I am 100% in favor of putting in rotating viewpoint. the way NS 1 is always frustrated me because of the inability to perform the skulks coolest ability effectively! (coolest ability = wall climbing) AvP 2 alien gameplay was amazing. it had the little blue bar thingys to show which way the ground was, it had preemptive view rotation when you jumped off a wall, so you wouldnt snap quickly when you hit the ground or somethingl, it had the ability to tilt your head above horizontal and not fall of the ceiling (because it was like you were on the ground, so looking up wouldnt make you fly up to the ceiling! dur) and when you jumped you leapt off the surface you were on! i dont remember it exactly, but i feel like the only way to leave the surface you were on was to leap off it, and you would just smoothly cling to obtrusions and run right over them, not having to adjust the way you were looking to climb over some box on the ground. you just kept running forward.
sure it may have been a little "disorienting" at first, but for ######s sake, Portal is a little disorienting at first, and nobody gives a flying ######. you just get used to it, and then the game is AMAZING. just adjust the way you think about the fake world youre playing in, like you did to not get sick playing portals, and youll be fine.
i LOVED AvP 2 wall crawling, and it only facilitated awesome gameplay and subsequently 1000's of dead marines.
PLEASE PUT IN VIEW ROTATION FOR WALL CRAWLING! ill be ever so disappointed if you dont!
T_T
(seriously though, i understand youre working with a differant engine than they had for AvP 2...but how many years ago was that? i admit i dont know ###### about coding or programming, and maybe you cant...but if you got that close with HL 1... i feel like you could make it work what with all the advanced technology we have nowadays)
(and when i hear newb friendly it usually means more simple, which makes it no fun once the player becomes advanced. so if you do want to dumb it down for the masses (youre core fanbase?) then at least have the ability to make it more complex, rewarding, and FUN)...i.e., have wall crawling + rotating viewpoint + stick to walls easily
I said Shift key because thats the default key. Did you seriously not understand that? If the guy doesnt know about the functionality of the walk, i.e. +speed key, us telling him to 'just use the walk key' will obviously lead to another post of 'whats the walk key'.
Your next comment about 'lower class attitude' almost sounded like it made some sense (despite being offensive to them, a tactic you employ on purpose), but then you came out with your next retarded comment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, NS2 needs to be a HP battle. Forsake all skill, just turn it into a number crunching game.
HI I HAVE MORE HP THAN YOU, I WIN.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop being a goddamn tool. Video games are HP battles. Every freaking shooter ever made is an HP battle. NS *IS* a number crunching game; if they added 20 hp to the fade you'd probably rip all your hair out. Stop flamebaiting every thread in every forum.
If you want to actually discuss the topic of lessening the learning curve (and/or my approach to that, being a new more newb-friendly additional starting class), we'd all welcome it. Just do it in an actually mature way rather than this childish banter you're consistently pulling. And you wonder why people dislike you (and even 'elites' since you pretend you're our goddamn spokesman or something rather than just another tool we all look down on).
<!--quoteo(post=1665531:date=Dec 28 2007, 07:28 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Dec 28 2007, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Domining, just leave already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> --> __/
rage
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I said Shift key because thats the default key. Did you seriously not understand that? If the guy doesnt know about the functionality of the walk, i.e. +speed key, us telling him to 'just use the walk key' will obviously lead to another post of 'whats the walk key'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It took me about 5 seconds to realize that you're talking about walk. I've always rebound my shift key in every game I played to duck. It was kind of automatic for me to assume that you're talking about duck.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your next comment about 'lower class attitude' almost sounded like it made some sense (despite being offensive to them, a tactic you employ on purpose), but then you came out with your next retarded comment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stop being a goddamn tool. Video games are HP battles. Every freaking shooter ever made is an HP battle. NS *IS* a number crunching game; if they added 20 hp to the fade you'd probably rip all your hair out. Stop flamebaiting every thread in every forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh because I thought that you could always win through better aiming/movement/map control/timing skills (I'm taking quake games here as an example when I say map control). I wasn't aware that every game was an HP battle, that's a striking realization.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want to actually discuss the topic of lessening the learning curve (and/or my approach to that, being a new more newb-friendly additional starting class), we'd all welcome it. Just do it in an actually mature way rather than this childish banter you're consistently pulling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really like how you get worked up over me disagreeing with your idea. There is nothing I said aimed toward you which a sane person would consider inflammatory. Its a valid point and I'm shooting down ideas I think are stupid and am bringing up solid arguments.
You're leaning towards creating a tank alien which is meant to do nothing but soak bullets. Since its slow, that'd throw all aiming skills out of the window. And if there is no aiming involved then what traits will set the better players apart from newer players when killing it? Its a huge step back in online competition.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you wonder why people dislike you (and even 'elites' since you pretend you're our goddamn spokesman or something rather than just another tool we all look down on).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cute. It looks like your text is steaming with rage, its almost coming out of my monitor. You have many personality issues.
A) Do I really wonder why people dislike me? B) I never knew you were an 'elite', I always thought you were just a terrible, unpopular map maker C) Start naming people who you include in your "WE". Is it a unnamed NWO conspiracy group of elite ns players? Do you even have any e-friends?
Well that has me excited. I would really look forward to such a mechanic. It would require thinking other things through as well, such as ceiling design, in that it should have even more distinguished features like lights you'd never find on the ground. Also perhaps the infestation should be made to 'drip' so as to help players understand their orientation.
The only other game I know on the Source engine right now that has a potentially disorienting camera feature is Dystopia. In its Cyberspace you can look up or down with no limitation, meaning you can look up until the floor is above you (ie: turn upside down). It can certainly be disorienting, but it has helped me in many battles and adds a fun perspective. Not to mention it already changes camera based on your current "floor" in Cyberspace. That is of course different from what the Skulk's camera functions will be, but I'm sure things can be learned from that implementation.
On the other hand, I'd really hate if it were implemented as an option. Naturally no one will be comfortable with it at first, so players who don't accept change well are hardly going to even try it. There will be the common thought that a steady camera is more advantageous and thus the stylish view will barely even be used, making its implementation somewhat wasted and cause problems between those who just wanna have fun and those who could care less about the means to kill and win.
<!--quoteo(post=1665472:date=Dec 29 2007, 02:48 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Dec 29 2007, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But it does sound like you should comment on this other post i made about a <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103385" target="_blank"><u>new, more newb-friendly starting class</u></a>, which imo is exactly what NS2 needs (without changing the current skulk whatsoever).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1665392:date=Dec 28 2007, 10:02 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Dec 28 2007, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so. you either <i>[...]</i> or perhaps you choose something else as the 'starting class' and have the skulk become an early evolution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> or, i'll add to that, a second optional (more newbie-friendly) class, i think i've mentioned this in another thread or two before
i actually think they should <b>try</b> gorge as the starting class (maybe kick up its ranged attack weapon) - anyway, fiction-wise, gorge is the... progenitor of the alien buildings, so why not the other alien lifeforms too?
but, i'll give your thread a read in a moment, and maybe reply to that thread
<!--quoteo(post=1665546:date=Dec 29 2007, 11:02 AM:name=TerraGamerX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TerraGamerX @ Dec 29 2007, 11:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other hand, I'd really hate if it were implemented as an option. Naturally no one will be comfortable with it at first, so players who don't accept change well are hardly going to even try it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. And everyone's experience as a skulk would be different - there'd be no uniformity. And how would that go for reviewers? I think by leaving the choice up to players, that suggests the devs weren't able to make the choice themselves, and that's suggestive of their competency.
<!--quoteo(post=1665546:date=Dec 29 2007, 11:02 AM:name=TerraGamerX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TerraGamerX @ Dec 29 2007, 11:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There will be the common thought that a steady camera is more advantageous and thus the stylish view will barely even be used, making its implementation somewhat wasted and cause problems between those who just wanna have fun and those who could care less about the means to kill and win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I foresee a split of opinion and a new excuse for noob-bashing, that is, if you don't use the 'more elite' view rotation option, you're a noob even if you're still making kills. Or something of that variety.. Yeah, I'm pessimistic.
So basically, no option. It's either one or the other. Leave that up to the devs to test and decide. So rather than argue about whether view rotation is a good idea or not, or making it an option; let's think about how it might be best implemented. Things already discussed would be unique 'ceiling terrain' like tubes, lights, infestation that drips 'up', an arrow pointing true down, making the arrow part of the crosshair. And implications - the skulk may become an even more advanced class, with a steeper learning curve - how might you fix that?
on a sidenote, say view rotation is implemented, i'd like to see a mod/custom maps, where marines would have like uh.. magnetic shoes, or something. wall-walking for marines, ###### yeah.
<!--quoteo(post=1665558:date=Dec 28 2007, 08:22 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Dec 28 2007, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><snip> i actually think they should <b>try</b> gorge as the starting class (maybe kick up its ranged attack weapon) - anyway, fiction-wise, gorge is the... progenitor of the alien buildings, so why not the other alien lifeforms too? </snip><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looking back, it seems that the current "skulk as base class" originated when it was a one gorge game. This could very well be a good idea. Mix this idea with an alien commando and I'm going way off topic.
I don't think Gorge as starting class would work. Part of the charm is being a decent fighter class right off the bat, plus gorges have a lot of responsibilities.
But the skulk is simply too hard, too unique, too unfamiliar. Small model, (primarily) melee attacks, wall-walking, very quick movements, (reliance on) advanced movements, requires good skill to be able to kill decently-skilled marines, the concept of the one-man ambush, the concept of not moving to your enemy in a straight line on the ground, etc.
The skulk may be representative of the alienness of the Kharaa team - so newer players, they get the picture - it's part of the first-time experience, the immersion; but it is precisely because of this that it's hardly accessible to newer players.
If only you could get new players to spectate the obligatory match before they're allowed to jump into the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> (No, I'm not serious, that's a horrible idea.)
<!--quoteo(post=1665653:date=Dec 29 2007, 03:50 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Dec 29 2007, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But being a puny gorge would be even worse since they'd be killed fast and be all "Awrgh, this is the <i>worst game ever</i>!".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you serious? Gorges heal, have more hit points, and have some serious ranged combat with adrenaline or even speed with celerity or longevity with carapace / more healing.
Then mix that all together with a pack of those against marines with just LMGs? I take it you haven't ever seen the Gorge Rush, which has been put to music in a gaming video or two for the enjoyment of all.
In my NS1 gaming experience, I have seen a pair of skulks die easier than a pair of gorges. So I have you ask, are you serious?
This discussion certainly went in a different direction than I expected. To all of you that suggested we'd include view rotation in the game even if it was disorienting, shame on you! That was one of the major points of the blog post -- we implemented the feature, it wasn't good enough to include, so we cut it. If we end up with the same issues in Natural Selection 2, we'd make the same decision.
I think I may have been a little unclear in the last paragraph of the blog. I didn't mean specifically I was excited about view rotation (whether or not we even try it is still up in the air), but rather unique movement abilities in general. One of the things I enjoyed the most about working on Natural Selection was revising the Lerk flight for 2.0. We really wanted to give the player the sense of being a winged creature so we added the flapping/gliding mechanism. Some of the other movement abilities we could never quite get to work the way we wanted due to issues with the code or limitations of the collision detection functions on the client and server. A good example is the original Fade blink, where we couldn't fix the problem of getting stuck in walls so we had to redesign the ability to work differently.
So essentially what I meant was I'm looking forward to talking these abilities to the next level of awesomeness. Obviously the movement design/code is a big thing that contributes to the "feel" of the game and is something that I think really sets Natural Selection apart from other games, so that should be getting a lot of attention in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1665656:date=Dec 29 2007, 11:19 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 29 2007, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you serious? Gorges heal, have more hit points, and have some serious ranged combat with adrenaline or even speed with celerity or longevity with carapace / more healing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Those are mid-game upgrades. Skulks are dangerous from the start. A gorge duo might be a challenge even at the start of the game, unless of course there are also two marines concentrating fire on one gorge at a time, but a pair of skulks hanging around a corner would pretty much guarantee a kill, and be there much faster, and possibly provide wallhax.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then mix that all together with a pack of those against marines with just LMGs? I take it you haven't ever seen the Gorge Rush, which has been put to music in a gaming video or two for the enjoyment of all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If an entire team can organize to do anything it doesn't matter what class they use. Skulk rushes used to be very effective too, but now marines are wise enough to stay back in the base for a bit.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my NS1 gaming experience, I have seen a pair of skulks die easier than a pair of gorges. So I have you ask, are you serious?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Skulks don't attack from the front, but gorges do. I sure hope those skulks weren't disadvantaged somehow?
<!--quoteo(post=1665661:date=Dec 30 2007, 11:44 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 30 2007, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This discussion certainly went in a different direction than I expected. To all of you that suggested we'd include view rotation in the game even if it was disorienting, shame on you! That was one of the major points of the blog post -- we implemented the feature, it wasn't good enough to include, so we cut it. If we end up with the same issues in Natural Selection 2, we'd make the same decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After playing the Alien games, the feature was useful for climbing in vents and so on, but it make it extreamly hard to know how you would leap and attack a marine or something.
<!--quoteo(post=1665661:date=Dec 30 2007, 11:44 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 30 2007, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I may have been a little unclear in the last paragraph of the blog. I didn't mean specifically I was excited about view rotation (whether or not we even try it is still up in the air), but rather unique movement abilities in general. One of the things I enjoyed the most about working on Natural Selection was revising the Lerk flight for 2.0. We really wanted to give the player the sense of being a winged creature so we added the flapping/gliding mechanism. Some of the other movement abilities we could never quite get to work the way we wanted due to issues with the code or limitations of the collision detection functions on the client and server. A good example is the original Fade blink, where we couldn't fix the problem of getting stuck in walls so we had to redesign the ability to work differently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Making all the creatures different in certain ways was a very good idea, i liked toe lerks flight ability, but at times it didn't seem sturdy enough like gliding downwards on an angle wasn't really fast enough, as well as the lurk didn't get fast enough while gliding down over a period of time; perhaps the lerk should be able to go at any speed when gliding downwards but it takes a long time without cerelity (spelling of speed skill)
The fades blink was almost an identical copy of the skulks leap, only it had more balance and was a lot smoother.
<!--quoteo(post=1665661:date=Dec 30 2007, 11:44 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 30 2007, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So essentially what I meant was I'm looking forward to talking these abilities to the next level of awesomeness. Obviously the movement design/code is a big thing that contributes to the "feel" of the game and is something that I think really sets Natural Selection apart from other games, so that should be getting a lot of attention in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In most games i've played, all of the creatures movement animation/types were basically the same only had different speeds/energy usage and so on, NS has a very good variety of movement types like the lerk's flight and the skulk wall walking ability.
I'm glad to see developers that like to be creative with everything, not just make a game where their are 2 different types of 1 model, take Gears of War for example, the Locust Grunt and the Humans for example (the same)
<!--quoteo(post=1665656:date=Dec 29 2007, 05:19 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 29 2007, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you serious? Gorges heal, have more hit points, and have some serious ranged combat with adrenaline or even speed with celerity or longevity with carapace / more healing.
Then mix that all together with a pack of those against marines with just LMGs? I take it you haven't ever seen the Gorge Rush, which has been put to music in a gaming video or two for the enjoyment of all.
In my NS1 gaming experience, I have seen a pair of skulks die easier than a pair of gorges. So I have you ask, are you serious?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I take it you haven't seen one good shotgunner paired with one good commander. Gorges as an offensive class are a joke. Their massive tanking ability makes them a bit overpowered though, imo.
edit: In my NS1 experience, I have seen pubbers get raped by clanners. What's your point?
<!--quoteo(post=1665472:date=Dec 28 2007, 06:48 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Dec 28 2007, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Darktimes, try using your Shift key. It will make aliens stick a lot more to the wall. If you're on a flat surface, you cant get off the wall. If you're going around a 90 degree turn, as long as you are looking at the other side within 90 degrees, you'll make it around the turn without falling. It works pretty nicely, but it does slow you down significantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is the problem its slow you down, its need to by hold that make you a easy target make that, that you only need to press it, not to hold and i will not WALK this is never used and most skulks run on the floor, not on the walls that make it for newbies easyer to be better and to distopia, it would be cool but its decrease the orientation the system is fine. but plz make that
<!--quoteo(post=1665694:date=Dec 30 2007, 01:37 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Dec 30 2007, 01:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I take it you haven't seen one good shotgunner paired with one good commander. Gorges as an offensive class are a joke. Their massive tanking ability makes them a bit overpowered though, imo.
edit: In my NS1 experience, I have seen pubbers get raped by clanners. What's your point?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh I've seen that, but it doesn't change a that a shotgun in the right hands is going to hurt everything up to even fades, so its hardly a good example. We are talking about a starting life form that works well for new players to the Natural Selection game experience, yes? So let me list you more than one point here:
- In a new players experience for First Person Shooters, what is more likely, that they have played wall walking, melee, low hit points before, or that they have fired a weapon at an opponent before? - New players are often recognized by being straight line running, front side charging, and most likely to die as a skulk. As a gorge, using ranged combat and healing, using cover is something most FPS players have done before. - Higher hit points and the ability to heal can prove good tools for a chance not to be an insta-gib and actually learn something from your new NS2 combat experiences against the Marines. - Just about any chamber in the early game makes sense for a gorge, one strategy can be just as viable as the others. Also, seeing as this is NS2, who is to say chambers will be the same chained to hive as in NS1?
As well, ideas have been put forward that would make going skulk for those who want to easy enough, hardly an issue there, we are just talking about the default spawning life form, which, if some ideas on spawning are observed, may not even be an issue in NS2, you could spawn as whatever or where-ever you want possibly, it would just be something that comes up for those not recognizing they even have a choice in the matter yet.
On top of that, we're not sure exactly what a Kharaa Commander entails, so do gorges still drop chambers?
And something I just thought of, if the "training" wheels were really necessary, couldn't you let a gorge wall walk until their energy runs out or something? Wall walking isn't such a foreign concept to gamers, its the being thrown in the thick of it FPV with melee instead of ranged combat that gets most new players a bit out of sorts and dying just a little bit too much for the overall enjoyment and first impression of the game.
Most FPS games treat melee as a last resort option, where ammo has all but ran out - or it is used to humiliate other players. Not surprisingly most players probably don't melee as often as is required by a skulk, it does require a different kind of game play than most are used to - I wouldn't be surprised if those who like playing things like Spy class in Team Fortress 2 are the ones who take to the Skulk the quickest, and many a TF2 Spy will admit it is not the easiest way to play.
Imagine yourself as a Skulk... when you are walking on the walls, or roof, you can SENSE where you are, because of gravity... It would be obvious and simple to guide yourself thru the walls... In the game you can't sense the gravity of course... maybe there could be a graphic animation, like a distortion over everything, as they are being pushed to the floor... something soft but that would make some difference.
You know when you are driving so fast in need for speed (for exemple) that the view gets a little distorced to give us a speed feeling? I was thinking in something like that.. a distorcion giving us the direction of the floor..
<!--quoteo(post=1665661:date=Dec 29 2007, 11:44 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 29 2007, 11:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This discussion certainly went in a different direction than I expected. To all of you that suggested we'd include view rotation in the game even if it was disorienting, shame on you! That was one of the major points of the blog post -- we implemented the feature, it wasn't good enough to include, so we cut it. If we end up with the same issues in Natural Selection 2, we'd make the same decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe view rotation will always be a bit disorienting then you are not used to it, but as you get used to it, it will stop being disorienting. This is ofcourse, if the feature itself is good enough, cause the snapping of views can always disorient you, if you haven't really though about how your view will rotate beofre the jump.
What I'm trying to say is, I would love if you got view rotation to work with as little feel of snapping as possible. And don't give up the view rotation to early, it takes atleast a couple of hours to get used to it, so if you decide to try it in NS 2, test it throughout before you dismiss it, if you do. An effective view rotation will increase the tactical effect of walls and ceilings.
Back in the day of HL1 when you started a new game you had to get trough a "learning my suit fonctions map". Especially to learn how to use the big jump (crouch and jump in a fast sequence). This was not really difficult and most players where 'rebinding' INGAME their keys to make it ergonomic and match the player needs. Whoever you where ; left or right handed.
The thing is; if NS or NS2 has a learning curve that is more difficult. Why don't we have some 'tutorial map' ?
It can be done for a lot of classes and things like evolving and test upgrades. -Skulk : wall walking, upgrading (cloak / celerity etc.) -Gorge : learning how to build and use OCs and chambers. -Marins : building, welding (+closing vent), JP flying etc.
It can be quite good. Using RCbots is a common thing on some servers. Using a bot ot enhance the map scenario is a thing that can be handled.
For example a gorge has to learn how to build and place an OC. Using marins bots can help learning some little things like; how much time it takes for an oc to kill a marin? how to place the OC in a way that makes it pretty efficient etc...
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1665235:date=Dec 25 2007, 08:03 PM:name=RoCity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RoCity @ Dec 25 2007, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Walljumping itself doesn't make sense, it isnt realistic. Are we sure we still have walljumping in NS2? In third person view the skulk is jumping from his hips :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know if the devs have explicitly stated wall jumping/vaulting is going in NS2 but it is something that they liked and had wanted to get in NS1 earlier. I would think if they could, they would implement it in NS2. <!--quoteo(post=1665378:date=Dec 27 2007, 06:12 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Dec 27 2007, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think NS2 can't handle view rotation. IMO the maps of NS are already the most complicated in practically any game. Skulks need to learn the hiding spots all over every map, and more than half of them are off the floor.
If the players already knew the maps well, the view rotation could be cool. But when players dont know the maps, the view rotation will hinder their ability to learn, and badly. Its hard enough learning the ceilings of maps (especially almost no other game requires this so it seems so different), but add in a completely view realignment and suddenly the player is overwhelmed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a pretty good point. Learning an NS map can be pretty difficult. If my view it was changing it would be like learning the map 4 times over for me. I think this is done well enough implicitly through wallwalking now. <!--quoteo(post=1665392:date=Dec 27 2007, 08:02 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Dec 27 2007, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 needs new players, it can't rely on the hardcore fanboys with biased views and elitist attitudes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, but it can't rely on new players either. It needs a mix of both. If the devs can create a game that keeps most of the fanboys/community and attracts new players that would be ideal. To use a common phrase "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater". Still If a game were created that only satisfied the community who liked NS1, UW would be left with a very small audience.
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
I suspect jumping from one plane to another and having the view reorient dynamically at any point (or smoothly for that matter) would completely disorient and confuse me (e.g. especially during execution of an attack). It sounds cool, but humans aren't insects and we aren't skulks, our brain just isn't developed to handle constant 3d reorientation (especially without other cues like, say, gravity). That said, I haven't played a game with view reorientation so I'm game to give it a shot...
<!--quoteo(post=1665991:date=Jan 2 2008, 08:29 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jan 2 2008, 08:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, but it can't rely on new players either. It needs a mix of both. If the devs can create a game that keeps most of the fanboys/community and attracts new players that would be ideal. To use a common phrase "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater". Still If a game were created that only satisfied the community who liked NS1, UW would be left with a very small audience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's also a saying in literary circles about "killing your baby". Regardless of how much you like a paragraph or game feature or whatever we're talking about, if it wont feed you: kill it.
The NS1 fanboys won't like NS2 regardless of how good it is- if past multiplayer sequels are anything to go by.
Look at Counter-Strike- the Source version had minute differences, but the overall game is identical; yet those minute differences seem exagerated to the fanboys/pros and they can't come to grips with Source.
(Okay- you could argue the Source netcode is absolutely awful and makes a huge difference- but it's a problem NS2 will face as it's moving to Source too)
If I were a developer I'd put 90% of my efforts into attracting new players to the game. Sure, the NS1 playerbase is a good playerbase (for an internet community, anyway- 13 months of downtime and we're still here!) but it's just too small- it's not worth the effort trying to please us.
<!--quoteo(post=1666143:date=Jan 3 2008, 07:38 AM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sherpa @ Jan 3 2008, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The NS1 fanboys won't like NS2 regardless of how good it is- if past multiplayer sequels are anything to go by.
Look at Counter-Strike- the Source version had minute differences, but the overall game is identical; yet those minute differences seem exagerated to the fanboys/pros and they can't come to grips with Source.
(Okay- you could argue the Source netcode is absolutely awful and makes a huge difference- but it's a problem NS2 will face as it's moving to Source too)
If I were a developer I'd put 90% of my efforts into attracting new players to the game. Sure, the NS1 playerbase is a good playerbase (for an internet community, anyway- 13 months of downtime and we're still here!) but it's just too small- it's not worth the effort trying to please us.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with that to reach the market, the target audience of the Steam community and those who could potentially purchase NS2 from it, is important.
But I disagree that there is no value from the effort of trying to please us, the ones reading and replying to these forums. Satisfying past consumers builds consumer loyalty. Were you aware that with many products and services, if a customer is satisfied they often return to purchase new products from the same producers. It happens with favorite authors, cars, etc ... and it happens with games. How many of you are familiar with these names? Valve, Bioware, Blizzard... To name a few but we all know there are more where if we see the name on the game, it helps give us a reassurance that the product we purchase will be quality.
Unknown Worlds, with the NS1 mod built a pretty damn good bit of quality assurance. Honestly, just for all the free play time I received from them with NS1 I am going to purchase NS2 even if it is crap. What concerns me is that I don't want it to be crap so that I get Natural Selection novels, comics, action figures / models, movies... and sequels: NS3, NS4, NS Forever. As long as each iteration shows quality for my purchasing power, the have a very good chance of turning me into not just a hardcore player but a hardcore fan who will of my own free will make them very rich if at all possible with my fellow fans. Intellectual property, franchise, brand, trade mark - and more, I want Unknown Worlds to have it all, provided they continue to give me value for my purchasing power.
So, for all our sakes, I really do have to disagree with you, yet agree with you at the same time. I hope you understand.
I believe that NS would have been way, way bigger if it had come out earlier, too. CS was brought out (in craptastic form, too) in the very early days of mods. It became popular through word of mouth and blew up. But when NS came out, there were already a ton of mods out, and the majority of them were crap compared to CS or retail games.
IMO NS got lost in the clutter. Yes, many who play it don't do so for long, which goes for every game. But with NS, there are a whole lot that think its the best game ever made. With justification. If NS2 was a carbon copy with updated graphics and an actual marketing campaign (which comes hand in hand with retail releases), I think it would blow up.
<!--quoteo(post=1666175:date=Jan 3 2008, 02:02 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 3 2008, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666175"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If NS2 was a carbon copy with updated graphics and an actual marketing campaign (which comes hand in hand with retail releases), I think it would blow up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its not even a question. NS would've still been immensely successful if it had been picked up by a major company (yes, even microsoft lol).
<!--quoteo(post=1664715:date=Dec 20 2007, 10:11 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 20 2007, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please post comments on the topic Development Blog Update - <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2007/12/skulk_view_rotation_from_the_archives" target="_blank">Skulk view rotation, from the archives here</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i wanna see this skulk rotation is NS : Source. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Comments
sure it may have been a little "disorienting" at first, but for ######s sake, Portal is a little disorienting at first, and nobody gives a flying ######. you just get used to it, and then the game is AMAZING. just adjust the way you think about the fake world youre playing in, like you did to not get sick playing portals, and youll be fine.
i LOVED AvP 2 wall crawling, and it only facilitated awesome gameplay and subsequently 1000's of dead marines.
PLEASE PUT IN VIEW ROTATION FOR WALL CRAWLING! ill be ever so disappointed if you dont!
T_T
(seriously though, i understand youre working with a differant engine than they had for AvP 2...but how many years ago was that? i admit i dont know ###### about coding or programming, and maybe you cant...but if you got that close with HL 1... i feel like you could make it work what with all the advanced technology we have nowadays)
(and when i hear newb friendly it usually means more simple, which makes it no fun once the player becomes advanced. so if you do want to dumb it down for the masses (youre core fanbase?) then at least have the ability to make it more complex, rewarding, and FUN)...i.e., have wall crawling + rotating viewpoint + stick to walls easily
with a bad multiplayer section.
I said Shift key because thats the default key. Did you seriously not understand that? If the guy doesnt know about the functionality of the walk, i.e. +speed key, us telling him to 'just use the walk key' will obviously lead to another post of 'whats the walk key'.
Your next comment about 'lower class attitude' almost sounded like it made some sense (despite being offensive to them, a tactic you employ on purpose), but then you came out with your next retarded comment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, NS2 needs to be a HP battle. Forsake all skill, just turn it into a number crunching game.
HI I HAVE MORE HP THAN YOU, I WIN.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop being a goddamn tool. Video games are HP battles. Every freaking shooter ever made is an HP battle. NS *IS* a number crunching game; if they added 20 hp to the fade you'd probably rip all your hair out. Stop flamebaiting every thread in every forum.
If you want to actually discuss the topic of lessening the learning curve (and/or my approach to that, being a new more newb-friendly additional starting class), we'd all welcome it. Just do it in an actually mature way rather than this childish banter you're consistently pulling. And you wonder why people dislike you (and even 'elites' since you pretend you're our goddamn spokesman or something rather than just another tool we all look down on).
--> __/
rage
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I said Shift key because thats the default key. Did you seriously not understand that? If the guy doesnt know about the functionality of the walk, i.e. +speed key, us telling him to 'just use the walk key' will obviously lead to another post of 'whats the walk key'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It took me about 5 seconds to realize that you're talking about walk. I've always rebound my shift key in every game I played to duck. It was kind of automatic for me to assume that you're talking about duck.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your next comment about 'lower class attitude' almost sounded like it made some sense (despite being offensive to them, a tactic you employ on purpose), but then you came out with your next retarded comment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stop being a goddamn tool. Video games are HP battles. Every freaking shooter ever made is an HP battle. NS *IS* a number crunching game; if they added 20 hp to the fade you'd probably rip all your hair out. Stop flamebaiting every thread in every forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh because I thought that you could always win through better aiming/movement/map control/timing skills (I'm taking quake games here as an example when I say map control). I wasn't aware that every game was an HP battle, that's a striking realization.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want to actually discuss the topic of lessening the learning curve (and/or my approach to that, being a new more newb-friendly additional starting class), we'd all welcome it. Just do it in an actually mature way rather than this childish banter you're consistently pulling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like how you get worked up over me disagreeing with your idea. There is nothing I said aimed toward you which a sane person would consider inflammatory. Its a valid point and I'm shooting down ideas I think are stupid and am bringing up solid arguments.
You're leaning towards creating a tank alien which is meant to do nothing but soak bullets. Since its slow, that'd throw all aiming skills out of the window. And if there is no aiming involved then what traits will set the better players apart from newer players when killing it? Its a huge step back in online competition.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you wonder why people dislike you (and even 'elites' since you pretend you're our goddamn spokesman or something rather than just another tool we all look down on).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cute. It looks like your text is steaming with rage, its almost coming out of my monitor. You have many personality issues.
A) Do I really wonder why people dislike me?
B) I never knew you were an 'elite', I always thought you were just a terrible, unpopular map maker
C) Start naming people who you include in your "WE". Is it a unnamed NWO conspiracy group of elite ns players? Do you even have any e-friends?
The only other game I know on the Source engine right now that has a potentially disorienting camera feature is Dystopia. In its Cyberspace you can look up or down with no limitation, meaning you can look up until the floor is above you (ie: turn upside down). It can certainly be disorienting, but it has helped me in many battles and adds a fun perspective. Not to mention it already changes camera based on your current "floor" in Cyberspace. That is of course different from what the Skulk's camera functions will be, but I'm sure things can be learned from that implementation.
On the other hand, I'd really hate if it were implemented as an option. Naturally no one will be comfortable with it at first, so players who don't accept change well are hardly going to even try it. There will be the common thought that a steady camera is more advantageous and thus the stylish view will barely even be used, making its implementation somewhat wasted and cause problems between those who just wanna have fun and those who could care less about the means to kill and win.
<!--quoteo(post=1665392:date=Dec 28 2007, 10:02 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Dec 28 2007, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so. you either <i>[...]</i> or perhaps you choose something else as the 'starting class' and have the skulk become an early evolution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or, i'll add to that, a second optional (more newbie-friendly) class, i think i've mentioned this in another thread or two before
i actually think they should <b>try</b> gorge as the starting class (maybe kick up its ranged attack weapon) - anyway, fiction-wise, gorge is the... progenitor of the alien buildings, so why not the other alien lifeforms too?
but, i'll give your thread a read in a moment, and maybe reply to that thread
<!--quoteo(post=1665546:date=Dec 29 2007, 11:02 AM:name=TerraGamerX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TerraGamerX @ Dec 29 2007, 11:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other hand, I'd really hate if it were implemented as an option. Naturally no one will be comfortable with it at first, so players who don't accept change well are hardly going to even try it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. And everyone's experience as a skulk would be different - there'd be no uniformity. And how would that go for reviewers? I think by leaving the choice up to players, that suggests the devs weren't able to make the choice themselves, and that's suggestive of their competency.
<!--quoteo(post=1665546:date=Dec 29 2007, 11:02 AM:name=TerraGamerX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TerraGamerX @ Dec 29 2007, 11:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There will be the common thought that a steady camera is more advantageous and thus the stylish view will barely even be used, making its implementation somewhat wasted and cause problems between those who just wanna have fun and those who could care less about the means to kill and win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I foresee a split of opinion and a new excuse for noob-bashing, that is, if you don't use the 'more elite' view rotation option, you're a noob even if you're still making kills. Or something of that variety.. Yeah, I'm pessimistic.
So basically, no option. It's either one or the other. Leave that up to the devs to test and decide. So rather than argue about whether view rotation is a good idea or not, or making it an option; let's think about how it might be best implemented. Things already discussed would be unique 'ceiling terrain' like tubes, lights, infestation that drips 'up', an arrow pointing true down, making the arrow part of the crosshair. And implications - the skulk may become an even more advanced class, with a steeper learning curve - how might you fix that?
on a sidenote, say view rotation is implemented, i'd like to see a mod/custom maps, where marines would have like uh.. magnetic shoes, or something. wall-walking for marines, ###### yeah.
i actually think they should <b>try</b> gorge as the starting class (maybe kick up its ranged attack weapon) - anyway, fiction-wise, gorge is the... progenitor of the alien buildings, so why not the other alien lifeforms too?
</snip><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looking back, it seems that the current "skulk as base class" originated when it was a one gorge game. This could very well be a good idea. Mix this idea with an alien commando and I'm going way off topic.
The skulk may be representative of the alienness of the Kharaa team - so newer players, they get the picture - it's part of the first-time experience, the immersion; but it is precisely because of this that it's hardly accessible to newer players.
If only you could get new players to spectate the obligatory match before they're allowed to jump into the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
(No, I'm not serious, that's a horrible idea.)
Are you serious? Gorges heal, have more hit points, and have some serious ranged combat with adrenaline or even speed with celerity or longevity with carapace / more healing.
Then mix that all together with a pack of those against marines with just LMGs? I take it you haven't ever seen the Gorge Rush, which has been put to music in a gaming video or two for the enjoyment of all.
In my NS1 gaming experience, I have seen a pair of skulks die easier than a pair of gorges. So I have you ask, are you serious?
I think I may have been a little unclear in the last paragraph of the blog. I didn't mean specifically I was excited about view rotation (whether or not we even try it is still up in the air), but rather unique movement abilities in general. One of the things I enjoyed the most about working on Natural Selection was revising the Lerk flight for 2.0. We really wanted to give the player the sense of being a winged creature so we added the flapping/gliding mechanism. Some of the other movement abilities we could never quite get to work the way we wanted due to issues with the code or limitations of the collision detection functions on the client and server. A good example is the original Fade blink, where we couldn't fix the problem of getting stuck in walls so we had to redesign the ability to work differently.
So essentially what I meant was I'm looking forward to talking these abilities to the next level of awesomeness. Obviously the movement design/code is a big thing that contributes to the "feel" of the game and is something that I think really sets Natural Selection apart from other games, so that should be getting a lot of attention in NS2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then mix that all together with a pack of those against marines with just LMGs? I take it you haven't ever seen the Gorge Rush, which has been put to music in a gaming video or two for the enjoyment of all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If an entire team can organize to do anything it doesn't matter what class they use. Skulk rushes used to be very effective too, but now marines are wise enough to stay back in the base for a bit.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my NS1 gaming experience, I have seen a pair of skulks die easier than a pair of gorges. So I have you ask, are you serious?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Skulks don't attack from the front, but gorges do. I sure hope those skulks weren't disadvantaged somehow?
After playing the Alien games, the feature was useful for climbing in vents and so on, but it make it extreamly hard to know how you would leap and attack a marine or something.
<!--quoteo(post=1665661:date=Dec 30 2007, 11:44 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 30 2007, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I may have been a little unclear in the last paragraph of the blog. I didn't mean specifically I was excited about view rotation (whether or not we even try it is still up in the air), but rather unique movement abilities in general. One of the things I enjoyed the most about working on Natural Selection was revising the Lerk flight for 2.0. We really wanted to give the player the sense of being a winged creature so we added the flapping/gliding mechanism. Some of the other movement abilities we could never quite get to work the way we wanted due to issues with the code or limitations of the collision detection functions on the client and server. A good example is the original Fade blink, where we couldn't fix the problem of getting stuck in walls so we had to redesign the ability to work differently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Making all the creatures different in certain ways was a very good idea, i liked toe lerks flight ability, but at times it didn't seem sturdy enough like gliding downwards on an angle wasn't really fast enough, as well as the lurk didn't get fast enough while gliding down over a period of time; perhaps the lerk should be able to go at any speed when gliding downwards but it takes a long time without cerelity (spelling of speed skill)
The fades blink was almost an identical copy of the skulks leap, only it had more balance and was a lot smoother.
<!--quoteo(post=1665661:date=Dec 30 2007, 11:44 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 30 2007, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So essentially what I meant was I'm looking forward to talking these abilities to the next level of awesomeness. Obviously the movement design/code is a big thing that contributes to the "feel" of the game and is something that I think really sets Natural Selection apart from other games, so that should be getting a lot of attention in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In most games i've played, all of the creatures movement animation/types were basically the same only had different speeds/energy usage and so on, NS has a very good variety of movement types like the lerk's flight and the skulk wall walking ability.
I'm glad to see developers that like to be creative with everything, not just make a game where their are 2 different types of 1 model, take Gears of War for example, the Locust Grunt and the Humans for example (the same)
Then mix that all together with a pack of those against marines with just LMGs? I take it you haven't ever seen the Gorge Rush, which has been put to music in a gaming video or two for the enjoyment of all.
In my NS1 gaming experience, I have seen a pair of skulks die easier than a pair of gorges. So I have you ask, are you serious?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I take it you haven't seen one good shotgunner paired with one good commander. Gorges as an offensive class are a joke. Their massive tanking ability makes them a bit overpowered though, imo.
edit: In my NS1 experience, I have seen pubbers get raped by clanners.
What's your point?
that is the problem its slow you down, its need to by hold
that make you a easy target
make that, that you only need to press it, not to hold
and i will not WALK
this is never used and most skulks run on the floor, not on the walls
that make it for newbies easyer to be better
and to distopia, it would be cool but its decrease the orientation
the system is fine. but plz make that
edit: In my NS1 experience, I have seen pubbers get raped by clanners.
What's your point?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh I've seen that, but it doesn't change a that a shotgun in the right hands is going to hurt everything up to even fades, so its hardly a good example. We are talking about a starting life form that works well for new players to the Natural Selection game experience, yes? So let me list you more than one point here:
- In a new players experience for First Person Shooters, what is more likely, that they have played wall walking, melee, low hit points before, or that they have fired a weapon at an opponent before?
- New players are often recognized by being straight line running, front side charging, and most likely to die as a skulk. As a gorge, using ranged combat and healing, using cover is something most FPS players have done before.
- Higher hit points and the ability to heal can prove good tools for a chance not to be an insta-gib and actually learn something from your new NS2 combat experiences against the Marines.
- Just about any chamber in the early game makes sense for a gorge, one strategy can be just as viable as the others. Also, seeing as this is NS2, who is to say chambers will be the same chained to hive as in NS1?
As well, ideas have been put forward that would make going skulk for those who want to easy enough, hardly an issue there, we are just talking about the default spawning life form, which, if some ideas on spawning are observed, may not even be an issue in NS2, you could spawn as whatever or where-ever you want possibly, it would just be something that comes up for those not recognizing they even have a choice in the matter yet.
On top of that, we're not sure exactly what a Kharaa Commander entails, so do gorges still drop chambers?
And something I just thought of, if the "training" wheels were really necessary, couldn't you let a gorge wall walk until their energy runs out or something? Wall walking isn't such a foreign concept to gamers, its the being thrown in the thick of it FPV with melee instead of ranged combat that gets most new players a bit out of sorts and dying just a little bit too much for the overall enjoyment and first impression of the game.
Most FPS games treat melee as a last resort option, where ammo has all but ran out - or it is used to humiliate other players. Not surprisingly most players probably don't melee as often as is required by a skulk, it does require a different kind of game play than most are used to - I wouldn't be surprised if those who like playing things like Spy class in Team Fortress 2 are the ones who take to the Skulk the quickest, and many a TF2 Spy will admit it is not the easiest way to play.
You know when you are driving so fast in need for speed (for exemple) that the view gets a little distorced to give us a speed feeling? I was thinking in something like that.. a distorcion giving us the direction of the floor..
I believe view rotation will always be a bit disorienting then you are not used to it, but as you get used to it, it will stop being disorienting. This is ofcourse, if the feature itself is good enough, cause the snapping of views can always disorient you, if you haven't really though about how your view will rotate beofre the jump.
What I'm trying to say is, I would love if you got view rotation to work with as little feel of snapping as possible. And don't give up the view rotation to early, it takes atleast a couple of hours to get used to it, so if you decide to try it in NS 2, test it throughout before you dismiss it, if you do. An effective view rotation will increase the tactical effect of walls and ceilings.
Regards
Fluid Core
The thing is; if NS or NS2 has a learning curve that is more difficult. Why don't we have some 'tutorial map' ?
It can be done for a lot of classes and things like evolving and test upgrades.
-Skulk : wall walking, upgrading (cloak / celerity etc.)
-Gorge : learning how to build and use OCs and chambers.
-Marins : building, welding (+closing vent), JP flying etc.
It can be quite good. Using RCbots is a common thing on some servers. Using a bot ot enhance the map scenario is a thing that can be handled.
For example a gorge has to learn how to build and place an OC. Using marins bots can help learning some little things like; how much time it takes for an oc to kill a marin? how to place the OC in a way that makes it pretty efficient etc...
I don't know if the devs have explicitly stated wall jumping/vaulting is going in NS2 but it is something that they liked and had wanted to get in NS1 earlier. I would think if they could, they would implement it in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1665378:date=Dec 27 2007, 06:12 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Dec 27 2007, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think NS2 can't handle view rotation. IMO the maps of NS are already the most complicated in practically any game. Skulks need to learn the hiding spots all over every map, and more than half of them are off the floor.
If the players already knew the maps well, the view rotation could be cool. But when players dont know the maps, the view rotation will hinder their ability to learn, and badly. Its hard enough learning the ceilings of maps (especially almost no other game requires this so it seems so different), but add in a completely view realignment and suddenly the player is overwhelmed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a pretty good point. Learning an NS map can be pretty difficult. If my view it was changing it would be like learning the map 4 times over for me. I think this is done well enough implicitly through wallwalking now.
<!--quoteo(post=1665392:date=Dec 27 2007, 08:02 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Dec 27 2007, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 needs new players, it can't rely on the hardcore fanboys with biased views and elitist attitudes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, but it can't rely on new players either. It needs a mix of both. If the devs can create a game that keeps most of the fanboys/community and attracts new players that would be ideal. To use a common phrase "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater". Still If a game were created that only satisfied the community who liked NS1, UW would be left with a very small audience.
There's also a saying in literary circles about "killing your baby". Regardless of how much you like a paragraph or game feature or whatever we're talking about, if it wont feed you: kill it.
Look at Counter-Strike- the Source version had minute differences, but the overall game is identical; yet those minute differences seem exagerated to the fanboys/pros and they can't come to grips with Source.
(Okay- you could argue the Source netcode is absolutely awful and makes a huge difference- but it's a problem NS2 will face as it's moving to Source too)
If I were a developer I'd put 90% of my efforts into attracting new players to the game. Sure, the NS1 playerbase is a good playerbase (for an internet community, anyway- 13 months of downtime and we're still here!) but it's just too small- it's not worth the effort trying to please us.
Look at Counter-Strike- the Source version had minute differences, but the overall game is identical; yet those minute differences seem exagerated to the fanboys/pros and they can't come to grips with Source.
(Okay- you could argue the Source netcode is absolutely awful and makes a huge difference- but it's a problem NS2 will face as it's moving to Source too)
If I were a developer I'd put 90% of my efforts into attracting new players to the game. Sure, the NS1 playerbase is a good playerbase (for an internet community, anyway- 13 months of downtime and we're still here!) but it's just too small- it's not worth the effort trying to please us.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with that to reach the market, the target audience of the Steam community and those who could potentially purchase NS2 from it, is important.
But I disagree that there is no value from the effort of trying to please us, the ones reading and replying to these forums. Satisfying past consumers builds consumer loyalty. Were you aware that with many products and services, if a customer is satisfied they often return to purchase new products from the same producers. It happens with favorite authors, cars, etc ... and it happens with games. How many of you are familiar with these names? Valve, Bioware, Blizzard... To name a few but we all know there are more where if we see the name on the game, it helps give us a reassurance that the product we purchase will be quality.
Unknown Worlds, with the NS1 mod built a pretty damn good bit of quality assurance. Honestly, just for all the free play time I received from them with NS1 I am going to purchase NS2 even if it is crap. What concerns me is that I don't want it to be crap so that I get Natural Selection novels, comics, action figures / models, movies... and sequels: NS3, NS4, NS Forever. As long as each iteration shows quality for my purchasing power, the have a very good chance of turning me into not just a hardcore player but a hardcore fan who will of my own free will make them very rich if at all possible with my fellow fans. Intellectual property, franchise, brand, trade mark - and more, I want Unknown Worlds to have it all, provided they continue to give me value for my purchasing power.
So, for all our sakes, I really do have to disagree with you, yet agree with you at the same time. I hope you understand.
IMO NS got lost in the clutter. Yes, many who play it don't do so for long, which goes for every game. But with NS, there are a whole lot that think its the best game ever made. With justification. If NS2 was a carbon copy with updated graphics and an actual marketing campaign (which comes hand in hand with retail releases), I think it would blow up.
Its not even a question. NS would've still been immensely successful if it had been picked up by a major company (yes, even microsoft lol).
i wanna see this skulk rotation is NS : Source. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />