LucidDream is on the right track. In some way the "Hive Mind" or Alien commander needs to be severely limited. I would tend to go with a very sensory experience for the interface. Perhaps instead of seeing the plain map, the Alien commander would see a sort of heat map. Colored blobs would show the presence of lifeforms and maybe sources of warmth such as generators or conducts. Using the cursor you could hover over these hot spots which would produce sounds that would allow you to further identify the type of lifeform you're looking at (a deep heartbeat for marines, for instance).
Something very far from the HUD of Marines, in any case. I'll try and make a mockup.
no alien commander please
i think the reasons are in the comments above (and in the 2 site text of course)
Huh, really? I always felt the opposite, except the very final phases of the round, where heavy armor makes biting futile, and W3 A3 LMGs pose enough of a threat to fades that they have to run away to heal after taking one down.
needless to say playtesting this commander wouldnt hurt because we could see if we liked it
Honestly the idea of an alien commander sounds really scary. I mean, I think everyone here knows about the Marines commanders... I used to me a newb until i learned what the rines want. and built it.
Also, as aliens it didnt break your team if say someone who was horrable as a fade or onos, dies, your team could recover heck I remember back in the day of a 2 hour game where it was going back and forth, rines gain ground, then aliens. Honestly it was the most fun I had with a game.
So I mean it all depeneds on what the resorce problem was. I mean gorges got the prority on res so they could build things. I mean I know I've lost plently of res on very poorly placed OC's or other chambers. And I paid for it with my own res... I dunno I kind of liked the aline building cuase really you could mess around and while yes your failures effected your team, it wasn't team ending.
Also, sometimes its not all the commanders fualt. I mean I don't know how many times I've lost to games where people just can't hit the aliens to kill them. I mean aiming IS a skill. I mean the best commander in the world can't do anything if there marines can't kill anything... and honestly turrets... cost way too much early game I mean I know you used to be able to turret walk to a hive. (that was fun to do as rines too =p)
Balancing is a *bleep!*. You may not see it but the countless hours spent by the Devs sure know it. Depending on how many different versions of NS1 you were around for, you may recognize it too.
We are all aware that the problem of game size originates from the lifeform res threshold phenomenon. Larger alien team means longer time until the first and second waves of fades get out. This is an incredibly major factor in determining the course of the game. And the res spread out among gorges can't compensate because more rts would just be too difficult to defend. Basically, you have all that res tied up, waiting uselessly, until the fade(s) can gest. In all other RTS, if you aren't spending your res, you lose. Same here.
So, a significant problem with the game size scaling is the quantum threshold effect(QTE). How could we get around this? Well, efficient res sharing would solve it, but we know from the plugin that this is awkward. Or is it?
The alien commander is offered as the solution, but I believe that res sharing, done well, may solve this problem.
I suggest a REQUEST BASED sharing system through the hive mind. Just a simple modifier key and attempt to gest or build, and you autogenerate the request to the hive mind. Tiny icons on other aliens screens could signify the request. Then they can respond to the requests (like a commander does) and give their res to meet the other player's request.
This system is also more of the traditional alien type where each player's strategic decisions add to the whole. Also, it more strongly emphasizes sharing or greed as part of the team social dynamic. At the same time, it solves the problem of stagnant res spread out across aliens, and addresses the awkwardness of the res sharing plugin.
What about the cool concept of aliens being sucked up into hives? I say use it to play AS the Dynamic Infestation. Tentacles and all that, yes I agree. No alien corn. Mander.
Individual resources will be gained through kills or building structures(gorges). The commander can also redistribute his own resources to any individual.
Or maybe they can get rid of individual resources altogether and have the commander drop globs of infestation through which the player can interact with and transform into higher lifeforms.
Wow.
<!--quoteo(post=1668888:date=Jan 30 2008, 12:24 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 30 2008, 12:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm, it was mentioned on another thread the idea of a "hive mind", in that, every player on the team makes the decisions - requesting certain structures to be dropped, and approving them - essentially it would've been a voting system. There are obvious problems with this, of course.
I was thinking that instead of everyone on the team requesting/approving through votes, that would be left entirely up to the alien 'commander'. He'd be able to request certain structures be dropped by gorges, and he'd also be able to approve/deny certain structures dropped by gorges. It'd be something like a 'ghost structure' when a gorge initially drops one, and when the alien comm requests one.
The gorges still have a great degree of autonomy; and it would allow the alien team to still build in several places at once, and the alien comm would generally not have to focus on areas where building is present, since that's the job of the gorge. With the absence of an alien commander, then perhaps all structures are automatically approved.
Well, it's an idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I can say is, great minds think alike <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
im on the lookout for where our team is required the most, how many inbound baddies goin where, how many rt's we have, ( who's droping hive and who's fading by at least 5 mins)
first 1 - 4 minutes of game will dictate the rest, and i spend that requesting over mic, asking people with res to spend it.
My best role is MAP WATCHING and commentating (Hive Mind) , Always looking for a phase gate by 3 mins and YELLING out on mic GET OVER HERE.
an essential MAP WATCHING skill is noticing a alien die on your own team and he doesnt say ###### to his team !! no warning there, PG in 30 seconds commin up. It's at that point you will hear me on mic, saying PG UP !!! Get over there.
yelling on the mic SURROUND THE GATE PROPERLY have saved so many hives.
if im not building cause of lack of res, then im looking for a battle scene on the map to heal my team as they push, while im saving for next thing to drop .
I figure the players doing most of the damage dont have time to watch the map, thats where i come in
Alien Commander sounds like a good idea, but IF it screws with what i already do, then i dont want it.
P.S Devs - dont you dare remove the map for aliens or game will be wayyyyyyyyyyy to hard for aliens
First time the alien commander was revealed:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie: You want to talk about this idea?
Max: Well the first thing we should… Specifically when I said people have overlooked stuff: maybe we haven’t explicitly said it about the idea of an alien commander
Charlie: yeah we haven’t said that
Max: Well I think ... Oh I figured we had to say that is that what you wanted to say?
Charlie: I guess so, yeah that’s probably true. Oops!
Max: You just shot me a dirty look there
Charlie: No I didn’t – oh, I didn’t mean to. It’s fine.
Max: Yeah, that’s an idea we’re considering – strongly considering
Charlie: Yeah. I could say it’s pretty much definite. Well actually we shouldn’t say that. We think the aliens need a commander for balance, basically to unify the resource model. But I guess we can’t really know until we play test it - for sure.
Max: Final subject to change
Charlie: yes, that’s a good phrase. So, once aliens have commander that lets us do some really cool things like: You want to tell them this idea? – the canals?
Max: Go ahead<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Notice, that the Alien Comm was probably not intended to be revealed at that time. Based on Charlie's reaction, it looks like a slip-up by Max. They were not ready to discuss it then, but had to deal with negative response to alien comm from the community ever since, most of which is due to misunderstanding of what alien commander will be (see Max's 2nd quote).
</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1664127:date=Dec 15 2007, 01:53 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 15 2007, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We understand that having two different sides is important to that game. This is in fact one of the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2007/11/9th_podcast" target="_blank">four pillars</a> of NS2 that we talked about previously.
Similar things can also be quite different. Starcraft is full of these, and I think the "tubes" we talked about in the podcast are a good example of that as well. You could say that phase gates and the tubes are the same because they allow players to move between two points on the map quickly. However, they are also different:<ul><li>Travel between the two ends of the tubes will not be instantaneous</li><li>Both sides can use the tubes</li><li>There is an actual gameplay space between the ends of the tube where players can fight, etc.</li><li>Multiple players can travel through (and emerge from) a tube at the same time</li><li>The tubes will be difficult to destroy</li></ul>We think of the alien "commander" the same way. The role of the commander on both sides will be to spend the team's resources (the unified resource model was mentioned in the podcast) and provide support for the other players. Outside of that description, they may act totally differently. That's almost what the Gorge does in NS, except the resource model is a bit wonky (and no we're not removing the Gorge in NS2). Although we are considering a top-down view for the alien commander, that's not a necessity for that role.
We enjoy reading your feedback, so keep it up!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1664131:date=Dec 15 2007, 03:15 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Dec 15 2007, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah I hear you and definitely agree. Let me be clear that the addition of the alien commander isn't definite (we must try it and see if it's better) and we would still be completely focused on keeping the teams unique. That is never going away. Even if the resource model needs to be unified between the two sides, we're not going to see the same tech on both sides with a different skin. The alien Comm would have totally different abilities or "spells" - not droppable medpacks and energy packs!
Think of it like Starcraft or Warcraft 3 - the basic resource model is the same but the sides are totally different. There can even be differences in how resources are gathered, but the asymmetry of a top-down strategy (NS1 marines) vs. a bottom-up strategy (NS1 aliens) presents so many difficulties that I don't think can be ever be fixed properly. An alien Comm could let us really go crazy adding new weapons, abilities and lifeforms later without it breaking the entire system (which in NS1 is quite fragile).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Now, to the more recent podcast:</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1668641:date=Jan 28 2008, 05:21 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Jan 28 2008, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was being sarcastic when I said it was popular; we're well aware of the negative response it's gotten on the forums. At the moment this doesn't bother us too much since all of the arguments against it are based on people's assumptions of how it will work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1668699:date=Jan 28 2008, 01:48 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Jan 28 2008, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey guys!
I haven't read all the responses yet (geesh!) but I did want to make one point:
An Alien Commander will <b>ONLY be included if it is totally unique and not like the Marine Commander</b>. You absolutely won't see an Alien Comm. dropping medpacks and giving orders to squads of aliens. It's just not going to happen, there would be no point. More important than an Alien Commander is <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">two unique sides</a> (it's first in the list and definitely the most important point). The only reason I think we will have an Alien Comm. at all is to unify the resource model and make the game more uniform and balanced at all server sizes. <b>If it feels generic or removes the uniqueness from the aliens, it will be removed</b>.
We should be able to fix the volume problem for future videocasts.
-Charlie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note: some of their responses were replies and don't include what they were referring to. Click the little red [<-] button to get to their original post.
I find myself doing that more than I have to nowadays after the humble bundle sale. Freaking all the noobs join the game just to are save res for onos/exo, when they finally do have enough res for the purchase, they die in less than 30 seconds because they think they are invincible.
/smh
*How does this specific guy keep finding those old threads lately